Civility

[wdw]

We just witnessed an innocent thread posted from an exuberant music lover who simply wanted to let us in on the skinny, some new cables, but the thread had to be shut done...well I want this gentleman to continue to post

 

To crudely paraphrase a great jazz lyric ....

 

Why anyone wants to step on the seams of anyone's dreams, is over my head....

 

WDW

[Jeff In San Diego]

Chis decided to close a recent "yet another cable thread". Those of us who posted to the thread can't help but wonder if it was our post that "put it over the edge". It would be easy to take the closure personally. As a former moderator of a huge RV related forum, I have some experience with just how thankless the job of moderator can be.

 

I would say that for an area of interest that is so deeply steeped in "opinion", this place is remarkably civil. No doubt that is due in no small part to the excellent moderation. Thanks Chris.

 

That said, I found myself surprised that this particular thread got closed when it it did. Seems to have touched a nerve for you Chris. While I fully support your decision to close it...I would invite some more explanation of what moved you to close it when you did. If those of us who post the most often know what crosses the line for you we can do our best to avoid pushing it too far.

 

For me, a thread "jumps the shark" when it looses sight of the topic and moves over into "ad hominem" "arguments" that call into question the sanity or intelligence of the OP or another poster...rather than discussing the product or its company.

 

What was the "last straw" for you on this one?

[ringenesherre]

I guess I have to feel partly guilty here. I jumped at it :-)

 

Then, I wouldn't have bothered reading it if the title wouldn't have been about a "product" and the preview was about two DACs. I try to steer clear of cable threads for the most.

 

But then there is a lot of "AMAZING" and the usual story of accidentally finding the holy grail that looks so much like marketing to me (even if it turned out that it wasn't).

 

Finally, the OP wrote "although I am not sure how their technology can be applied to balanced cables". Which was giving me an idea that he looked at their technology description and genuinely considered it to be worthwhile.

 

As I wrote in my second thread post, I didn't want to debate the listening experience (why would I?), but give a feedback on the technology.

 

As for tone, this tone wouldn't feel rough to me in a dinner conversation. Then I'm German and live in Denmark ...

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

P.S.: Good that it was closed, because everything was said after the two first posts.

[wgscott]

I cynically thought it was a free advertisement.

 

Maybe it was actually a paid advertisement.

[Julf]

As I wrote in my second thread post, I didn't want to debate the listening experience (why would I?), but give a feedback on the technology.

 

Indeed, I don't think any of us denied or doubted the OP's subjective experience in any way - our comments all had to do with how the manufacturer/vendor was describing the technology. So if we stepped on the seams of anyone's dreams, it was the rather strange daydreams of some marketing person...

 

[Jud]

Good topic. Yeah, I jumped too, and not delicately - but not at the OP's original post in that thread. Rather, it was his reaction to the criticism, when he said that his amazing cables weren't any different than all other audio industry technical explanations, because all of them were mere hype, that I objected to.

 

We all I think know of reputable designers/manufacturers with sober claims based in reality. And moreover, I also think there are instances where designers while "fooling around" happen on something that sounds really good, but don't know exactly what the reason is, or figure a technical explanation won't be understandable to the public, or that it will give competitors a leg up in discovering the "secret sauce," and so they resort to the type of BS that makes us all cringe.

 

So as far as I know, maybe the cables lauded by the OP really do sound amazing. I've certainly heard things the other way round (cables costing literally tens of thousands that didn't float my boat whatsoever). Even at the low low price of $1600 they're out of my personal audio budget right now (at least for cables), but heck, they could sound wonderful. If presented with a reasonable opportunity, I'd be curious to hear them.

[bdiament]

Hi WDW,

 

We just witnessed an innocent thread posted from an exuberant music lover who simply wanted to let us in on the skinny, some new cables, but the thread had to be shut done...well I want this gentleman to continue to post

 

To crudely paraphrase a great jazz lyric ....

 

Why anyone wants to step on the seams of anyone's dreams, is over my head....

 

WDW

 

Thank you for that.

I'm with you 100%.

 

It is sad that an enthusiast can't put up a post expressing that enthusiasm, without all the self-appointed "experts" and "scientists" chiming, saying the (seemingly pre-scripted) same things they say in other threads, like the talking heads on a TV "news" show.

 

And I'm sure they'll be back here, in this thread, with their "yes, but" responses, saying they agree BUT... (fill in the blah, blah, blah). One thing I never read in any of these folks' posts is a sense of joy regarding listening to music or in using their audio systems. They don't speak of their own *experience* and always react --and I do mean *react*-- when someone else writes of *their* experience. They're always here, ostensibly, to provide "clarity" and "truth" to the rest of us ignorant masses who are so dumb, we just want to share our happiness and our discoveries in music and audio. Only thing is, not one of them seems to recognize just how transparent they are.

 

And now they're choosing which *words* a person should or shouldn't use to describe *their own experience* and *their own feelings*. If anything is AMAZING, I would say that is. Amazingly transparent.

 

It isn't my forum and I don't envy anyone who tried to maintain one in audio. Still, I see this becoming a real problem here at CA and have taken to not participating in threads where these folks are allowed to linger and essentially, pee in the audio pool. Many a time, I visit and all I see is the same old, same old from the same old group of individuals. Then I just leave, thinking "this place used to be fun". (I often wish individuals were "locked" - or "deleted" - rather than threads.)

 

I hope the trend can be reversed. The Internet doesn't need another audio argument fest. It does need an audio forum where folks can freely share *their own* experiences and ideas in an atmosphere of fun and *real* mutual respect, which I'll define partially as simply knowing when to *not* post.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[Paul R]

Well said.

Paul

Hi WDW,

 

 

 

Thank you for that.

I'm with you 100%.

 

It is sad that an enthusiast can't put up a post expressing that enthusiasm, without all the self-appointed "experts" and "scientists" chiming, saying the (seemingly pre-scripted) same things they say in other threads, like the talking heads on a TV "news" show.

 

And I'm sure they'll be back here, in this thread, with their "yes, but" responses, saying they agree BUT... (fill in the blah, blah, blah). One thing I never read in any of these folks' posts is a sense of joy regarding listening to music or in using their audio systems. They don't speak of their own *experience* and always react --and I do mean *react*-- when someone else writes of *their* experience. They're always here, ostensibly, to provide "clarity" and "truth" to the rest of us ignorant masses who are so dumb, we just want to share our happiness and our discoveries in music and audio. Only thing is, not one of them seems to recognize just how transparent they are.

 

And now they're choosing which *words* a person should or shouldn't use to describe *their own experience* and *their own feelings*. If anything is AMAZING, I would say that is. Amazingly transparent.

 

It isn't my forum and I don't envy anyone who tried to maintain one in audio. Still, I see this becoming a real problem here at CA and have taken to not participating in threads where these folks are allowed to linger and essentially, pee in the audio pool. Many a time, I visit and all I see is the same old, same old from the same old group of individuals. Then I just leave, thinking "this place used to be fun". (I often wish individuals were "locked" - or "deleted" - rather than threads.)

 

I hope the trend can be reversed. The Internet doesn't need another audio argument fest. It does need an audio forum where folks can freely share *their own* experiences and ideas in an atmosphere of fun and *real* mutual respect, which I'll define partially as simply knowing when to *not* post.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[Melvin]

I have to admit my surprise (and delight) in finding the thread locked so quickly. Hopefully he will continue to post here nonetheless. Not sure, but maybe a Blog post would have been a more suitable place to express such exuberance over a product, seen as more of a mini-review rather than promoting a product. I don't know .. just rambling.

[4est]

Well put Barry!

[souptin]

That said, I found myself surprised that this particular thread got closed when it it did. Seems to have touched a nerve for you Chris. While I fully support your decision to close it...I would invite some more explanation of what moved you to close it when you did. If those of us who post the most often know what crosses the line for you we can do our best to avoid pushing it too far.

 

I agree with this (actually with this entire post, I'm just selectively quoting for brevity).

 

The http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/amazing-new-product-13421/ topic struck me as fairly civil by the typical standards of cable discussions, right up until the last post which, no doubt, was just a momentary loss of temper.

 

@bdiamet - I read your contributions here on CA with great interest, but in this case I respectfully suggest that your words here: "I often wish individuals were "locked" - or "deleted" - rather than threads" are not as well chosen as usual. The "ignore user" feature on this forum, when used tactfully of course, is a very effective alternative.

[bdiament]

Hi souptin,

 

...@bdiamet - I read your contributions here on CA with great interest, but in this case I respectfully suggest that your words here: "I often wish individuals were "locked" - or "deleted" - rather than threads" are not as well chosen as usual. The "ignore user" feature on this forum, when used tactfully of course, is a very effective alternative.

 

I understand and respect that you may feel differently but my words were chosen quite deliberately.

 

The "ignore user" feature does have its purpose but my contention is certain behaviors are deleterious to CA as a whole and ignoring them will harm, not help this forum.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[Julf]

Barry,

 

my contention is certain behaviors are deleterious to CA as a whole and ignoring them will harm, not help this forum.

 

I think we all agree. Unfortunately we probably all disagree as to who and what should be allowed, and what/who should be banned. And why would my opinion be any more important or relevant than yours? Ah, the curse of democracy...

[bdiament]

Hi Julf,

 

Barry,

 

I think we all agree...

 

If we all agreed, the situation that precipitated my post would not have arisen.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[wgscott]

The problem is that some of these vendors cross the line from hype into the realm of consumer fraud. This is most unambiguously identifiable when they make silly claims about basic physics that any high school student could identify as BS. Although I didn't personally call them out on it, I would have if I had seen it first. This has nothing to to with incivility.

[4est]

The problem is that some of these vendors cross the line from hype into the realm of consumer fraud. This is most unambiguously identifiable when they make silly claims about basic physics that any high school student could identify as BS. Although I didn't personally call them out on it, I would have if I had seen it first. This has nothing to to with incivility.

 

Not for one moment did I think Priaptor was selling me something.

[bdiament]

Hi wgscott,

 

In my opinion, it actually *does* have to do with incivility - to the OP and to those who want to hear what he had to say.

 

The original poster in that thread was expressing excitement about a product he experienced. I may have missed it but I really don't recall his asking if anyone felt skeptical of the manufacturer's claims. The thread he started was about his *experience*. Almost immediately, the cowboys came out with guns blazing, shooting up the thread with the usual accusations toward the manufacturer.

 

From where I sit, this was most UNcivil, as I said, to the OP and to those of us who want to hear what he has to say.

As I see it, a separate thread could have been started to spit the anti-manufacturer vitriol, without having to crap on the existing thread - something, I'm sad to say, which is occurring here with increasing frequency.

 

It is the same old same old from the same old sources and it really does seem pre-scripted. "BS", "where's the proof", "anecdotal reports...", "objective", "science", "subjective", "voodoo". It is a tired story by now. Very, very tired.

I'm all for everyone having their say but I'm also all for doing the saying in a new thread if necessary, so as not to crap on every report of listening experience someone brings here.

 

Speaking for myself (and I would guess at least one or two others), I don't want the "protection" from user reports or from manufacturer's statements. I can judge for myself and I'm sure others are equally capable.

 

The thing is, the "protectors" never seem to notice their impact. Clearly the OP of *this* thread felt there was incivility and I posted here to agree.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.colm

[4est]

The problem is that some of these vendors cross the line from hype into the realm of consumer fraud. This is most unambiguously identifiable when they make silly claims about basic physics that any high school student could identify as BS. Although I didn't personally call them out on it, I would have if I had seen it first. This has nothing to to with incivility.

 

Now that I think of it, this does have to do with civility. As far as I can tell, most of those whom had "issues" with the marketing hype, are also those whom do not "believe" in audiophile cabling. Civility is partly staying out of somewhere one doesn't belong, as I doubt if ANY cable manufacturer could provide sufficient evidence in their products to satisfy the non believers.

[bdiament]

Hi 4est,

 

Not for one moment did I think Priaptor was selling me something.

 

I think I know why. You didn't come here with guns drawn and trigger fingers itching. ;-}

I'll bet you even read the entirety of his post before you responded.

 

Me too.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[wgscott]

Nobody has asked the manufacturer to supply an explanation for why their cable might sound better. (Knowing from my own experience how things can go wrong from imperfect soldering, I personally would be more than satisfied with a claim of high quality control.) These are claims the manufacturers make, simply to bamboozle people.

 

I do agree it is best not to hijack someone else's thread to draw attention to this stuff.

 

I've been posting some of the more humorous examples on my CA blog, eg:

 

Quantum Mechanics and Burn-In - Blogs - Computer Audiophile

 

Quantum-mechanical tunneling and cables - Blogs - Computer Audiophile

 

Also, in the case of Zu speakers, I am not questioning that they don't sound good. I am even thinking of buying some. But their explanation is total BS (and actually put me off an impulse-purchase).

[bdiament]

Hi wgscott,

 

Nobody has asked the manufacturer to supply an explanation for why their cable might sound better....

 

That would make sense to me, if I believed you've consulted everybody.

I for one, always want to hear what the manufacturer has to say and decide *for myself* whether or not I find it credible.

 

What nobody asked for (as can be seen in the thread) is for anyone to crap all over the thread about the OP's experience and excitement about same. Neither did I see anyone ask for the words he chose to express himself with to be evaluated. They are, after all, *his* words.

 

It is really just the most fundamental manners and lack of same that precipitated this thread.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[4est]

Barry,

 

Agreed.... I made mention of this in that thread, but the manufacturer mentioned treating the cables with Stabilant 22. I recommend you give it a whirl. It is the active ingredient in what used to be called "Tweek" before they degraded that product. It is made by Mike Wright, owner of Dayton Wright, and not at all like the silver pastes and such.

[wgscott]

My own comment was just one sentence of snark, so I won't attempt to defend it. However, let's look closely at what was actually said by the first responder:

 

Magnetic conduction? How would that work without a changing magnetic field? I call bullshit on this one after reading the technology page on their home page.

 

Sounds much like the usual scams about cables using the skin effect (at audio frequencies - lol) etc.

 

This is very clearly directed at the material posted on the manufacturer's home page, not at the original poster. It is disingenuous to claim otherwise. It is a completely valid expression of an opinion related to the topic introduced by the original poster. Perhaps the word "bullshit" should have been hyphenated, but apart from that, I don't understand what could possibly offend anyone.

 

Lest there have been any remaining confusion, we also have this:

 

Oh, I think we have a misunderstanding here. I'm calling bullshit on the pseudo-scientific (and completely non-sensical) claimed effects behind this cable.

[bdiament]

Threadcrappers never see what they're doing as threadcrapping.

It is an example of the "yes but" I referred to in post #7.

 

I've said what I have to say. My best to everyone here.

I do hope civility prevails. Right now, from where I sit, it is in the I.C.U. and things aren't looking good.

Is this becoming HeliumAudio?

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

[wgscott]

Accusations of incivility are a great way to suppress discussion of matters which may very well be of general concern, but do little else, ironically, to add to the civility of discourse.