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    The Computer Audiophile

    Notes From a Disconnected Axpona

    This is not a show report. 

     

    I'm well aware that show reports are great click bait and drive a large amount of traffic, but I'm just not feeling it right now. I've been dreading writing something about Axpona all week. Not because I didn't have a good time at the show. I've been hesitant because I had a really good time at the show and it didn't revolve around 99.9% of the rooms and equipment on display. Writing show reports with sonic assessments and pretty equipment pictures doesn't excite me (for the most part). Noisy hotel rooms and really bad acoustics don't lead to good conditions for listening to music and assessing equipment. Kid yourself all you want, I'm just stating the facts. Some rooms at the show were a breath of fresh air, where sonic assessments were possible. I'll get to those in a bit. What I really want to discuss is a huge disconnect between consumers and "the industry." 

     

    First, a little background. At 5:30 PM on the first day of the show, I ran into CA contributor ted_b. He mentioned that a group of people from the CA community were meeting in the bar and he invited me to attend. Of course I was all in. This is the best part of my job, meeting the people with which I have so much in common and those who make this job possible. Over the course of an hour we all struggled to get words in because there was so much to discuss. I felt like these guys were friends I hadn't seen in twenty years. 

     

    We discussed a couple rooms that were enjoyable and a couple components on our recommended lists. However, for much of the conversation we all talked about music. And here's the disconnect, nobody talked about Diana Krall, Rebecca Pidgeon, or the latest quad DSD or 24/384 recording of a guy beating tree trunks with Japanese urushi drumsticks. If you like that stuff, I'm very happy for you because you'll be in heaven at a HiFi show. We all talked about music made by the likes of David Bowie, Bruce Springsteen, Blind faith, Radiohead, Led Zeppelin, Pearl Jam, and Prince. I have to ask, why is it that none of these artists graced a single playlist in any of the rooms in which I visited?

     

    Talk about disconnect. Not only did our group of people enjoy "real" music rather than stereotypical audiophile crap, so did many of the people I talked to within the industry. I can't count how many times I've been told by people putting on demonstrations, that they'd rather stick pencils in their necks than listen to Hugh Masekela one more time. Here's a tip - STOP PLAYING IT! 

     

    Why does the industry cater to one segment of consumers, to the detriment of all others? HiFi is a small niche. Within this niche is another niche of people who like traditional audiophile music. As an industry we cater to to that niche within a niche, yet we complain about not attracting more civilians to our hobby. Hello! When is the last time you visited an unpleasant place and thought, "I should go back there again." An audio show where people bring significant others and children, should be about reaching out, not fighting over the last members of a dying breed (literally). 

     

    After the second day of the show, I met up with a longtime member of the CA community, who was actually in attendance at the Computer Audiophile Symposium at Fantasy Studios in Berkeley, CA back in 2009. It was great to talk with him about the show and all things HiFi. It was interesting to hear his opinion about entering the rooms and listening to whatever music was playing. He is a shy guy and didn't feel comfortable asking for specific music. Some of us who have been to way too many HiFi shows are totally fine with playing our own music, but I don't think we are in the majority. Why does the industry make people feel that playing Beyonce at a HiFi show is sacrilegious? I told this member of the CA community that I played Beyonce's Formation in the Quintessence Audio room on the 12th floor, and he sounded excited but a little sad that he missed it or couldn't do so himself. 

     

    Another item we discussed is value in HiFi and the prices of equipment. Neither of us have an issue with high priced equipment or even stratospherically priced equipment. Manufacturers only build what customers want and if customers can afford it, that's excellent. Heck, I wish I could afford more of the stuff about which I write. I relayed a story about the time I was fresh out of college in the late 1990s and saw/heard a pair of B&W Nautilus 802 loudspeakers at a local dealer for the first time. The speakers were $8,000. I was an aspirational buyer at the time, with a job that didn't put me in the top tax bracket. I started putting money away and months later I purchased a pair of the 802s. I remember it like yesterday. 

     

    Sure $8,000 is a lot of money, but it was an obtainable amount for a guy working in IT right out of college (without kids or a house payment). Without objective data to support my opinion, I expressed that I thought much of HiFi was beyond the reach of aspirational buyers today. After the conversation I pulled up an inflation calculator to compare what the adjusted price of the 802 speakers would be in today's dollars and the current retail price. I realized this wasn't a longitudinal study and was full of irregularities, but it would give me one data point. I believe I bought the speakers in 1999 for $8,000. In today's dollars that would be $11,727 according to this calculator. The MSRP of a new pair of B&W 802 D3 loudspeakers in 2017 is $22,000. I have a hard time believing that a version of me, fresh out of college today, could even be an aspirational buyer of the B&W 802s. 

     

    Our discussion also touched on value. Value is a tough one because it's so subjective. A value for me isn't a value for my neighbor. However, this doesn't mean the subject is off limits. I don't mind spending a lot of money on something if there is perceived value. Streaming a couple movies on a private jet over the Atlantic ocean for $10,000 in data charges has no value to me (true story, not my money). Spending the same amount of money to put local storage of movies in that same jet has much more value. Ten grand is pocket change to some people, but those people don't like to waste money any more than me. 

     

    The $2,299 Schiit Audio Yggdrasil doesn't cost a lot of money for many people in this hobby, but it's more money that most civilians have in the bank. By most standards it's expensive, but I also consider it an incredible value. On the other hand, there are components and speakers that combine to make systems at or above $1,000,000. I completely understand the cost of goods made in small quantities, and the value of exclusivity etc... but comparing all the items one million dollars could purchase, makes me struggle to find value in a $1,000,000 audio system. A couple houses, a few Ferraris, a few outstanding college educations, etc... I would probably be much more inclined to see value in such an expensive audio system if I heard a demonstration and it was the best system I'd ever heard. Not the best system by 90%, but just the best system period. Even if it was only 5% better than a much cheaper system. At Axpona, there were some systems that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. I won't judge them based on the terrible show conditions, but based on my experience I can say there is little value in these systems as a whole. 


    Another disconnect I ran into at the show involved me sitting through 30 minutes of misinformation from a manufacturer. I entered his room, interested in a new product. There were other people listening to music and asking questions when I entered. I quietly sat on the side and listened to the conversations until I was asked a specific question, to which I gave an honest answer. The manufacturer was going on and on about how USB is the worst interface and he couldn't even listen to music through USB. Then he started in with DSD versus PCM and how one was clearly superior. Then he honestly told people that Tidal compressed the dynamic range of music more than the CD of the same music. As if someone at Tidal remastered millions of albums, but was able to somehow keep them bit-identical to the CD versions (I've tested this). This guy wasn't talking about data compression and FLAC, he was talking about dynamic range compression. I know this because he later went into data compression and why it's also the devil. 

     

    The bottom line is this, we had one guy telling people everything they are doing is wrong. Not only this, but he was using alternative facts to justify his statements. I don't care if he isn't a fan of USB interfaces. I do care that he was spewing misinformation to people who will spread that misinformation and cause others to waste money on needless upgrades and very possibly get turned off of this hobby eventually because of this crap. Misinformation isn't a successful longterm strategy.  

     

    In this same room, I had a writer from another publication engage me in a conversation about MQA. I don't remember who he was or what publication he wrote for and chances are good he has no idea who I am or what publication for which I write. No biggie. Anyway, this guy was 100% certain that MQA was first decoded by the USB interface, in addition to other things. I tried to provide some information about how MQA works and that USB has nothing to do with MQA, but he wasn't hearing any of it. In his mind he was right and he was there to spread the word. It was awkward in that room. Between the main conversations and my side conversation, I was turned off. Things like this don't happen in every room, but they happen more often that most people could imagine. It's things like this that are draining and they get old. This was an audio show. A pinnacle of HiFi performance where people from the area gather once per year to hear and see the best in the world, and talk amongst like-minded individuals. We should stop complaining about flaws in technologies such as USB, as if all other technologies are flawless, or the difficulty of computer networking, and start leading as an industry. Give people what they pay for and show them how to get the best out of any technology. Right now, I'm willing to bet the local Best Buy offers a better experience than Axpona and many HiFi shops. Networking and computers aren't the antithesis of audio and music reproduction. They aren't rocket science either. In 30 minutes the kid at best buy could have someone setup with a working wireless network and an audio system. It may not be the best, but it's better than the system the HiFi industry complains about and pushes away as if it's leprosy. OK, that was a little side rant that could the subject of an entire editorial, but I'll save it for another day.  


    Let's talk about the good times at Axpona. First and foremost, I enjoyed the Quintessence Audio room on the 12th floor (straight off the elevators), more than all other rooms combined. The room featured Dynaudio Contour 60 loudspeakers and a serious stack of Moon by Simaudio components. The digital source was an Aurender. The team at Quintessence really setup the room well, enabling people to hear the system more than the acoustics of the room. One afternoon the guys in the room let me control the playlist for what seemed like an hour. I kept queuing up tracks and listening like I was at home. Playing all my favorite music. Sure, a few people walked in and were scared off by Iggy Azalea's latest single Mo Bounce, but I would have been scared off by their Nils Lofgren albums had the situation been reversed. I played everything from Pearl Jam to Peter, Paul and Mary. I really liked how everything sounded in this room. The Moon gear was wonderful as usual. I really think the Dynaudio Contour 60 loudspeakers offer a great value and should have a long life for the company. Yes they are $10,000, but the equivalent speakers from other brands are double that price. 

     

    Imagine if civilian show-goers could have had the same fun experience that I had in the Quintessence room rather than disturbing the peace by walking in on a 32/768 kHz rendition of Kazakhstan Wind Chimes being listened to by some reviewer who has been in the business since I was nine years old, who expects the world to stop when he is listening. This isn't far from what I experienced at Axpona. A reviewer asked if anyone could name the music he played and some guy said, "that wasn't music!" He was right, it was a bunch of banging on things in high resolution. If people like that stuff, no worries. It's just not the kind of stuff that the people I know like and it's certainly not the kind of stuff that will attract anyone to this hobby. 

     

    Another room I really enjoyed featured Doshi analog components, dCS digital components, and Wilson Audio Yvette loudspeakers with Transparent cabling throughout. The system was setup well, even though the room was less than ideal. Nick Doshi was playing some jazz through the dCS gear, and I was mesmerized. I have no clue what album it was or even who the artist was, but I sat there enjoying the whole thing. It was an old school jazz club recording with stand-up bass and drums and improvisation. Great stuff. I remember listening and thinking that I needed to consider Doshi components and the Yvette loudspeakers in my system (the dCS is already here). That's how powerful good music is on a good system. I really hope civilians had the same experience in that room. After several minutes of the great jazz album, another guy working the room said he had some Donal Fagan queued up. I couldn't help but to speak up to say I was completely satisfied with the current track and that I'd heard Donald Fagan about 1000 times at shows in the past. Thus, I'd rather not hear Morph the Cat again. Anyway, this room was a blast that made me rethink my current system.  

     

     

    Wrap-up

     

    I'm not holier than thou. I don't care why you are into this hobby. For music, for gear, or to spend all the money you inherited or married into, is of no concern to me. I honestly really don't care. I'm the most nonjudgemental person you'll ever meet. If you like HiFi because it looks cool and impresses your friends, I am honestly happy because it's making you happy. This editorial wasn't meant as an indictment on the motives of my fellow audiophiles. Rather, it was to express a little frustration about a big disconnect in the industry. Axpona wasn't the cause and wasn't the first place I witnessed this disconnect. It just sparked me to write this editorial. Perhaps the time spent with a few really smart guys in the industry sparked me to write this as well. There are a few guys in the industry who aren't clinging to the old way of doing business and who have great vision for the future. These guys inspired me at Axpona and made me realize this wonderful hobby will survive, but not in its current form. 

     

    People in the industry should ask themselves if they are having fun at these audio shows. The chances are high that the answer would be no. If they aren't having fun, how do they expect potential customers to have fun? As an industry, can we cater to more demographics than those on deck for the nursing home? That's not a slight against older people. I tell my five year old daughter all the time that older people are the best because they have so much experience and so many good stories from which she can learn. As an industry, can we cater to the music lover who is capable of talking about music with other people over a few beers at the bar, in addition to the guy with literally 10 CDs (5 of them different versions of Jazz at the Pawnshop)? 

     

    Let's close the gap between HiFi and everyone else on the planet. Music is a universal language that brings people together, unless it has been outlawed by those who see its power to change the world. 

     

     

     

    P.S. After writing this I questioned whether it should be published. I don't want to be seen as just another guy in the industry ranting about the industry. The industry is full of blowhards who do a great job of this already. Hopefully others will see at least a tiny bit of value in this editorial or at least get some enjoyment out of it or make a connection with some of my experiences. Please remember. I'm in this for the long haul. It's a marathon, not a sprint. I'm not the Minister of Information. I'm here for you, you aren't here for me. 




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    Chris:  I think you have described a significant business opportunity the audio industry may never recognize.  Music is a very personal taste. Good sound is highly room dependent.  But audio shows insist on selling their products by playing music that doesn't appeal to a majority of their market in rooms that make most systems sound bad, and if they sounded good in that hotel room, probably wouldn't in your living room.

     

    The headphone industry has solved both of these problems; a) they have eliminated the room as an issue and b) they allow you to just bring your music library with you and audition whatever you want.

     

    Why hasn't anyone been able to do this with traditional audio? Couldn't you build a business that comes to my house, allows me to demo a range of systems in my own room and using Tidal or other hi-res streaming, allow me to hear whatever I want on that system in the room where it will stay? Rather than individual manufacturers trying to offer subscale and costly demo programs, what if there was a service that offered 20-30 different systems and was capable enough to make on-the-fly choices about what might please a particular customer? 

     

    Maybe it's that many manufacturers fear that in such a listening environment, their expensive systems might not fare so well against much more moderately priced systems better suited for and adjusted to the customer's listening space and music habits? 

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    On 4/29/2017 at 5:45 AM, The Computer Audiophile said:

     

    Dare I say you're part of the problem. 

    I could not agree with you more, Chris

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    8 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

    Zu Audio always has a fun room I am told.

     

    But rubbish speakers...

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    On 4/28/2017 at 5:36 PM, boatheelmusic said:

    "David Bowie, Bruce Springsteen, Blind faith, Radiohead, Led Zeppelin, Pearl Jam, and Prince"

     

    Why in the world would anyone sully a high-end system with this rubbish?

     

    I agree.

     

    However, it's not about the style of music, it's about recording styles. Over processed, gimmicky, compressed, EQ'ed recordings versus natural sounding recordings otherwise known as audiophile recordings.

     

    Every time I play an AudioQuest Music electric guitar lead blues group on SACD, which are similar in style and have many of the same instruments as electronic rock music. I wonder why rock music isn’t recorded this way? It could be and I think it would be great.

     

    IMHO to hear the increased realism of better audio gear and high resolution formats one needs recordings that capture the realism of the original musical event.

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    Thanks for the article Chris.

     

    I just wanted to point out that Diana Krall doesn't record for an audiophile label. However, Rebecca Pidgeon does as she records for Chesky. And there is a lot more in authentic audiophile recordings besides guys beating tree trunks with Japanese urushi drumsticks.

     

    I have found when I bring my own favorite audiophile recordings with me to audio shows, they always play them for me.

     

    Major label and other non-audiophile recordings are made to sound good on cheap earbuds that come with iPods, iPhones, etc. Before that they were made to sound good on AM radio, boom boxes, etc. If one wants to hear how great music can sound and how enjoyable it is, forget the major labels and try recordings made for audiophiles with good equipment. I’m not talking about audiophile remasters of major label recordings but authentic audiophile recordings which are audiophile from the microphones to the finished product.

     

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    Seems like there are a few "audiophiles" (typed with my pinky in the air) in this thread disconnected along with Axpona!  I can imagine room after room playing 1812 with live canons, hows that for dynaimc range and a real test!

     

    No wonder the headphone shows are more interesting and fun!  They have learned to dial back the pretentiousness along with giving the audience the chance to personalize the audition in a way that the "finer equipment" rooms can't touch!

     

    I am afraid that the old guard is not dying off fast enough to refresh what is becoming a very stale industry.

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    10 hours ago, sdolezalek said:

    Chris:  I think you have described a significant business opportunity the audio industry may never recognize.  Music is a very personal taste. Good sound is highly room dependent.  But audio shows insist on selling their products by playing music that doesn't appeal to a majority of their market in rooms that make most systems sound bad, and if they sounded good in that hotel room, probably wouldn't in your living room.

     

    The headphone industry has solved both of these problems; a) they have eliminated the room as an issue and b) they allow you to just bring your music library with you and audition whatever you want.

     

    Why hasn't anyone been able to do this with traditional audio? Couldn't you build a business that comes to my house, allows me to demo a range of systems in my own room and using Tidal or other hi-res streaming, allow me to hear whatever I want on that system in the room where it will stay? Rather than individual manufacturers trying to offer subscale and costly demo programs, what if there was a service that offered 20-30 different systems and was capable enough to make on-the-fly choices about what might please a particular customer? 

     

    Maybe it's that many manufacturers fear that in such a listening environment, their expensive systems might not fare so well against much more moderately priced systems better suited for and adjusted to the customer's listening space and music habits? 

     

    I agree with a whole bunch of this.  About the business model for traditional audio not moving toward focus on demonstrating for potential customers at home, first there's simple inertia, which I think explains a lot.  Then there's the expense of getting set up to do this, and the expense of doing it, in return for what percentage of in-home demos turning into sales?  This would probably restrict these sorts of demos to higher dollar systems, and how many brick and mortar store owners feel they can count on having enough customers for such systems? 

     

    You've just raised your costs versus the online folks.  Now that your potential customer knows what equipment he/she likes and exactly how it will sound at home, what's to prevent him or her from pointing, clicking and possibly saving a few thousand bucks?

     

    OK, I've just raised a few possible objections.  But it's an intriguing idea, and if you have some notions about how to overcome these objections or why they wouldn't be substantial, I'm interested in hearing them.

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    Quote

    Sure $8,000 is a lot of money, but it was an obtainable amount for a guy working in IT right out of college (without kids or a house payment). Without objective data to support my opinion, I expressed that I thought much of HiFi was beyond the reach of aspirational buyers today. After the conversation I pulled up an inflation calculator to compare what the adjusted price of the 802 speakers would in today's dollars and the current retail price. I realize this isn't a longitudinal study and is full with irregularities, but it would give me one data point. I believe I bought the speakers in 1999 for $8,000. In today's dollars that would be $11,727 according to this calculator. The MSRP of a new pair of B&W 802 D3 loudspeakers in 2017 is $22,000. I have a hard time believing that a version of me, fresh out of college today, could even be an aspirational buyer of the B&W 802s. 

     

    Wow- that sure sums up a lot of how I feel about the industry.  Of course, when you mention this to a lot of industry people, they either point out the fantastic entry level stuff available, get very patronizing, or else act horribly insulted.  It makes me wonder if they are affecting a disconnect from reality purely for marketing reasons. Probably not with most, but there are a few... 

     

    Coincidentally, I was listening to a pair of speakers the other day, and thought they sounded extraordinary. Open, uncontested, reproducing some of my favorite music so well my daughter wanted to dance. (Which, considering it was the Canadian Brass' rendition of Mozarts "Queen of the Night" from _Tha Magic Flute_, is saying something.  

     

    I was almost convinced to buy them, not even knowing what they were - which  turned out to be B&W 805 D3s. I didn't expect them to be that, mainly because I heard them in a Magnolia (Best Buy) listening room. Of course, when I heard the model, and knew the price was $6K, I decided to think it over a little bit. That one over wife's objection - she wanted to buy them. :)  

     

    it was purely that they seemed priced above their value. My view of their value that is, not someone else's.  I have a little regret I didn't buy them, but that would lead to another whole round of upgraditis I think...

     

     

     

     

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    5 hours ago, semente said:

     

    But rubbish speakers...

     

     

    Why is that?

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    1 hour ago, Jud said:

     

    You just inspired me to look up his actual middle name.  I was so hoping it began with "F."  :D

     

    I have no idea, is it safe to assume it does not start with an "F"?

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    It is kind of stuffy in here...

     

    Maybe someone should write up a list of approved music so I can make sure to only play that.

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    On 29 April 2017 at 3:36 AM, boatheelmusic said:

    "David Bowie, Bruce Springsteen, Blind faith, Radiohead, Led Zeppelin, Pearl Jam, and Prince"

     

    Why in the world would anyone sully a high-end system with this rubbish?

    I listen to it on a high end system because I like the music and it sounds better on a high end system. 

     

    Btw, I also listen to string quartets recorded live for Native DSD. 

    I don't see any contradiction between the two.

    Some of the exquisitely recorded acoustic stuff on audiophile labels is boring and lame, IMO. 

     

    But, I don't go around calling what other people like rubbish.  You think some of what lots of like is rubbish; I'd venture a guess I think some of your collection is rubbish. So what? My opinion of your taste is about as worthless as yours about anybody else's.

     

    I appreciate a good recording as much as anybody; but I listen to music, not recordings.

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    40 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

     

    I have no idea, is it safe to assume it does not start with an "F"?

     

    It's Hugh.  :)

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    "Consumers" (and reviewers) have been complaining about the music played at audio shows for at least the past 5-6 years, and little has changed.  Face it, exhibitors usually want to play the music that they think makes their system sound good, regardless of what anyone else thinks.

     

    Why not use this soapbox to discuss a little bit more about how and why MQA is bad for the consumer and the audio hardware industry in general, and good only (or almost only) for the record companies and Meridian?

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    1 minute ago, rbbert said:

    "Consumers" (and reviewers) have been complaining about the music played at audio shows for at least the past 5-6 years, and little has changed.  Face it, exhibitors usually want to play the music that they think makes their system sound good, regardless of what anyone else thinks.

     

    Why not use this soapbox to discuss a little bit more about how and why MQA is bad for the consumer and the audio hardware industry in general, and good only (or almost only) for the record companies and Meridian?

     

    This isn't an either or soapbox. We can discuss countless items. 

     

    Based on my discussions with people in the industry, people have been complaining about the music at trade shows for decades. This doesn't preclude anyone from discussing it.

     

    If anyone has a crystal ball that depicts how MQA will affect the industry in the years to come, I'd be happy to talk to him/her. So far, I've seen massive speculation on how great and how bad MQA will be for everyone. I try to provide a forum where we can discuss both sides.

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    5 hours ago, Teresa said:

     

    I agree.

     

    However, it's not about the style of music, it's about recording styles. Over processed, gimmicky, compressed, EQ'ed recordings versus natural sounding recordings otherwise known as audiophile recordings.

     

    Every time I play an AudioQuest Music electric guitar lead blues group on SACD, which are similar in style and have many of the same instruments as electronic rock music. I wonder why rock music isn’t recorded this way? It could be and I think it would be great.

     

    IMHO to hear the increased realism of better audio gear and high resolution formats one needs recordings that capture the realism of the original musical event.

    For lots of recordings their is NO original musical event. They are studio creation-recordings and are intended to be - the studio and its effects are part of the music, as it were. Those recordings aren't supposed to sound real or natural.

     

    Sorry, but the  Audioquest "electric lead blues" records you like (and I have a few also) AREN'T the musical equivalent of Bowie, SRV, Led Zeppelin and the like. They are a different musical experience and style.  Shouldn't sound exactly the same.

     

    You know Segovia once said the electric guitar was an "abomination";does that mean there is something wrong with your taste or listening standards when you enjoy recordings of one? Does it mean you aren't listening like an audiophile?

     

    BTW, I also wish modern recordings were recorded a bit differently - at least with less volume compression - but I don't think it will be happening any time soon.

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    4 hours ago, Jud said:

     

    I agree with a whole bunch of this.  About the business model for traditional audio not moving toward focus on demonstrating for potential customers at home, first there's simple inertia, which I think explains a lot.  Then there's the expense of getting set up to do this, and the expense of doing it, in return for what percentage of in-home demos turning into sales?  This would probably restrict these sorts of demos to higher dollar systems, and how many brick and mortar store owners feel they can count on having enough customers for such systems? 

     

    You've just raised your costs versus the online folks.  Now that your potential customer knows what equipment he/she likes and exactly how it will sound at home, what's to prevent him or her from pointing, clicking and possibly saving a few thousand bucks?

     

    OK, I've just raised a few possible objections.  But it's an intriguing idea, and if you have some notions about how to overcome these objections or why they wouldn't be substantial, I'm interested in hearing them.

    Jud: All good points.  Here are some thoughts:

    1. This won't work for products you can buy online or products where the specs really do tell the story (it's why B&H Photo Video is single handedly putting the local camera store out of business, even with high-end cameras).  But it might work with audio (because specs don't tell the whole story and because of the room dependency), particularly with those brands that don't sell online and don't have showrooms in many parts of the country. 

    2. It won't help the brick and mortar store unless they are the one locally offering the service, but it could help the manufacturers, particularly the smaller, higher-end ones.  There are certainly aspects of this the larger custom home audio installers can do; but I have found that most of them just want to sell what they get the best deal on and prefer customers who let them choose the system for the customer.

    3. You can get around some of the test at home and buy online, by offering the service for an upfront fee that gets credited against later purchases. 

    4. Re the expense of getting started up, it would depend on whether you could get a core group of manufacturers to give you enough product to test this. Once you start selling, you are just restocking inventory so the risk for all drops dramatically. 

     

    Of course there is always the buy it and then just return it option for the customer.  In some cases that will cost you a restocking charge. But in almost all cases it introduces additional cost and frustration into the system -- shipping to you and back, repacking the box to "as new status," warranty issues re misuse during "testing," etc.  I buy this option for cables, far less so for speakers and delicate electronics. 

     

    Most importantly, with the exception of what we are all a part of on the software/computer end of the business, the non-headphone side of the audio business seems far too stuck in old ways, is doing far too little in the way of creative, entrepreneurial, new products and business models.  The high end seems more like the art world in which painters paint on in the hope that some wealthy benefactor will pay millions for one painting, I guess enough do so that it supports a whole industry of starving artists.  Not necessarily the role model i would choose for the audio industry...

     

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    1 minute ago, sdolezalek said:

    Jud: All good points.  Here are some thoughts:

    1. This won't work for products you can buy online or products where the specs really do tell the story (it's why B&H Photo Video is single handedly putting the local camera store out of business, even with high-end cameras).  But it might work with audio (because specs don't tell the whole story and because of the room dependency), particularly with those brands that don't sell online and don't have showrooms in many parts of the country. 

    2. It won't help the brick and mortar store unless they are the one locally offering the service, but it could help the manufacturers, particularly the smaller, higher-end ones.  There are certainly aspects of this the larger custom home audio installers can do; but I have found that most of them just want to sell what they get the best deal on and prefer customers who let them choose the system for the customer.

    3. You can get around some of the test at home and buy online, by offering the service for an upfront fee that gets credited against later purchases. 

    4. Re the expense of getting started up, it would depend on whether you could get a core group of manufacturers to give you enough product to test this. Once you start selling, you are just restocking inventory so the risk for all drops dramatically. 

     

    Of course there is always the buy it and then just return it option for the customer.  In some cases that will cost you a restocking charge. But in almost all cases it introduces additional cost and frustration into the system -- shipping to you and back, repacking the box to "as new status," warranty issues re misuse during "testing," etc.  I buy this option for cables, far less so for speakers and delicate electronics. 

     

    Most importantly, with the exception of what we are all a part of on the software/computer end of the business, the non-headphone side of the audio business seems far too stuck in old ways, is doing far too little in the way of creative, entrepreneurial, new products and business models.  The high end seems more like the art world in which painters paint on in the hope that some wealthy benefactor will pay millions for one painting, I guess enough do so that it supports a whole industry of starving artists.  Not necessarily the role model i would choose for the audio industry...

     

     

    Again, nodding in agreement with lots of this. 

     

    Regarding manufacturers: I think that's a big reason why manufacturers went through dealers and/or online in the first place.  :)  Schiit Audio, for instance, isn't stuck in the old ways and sells a fair amount of stuff, but their products certainly aren't high dollar enough to pay for people to travel around the country doing demos in potential customers' homes.  (And you wouldn't want them to be expensive enough to pay for that.)

     

    Let's think about a manufacturer more along the lines of what you were talking about, Spectral.  They don't have many dealers and don't sell online.  But do you think they would want to make product demonstration in hundreds of remote locations a core company function?  They'd probably want to hire staff to do that in various locations around the country - but hey, if they already have a few dealers, that's what they're there for, right?

     

    Even with these caveats, I fundamentally agree with you on the basic point: "[T]he non-headphone side of the audio business seems far too stuck in old ways, is doing far too little in the way of creative, entrepreneurial, new products and business models.  The high end seems more like the art world in which painters paint on in the hope that some wealthy benefactor will pay millions for one painting...."

     

    Thinking about what Chris said and my own time at shows, where making connections with and enjoying the company of "friends we haven't met before" is easily the best part of the experience, I wonder what the industry could do along the lines of the Schiit Show - essentially hosting a big, fun party for people interested in your stuff.  A manufacturer hosting multiple such "shows" in multiple locations might be an idea.

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    the real problems with the no dealers online sales models arises with speakers, esp. large ones

    2nd might be a heavy tube amp

     

    SS boxes are easy to ship & maybe return

     

    my problems with dealers are the lack of knowledge, tho I realize there are better jobs for the technically astute

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    Chris

    I agree with your basic statement on more music choices however maybe I have not gone to enough of these to fully appreciate what you are saying.  In fact I picked up at least 10 tracks that I used my trusty SoundHound app to zero in on the artist and title. I've been listening to these on and off this past week.   I've done this the last couple of years and have been rewarded with new adventures in audio.  One suggestion I made to Liz,  the Axpona coordinator,  was at time or sign up for us all to pick from 4-6 genre of music and then be issued colored badges or something to denote our choice.   So then the person doing the demo can tailor the music to the room.  Just a thought.  The other thing I did was to bring a stick of a few choice tracks but never got an opportunity and in the past many would not allow but I think more of that would make the show more interesting.  I think that would be another way to get other music choices playing.

     

    As far as rooms I thought that Doug's room The Voice that is, Paradigm new speakers or the Brian's of Bricasti were very good. Two of three were in normal rooms but some thought was put in to treating the room unlike many others.

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