A suggestion for CA

[prufrock]

This is a great forum, but can be very confusing for newcomers. Even just a cursory read of the threads will have a newbie encounter those claiming to hear things that in theory should not be heard and which most do not hear. Computer audio is obviously going to become more and more popular. There are going to be more and more people like me coming here who are music lovers and for whom computers and gear are just necessary evils.

So it would be very helpful if the FAQ or some other associated upfront section could include links to properly conducted DBT on issues like cables, Hi Res v redbook, FLAC v WAV,etc. That way, a newcomer could avoid becoming hopelessly confused over all the subjective stuff in the threads and make a decision based on accepted scientific principles.

The more time I spend here, the more obvious it becomes that many people underestimate the power of the mind to deceive itself. Expecting ones ear alone to tell the truth just doesn't work. Quite often even the most rational will see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. I work in the medical industry (nurse) and have daily encounters with the placebo effect. It is extremely powerful and many pseudo medical industries are built around it.

I hope this is taken for what it is, i.e, constructive criticism from an outsider looking in. As I said, this is a great forum but I think it would gain a lot of credibility by dealing with these issues upfront and in a very visible way. Newcomers would feel much more comfortable and less bogged down. They could still chose to enter into some of the more fringe/controversial debates if they wished, but would have the mainstream scientific stance to fall back on. As it stands now, the fringe has more of a voice than it deserves on the forum and credibility is the loser.

 

[Daren F]

Hi prufrock,

 

"So it would be very helpful if the FAQ or some other associated upfront section could include links to properly conducted DBT on issues like cables, Hi Res v redbook, FLAC v WAV,etc."

 

The items you mention are for the most part purely subjective. If you search the forum you will find many threads with extensive debates on these issues with no definitive outcome. Check out this article from AudioStream on the apophatic state of computer audio http://www.audiostream.com/content/apophatic-state-computer-audio.

 

Computer audio can be as easy or as difficult as you wish to make it.

 

If you're a newbie and have a question ask it. Most forum members would be more than happy to help with even the most elementary questions.

 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi prufrock - Constructive criticism and differing opinions are always encouraged here at CA. Thanks for taking the time to leave your comments.

 

I don't think many people underestimate the power of the mind or placebo effect. There are smart people around here. They chose to consider all the information and make an educated decision. It's hard to tell people they don't here something they clearly do here. At the same time I don't see why anyone cares what other people here. A happy and enjoyable listening experience is just that, happy and enjoyable.

 

 

 

[wgscott]

Although I am probably in agreement with you about the veracity of some of these kinds of claims, I think the idea that someone new must be protected from "crazy" ideas and vigorous debate is counter-productive.

 

I have thought, however, a separate sub-section where people can debate these things might help keep things organized.

 

[Jud]

I have thought, however, a separate sub-section where people can debate these things might help keep things organized.

 

Sure, you wanna be the one to decide what people "shouldn't be able to hear," so we know what to put in the separate sub-section?

 

[Paul R]

(grin) Well, not really.

 

I wouldn't mind a topic or thread called "Blazes" were people could flame away at each other -within bounds of course.

 

Then, if a discussion in a thread got too heated - well - the participants could be told to Go To Blazes!

 

Yours,

-Paul

 

 

[cgregory4]

"The only unity possible to thinking man and women is unity in diversity." -- Ketcherside

 

I would add to his opinion the essential element of civility, or courtesy,in discussion.

 

Thoughts:

1) Some agreement among members to police themselves and eliminate personal attacks in the posts (eg, yesterday's FLAC vs WAV nonsense), leaving the main forums open to polite conversation concerning any and all topics, from any and all viewpoints.

2) I agree with the original poster on the degree of difficulty getting 'up to speed' in a constantly changing area of technology. However, it is precisely this state of flux which draws me to the 'mysterious veiled lady'. And, of course, the music. I want the 'variety of life' on the main board forums.

 

Suggestion:

Daren posted today on my 'First PC Audio System' topic. There were 6 replies. His was #6. He looked at the entire thread, picked up on my points of confusion, and even gave me links to proper equipment connections. In a few words: "He jump-started me." I printed his post out. And, I will be a long time 'mining' my way through his 8 logical suggested steps. Now -- if there was a Place to Paste that Post , I would tack it there. It's not likely to be found in a general search of the site. Why not make a sub-section for those posts, or threads, which are particularly educational, practical, or thought-provoking? They don't have to judged on content. They just need to be well-spoken. Truth be told, they don't come around that often.

 

Maybe 8, or so, of the 'long beards' on the board would volunteer to sign off on a nominated post/thread, thus placing it in a reference section, containing a mutiplicity of topics, data, links, and thoughtful 'editorials'.

 

Food for thought.

 

[wgscott]

I kind of envisioned that being one of the purposes of the blog functionality.

 

[cgregory4]

A web log appears to me as mud thrown against a wall. It may be random -- or ordered. It can stand alone -- or it is connected to a social network.

 

My suggestion is a 'nook' where the 'unique ones' reside. What passes the 'unique' test? Anything submitted and approved by a few respected members of the community.

 

I don't think there will be a flood of proposed candidates -- but, then again, I'm often wrong. ;?)

 

Yes ... you are correct ... I don't blog.

 

[Paul R]

CA Members have a blog space of their own?

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blog

 

Easy peasy!

 

-Paul

 

 

[wgscott]

What is considered good advice is highly subjective.

 

What if I had suggested that you ditch the PC, get a mac mini, a good optical toslink or $10 USB cable, plug it into a DAC, and you are ready to go in 5 minutes?

 

I personally think that is exceptionally good advice. I also predict that you would regard me posting that to your thread as counter-productive, possibly a troll, etc.

 

There is too much subjectivity involved. The present system looks deficient until you consider the alternatives.

 

 

The "blog" functionality here is almost indistinguishable from normal threads, except for being tagged with your name in a way that enables you or other users to find it more easily.

 

[cgregory4]

I don't profess to know. But, then again, I might not trust you to know, either. There is no 'good' in my suggestion. (Wow, I really stepped in it, didn't I?

 

My suggestion for a 'middle-ground' resource (Not a FAQ, blog, or even review -- all these have a 'home'.) in response to the OP:

 

"Why not make a sub-section for those posts, or threads, which are particularly educational, practical, or thought-provoking? They don't have to judged on content. They just need to be well-spoken. Truth be told, they don't come around that often. Maybe 8, or so, of the 'long beards' on the board would volunteer to sign off on a nominated post/thread, thus placing it in a reference section, containing a mutiplicity of topics, data, links, and thoughtful 'editorials'."

 

I can't see an element of determination of 'good' in that suggestion, but I may be missing something.

 

The criteria would, of necessity, be non-judgemental, except for the elements of effective presentation and plausible interest to the community.

 

Let's take as an example your above-stated hypothetical post on my topic, and submit it (again, hypothetically), along with Daren's actual post on my topic, to 8 persons on this board that you respect -- in terms of both personal and technical integrity. I would guess that Daren's would make the cut. And, that yours wouldn't. But, what if it was the exact opposite? Or, both were rejected. Or, both accepted into the 'resource nook'? As long as the community was satisfied, I would be. And, it would be a bold, novel and useful tool for CA.

 

[Jud]

It's more trouble for you, but there is Google-based search functionality on the site that works well. Admittedly it's helpful to have some fairly specific ideas of what you're looking for.

 

So why am I suggesting something that's more difficult for you? Because the amount of work for the 8 "graybeards" (assuming there were some sort of consensus as to who they were) would be enormous, considering nearly all of them have day jobs. The time and attention demands would be such, I think, as to make the task rather unattractive for experts such as the audio professionals who occasionally act as a welcome source of at least semi-authoritative advice here. I imagine Chris could give you some rough idea of the dimensions of what is involved just trying to keep an eye on threads about to go off the rails completely, and I believe this *is* his day job (and likely evenings too).

 

[cgregory4]

Jud,

 

Your comments make sense. Certainly you, a CA member for several years, and 'lucky' Chris , have a better feel for the 'real world' impact of my suggestion. Thank you.

 

Kind regards,

 

Greg

 

[bottlerocket]

The nice thing about the subjective stuff is we all have ears and brains. My suggestion is use them both and don't forget it is fun to experiment within your budget. It is useful to read the opinions, but the great thing about this site is that most people will eagerly admit your mileage will vary.

 

If we had a long list of DBTs, it would just confirm the obvious; the majority can't discern differences in the examples you've provided. That would not change the fact that YOU may have completed a DBT with a different result.

 

Also "the fringe has more of a voice than it deserves". That's life man. Avoid loud & aggressive persons. They are vexations to the spirit.

 

 

 

 

[wgscott]

 

OK, that is one.

 

Anyone have a picture of Eloise?

 

[DigiPete]

That is the question!

 

How would we decide what is best when we can not even decide on the basic premises in comparisons?

 

In one end of the scale we have people commenting from experience with say a DAC in a system in a room with no scientific knowledge of the absolute basics:

 

- linearity of the "reference" system.

- RT60, amount of first reflection etc. of the room

- differences in listening levels (1 dB makes a huge difference in perceived resolution)

 

In the opposite end of the scale we have Daniel Weiss making great equipment like the DAC202 purely based on measurements and what he thinks is sound topology.

 

I do support the idea of making it easier for newbies to enter CA.

Let's make a simple guide to help them get up and running on a basic system and then let them judge for themselves how to proceed.

 

I think surround is the new black, some focus on NOS and others think reviving DSD is the holy grail.

Who are we to tell anybody the right direction?

 

[francisleung]

I can see the puzzle from the perspective of Prufrock. When I joined CA two years ago, I really didn't know how to look for what I wanted. But one thing, Chris and members were helpful.

In my view a forum is for members to air to views, orthodox or absurd. I believe veteran members know how to sieve through numerous opinions expressed and focus on postings from those writers they personally favor.

One matter I want to take the opportunity to warn about is that a local forum in where I live, Hong Kong, perhaps the largest forum there, have importers creep in as disguised users, hyping products and forming fans on paper around the chosen items. The forum takes in advertising revenue and turns a blind eye to such acts of advertisers. The importers pay writers disguised as users to praise products or lend them or sell them the product at a nominal price. There was an apparent case in which together with several others, I found the product being so so. But the "user" compared it with products of several times the price, declared it as winner. I raised some caveats but then others joined in to refute. What I suggested was fine because the hyped product was light and portable, please bring it and come along with supporters to a place where we could listen and prove us wrong. Well the proposed venue is within 30 to 45 minutes traveling time for most participants. The answer was they had no interest or obligation to convince doubters but then kept on talking about virtues of the product in the forum. Later a separate thread was created in CA in the General Forum about the product. I did not go through the thread, as I presumed it would be repeating the enthusiasm as posted in the local forum. I raise the issue now to alert Chris and other readers about such practices that may spoil the whole forum.

 

 

[Jud]

Certainly you, a CA member for several years

 

You give me too much credit. It's been just a smidgen over 2 years, and doesn't seem that long at all.

 

But as Bill points out, with the visual evidence to prove it, I am definitely a greybeard. :-)

 

While your specific proposal of a vetting committee might be difficult to implement, that doesn't mean the general suggestion of newbie guidance is a bad idea at all, and I for one look forward to more proposals and ideas along those lines.

 

[mayhem13]

As the OP suggested, a FAQ section is just that......Facts. It doesn't need to include ANY subjective audiophool mumbo jumbo....just simple principles on what's needed to get started in computer audio. A definitions section would be nice to cover some of the associated terms commonly used. Basic explanations on acoustics wouldn't hurt either. Speaker efficiency and impedance is often grossly misunderstood so claification of those terms would be helpful.

 

Equipment reviews.....I gotta say guys....the reviews that go on here are completely useless. If you wish to have a Review section, you need to be non bias, thorough in testing and if need be.....unmerciful. Otherwise, 'reviews' in the audio world come off like paid endorsements.......people just aren't that stupid. Visit the NwAvGuy.com and see what a real equipment review looks like.

 

 

 

[crisnee]

It's just a matter of organization. I've made several suggestions in other threads. See if you can find them.

 

The blogs section is for the bored with great patience. I for one don't much care what folks I don't know think about random topics. That's what I get when I go to the blog section, unless I want to patiently page through it to see if somewhere in that sequence of long winded pap there's something that I need to know more about( yeah I know, I can search, but really, give me a break).

 

As I said, I made some good suggestions as to how to organize it; they're here somewhere. For now, I'm sure I'm missing some good stuff, and will semi-reluctantly continue to do so.

 

Besides, all this may be addressed, as Chris C. will be making some major changes to the site fairly soon.

 

-Chris--not C

 

[crisnee]

Hey Mayhem,

 

Thanks for the seemingly very interesting site www.NwAvGuy.com. They have a link to Diffmaker and some related files. I've always wanted to check it out and am finally going to.

 

A down and dirty overview of Diffmaker. It allows for one to exactly align volume levels of files for testing, and allows you to hear the differences between them, by playing only what's different. You can also compare components in a chain with it. The example files include "Green CD Marker," some amp comparisons, and tests. Check it out unless you're ehscared.

 

I'm sure someone will flame Diffmaker and tell everybody what's wrong with it; hey go ahead. I won't come back here for awhile, so that guy can't spoil my party before I get to it.

 

-Chris

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hey guys - As crisnee pointed out change is in the air here. CA 3.0 is a major upgrade. Next week the new site will debut. The new blog section will be far better than what we have now. The community features will blow away the current CA features.

 

Also, and possibly the most asked for fix, the new site will be able to link directly to posts even if the thread is thousands of posts and several pages long.

 

 

 

[prufrock]

darren f

"If you're a newbie and have a question ask it. Most forum members would be more than happy to help with even the most elementary questions."

 

No doubting the generosity of people on the forum. I frequent stockmarket forums as well and they are nasty and Darwinian compared to here.

 

I guess you have to put yourself in the shoes of someone new to it all and with limited knowledge/time. This site is going to have a lot of people who fit this description hitting it. Maybe they went to a friends place, heard how good the music sounded coming from the computer, saw the images on theatre view and were hooked (my situation). How good would it be to come to a site like this and see a "Beginners" tab on the home page which outlined some of the most basic issues. To give you an example: I was almost finished ripping

when I chanced upon a thread where it was suggested that not all ripping hardware is equal/up to the task. My initial reaction was @#$% - maybe I will have to do this all again because I didn't spend an extra 100 bucks. I then spent hours trawling through the net trying to find out what was going on. The thing is if you are a newbie and ask a basic question you will often two opposing opinions. Both will sound knowledgeable and informed. However one may be mainstream and the other on the fringe and controversial. But because you are new you wont know which is which. A beginners section could prevent all this confusion by indicating which views on basic issues were mainstream and which were not.

All I am talking about here is giving newcomers a leg up. This is all difficult enough as it is. Newcomers have all sorts of issues to address: software players, DACS, Codecs, computer issues. The last thing they need is to wander onto a thread and see a raging an inconclusive debate on whether one USB cable is better than another.

What a newbie wants to know is what is the mainstream opinion on basic issues and what is not. This could easily be addressed in a couple of pages long fact sheet that keeps it simple and makes the whole project achievable looking. And when they come across a basic and important issue in the threads that is fringe they can refer back to the factsheet and continue on their merry way. Otherwise a lot of people will just throw their hands in the air and conclude that it is all too difficult.

 

Some of issues they will come across are codec v codec, cable v cable, hi res v redbook. How good would it be to have a couple of links in the beginners guide that pointed out these facts : provided that the cable in question is the proper gauge and adequately shielded, DBT have shown that audiophiles score no better than chance in distinguishing a $10k cable from a $30 one; similarly, DBT have shown that they fail on distinguishing hi res from redbook.

Beginners could then put these issues to the side and concentrate on the things that matter, i.e speakers and buying music they liked off Amazon for 5 bucks a CD.

 

I know that if I had come onto this site and had a beginners guide like that I would have given it a big thumbs up because it would have saved me many hours research. Not everyone has the time to trawl through threads looking for answers on basic issues.

 

Anyhow, appreciate your efforts and look forward to the new look CA Chris.

 

 

 

[cgregory4]

The OP raised a relevant issue, and pleasant, open, and honest discussion ensued. Apparently 'the answers are blowin' in the wind', and intentional efforts are 'in the works' that speak to his concerns. We've come full-circle?

 

With kind regards to all, as well as sincere thanks to the 'greybeards' who posted ,

 

Greg