Mother F$%#%^@#^, Help!!!

[jaxwired]

So I pulled the trigger on a NAD M2. I use iTunes for my music. Everything ripped to Apple Lossless. I use an Apple TV to stream to my Hifi. I have used this solution for 2 years without a problem. I was using a Benchmark DAC pre to convert D to A. Now I am using the M2 of course. The ATV has an optical digital output and that is what I am using into the M2. Well, the M2 loses the signal from the ATV intermittently. It will play fine for say an hour and then for no reason the sound will start to cut in and out quickly. I spoke to my dealer and NAD and they think it might be a compatibility problem which is hard to believe. I reconnected the ATV to my Benchmark and used the NADs analog input and had no problems. I also tried an iPod dock with digital coax output into the NAD and it also had no problems. I've tried both toslink inputs and they both experience the problem.

 

I still have all my old gear and I could just go back to that setup, the problem is, the M2 sounds bloody awesome and I'm comparing it to over $10k worth of electronics in my old system. I love the sound of the M2 and want to keep it.

 

But I really like iTunes and I really like my Apple TV. It's cheap and it sounds better than you might think. I'm willing to buy a different streamer, but there doesn't seem to be any alternative other than Airport Express.

 

I've started looking at music servers like the Bryston BDP-1, but man that would be a major change and a ton of work not to mention over $2k in expense.

 

Any suggestions very much appreciated.

[wgscott]

Try different optical cables. You know ATV resamples to 48kHz, right?

 

By the way, you misspelled my mother's name.

[jaxwired]

Try different optical cables. You know ATV resamples to 48kHz, right?

 

By the way, you misspelled my mother's name.

 

Yes, I know. Still sounds great to my ears.

 

Well, I might as well try a new cable. Good idea. The cable I have is a wireworld all glass cable, but maybe it is that simple. That would be awesome. Thanks.

[wgscott]

Well, I doubt you would do better than that, but it would be kind of funny if it worked better with a cheap plastic $10 Amazon cable (I am listening to one with ATV2 as I type).

[mayhem13]

It was mentioned that the ATV samples everything to 48khz while the Airport maintains 16/44. For $99, the Airport seems to be a worthwhile try. If nothing else, you can create another zone with it. If the ATV worked fine with the BenchMark, I'm at a loss other than to suspect the NAD as the problem. You could also consider a DAC and use the M2's Analog inputs?

 

Another question...is the ATV also connected to a display via HDMI? If so, disconnect the HDMI connection and see if the problem persists. There's so many HDCP unexpplainable problems these days, even the best installers are often baffled.

[jaxwired]

It was mentioned that the ATV samples everything to 48khz while the Airport maintains 16/44. For $99, the Airport seems to be a worthwhile try. If nothing else, you can create another zone with it. If the ATV worked fine with the BenchMark, I'm at a loss other than to suspect the NAD as the problem. You could also consider a DAC and use the M2's Analog inputs?

 

Another question...is the ATV also connected to a display via HDMI? If so, disconnect the HDMI connection and see if the problem persists. There's so many HDCP unexpplainable problems these days, even the best installers are often baffled.

 

Thanks for the reply. Using the analog inputs on the M2 is not an option as far as I'm concerned. I mean the M2 is a giant DAC. To put a DAC in front of it would be a waste. Plus the point of the M2 is to keep everything digital up to the speakers outs.

 

I've tried disconnecting the HDMI (turned off my display and unhooked all cables). Same problem.

 

I just switched my ATV to use hard wired ethernet instead of wifi. That shouldn't be the problem as nothing about my wifi or ATV has changed, but it's certainly worth a try and I'm lucky enought to have a jack right behind my hifi. Of course I had to decode the rubiks cube of wires in my network panel. The builder didn't label anything and never explained to me what was what. Finally figured out the phone cables were also the network cables. Then I had to try each one, one at a time and run upstairs to check. Fun stuff. I don't think this is the fix though as I thought I heard a quick stutter from it when I first turned it on, but I'm not positive and it hasn't done it again. It's been good for about 30 minutes now, but it's gone longer than that before and then flaked out...

[wgscott]

The new DAC may simply be less capable of handling a jittery source.

 

Someone here claimed changing the power cable or using some sort of power conditioner or RF filter on the ATV helped.

 

Id be surprised, but why not try?

[MarkS]

Do you have a computer with a USB output that you could use as a source instead of the ATV? If so, I have an extra and brand new HiFace Evo that I can give you (lord knows this forum has helped me out tons), then you could go spdif into the M2 after the HiFace converts the usb to spdif. If you want the HiFace, PM me your address, and I will send it on Monday.

[jaxwired]

Do you have a computer with a USB output that you could use as a source instead of the ATV? If so, I have an extra and brand new HiFace Evo that I can give you (lord knows this forum has helped me out tons), then you could go spdif into the M2 after the HiFace converts the usb to spdif. If you want the HiFace, PM me your address, and I will send it on Monday.

 

MarkS, wow, what a generous offer. Thank you.

 

I'm not ready to give up on the ATV yet, but if I need your HiFace I'll let you know. THanks again : )

[InnerGroove]

I had a similar problem with an AirportExpress when switching DACs - I'm assuming that the newer DAC couldn't cope with the jitter, but can't say for sure (PeachTree does have some products with two optical inputs, and this is evidently a factor - one input is better able to deal with higher jitter sources, or so I've been lead to believe). In any event, updating the firmware on the AE, which had also been trouble-free for two years, eliminated the problem - don't know if this would apply to the ATV, but it might be worth looking in to.

 

It's unfortunate that the M2 doesn't have the modular expansion slots - taking audio off of HDMI is one of the more compelling features of the newer NAD products...

[The Computer Audiophile]

I would talk to NAD about the jitter tolerance of the optical inputs. Peachtree had to increase the tolerance on its units to work better with the AE and ATV.

Also, try a cheap optical cable from Monoprice. This may tell you if there is an issue lining up the optical receiver/transceiver with the cable. Once in awhile a heavy cable like a WW optical will cause there to be misalignment in the optical port.

[4est]

Chris has a point, and furthermore there might be dirt or damage to the end of the optical connections.

[cgregory4]

1) Per wgscott: "The new DAC may simply be less capable of handling a jittery source."

 

2) Per MarkS: "Do you have a computer with a USB output that you could use as a source instead of the ATV? If so, I have an extra and brand new HiFace Evo that I can give you (lord knows this forum has helped me out tons), then you could go spdif into the M2 after the HiFace converts the usb to spdif. If you want the HiFace, PM me your address, and I will send it on Monday.

 

Disclosure: I'm apparently the only person on planet Earth not familiar with, nor using, Apple products. So, my '2 cents' may not be ... well, worth 'two cents'.

 

Re 1) I agree (again?) with wgscott concerning the possibility of 'jitter' as a 'fatal flaw'.

 

Re 2) MarkS offers a simple solution for 'courting' the M2 using a 'capable' SPDIF signal at one of its two coaxial inputs -- providing you have a USB output associated with your 'Apple lossless' system. And, his HiFace price is definitely reasonable!

 

More observations: Not being familiar with the M2, I looked at two 'honest' reviews this morning. Two things stood out: 1) The NAD M2 can 'deliver the goods' audio-wise, but 2) It is not PnP. Apparently 'tweaks', from 'praticed' audio experts for both the audio and digital M2 inputs, were necessary in order to achieve 'the goods'. In other words, 'The Lady' will make you work for 'it'.

 

To quote Peter Gabriel, "Don't Give Up." A little patience on your part, along with the aid of the 'audio authorities' on this forum (I'm not one of them. ), will pay off 'big time' for you. Congratulations -- you made a good 'catch' in the NAD M2.

 

Respectfully,

Greg

[jaxwired]

Thanks to everyone who has responded.

 

This morning I purchased an airport express at Best Buy. Then had to drive to R-Shack to buy a mini to full toslink cable as BB didn't sell one. Drove home, configured the whole thing. Had to configure it on a box with a wifi card first since my iTunes server is hardwired. Borrowed my wifes 5 year old iTouch to "Remote" control it. It's been working well since I turned it on. No stuttering yet. I prefer the ATV solution, but this solution is fine too. Of couse I had to spend $100 on the Airport Express and my wife uses her iTouch so I'll have to buy one of those. I've ruled out iPad since I prefer to use a netbook for web surfing so the iTouch will work fine for remote duties. Damn expensive remote, but it's also a very nice one.

 

And maybe it sounds better right guys? Since it's not upsampling but using the native sample rate. Can't tell yet.

 

Oh, and I've got to buy a new wireworld toslink cable since I'm a nut and I have to have a good cable. So, I'm into this for like $500 when you add the AE, iTouch, and cable. Still, if it works, I'm a happy camper. Thanks again to everyone. I'll post back after a longer test, but I do believe it's fixed now.

[jaxwired]

Ok, quite a few hours on the clock with the airport express and no issues. Apparenty the NAD M2 has compatibility issues with the Apple TV, but not with the Airport Express...

[mayhem13]

I have a mix of 4 ATVs used primarily for video streaming as well as 3 Airports. While I've never experienced what you are, one of them and an HK AVR don't play nice together. Often streamed content will start with Dolby digital but the HK will downmix it to another soundfield, as if the bit content is changing during playback. This particular ATV audio is sent via Optical as HDMI implementation on early HK receivers is awfull. My other ATVs are all HDMI audio with no issues. I've never bothered to switch them to see if it's just that ATV but given your experience, this might be worth looking into. It would be nice if someone did a thorough test group of the ATV....jitter, noise floor, bit stream rate, etc. If this has already been done, I'm unaware of it but I'll search anyway. Possibly the answer lies in the testing. If the frequency of the bitrate stumbles, maybe the M2 can't handle it?

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but the Airport and ATV don't use the same services for streaming?

[mayhem13]

Ok, I found a bit of info on the differences between ATV an Aex streaming services. Apparently the AEx still uses AirTunes and RAOP while the ATV uses AirPlay. While AirPlay and AirTunes are spoken of synonymously, the data services are not the same. They're handled by the same service in iTunes but after that the protocols are different. I suspect in lies the issue. The guys who hack the ATV2 would be able to tell me more so I'll see what I can find out.

[chilly]

Try using free prog, VNC Lite on your netbook to control your iTunes server.Also use a glass optical cable if you want better sound.Yes I'm a newbie but been there and done it.

[jaxwired]

Try using free prog, VNC Lite on your netbook to control your iTunes server.Also use a glass optical cable if you want better sound.Yes I'm a newbie but been there and done it.

 

I've had the same experience with the glass toslink cable. But it does fly in the face of common sense. I use wireworlds supernova 6 in my headphone rig and my hifi. To my ears they provide greater clarity and openness than the cheaper plastic cables. And trust me, I'm very skeptical of plecibo affect...

[jaxwired]

Ok, I found a bit of info on the differences between ATV an Aex streaming services. Apparently the AEx still uses AirTunes and RAOP while the ATV uses AirPlay. While AirPlay and AirTunes are spoken of synonymously, the data services are not the same. They're handled by the same service in iTunes but after that the protocols are different. I suspect in lies the issue. The guys who hack the ATV2 would be able to tell me more so I'll see what I can find out.

 

Hey, thanks for doing the leg work on this!