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    The Computer Audiophile

    A Conversation About Network Audio, AES67, Ravenna, and Merging Technologies

    At the Munich High End show this year, I talked to Merging Technologies' Dominique Brulhart about network audio, AES67, Ravenna, and many other items. Needless to say, I learned quite a bit and was really impressed by what is happening in this area of HiFi. After our conversation I asked Dominique if he would be willing to help educate the CA Community on all of this stuff. Dom was 100% on-board and agreed that we didn't even have to discuss Merging Technologies products, as long as we could educate the community. 

     

    Thus, last week I (virtually) sat down with Dominique via Skype and we talked about all things network audio. I couldn't resist asking some questions about the new Merging Technologies ZMan module and a few other items that I thought were too cool to pass up. 

     

     

    Here is the recording of our conversation.

     

    Links:

    AES67

    Ravenna

    Merging Technologies
     

     

     

     




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    12 hours ago, dbrulhart said:

    On a purist approach of sound quality, if we were to use ZMan in this context, I would be more tempted to let the Bluray player decode the format itself, give up on special effects, and keep the DSP for either some room correction or some upsampling.

    1

     

    Upsampling would be interesting.  

     

    But I suspect you would need more CPU power than the remaining space on the credit card sized ZMan to offer upsampling with software like HQ Player that is used by many audiophiles here on CA Forum. :)

     

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    7 hours ago, bmoura said:

     

    Hmm, then you'd need to replace your speakers and DAC when upgrading DACs?  Think I'll stay with keeping the Multichannel DAC and Loudspeakers separate. :)

     

     

    Seriously, the last thing I think when I get some bright, new, shinny piece of audio kit home is: "okay, how do I get rid of this thing and move on to something better?"  That's crazy-thinking; I'd rather just enjoy the music!  

     

    True, I might upgrade from my Kii THREEs some day and if/when I do, I might take a hit for their all-in-one form-factor.  But, for the time being, I am a lot more interested in what I can get for my $$$ in the here-and-now (which I believe is a lot more with actives than passives) than in worrying how I can climb back onto the upgrade hamster-wheel.  Honestly, I wish no more for the other music-lovers out there.

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    22 minutes ago, input username here said:

     

    Seriously, the last thing I think when I get some bright, new, shinny piece of audio kit home is: "okay, how do I get rid of this thing and move on to something better?"  That's crazy-thinking; I'd rather just enjoy the music

    3

     

    Very true.  And I will say that I am enjoying the 8 Channel NADAC Player DAC from Dominique's company (Merging Technologies) here!  No plans to make a change.

     

    But if I were to make a change (vs. more music enjoyment/listening at the moment), I was wondering what would be easier.  Changing out 1 DAC or 5.1 speakers, each with a DAC (6 new audio products or 1 new audio product) .  Hmm...   :)

     

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    6 hours ago, bmoura said:

    Very true.  And I will say that I am enjoying the 8 Channel NADAC Player DAC from Dominique's company (Merging Technologies) here!  No plans to make a change.

    I cannot imagine otherwise.

     

    6 hours ago, bmoura said:

    But if I were to make a change (vs. more music enjoyment/listening at the moment), I was wondering what would be easier.  Changing out 1 DAC or 5.1 speakers, each with a DAC (6 new audio products or 1 new audio product) .  Hmm...   :)

    Ah.  No question that swapping DACs is easier but swapping speakers has a much greater potential for change and, perhaps, improvement in overall sound quality.

     

    7 hours ago, input username here said:

    True, I might upgrade from my Kii THREEs some day and if/when I do, I might take a hit for their all-in-one form-factor.

    Kii Threes with Zman would accommodate multichannel very nicely.

     

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    8 hours ago, bmoura said:

    I am enjoying the 8 Channel NADAC Player DAC from Dominique's company (Merging Technologies) here!  No plans to make a change.

     

    Congratulations.  I've never heard one myself, but everything I've been told is that it sounds delicious.

     

    2 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

    Kii Threes with Zman would accommodate multichannel very nicely.

     

    If I wasn't thinking that before listening to Chris's conversation with Mr. Brulhart  (okay, I admit it, I was not), I certainly am now.  I use a Kii CONTROL preamp now, which works great for stereo but, for more flexible implementations, these speakers seem like they were made for Zman.

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    I think not too far down the road we are headed toward powered speakers with built in DACs or even DSP.  A server, and a protocol to connect them (like Ravenna).  Maybe the only left is wireless.

     

    While mix and matching components doesn't fit well with this, you get some considerable synergy with powered speakers so that the performance they offer for the money is well above the norm.  Built in digital processing whether simply DACs per driver with digital crossovers or more advanced DSP builds upon that making for an even better performance to cost ratio. 

     

    So I hope it happens sooner rather than later that a considerable percentage of audiophiles are taking this path so the market size will result in affordable wonderful gear. 

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    Good to see CA finally 'discover' AOIP.  I broke the ground over a year ago on HF with this thread I started.

    https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/audio-over-ip-rednet-3-16-review-aes67-sets-a-new-standard-for-computer-audio.806827/

     

    Yes AES67 offers some interesting advantages - but in the end I came back to USB.  That is after tweeking and experimenting with a pretty advanced AOIP setup - Rednet 3>Mutec MC-3+ USB (as AES reclocker)>Antelope OCX WClock.

     

    My latest hybrid USB/Ethernet chain just smokes the best I could get from AOIP.  For me AOIP had a sterile quality and lacked the ultimate in dynamics - I found myself bored with the SQ.  But with my USB/Ethernet chain the thrill is back - dynamics to knock your socks off - but with a tonal richness and density that the best my $30K near sota analog rig could barely muster.  At a fraction of the cost of either the Rednet/Mutec/Antelope I sold or even just the Dynavector XV-1S cartridge in my old analog rig.

     

    USB still rules the day - but it takes work! And a host of Ethernet/USB devices in the chain - and ultimately ultra clean LPS power.

     

    The overpriced Ravenna box ($10500 for this? SMPS???) is kinda of a joke - as was covered extensively many months ago on my AOIP Thread (I coined this phase versus the commonly used AoIP which includes non level 3 RTPIP/TCPIP protocol AVB).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_over_Ethernet

     

    The Ravenna built is just a lowly set of Sabre (the old ones) DAC chips cabled to a AES67 Ravenna board(similar to the old HAPI) See 6Moons review from 2015:

    http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/merging/1.html

     

    Trust me - USB is alive and growing! And the SQ I've been able to create is world class -  the best I have heard in 30yrs of high end audio.  Just truly extraordinary.  I will launch a thread here soon with the details.

     

    Many new USB sota devices like the ISO Regen, and Matrix X-SPDIF 2 will likely take this path unto even greater levels of audio performance - at a fraction of the cost.

     

    Cheers!

    nadac.jpg

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    Obviously these are my subjective ratings YMMV - and yes I have owned (had a loaner) all these for an extended period of time:

     

    Anybody else made a direct comparison of AOIP and USB/Ethernet over an extended period of time?  

    'Epitome' Hybrid USB/Ethernet GB LAN chain (see post on the prior page and page 100) 500 - YES it's that good! :mrgreen: 
    'Ultra' Hybrid USB/Ethernet GB LAN chain (details to long to list) 370
    BURL B2B DAC with DANTE Brooklyn II/ modded w/LPS power 285
    REDNET 3/Cerious Graphene/Mutec 3+ USB (SPDIF)/Antelope OCX (RN wClock) 270
    REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ USB/Audience au24 se digital cable 250
    REDNET 3/Cerious/Mutec 3+ USB (SPDIF reclocker)/AS Sliver Statement dig cable 240 - Right about here is where I felt my old $30k Analog rig was finally surpassed (VPI Super Scout Master Signature/Dynavector XV1-S/all Nordost Vahalla cabling including the VPI tonearm/Bent Audio Silver Step-Up transformers/Conrad Johnson totl tubed Phono Pre-amp/Siemens CCa early '60s NOS tubes).
    REDNET 3/Cerious Power Cord 220
    Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2/Startech GB LAN Iso USB 170
    Mutec 3+ Smart Clock USB/Cerious Power Cord 155
    Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/ iPur2 145
    PUC2 Lite TeraDak DC30W/Cerious/Regen 135
    Singxer F-1 DC30W/Cerious 135
    DXIO Silver/TeraDak DC-30W/Cerious 130
    Singxer X-1 DC30W/Cerious/Recovery/DCiPur/iPur2 125
    PUC2 Lite - USB power 110
    Singxer F-1 Stock feed 110
    Breeze/Cerious Graph/WBT RCA Nexgen 109
    Breeze DU-U8 with Cerious Graphene 108
    Breeze DU-U8 (Talema version) 100
    Breeze DU-U8 (BingZi version) 95
    Hydra Z with LPS 92
    Melodious MX-U8 (upgraded caps) 85
    Melodious MX-U8 (stock) 81
    Gustard U12 (upgraded caps) 76
    Gustard U12 stock 72
    iDAC DAC2 (used as a DDC) 65
    Musiland USB3.0 US Dragon 65
    M2Tech EVO with LPS 60
    Audiophileo 2 USB Power 50
    M2Tech Hiface 40

     

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    8 hours ago, rb2013 said:

    Obviously these are my subjective ratings YMMV - and yes I have owned (had a loaner) all these for an extended period of time.

    Wow.

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    9 hours ago, rb2013 said:

    Epitome' Hybrid USB/Ethernet GB LAN chain (see post on the prior page and page 100) 500 - YES it's that good! :mrgreen: 

     

    Where are you currently discussing your latest findings i.e. "page 100"?

     

    Thanks!

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    9 hours ago, rb2013 said:

    My latest hybrid USB/Ethernet chain just smokes the best I could get from AOIP.  For me AOIP had a sterile quality and lacked the ultimate in dynamics - I found myself bored with the SQ.  But with my USB/Ethernet chain the thrill is back - dynamics to knock your socks off - but with a tonal richness and density that the best my $30K near sota analog rig could barely muster.  At a fraction of the cost of either the Rednet/Mutec/Antelope I sold or even just the Dynavector XV-1S cartridge in my old analog rig.

     

    Hi.  I am trying to start to read/catch up with your Epitome stuff and it looks very interesting.  A couple of questions:

    1) the Lex and Rx nomenclature doen't seem to come from Icron or Startech; are those your own names, and if so is it becuase each box has also been modded?

    2) what do you think the the full BOM $$ amount is, since you called it a fraction of the price of other solutions?

    3) where would the first step (simply using Icron/Startech and some goos power supplies) fit in you ranking (100-500) for us to get started?

     

    ths again...very interesting

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    1 hour ago, mourip said:

     

    Where are you currently discussing your latest findings i.e. "page 100"?

     

    Thanks!

    Hey Mourip,

     

    Currently USAM - but will start a thread here soon.  The USAM thread has already gotten to big! 122 pages 1816 posts.

    http://www.usaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1172

     

    Cheers!

     

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    53 minutes ago, ted_b said:

    Hi.  I am trying to start to read/catch up with your Epitome stuff and it looks very interesting.  A couple of questions:

    1) the Lex and Rx nomenclature doen't seem to come from Icron or Startech; are those your own names, and if so is it becuase each box has also been modded?

    2) what do you think the the full BOM $$ amount is, since you called it a fraction of the price of other solutions?

    3) where would the first step (simply using Icron/Startech and some goos power supplies) fit in you ranking (100-500) for us to get started?

     

    ths again...very interesting

    Hi,

    It has been an amazing journey these last few years.  If someone told me 10 yrs ago I'd have a gaggle of USB gizmos provide a better SQ then my near sota analog source - I would have laughed myself silly.

     

    But here I am, and the sound I'm getting from this hybrid USB/Ethernet chain is simply stunning.  And like AES67, I can transmit it through a GB LAN switch (like the LanRover).

     

    To your questions:

    1)The LEX and REX nomenclature comes from ICRON I believe.  The LEX is the transmitter (takes USB from the PC and converts to TCPIP packets), the REX is the receiver (takes the TCPIP packets from Ethernet and converts back to USB packets).  No mods on the either - but upgraded the power supplies from the included SMPS to LPS.  Thanks to Paul McGowan from PS Audio and his epic Youtube video that set this all in motion (unfortunately the LanRover has only one port - and the Startech/IRON offer a four port model for less.  The extra ports are critical - to run SLC mSD or large USB sticks with the music files).

    2)Total cost is around $1400 using an F-1 as the final USB to SPDIF DDC.  Power supplies are low noise R-core Chinese LPSs, with ultra low noise, super high PSRR LT3045 boxes after.  This keeps the cost down and with the LT3045's allows for multiple devices to share one LPS.  The ICRON USB Ranger 2.0 2304GE-LAN 4port - in place of the Startech (ICRON is the OEM for Startech).  Note there is just one version of the Startech/ICRON that has the magic - not the cheaper versions.  People who have been disappointment bought the wrong one - thinking they were saving money.

    https://www.icronshop.com/icron-brand/icron-ranger-2304ge-lan

     

    The Rednet 3 alone costs $999 + Mutec MC-3+ USB $1099+Antelope OCX runs from $700 used to $1200 for the newest version.  Some folks went with the Rednet d16 that has a AES port - it's $1599. 

     And like most 'Proaudio' gear they  use SMPS -  Ugg!

     

     3)On page 100 on the USAM thread I kind of breakdown where to start.  But I'd say start with a F-1, ICRON, and RuR.  I have yet to hear the ISO Regen  - and that may supersede the RuR 0 but a greater cost.  Same for the new Matrix Digital X-SPDIF 2, replacing the F-1 (certainly the SU-1).

     

    It's not simple, pretty, or sexy - but boy does it sure sound good.


    Cheers!

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    I want to say I enjoyed the interview and do believe there is promise with AES67 - cheaper boxes with better components and power supplies.  It does work - with Audinate's Dante version - their DVS (Digital Virtual Soundcard) was very stable and with some later revisions allows SR following from the music player.

     

    DVS appears on the PC just like any ASIO driver.  So works with any music player that can detect ASIO.

    Not sure about MAC's at this point - or the MT Ravenna drivers.

     

    There is another big technology here - Thunderbolt 3 - so we will see what that produces for us.

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    11 hours ago, rb2013 said:

    Anybody else made a direct comparison of AOIP and USB/Ethernet over an extended period of time?  

     

    Hey Rob,

     

    Good to see you in these parts.

     

    As I think you know, I have made that comparison.

     

    I certainly didn't do it with the exact chain you're currently using so I can't comment on a direct comparison between our front ends.

     

    But I have preferred my Rednet D16 up to this point.

     

    I'm glad others on this site will get to benefit from all the research you've done.

     

    I know I have.

     

    Joel

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    9 minutes ago, rb2013 said:

     

    There is another big technology here - Thunderbolt 3 - so we will see what that produces for us.

    +1

     

    Matt

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    18 minutes ago, rb2013 said:

    ICRON USB Ranger 2.0 2304GE-LAN 4port

    Did you ever compare this to the Adnaco S3B?

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    29 minutes ago, joelha said:

    Hey Rob,

     

    Good to see you in these parts.

     

    As I think you know, I have made that comparison.

     

    I certainly didn't do it with the exact chain you're currently using so I can't comment on a direct comparison between our front ends.

     

    But I have preferred my Rednet D16 up to this point.

     

    I'm glad others on this site will get to benefit from all the research you've done.

     

    I know I have.

     

    Joel

    Hi Joel,

     

    Yes it's been overdue to share this here.

     

    I agree - in fact I ranked the Startech + F-1 at 170 and just the Rednet 3 at 220 in my subject rankings above.

     

    But these other parts of the 'Epitome' Hybrid USB chain are absolutely critical.  In fact, my return to USB was spurred by a PM I received asking if I had ever tried running music files from a USB stick in the REX.  So I did try it - a cheap old 8GB I had - I was impressed.  Better yet a new PNY 256GB stick.  That was the deciding factors to move away from AOIP back to USB and became the core of the 'Ultra' USB Chain (including upgrading the LPS on the REX to a MEIYAN discrete 11uv).  Later I tried a SLC mSD and that became part of the 'Ultra+" chain - they are not cheap but for critical listening key.

     

    Later better PS's - adding 0.8uv LT3045 boxes post the DC-30W LPS's (modded with ultra low impedance Nichicon HW caps).  And heavily shielded (quad star twist silver/teflon  wire) DC cables and connectors - brought the level of detail to incredible levels.  Lowering the noise floor further and increasing the already amazing clarity, transparency and dynamics.

     

    This became the core of the 'Epitome' USB chain.  PS quality is paramount for any of these devices with ultra sensitive femto clocks.

     

    That said - I know some of the folks pursued replacing those $8 SMPS's built into the Rednets with external LPS's.  I did do the same with a friend on the BURL B2 DAC (with built in DANTE Brooklyn II AES67 card) and it really helped.  But I missed my tube DACs - and I still had a hint of that sterile clinicalness, a bit boring in the dynamics department.  

     

    Now each listening experience is a thrill.  Biggest issue is where to set the volume as the dynamics are so tremendous.

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    33 minutes ago, rickca said:

    Did you ever compare this to the Adnaco S3B?

    Not that particluar extender - but a few others - including a non GB LAN Startech.  They all sounded pretty bad.

    I had experiments with a pair of SMC fiber boxes in the Ethernet link.  It helped a bit with the AOIP if I remember correctly (but they each needed their own LPS's not the included SMPS to sound good).

     

    With the Startech - it was not worth it.  I already had 3 LPS's with the SMC fiber that added one or two more.

     

    Using a BJC Cat6a (500Mhz) UTP cable did help things.  and while remaining with a short UTP (now I run a 12inch one) - galvanic isolation from the PC was maintained.

     

    At one point I toyed with getting a GISO Ethernet isolator to try on the AOIP Chain - but never did.  They are not cheap.  I did get a Baaske MI 1005 Medical Ethernet Isolator.  Not good!

     

    Also toyed with adding a Rubidium Atomic 10MX Wclock to the Antelope OCX in the AOIP chain - but those are very expensive.

     

    https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/10MX?product_id=10MX&campaigntype=shopping&campaign=aaShopping%20-%20Core&adgroup=Studio%20%26%20Recording%20-%20Other&placement=google&adpos=1o1&creative=54989979481&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhubQq_Dq1AIVh25-Ch1S8gQWEAYYASABEgL6ZvD_BwE

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    rb2013, I already use an SU-1 (reviewed it here with the Holo Spirng dac and posted numerous times about it, with mods, LPS1 options, etc) so are you saying the $1400+ included the F-1 USB/SPDIF box, cuz that is not needed by many of us?  Thx

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    26 minutes ago, ted_b said:

    rb2013, I already use an SU-1 (reviewed it here with the Holo Spirng dac and posted numerous times about it, with mods, LPS1 options, etc) so are you saying the $1400+ included the F-1 USB/SPDIF box, cuz that is not needed by many of us?  Thx

    Yes that's right.  The SU-1 of course is the brother of the F-1.  FWIW I was the guy who first posted about the Singxer DDC's on my XU208 thread on HF over a year ago.  They are excellent.  I would highly recommend by passing the SU-1's mediocre PS and going external with an R-Core LPS + LT3045 5VDC.

     

    That said this new Matrix SPDIF-2 looks very good (thanks Asimov!)- AccuSilicon clocks - better then the almighty Cyrtek CCHD-575's used by Singxer.  I have not heard the Matrix - but the design looks very promising and it's the same price as the SU-1 (has i2s, AES and SPDIF output - best it has a DC power input - so no need to mod it for better power supplies).


    USB is moving at light speed now - with break through products appearing weekly.. Cunias (JK) and his very interesting battery powered DDC's.  And what does my friend Mr Chen at Singxer have up his sleeve next?  I've asked him to make a F-1/SU-1 with LT3042 LDO's in place of those ADP150's and better DCtoDC converters (LT3042's PLEASE!) - ext DC power on the SU-1.  

     

    I am a little disappointed that AES67 just never rooted in our high end consumer audio - even out of the Chinese market.  I expected to see multiple AES67  Dante DDC's by now - cheaper then $1K for sure and 

    with better build components and power supplies.  I mean Audinate sells the DVS s/w for $29 for a permanent liscense.  And BURL sells the Dante Brooklyn II cards for $250 to add to their boxes (must buy them for around $125).  So all that is needed is a microPCI slot and some control chips.  The BKII card already has the clocks.

     

    So for right now USB and USB/Ethernet is where the action is.

    We'll see what comes next.  Good times to be into computer audio!

    http://www.matrix-digi.com/en/products/158/index.html#page1

     

     

    xspdif_4.png

    carte-dante-pour-burl-b2-adc.jpg

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    On 7/2/2017 at 1:12 PM, rb2013 said:


    'Epitome' Hybrid USB/Ethernet GB LAN chain (see post on the prior page and page 100) 500 - YES it's that good! :mrgreen: 

     

    Hi, I tried to look at page 100 here but I can't find the list of components that make up this epitome hybrid LAN chain :-(

     

    https://www.usaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1172&start=1485

     

    Can you direct me to the page that lists all the components of this chain or copy and paste here?

     

    Many thanks in advance

     

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    14 hours ago, rb2013 said:

    That said - I know some of the folks pursued replacing those $8 SMPS's built into the Rednets with external LPS's.  I did do the same with a friend on the BURL B2 DAC (with built in DANTE Brooklyn II AES67 card) and it really helped.  But I missed my tube DACs - and I still had a hint of that sterile clinicalness, a bit boring in the dynamics department. 

     

    I've been quietly reading the AOIP  and DIY thread on Head-Fi and was not a bit surprised when those folks who are pushing the limits of it by replacing the PS of their units with external LPS's was rewarded with improved sound quality. I know for a fact that SMPS are noisy power supplys and no match for Linear supply's.

     

    I also read some of those guys using LPS's on their LiveClocks and Mutec MC3 units and were reporting increased dynamics, clarity and realism.

     

    Since you mentioned that you had a Rednet unit before, I was just wondering if you would have a different opinion if you had the chance to replace it's internal PS with an LPS and then connect it to your Tube DACs.

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    By the way, I am also on the AOIP bandwagon and currently running a Rednet 3, LiveClock and Mutec MC3+ USB all modified with LPS's and I agree with those folks on HeadFi that it was a major leap in SQ. The best that I'm hearing from computer audio ever.

    Sometime next week will be receiving a Stanford Research PERF10 Rubidium clock with the optional 12VDC input so it can also benefit from the use of an external LPS.

     

    CA is a little late with this network audio thing since it was all explored and pioneered on Head-fi last year, Thanks no less to you rb2013 and a few daring folks who experimented on it over there.

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    Just like to thank Chris @The Computer Audiophile and Don @dbrulhart for the great interview. Hopefully this is a format you can use more Chris as it's great to hear directly from the enthusiast innovators and manufacturers. 

     

    Dom, the zman and Raveena really seem to have the capacity to be a game changer in this arena. Certainly my next DAC and speaker purchases may we'll be different (and delayed) after having listened. I was particularly impressed the way you didn't rubbish DNLA, I'm always wary of people who feel they need to put down competitors in order to glorify their own product. 

     

    .sjb

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