SACD Player For Reading/downloading DSD

[soundhd]

Hope this is the right forum section for asking this question. Looking to get into "computer" based high end audio. Have been a "audiophile" for a long time (still listen to vinyl along with Redbook CD's and SACD's).

One of the reasons for wanting to set up a NAS based music system (other then the ability to access any file from anywhere in the house) is to get access to the high resolution DSD type music files. I do understand that I will need to get a DAC that can de-code DSD type files.

My question is I own a Phillips SACD-1 SACD player. Will that unit be good enough to feed a DSD DAC through one of the digital outputs (it has the optical and the standard RCA type digital outputs)?

 

thanks

[mav52]

Sure. But check out this article. Philips SACD1000 SACD/DVD-Video player Measurements | Stereophile.com

[Robert Hutton]

Sure. But check out this article. Philips SACD1000 SACD/DVD-Video player Measurements | Stereophile.com

 

There are no SACD players that output the DSD data to an external DAC. The digital outputs on a SACD player are for output of redbook CD digital only.

[soundhd]

Thanks for the replies........since I just started looking into DSD..... how does one get a DSD signal to a stereo system?.........guess I am sort of confused about the DSD thing...from I have read....one gets a DSD signal from a SACD...or is this not the case?

 

 

thanks

 

 

 

There are no SACD players that output the DSD data to an external DAC. The digital outputs on a SACD player are for output of redbook CD digital only.

[Kal Rubinson]

Thanks for the replies........since I just started looking into DSD..... how does one get a DSD signal to a stereo system?.........guess I am sort of confused about the DSD thing...from I have read....one gets a DSD signal from a SACD...or is this not the case?

With consumer products, only via HDMI with its inherent HDCP copy protection. The only effective way to get DSD to your DAC is from a computer/server with DSD files that you have bought/downloaded.

[edorr]

Thanks for the replies........since I just started looking into DSD..... how does one get a DSD signal to a stereo system?.........guess I am sort of confused about the DSD thing...from I have read....one gets a DSD signal from a SACD...or is this not the case?

 

 

thanks

 

Read up on "SACD ripping" using an old Sony Playstation 3. SACD ripping is not for the faint of heart, and considering the near complete lack of other readily available DSD content, the whole infatuation with DSD Dacs and native DSD playback totally befuddles me. Others see it differently and much has been said about this as well, so read up on the subject on this site if you're interested.

[edorr]

With consumer products, only via HDMI with its inherent HDCP copy protection. The only effective way to get DSD to your DAC is from a computer/server with DSD files that you have bought/downloaded.

 

I suspect the vast majority of DSD content in circulation is not bought/downloaded but ripped from SACD.

[Sherwood]

I suspect the vast majority of DSD content in circulation is not bought/downloaded but ripped from SACD.

 

That is almost certainly true.

 

Soundhd, to play the SACDs you own through a DSD DAC, you will need to first rip the data off of them. Currently, that process can only be completed with the use of an old Sony PS3 (that is capable of playing SACDs, and still using and old firmware version). There are excellent guides on how to do this, and our own Ted_b can only be described as a luminary in this field, but even he would admit that it's an arduous labor of love.

 

If modifying a PS3, carefully ripping discs, and streaming these to your DAC from a computer sound interesting to you, there is no better digital to be had. If not, you're limited to a small collection of excellent-sounding music available as a DSD download.

[ted_b]

Soundhd, I just sent you some reading material (i.e my guide and links) via PM. Lemme know if you have questions. But yes, the only way to get DSD music right now is:

1) through a few download sites (Premonition Records being the latest, offering a Patricia Barber...ironically even though the darn thing was recorded in 24/96!! Argh!! Send us the native PCM!!!) or

2) through the process my guide walks you through (i.e ripping your personal SACD library with a hacked SACD-compatible PS3).

 

By the way, my guide, and many other much-more-interesting DSD articles, etc are now in our DSD database doc on google docs

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgVhKcl_3lHfdFVyenBBNjNpQ2lieG81WGpqQTNfVUE#gid=0

[edorr]

Another hackers approach to high rez audio is to get an Oppo 93 and install a vanity93 digital out board in it. This board will circumvent the HDMI license restictions and convert your DSD / SACD discs to 176/24 LPCM using a proprietary conversion algorithm and reclocking (resulting in a far superior signal than what Oppo sends out over HDMI) and output it over coax digital (S/PDIF). If you run this into a 196/24 capable DAC you will get VERY good high rez digital playback, and don't have to worry about ripping and/or getting a DSD capable DAC.

[ted_b]

Another hackers approach to high rez audio is to get an Oppo 93 and install a vanity93 digital out board in it. This board will circumvent the HDMI license restictions and convert your DSD / SACD discs to 176/24 LPCM using a proprietary conversion algorithm and reclocking (resulting in a far superior signal than what Oppo sends out over HDMI) and output it over coax digital (S/PDIF). If you run this into a 196/24 capable DAC you will get VERY good high rez digital playback, and don't have to worry about ripping and/or getting a DSD capable DAC.

 

Good point. or do a cheaper yet (easier to test for short term) approach and use an HDMi de-embedder (Monoprice $49) to grab 24 bit PCM coming across HDMI and then send it to your DAC. It's a little jittery but frankly still better than any HDMi-to-AVR solution.

[edorr]

Good point. or do a cheaper yet (easier to test for short term) approach and use an HDMi de-embedder (Monorpice $49) to grab 24 bit PCM coming across HDMI and then send it to your DAC. It's a little jittery but frankly still better than any HDMi-to-AVR solution.

 

This device will NOT strip out and pass through high rez audio over S/PDIF though. Such a box would be illegal.

[ted_b]

This device will NOT strip out and pass through high rez audio over S/PDIF though. Such a box would be illegal.

 

?? Huh? No, the de-embedders do a great job of grabbing 24 bit PCM. They have either coax or toslink outputs, and also send HDMi on its merry way. Grabbing digital PCM off of HDMi is no way illegal, Erik (it's what AVR's do). I've had a review of one for 3 years now. LPCM is open. it's also a great way to get 24/192 from your BluRay discs. The downside (other than having the player do DSD-to-PCM conversion in the case of SACD) is that HDMi, as a vehicle, can be jittery.

[edorr]

?? Huh? No, the de-embedders do a great job of grabbing 24 bit PCM. They have either coax or toslink outputs, and also send HDMi on its merry way. Grabbing digital PCM off of HDMi is no way illegal, Erik (it's what AVR's do). I've had a review of one for 3 years now. LPCM is open. it's also a great way to get 24/192 from your BluRay discs. The downside (other than having the player do DSD-to-PCM conversion in the case of SACD) is that HDMi, as a vehicle, can be jittery.

 

A box with HDMI in and non downsampled PCM out over coax violates the HDMI licensing agreement. It may be 24 bit, but would be restricted to 48Khz. The guys building the vanity93 board looked into building this type of converter but refrained because of legality issues. Meridian does this using encryption on the s/pdif outputs (their HD621).

[Kal Rubinson]

I suspect the vast majority of DSD content in circulation is not bought/downloaded but ripped from SACD.

Well, you might say so but I could not possibly comment (in public). ;-)

[Sherwood]

A box with HDMI in and non downsampled PCM out over coax violates the HDMI licensing agreement.

 

Not to split hairs, here, but the HDMI licensing agreement is not a "law". No one can build a licensed product to do this, perhaps, but one could (arguably) legally build and sell something that complied with DMCA 504©(2) and did exactly what Ted described.

 

And the argument is somewhat null, for our purposes, as owning these devices is certainly within the bounds of fair use, and they've been sold for years. Even if some decision caused the manufacturer to cease making the "de-embedder" and distributors stopped carrying it, your personal device used to convert your personal content would remain legal.

[mav52]

There are no SACD players that output the DSD data to an external DAC. The digital outputs on a SACD player are for output of redbook CD digital only.

 

whoops, I was thinking my Sony XA5400es outputs DSD over the HDMI but few DACS have HDMI

[ted_b]

whoops, I was thinking my Sony XA5400es outputs DSD over the HDMI but few DACS have HDMI

 

Yes, there are a boatload of SACD/universal players that output DSD over HDMI, but today only some AVR's and/or pre/pros do the DSD decoding..and the majority of them do not have great hi-end analog sections (i.e they are chock full of features, not quality). I know of no DSD-capable stand alone DAC that does DSD decoding via HDMI. For one, the HDMI licensing is brutally expensive.

[edorr]

Not to split hairs, here, but the HDMI licensing agreement is not a "law". No one can build a licensed product to do this, perhaps, but one could (arguably) legally build and sell something that complied with DMCA 504©(2) and did exactly what Ted described.

 

Every single manufacturer on the planet has concluded it is illegal to build/sell this type of box, because no one does it. It would be very easy technically for Meridian to sell a version of the HD621 without the encryption - easy money. However, their lawyers have concluded they cannot do it.

 

The only guys that sell thes boxes are garage operations that keep a very low profile about it. I personally only know of one.

 

And the argument is somewhat null, for our purposes, as owning these devices is certainly within the bounds of fair use, and they've been sold for years. Even if some decision caused the manufacturer to cease making the "de-embedder" and distributors stopped carrying it, your personal device used to convert your personal content would remain legal.

 

I agree it is probably within legal bounds to own one as a personal device (but not to market one). This is a situation similar to the status of marijuana in some places - legal (or not prosecuted) to own a small amount for personal use, but still illegal to produce and distribute it.

[ted_b]

Erik, HDMi de-embedders are sold everywhere, and our pundits on AC have tested them to be 24 bit. These are not garage DIY guys. ??

 

For only $39.15 each when QTY 50+ purchased - 4X1 HDMI® Switcher w/ Toslink & Digital Coaxial Port (Rev.2) w/ 3D support.

 

Atlona Technologies connectivity solutions, cables, splitters, extenders, distribution amplifiers, converters, switchers for commercial, professional and industrial applications

 

HDMI 4 Ports Switcher with Audio Output Support 3D--Portta

[edorr]

Erik, HDMi de-embedders are sold everywhere, and our pundits on AC have tested them to be 24 bit. These are not garage DIY guys. ??

 

For only $39.15 each when QTY 50+ purchased - 4X1 HDMI® Switcher w/ Toslink & Digital Coaxial Port (Rev.2) w/ 3D support.

 

 

Atlona Technologies connectivity solutions, cables, splitters, extenders, distribution amplifiers, converters, switchers for commercial, professional and industrial applications

 

HDMI 4 Ports Switcher with Audio Output Support 3D--Portta

 

They do not strip and pass through high rez sample rates (i.e. above 48Khz).

[mav52]

Yes, there are a boatload of SACD/universal players that output DSD over HDMI, but today only some AVR's and/or pre/pros do the DSD decoding..and the majority of them do not have great hi-end analog sections (i.e they are chock full of features, not quality). I know of no DSD-capable stand alone DAC that does DSD decoding via HDMI. For one, the HDMI licensing is brutally expensive.

 

ted, I wonder if I can get my Sony 5400es to output DSD to my Mytek ( Mastering Version, pg 7)via a digital out connection, never tried it

[ted_b]

They do not strip and pass through high rez sample rates (i.e. above 48Khz).

 

Yes they do! I own one!! Why would I be arguing this?? They pass 24/192 BluRay, etc.

 

Here is my old review and 25 page thread from three years ago (in it we had the Oppo/Atlona tested to confirm 24 bits, albeit only 24/88 for DSD-toPCM, but 24/192 for bluray):

Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!

 

We've gotten too far from the OP's intent. Net/net, SACD players do not pass DSD over anything but HDMI (requires an AVR with DSD decoding currently) or analog (post-decoding of course). If you want the player's PCM then these kits or de-embedders will be a solution, but I personally I am somewhat allergic to DSD-to-PCM conversion (after hearing native DSD). Piano, for example, sounds like poor wow-flutter issues from old cassette tapes. Even Pentatone's Mari Kodama hdtracks examples. The native DSD is an entirely different planet for those recordings.

[ted_b]

ted, I wonder if I can get my Sony 5400es to output DSD to my Mytek ( Mastering Version, pg 7)via a digital out connection, never tried it

How? With an add-on moddded board you mean? There is NO coax/toslink DSD connection on SACD players.

[mav52]

How? With an add-on moddded board you mean?

 

Well I just tried it, and Nope, the Sony will not output DSD from it's digital output jacks, should have read the manual as it notes that. Well hack