Should You Rent or Buy Audio Software?

Just now, firedog said:

True. Remember when little we did was web based (especially pre smartphones)? Wasn't that long ago.

Yes. Crazy.

Fair enough, Chris.  As someone who has typically been positive towards your content here.  Nothing is to be gained by pursuing this further.  

There has been endless bitching about Adobe and Autodesk going rental.  Some folks say it's a war on creative professionals.  

9 minutes ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

There has been endless bitching about Adobe and Autodesk going rental.  Some folks say it's a war on creative professionals.  

I used to purchase the creative suite once every few releases. Now I subscribe and have everything for roughly $50 per month. 

I haven't done the math but it seems like I'm coming out ahead.

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I used to purchase the creative suite once every few releases. Now I subscribe and have everything for roughly $50 per month. 

 

I haven't done the math but it seems like I'm coming out ahead.

Fortunately, all I need is Photoshop which is leased at a tolerable $10 month.  Just search any photography forum to find all the screaming.

Just now, Ron Scubadiver said:

Fortunately, all I need is Photoshop which is leased at a tolerable $10 month.  Just search any photography forum to find all the screaming.

I wonder how much of this is based on facts or how much is emotional. People feel like they are getting ripped off. Not saying anyone is right or wrong though. 

6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I wonder how much of this is based on facts or how much is emotional. People feel like they are getting ripped off. Not saying anyone is right or wrong though. 

Some of each.  There are lots of photographers hanging onto old versions of Photoshop. 

Personally, the question of whether to buy or rent is a secondary consideration to me. By far the most important consideration is what the software does for me. 

I own an Aries (full size LPS, don't use it anymore), Audirvana, JRiver, HQPlayer, can use the dCS app on my Rossini, and I am a lifetime Roon subscriber. My vote goes to Roon far far far and away...

(removed a slightly dickish comment above... )

1 hour ago, miguelito said:

Personally, the question of whether to buy or rent is a secondary consideration to me. By far the most important consideration is what the software does for me. 

 

 

I agree. If you want something that will work for you and there is a price then either pay it or do without.

I also use Roon and while it is not perfect, it is constantly being improved and that process is not free. With Roon, I can stream Tidal into HQPlayer and then to my DAC. There is no other way I know of to make this happen so I happily pay the fee. Prior to Roon, I used LMS and ickStream and was happy when it worked (which was not always a given) but using HQPlayer was not an option. Yes it was free but it was often not worth the constant grief it took to keep it working. Many times you do actually get exactly what you pay for.

5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I used to purchase the creative suite once every few releases. Now I subscribe and have everything for roughly $50 per month. 

 

I haven't done the math but it seems like I'm coming out ahead.

For something you use professionally on a daily basis and require the latest version, subscription is likely to be more economical. The losers are the occasional users who may be content with skipping some releases since they probably only use the basic features anyway.

The obsolescence problem wgscott discusses is of course an issue. However, it is not exclusive to the subscription model. It's not hard to find old files that can only be opened with some ancient software that only runs on Windows 98. This, of course, doesn't work on modern computers, even if you could find a legal copy. Your only option is then to find an illicit Win98 copy and run it in a VM. If your old proprietary software requires a licence dongle plugged into the parallel port, start praying.

Another aspect is security. Any reasonably popular software will be the target of attacks, and all software has bugs. These days, it is imperative that vendors fix security issues quickly, and that users install the fixes. A continuous subscription model helps both vendors and users in this regard. Sure, old versions can receive security updates, but each maintained version adds cost that has to be covered by revenue from paying customers.

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I wonder how much of this is based on facts or how much is emotional. People feel like they are getting ripped off. Not saying anyone is right or wrong though. 

In my wife's case, she got fooled into auto-renewal.  (I had the same thing happen with Consumer Reports, of all things.)  What hurts is not making use of it because you wrongly think you are unsubscribed until you see your credit card statement. I accept responsibility in both cases, but they don't go out of their way to make it clear to the uninitiated.  In her case, it turns out it is easy to do everything she needed in Apple's Preview (or Imagemagick, which lives up to its name). The Gimp is another good option, BTW.  I still have Photoshop in CS3, which somehow keeps working.

She and I are pretty much the extreme case of @mansr's occasional lusers.

This article from Scientific American is old but but much of what is in it still holds true today.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/adobe-software-subscription-model-means-you-cant-own-your-software/

One thing they don't address in the article is the genesis of subscription software. Before subscriptions, you would buy a product, and every once in a while the software company would issue an update of fixes and sometimes a few added features. Congress decided this was giving added value that the customer hadn't paid any taxes on and passed legislation so they could harvest even more of our hard-earned dollars for themselves. The software companies solution to this was software subscriptions; congressional greed was satisfied, and when the software companies realized increased profits and discovered they now had a captive audience, the practice became increasingly popular, and that's how we got to where we are today.

I used to buy Photoshop every few years, like many others mentioned in the SA article above. Adobe continually added new features, and it's a very good program, but the fact is most people don't need a large number of those added features and would be much happier (and wealthier) if only they could upgrade every few years (and some, if they never upgraded beyond the original version they purchased). It's just one more example of corporate greed IMHO; YMMV.

3 hours ago, mansr said:

For something you use professionally on a daily basis and require the latest version, subscription is likely to be more economical. The losers are the occasional users who may be content with skipping some releases since they probably only use the basic features anyway.

 

The obsolescence problem wgscott discusses is of course an issue. However, it is not exclusive to the subscription model. It's not hard to find old files that can only be opened with some ancient software that only runs on Windows 98. This, of course, doesn't work on modern computers, even if you could find a legal copy. Your only option is then to find an illicit Win98 copy and run it in a VM. If your old proprietary software requires a licence dongle plugged into the parallel port, start praying.

 

Another aspect is security. Any reasonably popular software will be the target of attacks, and all software has bugs. These days, it is imperative that vendors fix security issues quickly, and that users install the fixes. A continuous subscription model helps both vendors and users in this regard. Sure, old versions can receive security updates, but each maintained version adds cost that has to be covered by revenue from paying customers.

"... and all software has bugs."

Customers are not responsible the bugs that the software company wrote into their software, and should not have to pay anything to get someone else's mistake corrected. That's like saying that every customer that had to have their Takata airbags replaced should pay Takata for that dubious 'privilege'.

"These days, it is imperative that vendors fix security issues quickly, and that users install the fixes. A continuous subscription model helps both vendors and users in this regard. Sure, old versions can receive security updates, but each maintained version adds cost that has to be covered by revenue from paying customers."

Before subscriptions, these costs were already being factored into the price of the software. Adobe did not become an industry giant by having a business model that didn't take into account every red and black entry in the ledger before setting a price for their product. 

37 minutes ago, BluRay444 said:

One thing they don't address in the article is the genesis of subscription software.

Good probability IBM software leasing back to old mainframe days.

10 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Talking about software 20 years from now is like talking about which curtains you want for your house on Mars. Sure we'll get there (Mars and software in 20 years), but the topics of discussion will likely be a bit different :~)

Very true. In 20 years, we'll probably be arguing about whether or not graphene makes our audio neural implants sound better. ?

We don't buy software, we never own it.

We buy a license with quite a lengthy contract attached.. and this is called a perpetual license

This is different from buying a book, or compact disc that you fullu own and can sell

10 hours ago, BluRay444 said:

"... and all software has bugs."

Customers are not responsible the bugs that the software company wrote into their software, and should not have to pay anything to get someone else's mistake corrected. That's like saying that every customer that had to have their Takata airbags replaced should pay Takata for that dubious 'privilege'.

Just where do you think the money comes from? A company has one source of revenue, its customers.

Quote

"These days, it is imperative that vendors fix security issues quickly, and that users install the fixes. A continuous subscription model helps both vendors and users in this regard. Sure, old versions can receive security updates, but each maintained version adds cost that has to be covered by revenue from paying customers."

Before subscriptions, these costs were already being factored into the price of the software. Adobe did not become an industry giant by having a business model that didn't take into account every red and black entry in the ledger before setting a price for their product. 

If the cost of maintaining a product in perpetuity were factored into the initial asking price, this would become infinite. In reality, what happens is that income from ongoing sales is split between new development and maintenance of old releases (and some is kept as profit, of course). The fewer old versions require maintaining, the more resources are available for developing new features. This is why most companies set a cutoff date for each release, after which it will be unsupported. Supporting every release indefinitely would lead to ever increasing costs. To cover these, the price of new versions would have to increase exponentially. With a subscription, everybody is always using the same version, so none of that matters.

Chris, I don't think you have given sufficient emphasis to the free options. You appear to be saying "Oh by the way there's some free software" , mention a few names and leave it at that.

I do all my listening using free software. All Windows based; foobar2000  as renderer, MinimServer as server, Linn Kazoo as control point .

Foobar has plugins for SACD ISO, DSD playback & ASIO. MinimServer just works and has in-depth forum support from its author. I think Linn would like to think that Kazoo is only used with their expensive gear but it's substantially based on open source software so is free.

edit Oops! I forgot the very wonderful BubbleUPnP server helper (also free & authored by the same person who does a UPnP plugin for foobar)

11 hours ago, serendipitydawg said:

Chris, I don't think you have given sufficient emphasis to the free options. You appear to be saying "Oh by the way there's some free software" , mention a few names and leave it at that.

 

I do all my listening using free software. All Windows based; foobar2000  as renderer, MinimServer as server, Linn Kazoo as control point .

 

Foobar has plugins for SACD ISO, DSD playback & ASIO. MinimServer just works and has in-depth forum support from its author. I think Linn would like to think that Kazoo is only used with their expensive gear but it's substantially based on open source software so is free.

 

edit Oops! I forgot the very wonderful BubbleUPnP server helper (also free & authored by the same person who does a UPnP plugin for foobar)

The free software is great. Many people find it too time consuming or difficult. I find it interesting how people who are good at  using such programs have little understanding that a getting program like Foobar to do all those things is overwhelming for many. 

 Foobar does all those things in theory. Lots of people don't manage to get all of them working . The basic UI is pretty terrible and requires a fair amount of tweaking to get it to the point that most users find acceptable. 

If it works for you and you are willing to put in the time and effort - great. Lots of people would rather buy something that "just works" from the moment you install it. 

One thought has particularly nagged at me regarding the lifetime subscription for Roon - if users all took the lifetime option, how long would it before the accountants worked out there was little financial benefit to continuing the business? 

Roon is aimed at a very niche market so there must be a fairly low "peak" point, even allowing for hardware licensing fees. Perhaps the lifetime option would be removed before this state was reached. Some of the business people I have met in the past would definitely take the sell the company, or close the business options instead. 

I'm not having a go at Roon because this issue applies to any lifetime subscription model. 

1 hour ago, church_mouse said:

One thought has particularly nagged at me regarding the lifetime subscription for Roon - if users all took the lifetime option, how long would it before the accountants worked out there was little financial benefit to continuing the business? 

 

Roon is aimed at a very niche market so there must be a fairly low "peak" point, even allowing for hardware licensing fees. Perhaps the lifetime option would be removed before this state was reached. Some of the business people I have met in the past would definitely take the sell the company, or close the business options instead. 

 

I'm not having a go at Roon because this issue applies to any lifetime subscription model. 

 

Not sure I get your point, in light of reality. In a purely theoretical sense you are probably correct. But so what?

First, I expect they will stop offering the lifetime subscription at some point. And as far as I can tell the large majority of subscribers are not lifetime.  Certainly if the situation was as you fear, they'd stop offering it and see how many new subscribers they continue to get. 

As far as the lifetime subscription, your risk is that you pay the fee and the company goes under in less than 4 years. Anything over 4 years, and you are in the same position as a one year subscriber if the company fails.  After that point, you essentially are coming out ahead.

Everyone's ability to deal with risk is different, so there's no right answer here. But its important to put the question in the proper perspective. 

@firedog - I am sure you are correct.  I think I may be scarred by some of the people I have met in my business dealings.

9 hours ago, firedog said:

Lots of people would rather buy something that "just works" from the moment you install it. 

What software (Windows 7) would you suggest that does upsampling, DSD & UPnP?

9 hours ago, firedog said:

The basic UI is pretty terrible and requires a fair amount of tweaking to get it to the point that most users find acceptable. 

Hence the server software and control point (all running on the same PC). Initially I found it painfully easy to crib someone else's configuration (which are widely available online) and go from there

9 hours ago, firedog said:

I find it interesting how people who are good at  using such programs have little understanding that a getting program like Foobar to do all those things is overwhelming for many.

I probably have an equal understanding of this. Frankly I don't care as long as I understand how to do something. I would not consider myself as "good". On a personal note I found jRiver perplexing at best & irritating at worst. I am pretty sure I could talk the dumbest of my acquaitances though setting up foobar on the phone (does that make me "good"??)

52 minutes ago, serendipitydawg said:

What software (Windows 7) would you suggest that does upsampling, DSD & UPnP?

 

Do you have Roon ?

Of cause I’m sure you aware HQPlayer ?