Jump to content
IGNORED

Audirvana 1.4.2 and Airplay


Recommended Posts

Hello

 

Today I sent Damien, the developer of Audirvana as detailed a report I could of Airplay being extremely intermittent.

 

Personally I am using an AppleTV 2 not an Airport Express.

 

As a workaround, I downgraded to Audirvana 1.4.1 using Time Machine.

 

-----

 

If you want to chime here and let me know if you found a solution that would be great. My workaround is to use 1.4.1 for now.

 

Cheers

PS Audirvana is AMAZING!

Best Regards[br]Alex

Link to comment

Is there any advantage to using Audirvana to stream vs. using the Apple TV2 as a zone-player? (The only one I can think of is letting Audirvana resample everything to 48kHz instead of core audio). I fink ATV2 is much more robust when used like a zone player than streamed to.

Link to comment
Is there any advantage to using Audirvana to stream vs. using the Apple TV2 as a zone-player? (The only one I can think of is letting Audirvana resample everything to 48kHz instead of core audio). I fink ATV2 is much more robust when used like a zone player than streamed to.

 

I was wondering the same thing. I would think that Airplay would negate what's gained by using A+.

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment

Hello wgscott and kennyb123

 

Thanks for chiming in.

 

Firstly, I wanted to let everyone who might be facing the issue I reported here re: Airplay and Audirvana 1.4.2 that Audirvana 1.4.2.1 resolves the issue. Damien, the developer, sent me an email reply to my 'bug report' and a link to 1.4.2.1 which fixes the regression.

 

Please take advantage of the update as a resolution.

 

He wrote:

 

Hi Alex,

 

Thank you for this detailed report.

There is a regression in 1.4.2. Can you check with this test build: http://audirvana.com/delivery/AudirvanaPlus_1.4.2.1.dmg ?

It should fix the issue.

 

Best,

Damien

 

––––

 

With respect to Apple TV's (ATV) Airplay feature and Audirvana. I can confirm that you will absolutely hear a marked improvement in sound quality (SQ).

 

I think the most basic of things to remember are as follows:

RedBook CD calls for 16/44KHz. You won't be able to extract anything higher than this from a typical off the shelf Audio CD. Considering this, an Apple TV (1st, 2nd and 3rd gen) call all output through it's optical output port @ 48KHz max or fixed, not sure which.

 

As far as I am concerned and know, whether I send the digital audio stream from Audirvana to my ATV using ethernet or via WIFI makes no difference. The same bits still arrive. This is my understanding and I can't imagine this not being true. Sorry but at times I feel as though voodoo, I hate to say, plays a role in hi-fi audio spheres of interest. I would rather be pragmatic about this.

 

So, here is my setup and how it is configured.

 

Hardware and software configuration

-Airport Extreme (AE) bridged to ISP router via ethernet. (Extreme and 3rd party router are connected via ethernet) - all my computers and other gear connect to the AE's wireless 5GHz N network. I use 5GHz to reduce WIFI interference as most other networks, cordless phones and bluetooth use 2.4GHz. So the 5GHz preference is to skew from these 2.4GHz signals.

-ATV 2nd gen is connected to the Extreme via ethernet

-iMac 27 inch 3.4GHz i7 32GB RAM (using wireless N to connect to AE)

-iTunes 11.0.1

-Audirvana 1.4.2.1

-ATV is connected to an Audiolab 8200CD via optical (I bought a cheap 12 Euro cable - I am not convinced with the hype on very expensive cables)

-Audiolab 8200CD is connected to an Audiolab 8200A

-Dali speakers

 

Of course, if you want even higher quality you would like to connect through USB directly to your DAC but keep in mind, that you will need to have Audio files that intrinsically exceed the 16/44 of a red book CD.

 

An ATV of any generation would not be a good candidate for audio resolutions beyond 16/44 because it can't technically do higher (ok it can go to 48KHz) but it would be like downsampling. In these cases where you have audio exceeding 16/44 you would need a DAC that can exceed that rate and you would need to go through USB to deliver those higher bits, unless your DAC is wireless.

 

In my experience, Audirvana has introduced amazing dynamics to my audio gear. I was at one time using iTunes 11 only via airplay and was happy but Audirvana has really put a polish on the experience. I suppose the best analogy would be like cleaning your windows and letting the sun shine through in all its glory. You don't know how dirty a window is until you clean it.

 

I hope this helps. :)

 

PS All my Audio in iTunes is in ALAC, converted from FLAC or ripped from my Audio CD collection.

 

Please forgive me if anything is incorrect or not properly explained. Although I really appreciate technical speak, when it comes to music, it's my ears that do the talking but I would love to read your comments, corrections or whatever.

 

Cheers and happy '13!

Alex

Best Regards[br]Alex

Link to comment

hi alex santos

 

How do you send the audio from Audirvana to your ATV? (I am not very familiar with the program)

 

Do you choose the ATV from within iTunes, or from the Audio Midi control panel or the System Preferences sound panel, or using some other utility (e.g. Rogue Amoeba's Airfoil). Also do you specify whether to send as 44 or 48khz at any point.

 

Also, as a point for comparison, have you been able to try a direct optical connection from your computer to your DAC.

 

It would be interesting to get some detail on this so that other people can try to duplicate your setup and experience.

Link to comment

Hi

 

Screen Shot 2013-01-06 at 2.22.18 PM.png

 

It's easy to do.

1) Open iTunes as normal

2) Launch Audirvana 1.4.1 or 1.4.2.1 (Note: as per this discussion, 1.4.2 had issues with Airplay)

3) Go to Audirvana>Preferences (see screenshot) and set your "Preferred Audio Device"

 

Does this help?

 

Alex

Best Regards[br]Alex

Link to comment

In terms of connecting my computer directly.

 

I have once connected my iMac via USB directly to another DAC but something is wrong with it and it has to undergo repair. I had used it with the same DALI speakers. Unfortunately I don't remember if I used it with Audirvana but the sound was exceptionally good.

 

The DAC here is a TEAC A-H01.

 

The sound was extremely good but through Airplay I can't say there is a difference. I will say that Audirvana presents an amazing level of quality that iTunes on its own can not compete with.

 

Just for the record, I have never used Amara but to be honest, it's price tag is overkill and I wouldn't believe that it is better than Audirvana, at least not appreciably better. There were a lot of reported problems with Amara that I can't validate but the point here is simply that Audirvana is very affordable and delivers an audible difference. I do however, recommend you dedicate lossless music into the equation not lossy such as MP3s. The latter are very inferior and don't produce nice dynamics.

 

I hope this helps.

Best Regards[br]Alex

Link to comment

Yes thanks, that is helpful.

 

So it looks like Audirvana is sending 44khz to the ATV, which is (presumably) upsampling to 48 and sending to the DAC? Forgot to ask if your DAC has a display of incoming bit rate which would confirm this.

 

I'm trying to sort out just how many times the signal might be re-sampled during the airplay chain. Theory being that fewer would be better, but also that the quality of resampling will be a factor. Of course the dropout issue suggests there's another factor in play. I sometimes get short periods of distortion, as opposed to silence (ie dropouts), using airplay streaming. Perhaps the buffer (if there is one) that sits between the ATV's incoming data and the ouput to DAC creates very high jitter if it is running on fumes... and a steadier incoming stream is therefore better.

 

Just thinking out loud here. Input is very welcome from folks with inside knowledge or with ideas on some tests we can do at home.

Link to comment

 

So it looks like Audirvana is sending 44khz to the ATV, which is (presumably) upsampling to 48 and sending to the DAC? Forgot to ask if your DAC has a display of incoming bit rate which would confirm this.

 

Well my music is all at 44KHz. To confirm you can do a command-I on any track you have.

Screen Shot 2013-01-06 at 3.25.10 PM.png

 

You will notice the sample rate for this one track is in 44KHz. How the AppleTV, which operates at 48KHz handles the 44KHz file is not clear to me, it may be sending it at 44KHz but my DAC always displays 48KHz, indicating that the ATV is sending 48KHz. Regardless of what goes through the ATV it always displays 48KHz. It's an interesting question but your ears are the real give away here. Enjoy the music is probably your best rule of thumb but that doesn't mean you should be optimising where you can of course.

 

I tend to set Audirvana as per this illustration:

 

Screen Shot 2013-01-06 at 3.28.06 PM.png

 

I simply crank it all the way up, my CPU can handle it without issue and I have maxed out RAM to 32GB on my mac. Audirvana caches an entire track to RAM before playback which is great!

 

My music library is actually attached to a single hard drive dedicate to my library. I use USB2 which is sufficiently fast for the purpose of music playback.

 

Well, I am no expert, far from it but yes indeed, it is very nice to see other's setups and their reaction to what they hear.

 

I think that if you love music, it's smart to invest in a good stereo system and in converting your music to a lossless format from CD. I simply use iTunes to go from CD to ALAC, Apple's lossless, now open source encoder. It works nicely. You know, since I moved away from low quality lossy files to lossless, I simply enjoy music more and listen more. I really am so happy that I invested in a solid stereo system. I emphasise, listen to music so much more often to the days I was on ear buds.

 

I really believe in iTunes as your library manager, iTunes 11 is spectacular compared to iTunes 10. Way better for people who listen to music. Audirvana or your choice of 'front end player' really adds the shine to your music and provides incredibly good qualities to music.

 

I think that this is really the future of music listening and it's available now. We live in incredible times!

 

Let me know if you want any more info. I will be happy to share it with you.

 

Oh, I almost forgot, I also turn the volume all the way up on Audirvana to reduce any resampling or preprocessing that might occur and use my real amps nob to increase or decrease the volume. It is a loss of convenience but I think it improves quality a little further. Truth be told though, when I do at times lower Audirvana's volume I can't tell much but when I do this my music is not playing back from an ideal physical location. Sometimes I like music in the background and other times I like to be sitting between my speakers to get a real experience. Music is like that, it's not a religion but a nice experience that we are all blessed to have in our lives. :)

 

also, one more thing sorry. I use my iPhone (Apple's remote app - free from App Store) to remotely control iTunes. It helps because my computer is in the loft and my stereo is downstairs in the living room.

 

Alex

Best Regards[br]Alex

Link to comment

Here's a linky with some very geeky analysis of airplay streaming (from November 2011, so over a year ago)

 

Am I Experienced?: Possibility for Airplay/AirTunes to Airport Express with Hi-Res Audio

 

I just checked my audio midi control panel (I'm on mountain lion) and it says airplay to apple tv is limited to 44.1 (does not offer 48 as an option)

 

A: So, best guess (based on this and a bit of mcgoogling):

 

A1. Airplay streaming from computer - limited to 16/44.1 regardless of receiving device or streaming program.

 

A2. Apple TV - will always output 48 regardless of incoming stream.

 

A3. Airport Express - will always output 44.1 regardless of incoming stream.

 

B: Unsolved mysteries:

 

B1: Using Apple TV as zone player - if the file is 48, will it pass through untouched (which seems sensible) or will it, for some unknown reason, only get 44.1, which it will then upsample.

 

B2: Given point A1, i.e. Audirvana is not doing superior upsampling to 48 to stream to Apple TV, what is it doing differently? I note that other audiophile mac playback engines have for a long time declared support for airplay streaming (originally via airfoil before it became possible directly with mountain lion). However the developers have been a bit shy about what advantage this might give. It is the extra step of streaming as opposed to going direct to DAC that has me scratching my head.

 

Point taken that if the music sounds good... why worry. but I'm in geek mode on this particular topic :)

Link to comment
With respect to Apple TV's (ATV) Airplay feature and Audirvana. I can confirm that you will absolutely hear a marked improvement in sound quality

 

This is very good to hear. Thanks Alex.

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

Link to comment

Hey Alex,

If by "extremely intermittent" you meant drop outs, then I too am experiencing this. I just finished giving 1.4.2.1 a go and the drop outs are still there. I have read and tested that its a problem with ML 10.8.2 and iTunes 11.0.1

I'm back to putting Airfoil in the chain.

MacBook Pro (ML) > Amarra HiFi > Stello U3 > Moon 300D > W4S STI-1000 > Harbeth SHL5

Link to comment

A: So, best guess (based on this and a bit of mcgoogling):

 

A1. Airplay streaming from computer - limited to 16/44.1 regardless of receiving device or streaming program.

-True if the recipient device is an Airport Express (44.1KHz) or an AppleTV (any gen) 48KHz

-Other devices not by Apple may have a higher ceiling on this.

-keep in mind, CDs you purchase in a shop are 16bit/44.1KHz (redbook CDs)

-Music from the iTunes store are lesser quality but according to Apple they are indistinguishable from rebook CD spec.

-Red Book (CD standard), Red Book (CD standard) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

-Mastered for iTunes: Music as the Artist and Sound Engineer Intended http://images.apple.com/itunes/mastered-for-itunes/docs/mastered_for_itunes.pdf

 

A2. Apple TV - will always output 48 regardless of incoming stream.

-As per my Audiolab 8200CD display - it displays 48KHz when the optical output from my AppleTV goes live.

-As per the wikipedia page on AppleTV … "Optical audio (48 kHz fixed sample rate)"

-also on the wikipedia page … "On the Apple TV (2nd & 3rd generation), digital output audio is up-sampled to 48 kHz, including lossless CD rips at 44.1 kHz. Although this is a higher frequency and the difference is not audible in most cases, it means the audio is not 'bit perfect' which is often a goal for digital transmission of data."

-Consdering what was marked in bold above and especially the the "most cases" part, I wonder how to properly setup Audirvana or other software to mitigate this difference.

 

A3. Airport Express - will always output 44.1 regardless of incoming stream.

-Perhaps the Express is more well suited than a ATV for audio as it might be bit perfect.

 

B: Unsolved mysteries:

 

B1: Using Apple TV as zone player - if the file is 48, will it pass through untouched (which seems sensible) or will it, for some unknown reason, only get 44.1, which it will then upsample.

According to … AirPort Express - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "Standard audio CDs ripped in iTunes into Apple Lossless format streamed to the Airport Express will output a bit-for-bit identical bitstream when compared to the original CD (provided any sound enhancement settings in iTunes are disabled)."

 

B2: Given point A1, i.e. Audirvana is not doing superior upsampling to 48 to stream to Apple TV, what is it doing differently? I note that other audiophile mac playback engines have for a long time declared support for airplay streaming (originally via airfoil before it became possible directly with mountain lion). However the developers have been a bit shy about what advantage this might give. It is the extra step of streaming as opposed to going direct to DAC that has me scratching my head.

-Airplay has it's limitations because it has to send the bits that then get 'shuffled' around by, at elast we know, as AppleTV which would appear to interpolate from 44.1 to 48KHz. Remember let your ears be the judge of this. I would reckon that if you want bit perfect for the sake of being at peaces with the technical side of things and whether it psychologically influences your ears or not, it might be better to invest in an Apple Airport Express as it would be bit perfect when it comes to ALAC or FLAC, the latter doesn't work well inside iTunes, unless you research on plugins but I personally don't like that approach too much. Well, I've not researched it much but I've run across mention of them.

 

As far as the ATV is concerned, perhaps it can deliver a better up-sample or interpolation than AppleTV can deliver. The key would be to get Audirvana to deliver an ATV 48KHz but then you are indeed adding information that isn't there.

 

I would have had the luxury of testing this out, namely ATV versus Express but sadly, my express is not working correctly, all factory default resets have been attempted. I wish I could remember if my Audiolab once displayed 44.1 when the express was the streaming device.

 

The ideal in end, for the bit perfection, is to connect a computer directly to the DAC. The computer is much more flexible at sending out a digital stream in the native resolution and the DAC, if it has a good set of processors will lock in to that digital signal at a bit perfect lock without any interpolation but this would be an expensive proposition. Of course, one could always consider purchasing a second hand MacBook Air or MacBook Pro and fit it as much RAM and as little software as possible, dedicating it to a nice music box. I once thought about getting an Air.

 

This is definitely an interesting topic.

 

The moral of the story here, as far as ATV is concerned is, can we up-sample 44.1 to 48KHz using Audirvana without any degradation or is it simply the case that once any resampling goes on, we degrade the signal to the ATV. An Express might be better.

 

I maintain, your ear is the absolute judge on these matters and to test it, you need a relatively quite environment free of disturbance, at least while you test but then again, do we listen to music while doing nothing but sitting down completely absorbed? Not for the most part I would gather. :) Enjoy the music!

Best Regards[br]Alex

Link to comment

Hmm…That is really odd.

 

In my case it was like this:

Audirvana 1.4.1 showed no issues ever with wireless streaming via Airplay

 

Audirvana 1.4.2 was absolutely an issue. It only played with Airplay 5% of the time.

 

Audirvana 1.4.2.1 has resolved the issue completely. No more problems.

 

No, it was not dropouts. It would simply not switch to Airplay, it would remain playing from the internal iMac speaker system. 1.4.2.1 resolved this.

 

--

 

Are you suggesting that Airfoil in your cases allows Airplay to occur without issue? Please be honest because the symptoms do sound odd to me if that is the case. I would venture to say in this case that your issue stems from a software conflict of some kind.

 

--

 

Have you tried to isolate the issue in a new test user account?

 

Let me know.

Alex

Best Regards[br]Alex

Link to comment

 

Are you suggesting that Airfoil in your cases allows Airplay to occur without issue? Please be honest because the symptoms do sound odd to me if that is the case. I would venture to say in this case that your issue stems from a software conflict of some kind.

 

 

Let me know.

Alex

 

Airfoil solves the Airplay problem of drop outs. These drop outs occur when streaming from iTunes to the ATV3 without running Audirvana. I can duplicate this AND it's documented by many angry posters on Apple's discussion forums. It's an Airplay problem between iTunes and ML.

Airfoil solves this for me.

MacBook Pro (ML) > Amarra HiFi > Stello U3 > Moon 300D > W4S STI-1000 > Harbeth SHL5

Link to comment

Alex: I have had the same questions, and I have asked here, the Apple Bulletin Board, etc, and never got a definitive answer. I also asked whether 24 bit, 48kHz is possible when used as a zone player, or whether it is always 16 bit. The menu settings seem to imply that 24 bit is possible, but that isn't much to go on.

 

I do know, from experimenting, that ATV2 works significantly better, in terms of an uninterrupted audio stream, when operating in zone player mode instead of airplay streaming. This might be that ATV2 buffers the audio stream (there is an 8GB memory chip, and we know it will do so for video), of it might be avoiding several sequential resamplings.

 

I just tried a 24 bit, 48kHz track played via Audirvana in airplay mode. Audirvana only sees, and resamples it, to 44.1 kHz. Audio MIDI setup also reports 44.1 kHz as the only option. This seems a bit insane.

 

I've spent almost all of 2013 listening to my ATV2 in zone player mode in my bedroom. (I am trapped due to a broken ankle.) It is reasonably robust, even with these unfortunate restrictions.

Link to comment

I see, well I won't challenge your findings nor those 'angry' folks on Apple's discussion forums.

 

I've not heard of this issue.

 

The source of the problem could be one of a few things. If we look at things carefully, we have an Apple TV 3 involved (mine is an Apple TV 2 - I don't have this issue).

 

We have a router.

 

We have software on the mac.

 

We have protocols.

 

Is it safe to say that these people on Apple Discussions forums all have Apple TV 3s? If so, a new update might be needed and Apple will have to research what on the ATV 3 is wrong. There is no point guessing. If there are angry customers on that thread with ATV2s then it's not isolated to one ATV release in which case we have to narrow down software or other hardware as the culprit or both Apple TV models and or a combination of the same.

 

Personally, I would be contacting AppleCare and reporting this issue. Kindly demanding that this get reported to their engineering staff and that you are contacted with the engineering team's response. Unless Apple engineering already has enough information but needs time to fix it.

 

How airfoil irons it out is beyond me but obviously stick with it for now. Personally I would not be using it once Apple resolves the issue. Complexity can play against your audio experience. I actually wonder how Amarra asks users to use Airfoil. They have one of the most expensive software kits for playing music and then resort to a 3rd party for over the air streaming, something they don't engineer, and something they are unable to control.

 

I am not trying to put down how you use your system and I understand that caveat you are in but I just want to make a subtle point regarding simplicity and the virtues of the same. :)

Best Regards[br]Alex

Link to comment

souptin:

 

Just some more info for you.

 

Damien, the developer of Aidrvana put out this article, it's short but very intersting.

 

http://www.amr-audio.co.uk/large_image/MAC%20OSX%20audio%20players%20&%20Integer%20Mode.pdf

 

No, I haven't read it all yet.

 

He starts by saying…

 

"In computer audio, the player software replaces the CD drive as the transport feeding the DAC. Ensuring bit-perfect output of the original audio signal is only a pre-requisite, while minimizing jitter and RF interferences are still strongly needed.

This paper explains the main factors impacting sound quality on the computer side, and the means that have been implemented in Audirvana player and the AMR DP-777 DAC to boost the audio experience to the next level above the normal iTunes."

 

Alex

Best Regards[br]Alex

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...