Stand alone DAC or receiver built-in

[greg631]

Hi-

 

I've added a NuForce U192S USB to SPDIF adapter to my setup.

 

My question is:

 

How much of a difference/benefit is a standalone DAC such as the BIFROST from Schiit vs the DAC built into my receiver(s)?

 

I have a Yamaha RX-V473 connected to a pair of Definitive Technology Studio Monitor 450's

and an

Onkyo TX-NR905 connected to a pair of Definitive Technology Mythos Ones.

 

What component is now the weakest link in the chain?

 

Thanks!

 

Greg

[Audio_ELF]

Greg; you may get some improvement with a standalone DAC; however my personal opinion is that most AV Receivers are more limited in their pre-amp and power amp stages than the DAC section and therefore to get a DAC to sound its best you need to look at a separate stereo amplifier in addition to the DAC.

 

At the end of the day this is just my opinion and you really need to demo and decide for yourself. There will be an improvement, but weather the improvement is sufficient to justify the cost is something only you can decide.

 

Eloise

[mayhem13]

I agree with Eloise for the most part, but there are some great AVRs out there that do everything well. I approach these delicious with practicality for the system. If I need to keep things simple and video is involved with multichannel audio, I go AVR as I have in two of the three systems here. The third is all audio where I am king of my castle and large speakers and seperates live and prosper!

 

Note those better AVRs are upwards of $1k where the gap between them and seperates begins to narrow. At the $2k price point and above, the advantages of the AVR are all but gone.

 

Would you hear a difference using a seperate DAC such as the Schiit when attached to your AVRs?.....probobly a slight improvement if any.

 

BTW don't be afraid of Pre-owned. There's some excellent legacy AVRs out there on Audiogon and such. Since tech is changing so fast 3D and networking capabilities, a one or two year old unit can be had for less than half it's original selling price.

[Jud]

It's actually due to the rapidly changing technology Mayhem mentioned that I would tend to go for separates. Amps don't change that much while DACs do these days, so why have to change the former along with the latter when you upgrade?

[mav52]

I agree with Eloise for the most part, but there are some great AVRs out there that do everything well. I approach these delicious with practicality for the system. If I need to keep things simple and video is involved with multichannel audio, I go AVR as I have in two of the three systems here. The third is all audio where I am king of my castle and large speakers and seperates live and prosper!

 

Note those better AVRs are upwards of $1k where the gap between them and seperates begins to narrow. At the $2k price point and above, the advantages of the AVR are all but gone.

 

Would you hear a difference using a seperate DAC such as the Schiit when attached to your AVRs?.....probobly a slight improvement if any.

 

BTW don't be afraid of Pre-owned. There's some excellent legacy AVRs out there on Audiogon and such. Since tech is changing so fast 3D and networking capabilities, a one or two year old unit can be had for less than half it's original selling price.

 

Most middle ground receivers contain DACS that handle 24/192 on all channels which is not bad and have a host of inputs and outputs and have pre-outs for that external amp connection.

[mayhem13]

....and I agree.....the gains from seperates begin to slide on the scale of diminished returns, more so of you consider the simplistic, one box approach to an AVR.

[greg631]

Thanks for the replies.

[greg631]

It's actually due to the rapidly changing technology Mayhem mentioned that I would tend to go for separates. Amps don't change that much while DACs do these days, so why have to change the former along with the latter when you upgrade?

 

Are you happy with your Bifrost? Did you listen to others before/after getting the Bifrost?

Would you do the same again?

 

Thanks.

[greg631]

Greg; ... my personal opinion is that most AV Receivers are more limited in their pre-amp and power amp stages than the DAC section and therefore to get a DAC to sound its best you need to look at a separate stereo amplifier in addition to the DAC.

 

Eloise

 

Thanks.... any suggestions, or a place to start looking. I will also check out the headphone & speaker section. : )

[maximum kahuna]

Greg; you may get some improvement with a standalone DAC; however my personal opinion is that most AV Receivers are more limited in their pre-amp and power amp stages than the DAC section and therefore to get a DAC to sound its best you need to look at a separate stereo amplifier in addition to the DAC.

...

 

Eloise

 

I agree. Eloise is right on point. Your Yamaha has some pretty neat features that newer receivers have, e.g. network ability. Unfortunately one of the things that got dropped from earlier models is the pre-outs which allow you to use outboard amps.

The Bifrost may (I'd say will) make a improvement, but how much you'll notice will be limited by the amps in the Yammy.

 

You've got two systems are they both for audio and video or are you looking to make one audio only? That may determine the upgrade direction. Outboard dacs are by and large two-channel only now.

[greg631]

You've got two systems are they both for audio and video or are you looking to make one audio only? That may determine the upgrade direction. Outboard dacs are by and large two-channel only now.

 

Yamaha is audio only.

Onkyo is both.

[Audio_ELF]

If you're thinking of spending money to get an improvement; at some point you need to say how much you would like to spend. It maybe something like a Peachtree product (or similar from another manufacturer) which combines an integrated amp with 2 channel DAC would suit you best.

 

Eloise

[Paul R]

Eloise is spot on with this insight. The better AVRs have better DACs, and those DACs can sound pretty darn good.

 

You really have to listen to things, then lay out the facts to choose what you will be happy with. Start with the simple facts that few people argue with.

 

Things like:

 

• Will the DAC in a $1500 AVR sound as good as a $1000 standalone DAC? (Very unlikely.)
  
• Will the Power AMP in a $1500 AVR sound as good as a $1000 standalone Power amp? (Still very unlikely, but more likely than the DAC... )
  
• Will the Preamp in a $1500 AVR sounds as good as a $1000 Preamp? (Maybe. Much more likely than the other two options, in my experience.)
  

 

Basically, there is an infinity of choices, narrowed only by your imagination, likes and dislikes, and your budget.

 

Just for fun, here is one of the combinations I have looked at recently. Obviously, I already own some of this gear, but pushing any single item "up the scale" can really have an effect on the budget!

 

[TABLE=class: outer_border, width: 500, align: left]

[TR]

[TD]Outlaw Audio 975 PrePro[/TD]

[TD]$550[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Outlaw Audio M2200 Monoblocs (pair)[/TD]

[TD]$670[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Wavelength Proton USB DAC[/TD]

[TD]$900[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Mac Mini Music Server[/TD]

[TD]$599[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Kimber Kable USB B bus Cu[/TD]

[TD]$60[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Kimber PJB Interconnect Cable Set [/TD]

[TD]$50[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Magnepan MMG Speakers[/TD]

[TD]$599[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Nordost Flatline Speaker Cable[/TD]

[TD]$250[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Apple ATV Gen3[/TD]

[TD]$99[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]NAD T567 Bluray[/TD]

[TD]$599[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Kimber Kable HD19 HDMI cables (2 @ $65/each)[/TD]

[TD]$130[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Apple Airport Extreme Router[/TD]

[TD]$179[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Apple iPad [/TD]

[TD]$399[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Panasoncie Viera TCP50ST50 - 50" Plasma[/TD]

[TD]$998[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Misc (mounting gear, cable chase, etc.) [/TD]

[TD]$150[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]

Total Before Taxes and Shipping:

Texas Sales Tax (8.25%)

 

Total:[/TD]

[TD]

$6232

$ 515

--------

$6747[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

 

This is lower end system, and you can see, it "ain't chump change." There are a lot of hidden costs in there. For example, if I replaced those Outlaw M2200 with a Primare I32 (oh yes...) That $670 becomes $2999, and jumps the total up to $8561, before tax or shipping.

 

Or I were to choose to add a good turntable and phono cart to the existing setup, even a very modest turntable by audiophile standards, like a Concept, adds in another $2500 - minimum. $8732, before tax or shipping.

 

So, one needs to think carefully about each component, and how it fits together and how it sounds. Most of all, listen to the stuff and decide what you like. Heck, even I get caught up in the rush sometimes, and I am a really cheap guy.

 

Out of that list above, the easiest thing to change is the DAC, say substituting a PeachTree DAC*IT and saving $450. A standalone DAC is necessary to me, because the PrePro sounds very inferior for *music* to the standalone DAC, at least it does to me. It might be a totally different story for you though!

 

Hope that helps a bit -

Yours,

-Paul

 

P.S. Don't forget the cost of a rack or appropriate furniture, a backup disk for the Mac, and some decent power filtering too... just keeps adding up and up and up. I'd add those in, but I would be past the 10min edit point. Just assume another $750-$1500, depending upon what you like.

 

 

Greg; you may get some improvement with a standalone DAC; however my personal opinion is that most AV Receivers are more limited in their pre-amp and power amp stages than the DAC section and therefore to get a DAC to sound its best you need to look at a separate stereo amplifier in addition to the DAC.

 

At the end of the day this is just my opinion and you really need to demo and decide for yourself. There will be an improvement, but weather the improvement is sufficient to justify the cost is something only you can decide.

 

Eloise

[Jud]

Are you happy with your Bifrost? Did you listen to others before/after getting the Bifrost?

Would you do the same again?

 

Thanks.

 

Very happy. After. (It was designed by the same person who designed the Theta I owned for 20 years and liked a lot, plus has a 15 day return if not satisfied. I felt comfortable with that, especially at the price point.) Absolutely.

[maximum kahuna]

Yamaha is audio only.

Onkyo is both.

 

Now you need to decide how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. The top three on Paul's list take you to $2K plus cables. Given where you're at I'd say A/V is good and concentrate on audio. Maybe look at an mid-level dac, technology is driving rapid change, and an integrated amp. You may then decide that your speakers are the weak link (or maybe not.) From there you'll have a better reference point for what sound you like (and don't like.) Then the sky's and your budget is the limit!

 

PS Another endorsement for the Bifrost.

[greg631]

Thanks Paul, Jud and Max

 

The list is a GREAT starting point, and helpful.... I am all too familiar with 'upgrade fever' that happens ... It happens to me all the time. LOL

 

Leaning toward the Bifrost and a new amp and pre....

 

Budget I have is least $$ for best sound.... ROTF.

I know that's hard to determine, and an individual thing.

 

Looking for a place to start, and I think I've got a good start with the info here.

 

Thanks again.

[bobbmd]

greg631 hi!

i just got my feet wet with 2 little schiits the magni and the modi

for now i listen only to streaming music via MOG (320kbs) via usb port from an ancient hp mediacenter pc running windows xp(circa 2003) the 2 schiits go into (via rca plugs) an old yamaha rx-v2500 in "pure direct 2channel mode"

doing a/b comparisons between the optical out on the pc to optcial in on avr in 7.1 setup or 5.1 puredirect/plx2 music surround/or even 2channel i thought the modi improved the sound stage/clarity/separation by afactor of 10 to 10th-plus i didnt have to crank up the volume

to me the modi made the music sound almost as good/better than cd's/dvd-a's/sacd's that i play through my yamaha universal changer using outlaw icbm-1 for base management

i dont think this is subjective nor am i imagining the sound i hear

the few ripped cd's and dvd-a's i was was able to save on media monkey and wmplayer(my pc and back up crashed simultaneously,lost all 600+cd's,dvd-a's) are markedly improved

 

stones albums sound clearer the guitar riffs distinct on cowboyjunkies trinity sessions revisited(on MOG) on misguided angel i can hear 2 voices in the chrous margo timmins AND her brother never heard that before/ all this is even more apparent listening via magni using a set 30+year old beyerdynamic dt 990's

 

even listening to sirius at paltry 128 kbps makes to my ears an astounding difference

 

soon i will upgrade to macmini rerip my cd's and get a bifrost or gungnir

but in my opinion a stand alone DAC even with an avr with built in dacs is definitly the way to go

bobbmd

[greg631]

bobbmd -

 

Thanks!

 

What do you listen with?

 

"improved ... 10 to the 10th" ... WOW! That sounds like a strong endorsement of the modi....

[bobbmd]

do you mean speaker wise?

cambridgesoundworks newton t500 towers circa 2005 with csw model 6's(henry kloss's) and csw s300's surround(dipole,bipole and direct settings) and csw center

like i said the sound clarity separation soundstage is very impressive way beyond what i expected and for now i'm really only listening to streaming music

i certainly dont have a highend system its what i could afford at the time and what my cfo(spouse) would allow - so she gave me the ok for the schiits and am awaiting new cans in form of sennheiser hd598's bobbmd