Upgrade path advice

[odamone]

Hello,

 

I'd love to know what, if anything, I could do to improve the audio quality of my setup. Not that it doesn't satisfy currently, but, you know, with the addiction and all...I'm just curious if there are any obvious places where I could look to improve. What could my upgrade path look like?

 

Here's how I listen to music:

 

1) Rip the CD to FLAC using Max

2) Put the files on an off the shelf Buffalo something or other wireless NAS that has DLNA built in

3) Connect the NAS to an airport extreme

4) Connect a separate airport express to my Marantz SR7005 via LAN (The Marantz reads the NAS off the network)

5) Take the digital optical out of the Marantz into a Rega DAC

6) Rega DAC RCA out to a Primaluna Dialogue Two integrated tube amp

7) Out to a pair of Quad 22L2 floor standers and a pair of REL R205 subs

 

Any weak points in the system? I'm not really looking to swap out speakers, I'm more thinking about the source and signal path. Are there better ways of doing this? My computer and NAS are in a different room and I need to keep it that way. I don't know much about digital audio...I always thought it's ones and zeros, sound is either all there or not, but apparently there's other factors at play...

 

Any suggestions?

 

Thanks a million!

[ringenesherre]

Hi,

 

here my 2 cents regarding your chain:

 

1) I would look at ways of "shortening" your chain. It looks pretty long to me.

 

2) The Primaluna adds a non-trivial amount of distortion (THD <0.22%) to the signal. If you like the way that sounds, it is ok. But it would be my first candidate for improving the chain. It also has a low signal-to-noise ratio (SNR 89db). Good solid state amplifiers manage THD <<0.01 and SNR >115db. With the Primaluna in the chain, I would not worry too much about audibility of e.g. the DAC and jitter - it's not hifi enough to resolve these.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Richard Dale]

Hi,

 

2) The Primaluna adds a non-trivial amount of distortion (THD <0.22%) to the signal. If you like the way that sounds, it is ok. But it would be my first candidate for improving the chain. It also has a low signal-to-noise ratio (SNR 89db). Good solid state amplifiers manage THD <<0.01 and SNR >115db. With the Primaluna in the chain, I would not worry too much about audibility of e.g. the DAC and jitter - it's not hifi enough to resolve these.

 

 

I personally wouldn't choose an amplifier on the basis of just two simple measurements of THD and SNR as you suggest. The Prima Luna is a high resolution modern valve amplifier. None of the reviews of Prima Luna valves amps that I've read have said they are noisy or sound distorted, although they obviously sound like valve amplifiers and have different sorts of distortions compared with other sorts of amplifier (not better or worse, but different). In my opinion as a valve amp fan, the Prima Luna should most certainly quite capable of revealing the quality of the source components connected to it.

[ringenesherre]

I agree, I would also not choose an amplifier based on just two measurements. But I would never choose an amplifier, that does bad in these measurements.

 

Just my 2 cents, really.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[mayhem13]

Welcome to CA. I too have some concerns in your choice of amplification. Your Quads do dip a bit low impedance wise for my taste using valves and they certainly aren't very efficient for pairing with 38 wpc. I would consider replacing either the Quads for a more efficient speaker with a higher, more linear impedance or the Amplifier with a more robust solid state unit.

 

Also, your post indicates an Apple based system......any reason for using FLAC and not Apple Lossless for your files? How do you a access or control your files for playback?

[ringenesherre]

I just ran the sensitivity (89db) of your speakers and the power of the amplifier through a sound pressure level calculator. The theoretical maximum at 10 feet is 97 db. If you want to leave some headroom (and avoid driving the amplifier close to its max which is usually a bad idea), the amplifier is really a little underpowered.

 

Anyway, if it is loud enough and sounds good enough for you, nothing to do here

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Richard Dale]

Welcome to CA. I too have some concerns in your choice of amplification. Your Quads do dip a bit low impedance wise for my taste using valves and they certainly aren't very efficient for pairing with 38 wpc. I would consider replacing either the Quads for a more efficient speaker with a higher, more linear impedance or the Amplifier with a more robust solid state unit.

 

Also, your post indicates an Apple based system......any reason for using FLAC and not Apple Lossless for your files? How do you a access or control your files for playback?

 

I think the Prima Luna should be quite fine driving the Quads. If it is the version with KT88s they are actual quite a chunky powerful valve that should be well up to driving the Quads. The OP would know best about whether the speakers go loud enough before the amp runs out of steam I suppose.

 

I use AIFF with my Apple system - I think disk space is cheap enough that the extra space used doesn't matter. AIFF works with both Apple and Linux systems (as well as Windows), like FLAC and also has good meta tag support. I use XLD to rip to AIFF and it works very well.

 

My personal suggestion for the best upgrade would be to get an Audiophileo 2 USB to SPDI/F converter to drive the Rega DAC instead of connecting the computer's optical output direct to the DAC's input. My understanding of optical connections is that they are not very good with respect to jitter and the Audiophileo would probably be a lot better. It comes with a USB cable I believe and so it wouldn't be necessary to buy one.

[odamone]

Thanks all, I really appreciate your thoughts and advice.

 

Just a few responses based on the discussion.

 

1) funnily enough adding the primaluna amp was a major upgrade over the marantz receiver - much wider sound stage and resolution. It's also the most expensive piece in the whole chain.

 

2) the primaluna provides more than enough volume - I never have it above half way, and I dont notice any struggle with dynamics. Plenty of power. Granted I have not tested the system with any solid state better than the marantz. Note it does have the kt88's, and not the stock ones.

 

3) why flac? Well, honestly it's because google music transcodes flac to 320kb mp3 on the fly but not apple m4a. I use google music on the road and at the office.

 

4) clearing up confusion around the connections... I don't have the computer connected to the dac, in fact the computer is only used to rip the cd. The files are stored on a nas which is read by the marantz via ethernet. The marantz provides the GUI to control the music. The marantz then feeds the dac using an optical.

 

5) I could use an apple TV (v1) but prefer that the marantz screen turns off while the apple TV remains always on which I find distracting. (I rip everything to apple lossless as well just in case apple ever has a product I prefer. What can I say...storage is cheap.)

[Jud]

Hello,

 

I'd love to know what, if anything, I could do to improve the audio quality of my setup. Not that it doesn't satisfy currently, but, you know, with the addiction and all...I'm just curious if there are any obvious places where I could look to improve. What could my upgrade path look like?

 

Here's how I listen to music:

 

1) Rip the CD to FLAC using Max

2) Put the files on an off the shelf Buffalo something or other wireless NAS that has DLNA built in

3) Connect the NAS to an airport extreme

4) Connect a separate airport express to my Marantz SR7005 via LAN (The Marantz reads the NAS off the network)

5) Take the digital optical out of the Marantz into a Rega DAC

6) Rega DAC RCA out to a Primaluna Dialogue Two integrated tube amp

7) Out to a pair of Quad 22L2 floor standers and a pair of REL R205 subs

 

Any weak points in the system? I'm not really looking to swap out speakers, I'm more thinking about the source and signal path. Are there better ways of doing this? My computer and NAS are in a different room and I need to keep it that way. I don't know much about digital audio...I always thought it's ones and zeros, sound is either all there or not, but apparently there's other factors at play...

 

Any suggestions?

 

Thanks a million!

 

The digital optical out to the Rega DAC - any idea what the jitter measurements are for the Marantz optical output?

 

Tried playing back from your computer over USB direct to the Rega just to compare the sound? The Rega uses an adaptive USB connection so jitter won't be improved hugely (if at all, depending on the quality of the Marantz optical output), but I'd be interested if using fewer boxes in your chain helps at all.

 

The number of boxes and jitter are the two things I personally would begin thinking about, but those are just general ideas because I'm not familiar with the sound of most of what's in your system.

[Richard Dale]

 

4) clearing up confusion around the connections... I don't have the computer connected to the dac, in fact the computer is only used to rip the cd. The files are stored on a nas which is read by the marantz via ethernet. The marantz provides the GUI to control the music. The marantz then feeds the dac using an optical.

 

5) I could use an apple TV (v1) but prefer that the marantz screen turns off while the apple TV remains always on which I find distracting. (I rip everything to apple lossless as well just in case apple ever has a product I prefer. What can I say...storage is cheap.)

 

Ah sorry about not noticing you were not using a Mac to actually drive the DAC, I should have read your original post properly.

 

I started replying on this thread as I was surprised people were saying that they thought the Prima Luna was a weak link. I use a little 5 watt per channel Glow Amp One in black finish - it has a curved tube cover and looks a bit like a little brother of a Prima Luna. The only real problem with my Glow is that it only has one input and I have to change the interconnect every time I want to switch inputs. After reading a very positive review in this month's Toneaudio about a Prima Luna amp, I had been vaguely thinking that if I ever wanted to upgrade my Glow, then a Prima Luna might be perfect. Great sound and very nice build quality. But it would be 3000 euro to spend on a bit more power and the input selector - oh well I can dream.

 

In the reviews I've read of the Rega DAC they say that the SPDI/F input is the best one, but your Marantz doesn't output SPDI/F and so it isn't easy to try that input type to see if it is any better than optical. So it is tricky to experiment without doing complicated things like using a computer with a USB to SPDI/F convertor, which may well not end up being better after all.

[Jud]

In the reviews I've read of the Rega DAC they say that the SPDI/F input is the best one, but your Marantz doesn't output SPDI/F and so it isn't easy to try that input type to see if it is any better than optical. So it is tricky to experiment without doing complicated things like using a computer with a USB to SPDI/F convertor, which may well not end up being better after all.

 

Optical actually *is* S/PDIF, just like coax. And converters aren't really at all complicated. Musical Fidelity makes a couple that are very well thought of and inexpensive, and would minimize jitter if that's at all a problem. Or for not much more money you could have the Schiit Bifrost DAC with async USB ($450 US), which I own and like a lot.

 

But who knows, maybe jitter isn't a problem in the OP's system.

[mayhem13]

Thanks all, I really appreciate your thoughts and advice.

 

Just a few responses based on the discussion.

 

1) funnily enough adding the primaluna amp was a major upgrade over the marantz receiver - much wider sound stage and resolution. It's also the most expensive piece in the whole chain.

 

2) the primaluna provides more than enough volume - I never have it above half way, and I dont notice any struggle with dynamics. Plenty of power. Granted I have not tested the system with any solid state better than the marantz. Note it does have the kt88's, and not the stock ones.

 

3) why flac? Well, honestly it's because google music transcodes flac to 320kb mp3 on the fly but not apple m4a. I use google music on the road and at the office.

 

4) clearing up confusion around the connections... I don't have the computer connected to the dac, in fact the computer is only used to rip the cd. The files are stored on a nas which is read by the marantz via ethernet. The marantz provides the GUI to control the music. The marantz then feeds the dac using an optical.

 

5) I could use an apple TV (v1) but prefer that the marantz screen turns off while the apple TV remains always on which I find distracting. (I rip everything to apple lossless as well just in case apple ever has a product I prefer. What can I say...storage is cheap.)

 

Sounds like your pretty happy with your system overall then.....so why the post? Sounds like you've got a good case of Upgraditus. I can't help but mentioning your reference to the amp being the most costly item in your system. My suggestions as to the amp and any I might make here will never consider cost as cost is Not a determining factor of either performance or compatability.

[odamone]

Thanks everyone.

 

@Jud, I could try connecting my laptop via USB to the DAC to test fewer boxes. I'm not sure how I would know if jitter is a problem short of an A/B test. I can't find specs on the marantz. If optical is spdi/f then why would converting it help? I'm all for minimizing boxes, but I'm not sure how I would. Is there a better way to get the music on my computer in room A to my hifi in room B?

 

@mayhem, your diagnoses of upgraditis is correct, but I'm also just trying to learn and improve. I wasn't sure if there was some common wisdom that I wasn't aware of, like "never stream over wifi" or something.

[mayhem13]

Reducing the amount of devices in the signal chain is usually sound advice. I use Airports too but in a very different way. Since my music is stored in Apple Lossless using iTunes, I use the Airports as network servers. Two are wireless and one is Cat5. If you used yours in this way, you could eliminate the Marantz and connect the Airport directly to the Rega DAC. That's not to say the Marantz is better or worse than the Airport as a server.

 

I'd be interested to get your feedback on using the DAC in the Marantz to feed the integrated, skipping the Rega altogether. Have you ever tried it that way?

[odamone]

Thanks mayhem,

 

With the airports as servers, how do you control the music?

 

I did try eliminating the Rega DAC. The Prima Luna has a home theatre pass through which I also use for watching TV/Movies. In the pass through mode the Marantz controls volume but the Prima Luna is the amp. I used this connection to easily test the Rega.

 

The Marantz needs to be in Ultra Pure Direct mode or something, where it shuts off all but the essentials, to sound any good. With the Marantz properly configured I must admit I can't hear any difference at low to mid volumes, however the Marantz volume needs to be pushed to the max to get decent volume from the integrated.

[mayhem13]

Full feature control of the collection via an iPad, iTouch or iPhone using the Remote App. Also for more casual listening, content can be streamed directly from these devices to the Airports via AirPlay with Apps that support it like Pandora, LastFm and many others. Quality isn't the greatest but in a party situation, the convenience of such Apps is pretty not bad.

 

Input level matching can be a tough thing with gear and having to max out the gain stage to match another invites an increase to the noise floor....so best avoided as you've discovered. But,....I believe this is adjustable in the Marantz's menu?

[Jud]

Thanks everyone.

 

@Jud, I could try connecting my laptop via USB to the DAC to test fewer boxes. I'm not sure how I would know if jitter is a problem short of an A/B test. I can't find specs on the marantz. If optical is spdi/f then why would converting it help? I'm all for minimizing boxes, but I'm not sure how I would. Is there a better way to get the music on my computer in room A to my hifi in room B?

 

Yes, short of knowing the jitter specs on the Marantz, what I'm suggesting is listening to the laptop into the DAC via USB and seeing if it sounds better. If it does, that's likely due to jitter, since the optical connection eliminates electrical noise and interference. If that's so, then minimizing jitter by using an async USB input (either in another DAC or a USB-to-S/PDIF converter) should help a fair bit.

 

The reason a USB-to-S/PDIF converter would help is because the USB input on pretty much every one of them is async, so the converter minimizes jitter of the signal going into the S/PDIF input.

[catastrofe]

I'm a fan of wired Ethernet vs wireless where possible. If you can run Ethernet from your NAS to the APE, then again from that APE to your Marantz, I think you'd be better off. I believe cable has higher performance than wireless, and you eliminate one of your APEs. JMHO. . .

[odamone]

Yeah, I'll create a wired connection, though it means adding a box. I can't move the airport extreme because it needs to connect to the modem in room a, but I will add a router to the airport express in room b then connect the nas and the marantz to the router. Shout if this is a bad idea. Thanks!