The best speaker.... really

[DigiPete]

Is there a really any significant advantage to having the amp (and D/A conversion) inside the speaker box?

 

You get significant advantages from:

 

- Having all components optimized to work together at manufacturer level

- Having one amp per driver and optimized to it

- Removing all passive (X-over) components blocking the way to the driver

- Shortening high amp cabling, i.e. speaker cable.

- Removing coloration and noise by having D/A conversion right before amps

 

 

Given the miles of wire inside, I can't really believe omitting speaker cabling would really be that advantageous, especially when you consider that some design compromises would have to be made to house the amps in the speakers.

 

I'm not sure what miles of wire you are thinking of, it sounds like a really bad mid-fi design.

 

Compromises like no unknown lengths of analogue cables with unknown connectors in unknown noisy environment???

Compromises because more cabinets, more connectors, more loose cable are cheaper, safer and more efficient???

 

 

Talking about compromises

 

99% of all speakers are square boxes, the worst possible shape for a speaker - ever!

Most of the rest are open baffles or panels - way superior solutions.

A few are horns or omnis or other interesting contraptions.

 

Then there are increasing numbers of cabinets cast or moulded to double curved organic shapes that often combine:

 

- Ultra stiff cabinets

- Low weight

- No standing waves

- No difration

- Acoustic lenses as part of the design

 

A double curved cabinet in cast aluminum easily outperforms a box of flat wooden panels of 5 times the thickness.

This leaves space for both better sound and electronics inside the same cabinet space ;-)

 

Square boxes are great for storing CDs after ripping!

[DigiPete]

Danish Bang & Olufsen made the Beolab 5 all digital using DSP to optimize bass to the room.

Just touch the top of speaker lightly, and the mike will slide out to two different positions while collecting feedback.

 

 

 

 

 

Not world class, but still rather spectacular.

[wgscott]

Did they really have direct digital ten years ago?

[DigiPete]

Did they really have direct digital ten years ago?

 

- Direct digital up to 24/88

- 4 ICEpower amps: 2 x 1000w + 2 x 250w = 2500w

- Dual acoustic lenses

- Volume via remote

- 14-21,800 Hz

- Released 2003

 

Crazy Innovative Danes ;-)

[wgscott]

I can see the theoretically inherently superiority in that approach, but if in practice it is so much better, why didn't it catch on?

[DigiPete]

I can see the theoretically inherently superiority in that approach, but if in practice it is so much better, why didn't it catch on?

 

Re. B&O Beolab 5

 

a) It did catch on for a product in it's class

b) 2003 Price £10.000 a pop

c) It is still sold today

d) Most Audiophiles are old, un-educated and set in their ways

e) Bang & Olufsen is a Scandinavian minimalistic design product, so probably more Japan than US

 

and finally

 

f) Beolab 5 was just too far ahead of it's time

g) Probably still is measured by usual comments even here at CA :-/

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[wgscott]

Re. B&O Beolab 5

 

a) It did catch on for a product in it's class

 

Oh.

 

b) 2003 Price £10.000 a pop

 

Do you need two pops for stereo?

 

c) It is still sold today

 

They couldn't unload them in 10 years?

 

d) Most Audiophiles are old, un-educated and set in their ways

 

They were 10 years younger then.

 

e) Bang & Olufsen is a Scandinavian minimalistic design product, so probably more Japan than US

 

B&O is actually fairly popular here, so that is why I was surprised it never caught on.

 

and finally

f) Beolab 5 was just too far ahead of it's time

g) Probably still is measured by usual comments even here at CA :-/

 

My only source is a computer, which can't be that uncommon on "computer audiophile". So it doesn't take much convincing that a direct digital approach would be superior. What does concern me is having to pay a lot of money for what might be a very marginal improvement in practice. If it sounds 2% better (as if that could be quantitated), it isn't worth the expense. (All the audiophile claims of night and day differences have left me a bit cynical and jaded. At least with this, I can see in principle how it could -- or even should -- be better.)

[DigiPete]

My only source is a computer, which can't be that uncommon on "computer audiophile".

So it doesn't take much convincing that a direct digital approach would be superior.

What does concern me is having to pay a lot of money for what might be a very marginal improvement in practice.

If it sounds 2% better (as if that could be quantitated), it isn't worth the expense.

(All the audiophile claims of night and day differences have left me a bit cynical and jaded.

At least with this, I can see in principle how it could -- or even should -- be better.)

 

IMHO:

 

Beolab 5 are better looking / higher WAF

Steinway Lyngdorf S-Series are better sounding

Genelec 8260A are close and half the price

 

 

Now pick your poison

 

PS. The SL-S have true digital amplification, Beolab 5 class D and Genelec AB if that makes any difference.

[Audio_ELF]

- Direct digital up to 24/88

- 4 ICEpower amps: 2 x 1000w + 2 x 250w = 2500w

Just for clarity Pete, B&O ICEPower amps are not Direct Digital, they are analogue input PWM amplifiers (also used in amongst others Rotel and BelCanto amplifiers). Oh and 2x 1000w + 2x 250w does not equal 2500w really; not unless you are a box shifting company!

 

Direct Digital amplifier is slightly different ... they were available 10 years ago though from Lyngdorf / TACT (I believe the first was the Millennium created in 1998) as well as more recently from NAD and NuForce.

 

IMHO:

Beolab 5 are better looking / higher WAF

Steinway Lyngdorf S-Series are better sounding

Genelec 8260A are close and half the price

Can add to that list Meridian and now Linn (along with a French company who's name escapes my mind right now) as companies offering digital input speakers with DSP crossover as well as PMC in the "professional" environment.

 

The Beolab 5 are £15,000 a pair (current UK price).

 

Eloise

[Bob Stern]

- Direct digital up to 24/88

- 4 ICEpower amps: 2 x 1000w + 2 x 250w = 2500w

- Dual acoustic lenses

- Volume via remote

- 14-21,800 Hz

- Released 2003

 

Crazy Innovative Danes ;-)

 

The Danes licensed it from Manny LaCarrubba, an innovative Californian:

Management Team - Sausalito Audio

 

LaCarrubba's US patents:

5,615,176

6,068,080

6,435,301

6,820,718

[bdiament]

Hi wgscott,

 

Is there a really any significant advantage to having the amp (and D/A conversion) inside the speaker box?...

 

Having heard the many consistent, repeatable and immediately obvious benefits derived from isolating amplifiers, crossovers and converters from vibrations, I can think of some significant disadvantages to having them in the same enclosure. While the simplicity of an all-in-one arrangement would bring with it certain desirables, for my ears, these are outweighed as soon as one hears what proper isolation does.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[Audio_ELF]

Having heard the many consistent, repeatable and immediately obvious benefits derived from isolating amplifiers, crossovers and converters from vibrations, I can think of some significant disadvantages to having them in the same enclosure. While the simplicity of an all-in-one arrangement would bring with it certain desirables, for my ears, these are outweighed as soon as one hears what proper isolation does.

There are of course some active speaker systems (though not utilising DSP for the crossover) which actually utilise external crossover and power amps.

 

These range from designs for Naim and Linn speakers to Bowers and Wilkins Nautilus as well as some DIY designs. I may be wrong but I thought some Steinway designs utilise external power amplification with just the physical speakers in the wall.

[4est]

Crazy innovative Californians...

 

The Danes licensed it from Manny LaCarrubba, an innovative Californian:

Management Team - Sausalito Audio

 

LaCarrubba's US patents:

5,615,176

6,068,080

6,435,301

6,820,718

[Paul R]

Probably did not catch on because - well - who wants Daleks in their living room?

-Paul

[Exterminate! Exterminate! You will be exterminated! Bzzzt! Pop! Braaaack!]

 

Danish Bang & Olufsen made the Beolab 5 all digital using DSP to optimize bass to the room.

Just touch the top of speaker lightly, and the mike will slide out to two different positions while collecting feedback.

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]8956[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]8957[/ATTACH]

 

 

Not world class, but still rather spectacular.

[wgscott]

who wants Daleks

 

Heh.

[longbowbbs]

Maybe their next model should resemble a Red phone booth....

[astrallite]

Holy grail is probably some $100,000k+/pair Magico speakers

[coxhaus]

The best I have heard is the Rockport Arrakis driven with tube amps. You do need a large room but they sound spectacular.

 

I still like the old Magico M5 speakers. They have a sound I really like.

[MrAcoustat]

Holy grail is probably some $100,000k+/pair Magico speakers

 

No holy grail is this - - - - -

[coxhaus]

No holy grail is this - - - - - [ATTACH=CONFIG]9225[/ATTACH]

 

This looks like the setup I saw at Rocky Mountain Audio Show.

 

PS

And listened to.

[MrAcoustat]

This looks like the setup I saw at Rocky Mountain Audio Show.

 

PS

And listened to.

 

I have spent many hours at the SSI 2012 - 2013 - in Montreal with this system ( thanks Jeremy ) i'm not crazy about BOXES, but those i could live with.

[junker]

Coherent but also monochromatic. So by analogy this would be at a single frequency (note)?

 

I wasn't being very clear. I am just approximating "point source" to mean "single full-range speaker".

 

The main flaw in my analogy is that a laser is phase-coherent. Sound isn't, but given the wavelengths, it doesn't really matter. You should be able to construct a complete 3D image from two speakers.

[junker]

Just wondering why the hell they are toeing those in? Isn't that their beauty... that they are omnidirectional and throw a crazy good image just about anywhere in the room?

 

But damn I likes me some MBLs in the gloss black and gold...

 

No holy grail is this - - - - - [ATTACH=CONFIG]9225[/ATTACH]

[MrAcoustat]

Just wondering why the hell they are toeing those in? Isn't that their beauty... that they are omnidirectional and throw a crazy good image just about anywhere in the room?

 

But damn I likes me some MBLs in the gloss black and gold...

 

Ok Junker, here they are. - - - - -

[junker]

Always a trade-off, but...

 

Vandersteen 7s with the carbon fiber / balsa wood sandwich perfect piston drivers if you can tolerate low sensitivity and a slight reduction in dynamics:

 

 

For tone lovers the Shindo LaTour field coils:

 

 

And for the opposite of the Vandersteen 7, a lot of interesting horn designs out there that are super efficient like the 105dB Klipschorn...