HQPlayer's Network Audio Adapter

[4est]

I am confused Miska. Are you saying it does not support i2s? I'll cancel my order, and try one you suggest if that is the case. It did seem too good to be true.

[Miska]

I am confused Miska. Are you saying it does not support i2s? I'll cancel my order, and try one you suggest if that is the case. It did seem too good to be true.

 

It supports what ever the Linux kernel drivers support. The default driver supports HDMI and headphone/line output that are on the board. Looking at the Raspberry Pi forum, people seem to be in process of modifying the default driver to support I2S for the purpose of using it with a DAC. The easier part seems to be to use it in "PCM" mode which doesn't have a master clock (only bit clock, word clock and data line). There's also discussion about slaving the I2S to external clock.

 

My stuff is about getting audio to the drivers. What kind of hardware is behind the driver is outside of this scope.

 

For my own purposes I write the necessary ALSA drivers to support the particular DAC chip I have connected (programming the settings of a DAC chip over I2C or SPI) in a certain way to the specific SoC. This is the BSP part I was talking about, adaptation work to make use of certain specific hardware configuration.

 

I got my Raspberry Pi couple of weeks ago, so I haven't done much on it yet, powered it up first time last night to compile NAA software package. BeagleBoard and FOX have been in active use for fairly long time.

 

If you want to use other than the on-board devices by connecting to the pin headers, be prepared to write your own custom drivers for your particular connection. Pin headers lead to the SoC's GPIO data lines which you can define to do all kinds of different things. By following the hardware forums, you may find out useful drivers someone else has made for similar purpose though...

[4est]

Obviously I am a bit confused, but in either event it is only $45 including shipping.

[manisandher]

I recently received a PM asking my thoughts on the NAA vs. a direct PC connection to the DAC. I kind of did this when I first received my NAA bootable USB stick from Miska, but even then only in passing.

 

With my small 'vinyl digitization studio' now all up and running, I've spent a while revisiting the NAA vs. the direct PC connection.

 

 

You can see the two CAPS machines that I'm using on the bottom shelf of the equipment support. The one on the right is a regular CAPSv2 (with SOtM USB card and SATA filter) - fed by a 12V SMPS sitting outside the 'studio'. The one on the left was my original CAPSv1, but is now being used as the NAA, with all devices having been removed - fed by a Paul Hynes PS sitting outside the 'studio'. I'm using the CAPSv2 as the host computer for HQPlayer NAA and also for HQPlayer Desktop (direct connection). The NAA is connected to the Mytek via Firewire and the CAPSv2 to the Mytek via USB2. The output of the Mytek feeds a Berning Siegfried 300B amp driving a pair of AKG K-1000 headphones.

 

All the music sits on a NAS drive located about 5m from the 'studio'. Incidentally, the 'studio' is totally lined in wire mesh connected to ground, acting as a sort of a Faraday cage. I have all linear power supplies and SMPSs running off two independent 5KVA balanced transformers respectively.

 

So, what can I say about the difference in SQ between the NAA and the direct CAPSv2 connection? Well, it's hard for me to put into words the exact magnitude of the difference. 'Enormous' just doesn't seem to do it justice. A 'quantum leap' maybe more accurate. Quite simply, the CAPSv2 produces a (very nice) sound. The NAA produces music. I'm not kidding now: if you offered me a $10K DAC and the CAPSv2 or a $2K DAC and the NAA (plus a PC on which to host HQPlayer NAA), I'd take the latter any day of the year.

 

If you have a DAC compatible with the NAA (visit the Signalyst website for a list of known DACs), you should be breaking Miska's door down to get hold of an NAA bootable USB stick.

 

Mani.

[ted_b]

Mani,

Very interesting. I ran the NAA while i had the Auraliti PK90USB in the system, and the differences were subtle at the time. I think maybe now I will revisit in the Win 8 world.

 

Questions (for you and/or Miska):

* does it make any sense to put a SOtM USB card in the NAA (i.e not in the source since that is only network-connected)?

* how are you (or would you envision) browsing a large library from your listening position in a main (i.e not headphone or desktop) system? It seemed (months ago) that Miska's software is not very GUI or remote friendly, compared to things like J River/jremote, etc.

[manisandher]

Hi Ted,

 

I'm still not in the Win 8 world (yet), so it could well be that your CAPSv2.1 (is that what you call it?) is substantially better directly connected than my CAPSv2. Incidentally, I just compared the CAPSv2/HQPlayer using WASAPI vs. ASIO. I have a strong preference for the latter and it closes the gap between the direct connection and the NAA substantially, but I still prefer the NAA. Although ASIO fixes much of WASAPI's dullness and lifelessness, it seems to introduce an edge to the sound. Also, the bass seems less extended and powerful than it is through the NAA.

 

In answer to your questions though:

 

1. If Linux USB drivers exist for your (Meitner?) DAC, it may well be worth trying the SOtM USB card in the NAA. I know Miska has been working on this and am waiting to hear whether he's got Mytek Linux USB drivers working. If he has, I will try this myself.

 

2. Sorry, no idea - I've never used HQPlayer Embedded, but I can imagine what you mean just from a library management point of view. I know this hasn't been one of Miska's top priorities, but maybe he should revisit it sometime.

 

Mani.

[ted_b]

 

1. If Linux USB drivers exist for your (Meitner?) DAC, it may well be worth trying the SOtM USB card in the NAA. I know Miska has been working on this and am waiting to hear whether he's got Mytek Linux USB drivers working. If he has, I will try this myself.

 

Not sure I follow. Why would I want a Linux driver when I'm running both the CAPS and likely the NAA in Windows? BTW, the Linux NAA (Auraliti) worked fine with my Meitner. But anyway why Linux rather than Windows?

 

2. Sorry, no idea - I've never used HQPlayer Embedded, but I can imagine what you mean just from a library management point of view. I know this hasn't been one of Miska's top priorities, but maybe he should revisit it sometime.

 

With 850+ DSD albums ripped and tens of thousands of 24 bit and redbook tracks, there is NO way I am not going to have a convenient remote solution. And running a VNC on my iPAd and CAPS to see HQPlayer seems like robbing Peter (running VNC overhead) to pay Paul (NAA approach). Plus, even VNC'd desktop HQplayer seems very rudimentary...sorry. So, like your comparison ($10k dac vs $2k DAC and NAA) if I have to have a laptop on my lap at the listening position for an HQPlayer/NAA solution vs CAPS V2+ and J River/jremote i will take latter everyday. Of course, I haven't heard your sonic comparison, but I know what I will put up with.

[manisandher]

Not sure I follow. Why would I want a Linux driver when I'm running both the CAPS and likely the NAA in Windows? BTW, the Linux NAA (Auraliti) worked fine with my Meitner. But anyway why Linux rather than Windows?

 

The CAPS is connected to the NAA via ethernet. You do not need to have any audio drivers installed in the CAPS unless you use a direct connection. In order to connect the NAA to the DAC, you will need to have the appropriate Linux firewire or USB driver installed in the NAA.

 

Mani.

[ted_b]

The CAPS is connected to the NAA via ethernet. You do not need to have any audio drivers installed in the CAPS unless you use a direct connection. In order to connect the NAA to the DAC, you will need to have the appropriate Linux firewire or USB driver installed in the NAA.

 

Mani.

 

Ah, so I misread the NAA specs. i thought Miska had a windows version. My bad. Of course if linux is the only version, then linux drivers. Meitner works.

[manisandher]

A 'Windows NAA' would kind of defeat the object of having an NAA - it's sole purpose is to isolate the DAC from the influence of the OS as much as possible, so an ultra-low footprint Linux is the only way to go.

 

Ted, when you said you ran an NAA while you had the Auraliti PK90USB in the system, how exactly did you have things set up? I mean, did you get a bootable USB stick from Miska and use this with the Auraliti to convert the Auraliti to an NAA? How did you then connect the DAC to the NAA? It must have been firewire, no?

 

Mani.

[Miska]

* does it make any sense to put a SOtM USB card in the NAA (i.e not in the source since that is only network-connected)?

 

Yes, it makes sense for PC-based NAA when using USB connection.

 

* how are you (or would you envision) browsing a large library from your listening position in a main (i.e not headphone or desktop) system? It seemed (months ago) that Miska's software is not very GUI or remote friendly, compared to things like J River/jremote, etc.

 

With the HQPlayer Desktop recommended remote control is to use the Microsoft's Remote Desktop Client. Our family has been also using the Mac version on MacBook Air. Works fine because the GUI is lightweight with minimal re-draws. I'm not fan of VNC's protocol...

 

I have fairly large collection and the HQPlayer Desktop works just fine for me, because of the three filters in main window (artist/performer/album). Those allow basic asterisk style filters like Artist: "pink*" Album: "*wall*", or by prefixing with hash mark (#) you can use regular expressions for more powerful filters. And since content is expressed as a tree model in artist/performer/album/song structure (idendepent of where the files are located), it should be fairly quick to browse too. In the library editor you can add directory trees by scanning starting from given base folder. The already known leaf (content) folders are ignored so you won't get doubles even if you rescan already known tree. If some metadata is incorrect, you can edit the read metadata by double-clicking on the cells in the library editor. Editing won't touch the original files, just modifies the metadata stored separately by the HQPlayer...

 

HQPlayer Embedded separates the player into headless server and touch-optimized GUIs. The GUI works also with mouse, but is designed specifically for touch. It is probably most convenient with Windows 8 (non-RT) tablets. It supports both 4:3 and 16:9 display ratios with different layouts. Embedded server uses same configuration file as the Desktop version and is usually most convenient to initially configure using the Desktop version smaller modifications can be made by hand with text editor.

[ted_b]

A 'Windows NAA' would kind of defeat the object of having an NAA - it's sole purpose is to isolate the DAC from the influence of the OS as much as possible, so an ultra-low footprint Linux is the only way to go.

 

Ted, when you said you ran an NAA while you had the Auraliti PK90USB in the system, how exactly did you have things set up? I mean, did you get a bootable USB stick from Miska and use this with the Auraliti to convert the Auraliti to an NAA? How did you then connect the DAC to the NAA? It must have been firewire, no?

 

Mani.

 

As per page one here (and below link) the Auraliti PK90USB comes pre-configured as a Signalyst NAA. Simply do not run the MPD server in it and it defaults to an NAA. Easy. USB of course. HQplayer was on my plain ole desktop (Windows vista, Dell Vostro general use) sitting in my home office.

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/native-dsd-files-hqplayer-and-mytek-stereo192-dsd-10294/index4.html#post165564

[Jud]

Let me see if I am getting the topology right, and then a further question:

 

I would run HQPlayer on my desktop upstairs with Lubuntu as OS, let us say, and then have a Raspberry Pi as NAA connected via USB to my DAC downstairs, controlled with a suitable remote app (would Win RDC work here?).

 

Should a DAC that doesn't require custom Linux drivers for USB work (e.g., my Schiit Bifrost)?

[manisandher]

Yes, it makes sense for PC-based NAA when using USB connection.

 

Miska, when you talk about a 'PC-based NAA', I'm assuming you mean a machine with a regular mobo/CPU, as opposed to something like a Raspberry Pi, right? Some people might confuse 'PC-based NAA' with 'Windows-based NAA' and I just wanted to be clear.

My other question: have you got the Mytek Linux USB drivers working yet? I'd love to try this...

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

Let me see if I am getting the topology right...

 

Hi Jud, of course you should wait to hear from the horse's mouth. But my own 2c is that you would connect the desktop to the Raspberry Pi NAA via LAN and then the NAA to the DAC via a short USB... if the necessary Linux USB drivers were available for your DAC.

 

Mani.

[Miska]

I would run HQPlayer on my desktop upstairs with Lubuntu as OS, let us say, and then have a Raspberry Pi as NAA connected via USB to my DAC downstairs, controlled with a suitable remote app (would Win RDC work here?).

 

Yes, you would be controlling the HQPlayer running on the desktop. NAA itself in turn is handled by HQPlayer.

 

At the moment I don't recommend Raspberry Pi until the USB hardware issues it has have been sorted out (mine is older hardware revision, newest one may be better). But I have pretty nice setups with BeagleBone powered by four AA batteries and another one using BeagleBoard xM. Of course AA battery powered solution works only when the connected to a USB device that doesn't draw any significant current from the USB... For a Firewire device like Mytek something like PC-based main board is needed to be able to accommodate Firewire adapter.

 

Should a DAC that doesn't require custom Linux drivers for USB work (e.g., my Schiit Bifrost)?

 

Yes, although I remember Demian mentioning something about compatibility problems between the Linux driver and the CMedia chip used in Bitfrost, but it may have been solved since, I don't know.

 

There's now also driver for M2Tech devices, so those also work.

[Miska]

Miska, when you talk about a 'PC-based NAA', I'm assuming you mean a machine with a regular mobo/CPU, as opposed to something like a Raspberry Pi, right? Some people might confuse 'PC-based NAA' with 'Windows-based NAA' and I just wanted to be clear.

 

Yes, exactly, "x86 architecture" hardware as opposed to "ARM architecture" like Raspberry or Beagle*.

 

My other question: have you got the Mytek Linux USB drivers working yet? I'd love to try this...

 

Kind of, it would probably work with latest NAA due to the way NAA deals with the driver. But it doesn't work with HQPlayer Desktop's Linux-version. And it's a bit tricky since I cannot redistribute the needed firmware files (for the FPGA and Cypress USB MCU), which the driver uploads to the DAC every time the DAC is started or re-connected.

[Jud]

Apologies in advance, I've got a bunch more questions that I'm pretty sure would be obvious to others, but not me.

 

Yes, you would be controlling the HQPlayer running on the desktop. NAA itself in turn is handled by HQPlayer.

 

At the moment I don't recommend Raspberry Pi until the USB hardware issues it has have been sorted out (mine is older hardware revision, newest one may be better). But I have pretty nice setups with BeagleBone powered by four AA batteries and another one using BeagleBoard xM. Of course AA battery powered solution works only when connected to a USB device that doesn't draw any significant current from the USB... For a Firewire device like Mytek something like PC-based main board is needed to be able to accommodate Firewire adapter.

 

All right, the battery powered version sounds like something I may be interested in. A bit less expensive than the XM version of the board, too. The Bifrost uses wall power (IEC plug) so no worries about current draw, and I'm assuming the 5v from the batteries is enough for the BeagleBone to let the DAC know it's there. But here I start running into problems with my thought process. How do I get wi-fi, battery power and a usb connection to my DAC all at the same time? Wi-fi seems to use USB or a cape, battery power appears to use a cape....

 

I'm supposing I would install the HQPlayer on Lubuntu on the desktop. Would the daemon also be installed on the desktop, or on the BeagleBone? Can Angstrom Linux remain installed on the BeagleBone, or does it need another OS and/or application software?

 

Yes, although I remember Demian mentioning something about compatibility problems between the Linux driver and the CMedia chip used in Bitfrost, but it may have been solved since, I don't know.

 

There's now also driver for M2Tech devices, so those also work.

 

I'm hoping a new USB board for the Bifrost, which should be available very soon if it is not already, will resolve any remaining problem - it has been updated at least to the extent of allowing use of the USB input with a 176.4kHz signal, which is not possible with the original board.

[Miska]

The Bifrost uses wall power (IEC plug) so no worries about current draw, and I'm assuming the 5v from the batteries is enough for the BeagleBone to let the DAC know it's there. But here I start running into problems with my thought process. How do I get wi-fi, battery power and a usb connection to my DAC all at the same time? Wi-fi seems to use USB or a cape, battery power appears to use a cape....

 

In any case BeagleBone accepts 5 VDC through a standard round socket, so if more power is needed a separate linear PSU is also good option. Another option is to use split USB wire with separate power feed. So there are many possible options. I don't recommend using WiFi because it would need extra configuration and such, my current OS builds have WiFi support disabled. Current one is plug-and-play.

 

This is how my current lab test system looks like:

 

I'm supposing I would install the HQPlayer on Lubuntu on the desktop. Would the daemon also be installed on the desktop, or on the BeagleBone? Can Angstrom Linux remain installed on the BeagleBone, or does it need another OS and/or application software?

 

"Network Audio Daemon" runs on the BeagleBone. Ångström can be possibly used with the daemon binary I'm currently using. However I have a complete custom OS build for the NAA use. Since BeagleBone boots from a microSD card you can easily have number of different cards to play with. Plus there's a package for Ubuntu on my website already.

 

I have not yet decided a distribution model for the BeagleBone OS build, but probably I can at least mail a ready made microSD for some reasonable compensation. (a bit of Linux command line work is needed for creating the microSD)

[Jud]

In any case BeagleBone accepts 5 VDC through a standard round socket, so if more power is needed a separate linear PSU is also good option. Another option is to use split USB wire with separate power feed. So there are many possible options. I don't recommend using WiFi because it would need extra configuration and such, my current OS builds have WiFi support disabled. Current one is plug-and-play.

 

OK, so since my desktop that would be running HQPlayer is upstairs in my office and my main audio system where I'd want the NAA is downstairs in the family room, I suppose I would need an Airport Express or something similar (or even my MacBook Pro) from which to run an Ethernet cable to the BeagleBone. If a router, any recommendations for something good and inexpensive? What is your assessment, if you have one, of the sonic tradeoff of having WiFi running on the BeagleBone versus having the BeagleBone connected via an Ethernet cable to a laptop or something plugged into the mains? Would such an arrangement cause any problem at all for HQPlayer to recognize the NAA on the network?

 

Mani, how is your NAA hooked up to Ethernet?

 

This is how my current lab test system looks like:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3316[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

"Network Audio Daemon" runs on the BeagleBone. Ångström can be possibly used with the daemon binary I'm currently using. However I have a complete custom OS build for the NAA use. Since BeagleBone boots from a microSD card you can easily have number of different cards to play with. Plus there's a package for Ubuntu on my website already.

 

I have not yet decided a distribution model for the BeagleBone OS build, but probably I can at least mail a ready made microSD for some reasonable compensation. (a bit of Linux command line work is needed for creating the microSD)

 

Depending on what the command line work is, it's possible I could do some or even all of it myself, though if not I certainly don't mind compensating you. I'll PM you to talk about details.

[Miska]

OK, so since my desktop that would be running HQPlayer is upstairs in my office and my main audio system where I'd want the NAA is downstairs in the family room, I suppose I would need an Airport Express or something similar (or even my MacBook Pro) from which to run an Ethernet cable to the BeagleBone. If a router, any recommendations for something good and inexpensive? What is your assessment, if you have one, of the sonic tradeoff of having WiFi running on the BeagleBone versus having the BeagleBone connected via an Ethernet cable to a laptop or something plugged into the mains? Would such an arrangement cause any problem at all for HQPlayer to recognize the NAA on the network?

 

NAA needs to have a DHCP server on the network, so I usually recommend to just connect it to a normal home network hosted by a router/firewall that has a built-in switch, something like Airport Extreme, but there are many other suitable and less expensive devices (Cisco, NetGear, D-Link, Zyxel, etc). Airport Express configured as a bridge could work too, I have not tested such configuration though.

 

I'm a bit concerned about having WiFi cape on a BeagleBone or use of WiFi USB adapter, it could work, but it could cause quality degrading amount of RF noise too...

 

I have entire house covered by CAT6 network cabling with a gigabit switch in the central patch bay. My switch has VLAN and QoS support. But this is cheapest media/QoS gigabit switch I know of:

GS-105S | ZyXEL

[Jud]

Sounds good, I have a home network with a Netgear N900 upstairs that hands out the internal DHCP addresses. There is an Airport Express downstairs that currently connects a PS3 to the home network, but the PS3 is rarely in use, only when playing SACDs. So it would be easy enough to plug the Ethernet cable from the Airport Express into the NAA. Connecting to the MacBook Pro Ethernet port, if possible, could be interesting since the MBP can be run on battery power, but I wonder if that would work or necessarily make for better sound.

 

Anyway, I can certainly provide a wired Ethernet connection for the NAA. So let's do this thing! :-)

[lkong]

pi's hardware is able to output i2s.

problem no is conflicting irq, hopefully can be solved in new 3.6 kernel

[Jud]

Sounds good, I have a home network with a Netgear N900 upstairs that hands out the internal DHCP addresses. There is an Airport Express downstairs that currently connects a PS3 to the home network, but the PS3 is rarely in use, only when playing SACDs. So it would be easy enough to plug the Ethernet cable from the Airport Express into the NAA. Connecting to the MacBook Pro Ethernet port, if possible, could be interesting since the MBP can be run on battery power, but I wonder if that would work or necessarily make for better sound.

 

Anyway, I can certainly provide a wired Ethernet connection for the NAA. So let's do this thing! :-)

 

So I now have a BeagleBoardXM on which I've installed a minimal Lubuntu and the Network Audio Daemon. (My tremendous gratitude to Robert C. Nelson for his fairly foolproof scripts, which made this easy, as well as to Miska for pointing out Nelson's page to me, answering a large number of more or less clueless questions I had, and not least for developing HQPlayer, the Network Audio Daemon, and the idea of the NAA.) I've tested HQPlayer's network audio (running on Lubuntu on my desktop in the upstairs office) with the Daemon running on the BBXM, and it works. Tomorrow evening I'll hook up the BBXM to my main rig downstairs and see if that works.

 

Another question at this point: Is there any reason I would *not* want the Network Audio Daemon on the BBXM to automatically start at login? If automatic startup at login is desirable, what's the best/easiest way to do this?

[Miska]

Another question at this point: Is there any reason I would *not* want the Network Audio Daemon on the BBXM to automatically start at login? If automatic startup at login is desirable, what's the best/easiest way to do this?

 

By default it should automatically start already at boot time, no need to login at all...