High-Resolution Downloads to die for…

[firedog]

 

Just make sure to get the 24/96 "Studio Master" download and not the 24/88.2 downsampling from the upsampled DSD/SACD - the difference is noticeable!

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

How do we know this isn't from the same DSD transcription that the HDTracks version is from? Are you sure there were PCM and DSD masters transcribed from the original analogue?

[acousticsguru]

Aloha David,

 

I remembered I cried the first time I heard the Previn/Rachmaninoff 2, which was about 30 years ago. I borrowed the record from the library and it has been my favorite Rachmaninoff 2 since. I also like the Beethoven 5/Kleiber--in fact, I have the 24/88 download. But where did you get the 24/96 studio masters for both of these excellent recordings? Maybe they're not available in the US.

 

Thanks,

Nealsons

 

Several sites carry the Kleiber 24/96 "Studio Master", least expensive (that I've found anyway) at qobuz, who may currently be the only ones to offer Previn's Rachmaninoff "Studio Master":

 

Beethoven: Symphonies Nos. 5 & 7 | Ludwig van Beethoven par Interprètes Divers - Télécharger et écouter l'album

 

and:

 

Rachmaninov: Symphony No. 2 | Serge Rachmaninov par André Previn - Télécharger et écouter l'album

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[acousticsguru]

How do we know this isn't from the same DSD transcription that the HDTracks version is from? Are you sure there were PCM and DSD masters transcribed from the original analogue?

 

No, my point was/is, I'm pretty sure there weren't. According to the SACD's own liner notes, the analogue was converted into 24/96. The DSD is but an upsampling of the 24/96 (non-integer as one will notice). It first came out as a 24/96 DVD-A, downsampled to redbook as DG Originals CD, and only later as SACD. DG (or rather Emil Berliner Studios) never appear to have re-digitized the analogue master since that first 24/96 master for DVD-A (long out of print). Search the net, you'll find more information about this, if partly in German.

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[acousticsguru]

How do we know this isn't from the same DSD transcription that the HDTracks version is from? Are you sure there were PCM and DSD masters transcribed from the original analogue?

 

I'm digressing, but to avoid misunderstanding, please note I'm not against non-integer upsampling per se - on the contrary, my dCS Purcell does just that with all my red-book CDs (or 88.2 kS/s downloads, or anything else I want to use it for, for that matter). As a matter of fact, I've always preferred non-integer upsampling to 192 kS/s to e.g. 176.4 for sonic reasons, even to DSD, and I'm not alone in this. The Purcell is the one piece of digital gear that has totally changed my perception of 16/44.1 redbook as the immense problem It once was to me (apart from the improved sound quality, I've suffered from migraine since my teenage years - migraine can be triggered by glaring light, piercing noise etc. - it's become a matter of seconds to me to tell if music sounds "digital", or if I can listen to it for hours without suffering).

 

(It's entirely possible the studio version dCS 972 was used in the process, by the way, many studios' up- and downsampling "Swiss Army Knife" at the time.)

 

The point I was trying to make on the Beethoven/Kleiber downloads, apart from the fact that the sound is so different you might as well ignore what I'm going to say next, is that I find it counter-intuitive to digitize an analogue master tape to 24/96 PCM, upsample the digital master non-integer to DSD, then downsample the DSD to 24/88.2 PCM when all along, there would have been a 24/96 PCM original available. To reiterate, this might all be thought of as irrelevant if the original 24/96 didn't sound so much better to begin with.

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[acousticsguru]

How do we know this isn't from the same DSD transcription that the HDTracks version is from? Are you sure there were PCM and DSD masters transcribed from the original analogue?

 

 

By the way, not sure if you've seen this:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f13-audiophile-downloads/carlos-kleiber-beethoven-24-96-studio-master-vs-24-88-2-download-15848/

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[acousticsguru]

Hyperion 67923 is a 24/96 recording of Schumann duos for different instruments with piano: oboe & piano; horn & piano; clarinet & piano; viola & piano.

 

Often these pieces are transcribed for other instruments, but these are the instruments for which Schumann originally wrote them.

 

My favorite is the Romances op 94 for oboe & piano, followed closely by the Fantasiestücke op 73 for clarinet & piano.

 

The performers are current members of the Nash Ensemble.

 

Thank you! You're also reminding me of something: do you happen to know the fantastic-sounding analogue recordings by David Wilson of Wilson Audiophile? One of them, from 1991, was of Schumann's Fantasy Pieces for Clarinet and Piano Op. 73, by Charles West and Susan Grace. What this reminds me of is that I hope someone at Wilson Audio might turn their mind to master those analogue tapes to HiRes digital (maybe starting with the Francesco Trio's 1988 recording of Dvorák's "Dumky" Trio). Since I'm at it, what I'd want from Hyperion, if possible, would be e.g. Demidenko's Liszt and Hamelin's Alkan. But let's not get into a wish-list here - that would result into a near-endless thread with my contributions alone…

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[woodford]

weird, the price is shown in US $$$, but they won't let me download from the US.

[vdorta]

Both Kleibers' (father and son) 5ths and the Reader's Digest original (blue and white) complete set by Leibowitz are my top desert island recordings. I agree somebody should make the Leibowitz set available for download.

[pawsman]

acousticsguru,

I enjoyed Samson Francois' recording of Ravels complete piano music on an old Seraphim LP box set years ago, and now have

the EMI CDs. His performance of Jeux d'eau is the best I've heard (just a crystalline, perfect sound for this piece) and Gaspard is also (along with Argerich and the new Ben Grosvenor on Decca). I noticed Francois' performance of the Chopin Etudes, Nocturnes and Preludes is now available on HDT, with new 96/24 mastering; have you heard them? I'd be interested in hearing opinions about these recordings. Also noticed the Gyorgy Cziffra's recordings of the Liszt Rhapsodies 1-17, and the Transcendental Etudes are available on HDT in a 96/24 remastering. He's probably the best Liszt pianist of all time, I wonder if you've heard these as well? On another note, I was amazed to see that the complete Solti "Ring" is also available, albeit in 48/24 only.

 

pawsman

[Snowmonkey]

I noticed Francois' performance of the Chopin Etudes, Nocturnes and Preludes is now available on HDT, with new 96/24 mastering; have you heard them? I'd be interested in hearing opinions about these recordings.

I'd be interested too. I have been considering purchasing Francois' collected recordings from Qobuz (available in CD quality) and I am wondering if these higher res files significantly enhance the sound quality.

[Robert Hutton]

I'd be interested too. I have been considering purchasing Francois' collected recordings from Qobuz (available in CD quality) and I am wondering if these higher res files significantly enhance the sound quality.

 

These EMI 24/96 remasterings were done at Abbey Road in 2011 for Toshiba EMI, and were released in Japan initially as hybrid SACD's with the DSD layer derived from the 24/96 files. Some of the usual philistines will scream that Cedar noise reduction was applied to varying degrees and an effort was made to generally 'clean them up' by fixing the odd bad edit, and other spurious flaws.

 

I have quite a few of those hybrids as well as many that were later released as only single layer SACDs, as well as a number of the 24/96 files (which are starting to appear on various DL services in increasing number). I have the Samson Francois Chopin Nocturnes and earlier Etudes in DSD as well as the Cziffra Liszt in the original 24/96. Both are very good, as are virtually all these remasters. But with some reservations worth noting. First, they do not sound like the original UK vinyl, which was warm, fluid and tonally beautiful. These are somewhat more clinical, have great frequency range, lack a bit in air and depth, and second - in my opinion show traces of what from my knowledge is a not so great mastering chain at Abbey Road and the effect of only taking a 96k sampling. They could have been better, but the fact is they probably never will be and there is no point in wishing or complaining, they are on their own terms quite good, very enjoyable, very valid and the music is phenomenal.

[Snowmonkey]

Thank you very much for the info. I notice that the vast bulk of the tracks on the Qobuz collection are designated as "Re-mastered 2010". I wonder if that is the 24/96 re-mastering that you refer to. It seems strange that EMI would bother to re-master such a large body of work twice in such a short time.

Either way, the price is pretty compelling (~$US 92 for the 36 disc set). It sounds very good on preview and as you say, the music is phenomonal. I am inclined to purchase the set and possibly pick up individual high-res releases as they come available.

[pawsman]

Snowmonkey,

Where did you see the EMI 36 disc set for $92? For that price I'll buy the Hybrid SACDs and forget about the downloads. Thanks-

 

pawsman

[Snowmonkey]

pawsman,

 

I hope my post wasn't misleading. What Qobuz is offering is CD quality files representing the contents of 36 CD's (the complete recorded works of Samson Francois).

 

Intégrale de ses enregistrements | Samson Francois par Samson Francois - Télécharger et écouter l'album

[acousticsguru]

These EMI 24/96 remasterings were done at Abbey Road in 2011 for Toshiba EMI, and were released in Japan initially as hybrid SACD's with the DSD layer derived from the 24/96 files. Some of the usual philistines will scream that Cedar noise reduction was applied to varying degrees and an effort was made to generally 'clean them up' by fixing the odd bad edit, and other spurious flaws.

 

I have quite a few of those hybrids as well as many that were later released as only single layer SACDs, as well as a number of the 24/96 files (which are starting to appear on various DL services in increasing number). I have the Samson Francois Chopin Nocturnes and earlier Etudes in DSD as well as the Cziffra Liszt in the original 24/96. Both are very good, as are virtually all these remasters. But with some reservations worth noting. First, they do not sound like the original UK vinyl, which was warm, fluid and tonally beautiful. These are somewhat more clinical, have great frequency range, lack a bit in air and depth, and second - in my opinion show traces of what from my knowledge is a not so great mastering chain at Abbey Road and the effect of only taking a 96k sampling. They could have been better, but the fact is they probably never will be and there is no point in wishing or complaining, they are on their own terms quite good, very enjoyable, very valid and the music is phenomenal.

 

I agree with Robert that if these are the performances of Chopin's Etudes, Nocturnes and Preludes, or Cziffra's Liszt, these 24/96 "Studio Master" downloads are in all likelihood the best we'll ever get of each recording, respectively.

 

Because they're well-done but perhaps not "perfect" from an audiophile perspective, I'll limit myself to buying exclusively those that matter to me from a musical perspective. I'd buy e.g. Francois's Gaspard and Jeux d'Eaux in a heartbeat.

 

But I have several other favorite recordings of especially all the Chopin, even the Liszt items. If, for example, Supraphon made Ivan Moravec's Chopin Noturnes available as high-resolution download, I'd really want those.

 

Even though I'm an audiophile, it's the music (and when it comes to classical, interpretation thereof) that matters to me most - I know my taste well enough to know I'll not listen to a recording mainly (let alone only) because it comes in high-resolution. My whole system is built to enable the finest redbook CD playback possible for precisely this reason.

 

Thus I'd prefer to leave comments on the above recordings to those who love them more than I do. I merely happen to find them highly respectable and as such a worthy addition to any serious classical buff's collection. But I rarely if ever return to them myself. Needless to emphasize, the point of this thread, to me, is that everyone may point out recordings they return to with regularity.

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[pawsman]

Thanks to Robert, snowmonkey and acousticsguru for the quick answers. I'll probably do some selective downloads of these titles, and as you say, it's probably the best sound we'll ever get, so no reason to wait. I'm a "Music first" guy also, but I really want to have great performances AND great sound (don't we all?). I still remember listening to the Cziffra/Liszt transcendental etudes on an old Angel mono LP years ago, wishing I could hear them with better sound quality; same for the Francois/Ravel. Now's my chance-

 

pawsman

[wisnon]

Heil's Air Motion Transformer is a fascinating driver. The concept is really quite old, I've known it since I started building loudspeakers as a teenager. The real crux building loudspeakers is not (no longer) the availability of high-tech drivers, but achieving an overall coherent sound reproduction, that is, resonance-free frequency response, rise and settling time, time and phase linearity across the whole spectrum (ideally beyond). As far as integrating it into a concept taking into account all of the afore-mentioned, it is hardly surprising one rarely sees it applied using its full theoretical frequency response anymore. Also, whether or not the AMT is particularly suited to the reproduction of classical music is debatable. But we're digressing.

 

More in keeping with the thread subject, the problem of high-resolution formats, including SACD/DSD, is that literally, 99.9% of the music true "classical buffs" cherish, is unavailable in any such lofty format - as a matter of fact, much of it is unavailable in any format worth listening to.

 

My personally compiled list of classical recordings worth investigating (originally started as a "favourites" list for an inquisitive friend of mine) is currently 216 pages long (at roughly one entry per line, between 50'000 and 75'000 entries). It's depressing to see how little of it is available in any digital high-resolution format.

 

Also, I've yet to be convinced that DSD should be considered the ideal format. As one violin maker once told me, one must wonder why the industry keeps insisting on digital formats using 44.1 kS/s sample frequency multiples - a mystery understandably to anyone who spent a lifetime perfecting their secret varnish recipes trying to attenuate if not suppress "ugly-sounding" resonances and their dividers and multiples.

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

David,

 

I can tell you that the Lampizator Dac maker felt similarly to your post above and then when I encouraged him to design a DSD Dac and he heard his prototype!!!! Complete change of midst. Dont confuse SACD with DSD. Many masters of all formats are now stored as bitstream files!!!

[acousticsguru]

Available in 24/192.

 

(Amarra is having a friendly day and playing back three-digit sampling rate files glitch-free - or almost…)

 

Resolution, warmth, body, presence - as fine a jazz recording as one can find, especially of course for the era. Admittedly, there's a bit a more of a ping-pong effect to the microphone placement compared to e.g. the famous "Jazz at the Pawnshop" (not the same depth, nor even width, to the sound stage, a noticeably closer perspective), but in turn the audience noises are less intrusive. It's not really a fair comparison, I mean, what you get here is Bill Evans, Scott LaFaro and Paul Motian at their best, and not merely an audiophile recording that would hardly be on anyone's short list if it were not for the sound quality (and it's not that I don't like Arne Domnérus et al. - on the contrary, "Jazz at the Pawnshop" is perfectly fine for what it is). This, in contrast, is legendary for a combination of excellent reasons, and has never sounded better.

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[acousticsguru]

Available in 24/192.

 

(Amarra is having a friendly day and playing back three-digit sampling rate files glitch-free - or almost…)

 

I've been somewhat miffed with the compressed "loudness war" remasterings of some famous rock/pop albums in recent years, but am happy with the realism and sheer sense of intimacy one gets here. Not much to add regarding the musical content I guess.

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[acousticsguru]

Available in 24/192 (except for a couple of tracks that come in 24/96).

 

(Amarra is having a friendly day and playing back three-digit sampling rate files glitch-free - or almost…)

 

Speaking of intimacy, this rates in the "I can't believe it" category. It sounds as if I'd travelled straight to Jamaica, someone pulled the original master tape out of their vault, put it on a perfectly tweaked reel-to-reel tape recorder, and played it just for me, grinning broadly, rolling a spliff whilst I'm sitting there speechless. What the…?! Music I've known virtually all my life, which I didn't even know could sound so well… Seriously, it's as if the man stood right here in front of me!

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[acousticsguru]

Available in 24/192, in two volumes.

 

(Amarra is having a friendly day and playing back three-digit sampling rate files glitch-free - or almost…)

 

How lucky and blessed we are microphones were put up those three days in April 1960 in Göteborg and Stockholm, and that this was recorded. The music, the music-making, the sound, oh my… It's as if one leapt right into it headfirst.

 

Admittedly, the sound "stage" is forward (little depth, typical multi-channel use of microphones, but note the phase linearity is still better than in most recordings of the period, let alone later), Milt Jackson's vibraphone occasionally drives its microphone(s) into (near-)overload, and John Lewis's piano sounds a bit boxy (in addition to dry, which however is something they did on purpose, so it would contrast with the vibraphone - to say little or no use of pedal would be an understatement, not sure what exactly they did to that piano to achieve this sound, but from an artistic point of view, it makes perfect sense).

 

I'll admit I'm a sucker for live concerts (the atmosphere, the sense of being there), even so, I'm not sure this isn't simply the most engaging jazz high-resolution download money can buy. If this won't make you tap your toes, consult a doctor asap. Sure brings tears to my eyes, it's so damn beautiful…

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[Snowmonkey]

Strange. The Modern Jazz Quartet European Concert, Volumes 1 & 2 (24/192) are available form Qobuz for €20.98 each (€41.96 for the two albums), but the tracks are available for individual download for €1.49 each, which comes to €22.35 for the 15 tracks on the two albums.

[alainbil]

I have this record (red book CD), and to my hears the orchestra sounds like an orchestra recorded by EMI in the late 50's, namely with a vague relation to the sound of a real orchestra.

For a while this was one of the reference CD I brought with me each time I went for a demo at my hifi dealer shop. I am now convinced that it sounds mediocre on all systems.

[acousticsguru]

I have this record (red book CD), and to my hears the orchestra sounds like an orchestra recorded by EMI in the late 50's, namely with a vague relation to the sound of a real orchestra.

For a while this was one of the reference CD I brought with me each time I went for a demo at my hifi dealer shop. I am now convinced that it sounds mediocre on all systems.

 

Which EMI recording are you referring to, the Rachmaninoff/Previn?

 

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

[alainbil]

Never hear this Rachmaninoff/Previn. But I remember an atrocious Carlo Maria Giulini / Claudio Arrau Brahms Piano Concertos (I sold it) and some dreaful Brigitte Fassbaender , all on EMI.