How low can you go?

[DigiPete]

What is the bass extension on your best rig?

 

Some feel that the lower octave(s) are not worth the effort, others put a sub in each corner to get there.

So how low can you go +/- 3dB?

[Synfreak]

My speakers are rated with a -3dB point at 30Hz.

I've measured them - at listening point - to be really able to reproduce low frequency content down to about 25Hz.

 

BUT!

You actually wouldn't know how bad a usual response is looking when measured - in the usual "listening-environment" clled living room.

 

Bass-response below around 250 - 300 Hz is very hard to get right, due to the anomalies applied by the room ...

(room-modes causing suck-outs and huge spikes).

 

Thanks to our hearing-system (mostly software ... ;-) ), that don't mean it will be completely unlistenable.

But if you once heard a system in a acoustically treatet room, or - for most systems the only acceptable "tuning" - via DSP correction, you will find it hard to revert to the usual system ...

[mayhem13]

My dedicated HT has usable output to 10hz using 2 12" and 2 18" subs.

[wgscott]

If I had $3K in change in the couch cushions, i would get 2 of these and run them in stereo;

 

 

They do DSP room correction.

[Rat44]

The book says my AR-9's can go to 18.

I have no way to measure them but I have never felt a need to add a sub.

[DigiPete]

The 3 Genelec 8260's up front are rated:

 

29 Hz - 21 kHz (± 1 dB)

26 Hz - 40 kHz (-3 dB)

 

But they

measure to 19Hz due to room resonance that I have counteracted with the build in DSP.

 

Then I have a Genelec 7271A sub with 2 x 12" bass for good measure, but I usually only use it for LFE and rear channels when listening to surround music.

I can include or exclude the sub as i like and change X-over freq on the fly as everything is digital and signals run in AES/EBU cables.

Rating:

 

19 - 100 Hz (± 3 dB)

 

The proof is in the pudding:

 

 

Right front speaker:

 

 

 

 

Sub:

 

 

 

 

-------- Before correction

-------- Correction filter

-------- After correction

 

 

Now it is not as pretty as i wish, I need to do more to the room but fortunately I can meassure the progress :-D

 

Still sounds pretty good!

[Brian A]

The crossovers roll mine off at 40Hz. Sometimes I sense that I'm missing something but generally I am just fine.

 

An example is some kind of bass instrument on Femi Kuti's "Sorry, Sorry" has its first harmonic overtone slightly above 40 Hz and I clearly hear that but not the bass instrument itself. Usually it's no biggie.

 

In my young and ruckus (and solid state power amp) days, I once had a picture shake off the wall when playing bass-heavy music loudly through my current speakers.

[Brian A]

...I have counteracted with the build in DSP...

I have an Old School system built the hard way through lots of listening and fiddling. My mantra has been the Old School mantra which is that simple is better. Now that my system sounds the way it does, a decades long process, I fight against change. I love my system.

 

I give this context so that I may say that I've come to respect DSP.

 

A couple of years ago, I visited a friend in Antwerp Belgium who has a spectacular system in a spectacular listening room. The computer systems in the room seemed to equal the mono-blocks. A couple of times he jumped up and tweaked the DSP profiles to subtly adjust the sound. His ears were attuned to the system and he could hear the requisite changes; I could not.

 

There was a big difference in the sound of what I heard in Antwerp and what I hear at home. The sound of Ed's system was enveloping. The music consumed the room. The music consumed me in a way my system never does.

 

When I close my eyes, my speakers "disappear". With Ed's system, the speakers were never "there" in the first place; the music just seem to exist indigenously in the room. I think that is the difference; what you see when you close your eyes. With my system, I "see" a distant sound stage, with players upon it. With Ed's system, when I closed my eyes, I was on the soundstage, experiencing an intense interaction with the music.

 

Frankly, I didn't like being that close.

[firedog]

My speakers (floorstanders) go down to the mid-30's.

 

I also have a decent subwoofer (Mirage) that I originally bought when I had small monitors w/out much bass. The sub goes down to about 28hz.

 

But since buying the floorstanders, I don't use the sub anymore. The quality of bass from the floorstanders is better overall, so I prefer listening to quality, and not just more extension. Besides, most recordings of jazz, pop, and rock don't really have much bass below 40hz, so I don't feel I'm missing much there: I used to use a TACT pre that used a digital crossover to send everything below 40hz to the sub, and I could listen to the sub alone. On many recordings, there was no or very little, or only occasional output from the sub. (Not so true with good orchestral recordings).

 

If I had a really high-end sub that made quality bass down to 20 hz I might feel differently.

[Blake]

23 Hz. I mostly listen to electronic music with very deep bass so a sub is essential for me. Plus, you would be surprised how much even very small contributions from the subwoofer add to music that is less bass heavy.

 

Following on the DSP comments, Revel's new Performa3 and Ultima series subwoofers arriving next month will have DSP EQ for the main speakers as well, not just the sub.

 

 

The $10,000 mother load:

 

Rhythm2 Details | Revel

[coot]

We are big pipe organ listeners. The Ohm 5000's while superb for the rest of the range simply don't fulfill the desire for a proper plumbing of the depths. A 32 ft. organ pipe's pitch is 16.4Hz. The next improvement will be subs and will probably be killer expensive as according to specs I've seen very few will go that low. And yes, I'll prolly need dsp too.

[ecwl]

I wonder how many poll respondents are quoting their speaker/subwoofer specs and how many actually used an RTA to measure. My subs are rated to 18Hz but in my room, when I measured it out, I can get good integration and a flat frequency response to 24Hz and -3 dB at 23Hz.

 

Without my subs, my system goes down to 40Hz which for the longest time I thought was great. It's one of those things where you don't know what you're missing until you have it. I suspect when people feel lower octaves are not worth the effort, what they've been hearing at dealers' or friends' home are a result of uneven bass response or poor integration of subs and speakers. In those situations, I would prefer less bass too. Obviously, I have no proof of this since I haven't tried using an RTA at the local dealers or friends' home.

[mav52]

I've got speakers (Phil 3's) that are 25Hz - 20kHz (+/- 2db)

my sub: 14 - 200 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz)

[jtwrace]

I'm within 3db measured in my room to 12Hz.

[Kiwi2]

I wonder how many poll respondents are quoting their speaker/subwoofer specs and how many actually used an RTA to measure.

 

My room measures down to 23hz.

 

 

 

 

Without my subs, my system goes down to 40Hz which for the longest time I thought was great. It's one of those things where you don't know what you're missing until you have it. I suspect when people feel lower octaves are not worth the effort, what they've been hearing at dealers' or friends' home are a result of uneven bass response or poor integration of subs and speakers.

 

I fully agree. Once you have had a flat response down to the mid to low 20's, it's hard to go back to only having down to 35hz. Without having anything below 30hz, music (jazz, folk, orchestral) sounds weak and thin to me now. The foundation, like the resonance of the room that the music was recorded in, is missing.

[dallasjustice]

I'm all about taking room measurements to optimize a system. But this is the least important measurement one could take. One should worry more about the audible range. Pretty much everything below 24hz is inaudible. Do some test tones if you don't believe me. Btw, mine measure down to 16hz. The problem is that most mics aren't gonna be accurate at extreme ends of the spectrum. So, who really knows? At 16hz all that happens is my listeningroom door starts flapping against the door jamb!

[Kiwi2]

I'm all about taking room measurements to optimize a system. But this is the least important measurement one could take.

 

Umm... when someone takes measurements to optimize their room... it kind of shows what Hz they have got down to in it.

[elcorso]

......................................Once you have had a flat response down to the mid to low 20's, it's hard to go back to only having down to 35hz. Without having anything below 30hz, music (jazz, folk, orchestral) sounds weak and thin to me now.The foundation, like the resonance of the room that the music was recorded in, is missing.

 

+1 Totally agree.

 

But we are talking about 2 channels (stereo) subs, and not the 0.1 part of the "home theater's 5.1" Isn't it?

 

Roch

[ecwl]

I have always wondered how low a system needs to go for music listening before it doesn't make a difference anymore.

 

For those of you who have a flat frequency response below 20Hz, I wonder if you want to try just arbitrary rolling off the low frequencies at 18Hz, 20Hz, 25Hz, 30Hz and see if there is a difference. As dallasjustice said, in terms of musical tone, the cutoff seems to be quite high but obviously, high-amplitude vibrations at low frequencies can be felt by all of us. But do low-amplitude very low frequencies impact our experience of the music? I have certainly heard arguments that they provide the ambience/acoustic imaging of original recording atmosphere. I'm not sure. And I have no means of testing it.

[elcorso]

........... At 16hz all that happens is my listeningroom door starts flapping against the door jamb!

 

Beware of your dental bridges when this door starts flapping...!

 

Roch

[Kiwi2]

But we are talking about 2 channels (stereo) subs, and not the 0.1 part of the "home theater's 5.1" Isn't it?

 

Yes, when listening to 2ch music tracks of CD rips.

 

Though I do use an AVR and its bass management (60hz crossover) and subs to achieve a flat response down to 23hz in my room.

[elcorso]

I have always wondered how low a system needs to go for music listening before it doesn't make a difference anymore.

 

For those of you who have a flat frequency response below 20Hz, I wonder if you want to try just arbitrary rolling off the low frequencies at 18Hz, 20Hz, 25Hz, 30Hz and see if there is a difference. As dallasjustice said, in terms of musical tone, the cutoff seems to be quite high but obviously, high-amplitude vibrations at low frequencies can be felt by all of us. But do low-amplitude very low frequencies impact our experience of the music? I have certainly heard arguments that they provide the ambience/acoustic imaging of original recording atmosphere. I'm not sure. And I have no means of testing it.

 

In my personal case I need subs to get the 'original atmosphere' of the recording session, like the concert hall reverberation time. This increase (for me) the illusion of being there and allows a better illusion (again) of depth and wide of the image in my music from, without subtracting details from the mid & highs. For this, some times is hard to get a nice match and blend between the subs and the main speakers, since the crossover must be a very good one, also speakers drivers design, placement, et al.

 

Roch

[AudGuy]

I use a pair of REL T-7 subs to augment the main L/R speakers. The L/R speakers have amps in them and by themselves, don't really need subs, but my room does so I have them. To tame room modes I determined where the modes where occurring and that is where the T-7's have been situated. This made a HUGE difference to the bass in my room. No measuring being done though ...

 

Using a tone generator I find the current configuration is clean and nice down to 30hz, there is some audible output at 25hz and well 20hz is more felt than heard. I have very little music that even tries to go down this low. I consider my system to be good to 30hz and rolling off below that, how much only an RTA knows for sure. I am not so concerned about it though as the bass sounds fantastic.

 

In the interests of taming the room, I am going to add 2 more T-7's and really anchor the system with a woofer at each corner of the room. I feel this will make bass totally satisfactory for my tastes. Additionally, the REL's are speaker-level connected and give me a fair bit of leeway in adjusting them both to the room, and to accommodate different music.

[Paul R]

By spec, main speakers go to 45hz, and by measurement in the room, they are at 41hz at the 3db level. Typically bowever, they are putting out satisfying bass output down to 38hz or so, and significant output below that down to about 34. They must have a solid cutoff below that, by measurement in our room. Not bad for a $2800 set of stand mounts.

 

By contrast, the mighty fine MMGs are roughly 10hz higher, but sound fare sweeter on orchestral material.

 

No subs or DSP in the mix. Might add some DSP at some point, but probably not until it is a good as it can get without.

[designmule]

The short answer is that with my two M&K V-75s I have rising output down to 25Hz and then things head South for the winter quite quickly.

 

I attribute the rising response and quick falloff (for sealed subs) to the room mostly. My mains are rated to 47Hz. According to measurements taking with REW they perform fine to that frequency start to dip and then come back in force from 35-40Hz down to the mid 20's.

 

Currently they are high-passed at 80Hz and the subs are used in conjunction with an antimode 8033s.