Ravenna - audio over IP

[jeroen020]

Hi Chris and fellow members,

 

Did you hear about any new developments in the "Ravenna protocol" ?

 

I found a short video (dated 2010) where Genelec shows an "audio over IP" speaker.

Now they are waiting for so called AVB products to hit the market, although Merging already has one.

 

Is there anymore you can tell us about it ?

 

Kind regards,

 

Jeroen

[Silly goose]

Wow found this old thread. Only took 5 years but from what I hear 2017 will finally be the year when Ravenna becomes mainstream in the audiophile market. With up to 1000's of channels in perfect clock sync between endpoints (even over WAN), and up PCM 384 and DSD 256 support, what's not to like? For me personally I'm looking forward to it for active speakers. But for folks who prefer doing things the old fashioned way, there's many DAC manufacturers implementing Ravenna right now as well. 

 

Maybe I shouldn't be sharing this, but someone told me and I have a big mouth. And if any forum should be excited about this technology it should be this one. RMAF 2017 should be interesting!!

[Silly goose]

If anyone is looking for some active speakers already on the market with a Ravenna input option, have a look at these:

 

 

[Silly goose]

I just found this info on AES67 and AES70.

 

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57c6c266d2b8577131f53144/t/57ea75fb725e253ba4ac2522/1474983423357/AES67+and+AES70.pdf

 

AES70 is a smart controller for the network. I can just imagine the music lovers smart home of the future with sets of active speakers of all sizes in different rooms. All can be linked through AES67 and controlled with AES70. Manufacturers will be able to assist in tuning the speakers to the room acoustics of their clients from a central location. Firmware updates can be automatically downloaded to the speaker, and huge jumps in sound quality can be obtained for free. Wow, just wow! This might even get young people into high end audio again!

 

 

[Silly goose]

Cool example of a system in a restaurant completely networked with Ravenna and active speakers. 

 

https://www.ravenna-network.com/using-ravenna/case-studies/nallikari-restaurant/

[Silly goose]

Yamaha has hopped on the Ravenna train. Great video here explaining AES67:

 

 

[Serge_S]

On 04/13/2017 at 1:33 AM, Silly goose said:

But for folks who prefer doing things the old fashioned way, there's many DAC manufacturers implementing Ravenna right now as well.

 

Who else besides Merging? Thanks

[matthias]

Interesting discussion here (at the end of the thread):

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/ravenna-the-new-benchmark-in-consumer-digital-audio-systems/25606/170

 

Is Silly goose affiliated to Mike Davis ?

 

Matt

[k-man]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

 

 

Is Silly goose affiliated to Mike Davis ?

 

Matt

Yes, they go hand in hand in the same way as Alex C and John S. But they are banned (or muted) members and the other  a site sponsor. Kinda a Ying Yang situation.

[Superdad]

deleted

[Solstice380]

2 hours ago, k-man said:

Yes, they go hand in hand in the same way as Alex C and John S. But they are banned (or muted) members and the other  a site sponsor. Kinda a Ying Yang situation.

 

Well, the behaviors are quite different between the two pairs!!  Shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence unless you are pointing out contrasts.

[Keith_W]

All right, can someone please explain what the advantage of Ravenna is? I bought into the Ravenna system (I own a Merging NADAC MC-8), but I still don't understand what all the fuss is about. I have read a bit about Ravenna, but it seems as if its signature features: 

 

1. Use of standard network technology, 

2. IP based, 

3. Wide bandwidth (ability to support up to 768 digital channels), 

4. Very long cable runs, up to 100m, 

5. Carries its own clock signal allowing synchronization of multiple digital devices 

 

... do not seem relevant in the setting of home audio. For sure, in a studio setting, you may have multiple consoles and several people listening or editing the track at the same time. But in a home audio setting, your DAC is placed right next to the source. We are usually interested in single point to point connections only. So most of Ravenna's advantages would appear to be irrelevant for home audio folk. 

 

One supposed advantage of Ravenna / AES67 is that the receiver has a buffer and reclocks incoming data, making these devices insensitive to source induced jitter (someone correct me on this if I am wrong). If this is true, I don't seem to have noticed any benefit of it. If I pull the network cable while music is playing, the music stops immediately. If it has a buffer, it is either a tiny buffer or it has no buffer at all. 

 

In fact, I can think of a few disadvantages of using Ravenna for home audio. The Merging NADAC does not have USB input, you are forced to use Ravenna. This means it has to talk to your PC via network. This also means that you have to buy a managed switch, and learn how to configure it. For many of us, this is not difficult. But it is MUCH HARDER and involves more expense and more hardware than simply running a USB cable from your PC to your DAC! 

 

So ... why bother with Ravenna? This is a genuine question. 

[ElviaCaprice]

Simple answer, we don't.  Thus it's gone nowhere, as you can see, this thread started in 2012.

[The Computer Audiophile]

I have a video interview with Merging Technologies planned to cover Ravenna and educate people etc...

[Keith_W]

Chris, if you could post that, I would appreciate it very much. At the moment I think that Ravenna emphasizes the wrong things for home audio, and we end up paying for technology that we do not use. Yes, it is probably nice to know that my Ravenna cable can support 768 channels of audio. But who f*cking cares. What I care about is why Merging cheaped out and put a SMPS in my NADAC, but that is a rant for another thread. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, Keith_W said:

Chris, if you could post that, I would appreciate it very much. At the moment I think that Ravenna emphasizes the wrong things for home audio, and we end up paying for technology that we do not use. Yes, it is probably nice to know that my Ravenna cable can support 768 channels of audio. But who f*cking cares. What I care about is why Merging cheaped out and put a SMPS in my NADAC, but that is a rant for another thread. 

 

Ravenna is actually really nice for home audio for many reasons, that we will get into in the interview. 

 

P.S. Merging showed an upgraded power supply add-on at the Munich show. 

[davide256]

4 minutes ago, Keith_W said:

Chris, if you could post that, I would appreciate it very much. At the moment I think that Ravenna emphasizes the wrong things for home audio, and we end up paying for technology that we do not use. Yes, it is probably nice to know that my Ravenna cable can support 768 channels of audio. But who f*cking cares. What I care about is why Merging cheaped out and put a SMPS in my NADAC, but that is a rant for another thread. 

My impression is that Ravenna is focused on recording studio needs and it's use for home audio an accidental spinoff. In truth I think using existing fiber optic tech embedded into digital gear makes more sense and is far more affordable as a product approach in adding enhanced Ethernet capability to sale of a DAC/Streamer

[The Computer Audiophile]

15 minutes ago, davide256 said:

My impression is that Ravenna is focused on recording studio needs and it's use for home audio an accidental spinoff. In truth I think using existing fiber optic tech embedded into digital gear makes more sense and is far more affordable as a product approach in adding enhanced Ethernet capability to sale of a DAC/Streamer

 

I've never seen any fiber optic tech embedded into digital gear. Can you point me to someone using this? What enhancements does this offer?

[Jud]

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31447-native-fiberoptic-naa/#comment-651972

[davide256]

20 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

I've never seen any fiber optic tech embedded into digital gear. Can you point me to someone using this? What enhancements does this offer?

I haven't seen a DAC or streamer yet supporting the same pluggable optics used in routers. Doesn't make sense to me why an off the shelf universal technology isn't part of better audio gear I/O tech, that we still have to use media adaptors to get the benefits of optical Ethernet. 

[davide256]

2 minutes ago, davide256 said:

I haven't seen a DAC or streamer yet supporting the same pluggable optics used in routers. Doesn't make sense to me why an off the shelf universal technology isn't part of better audio gear I/O tech, that we still have to use media adaptors to get the benefits of optical Ethernet. 

As to benefits... how about no more "cable wars"

[Jud]

Benefits would be electrical isolation, no need for a wifi radio near your electronics (if that is a problem, as some folks feel) and future-proofing (single mode fiber if I remember right would support something ridiculous like 100G or even 1000G Ethernet).

[matthias]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Merging showed an upgraded power supply add-on at the Munich show. 

 

Chris,

IMO, a 10k DAC should have a proper PS as standard.

 

Matt

[The Computer Audiophile]

40 minutes ago, Jud said:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31447-native-fiberoptic-naa/#comment-651972

 

Oh yes, that one is really cool!

 

 

 

 

40 minutes ago, davide256 said:

I haven't seen a DAC or streamer yet supporting the same pluggable optics used in routers. Doesn't make sense to me why an off the shelf universal technology isn't part of better audio gear I/O tech, that we still have to use media adaptors to get the benefits of optical Ethernet. 

 

I hear you. However, when moving to a fiber based network (without converters) the switches need to be vastly different from something one can purchase at Best Buy. 

 

 

 

 

37 minutes ago, davide256 said:

As to benefits... how about no more "cable wars"

 

Should've happened with Toslink :~)

 

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, Jud said:

Benefits would be electrical isolation, no need for a wifi radio near your electronics (if that is a problem, as some folks feel) and future-proofing (single mode fiber if I remember right would support something ridiculous like 100G or even 1000G Ethernet).

 

I hear ya. 

 

 

 

 

 

27 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Chris,

IMO, a 10k DAC should have a proper PS as standard.

 

Matt

 

I don't disagree. 

 

 

 

[Jud]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

However, when moving to a fiber based network (without converters) the switches need to be vastly different from something one can purchase at Best Buy. 

 

I don't know, @jabbr gives the impression it won't cost that much.  If it does, I'm asking him for money!