Windows 7 Audio & J River Media Center 14 Configuration

One and a half · March 1, 2010

From my AB listening, the playback with ALAC files (16/44.1) on j River 14 and Foobar 2000 (V1.0) are different.

J River is by all means a very good player, however, Foobar has a better edge, cleaner sound, with higher definition than j river. I find Foobar very easy to listen to without much tweakery to get the sound right, reasonably bullet proof, J river I had to fiddle a fair deal to get the latency right, and it wasn't consistent. JRiver managed to hang a few times, but to its credit recovered OK.

At worst the sound dropped out for 0.2s, and varied according to the file played. Possible cause of interaction with the DAC. Juergen's comment is very interesting with J River decoding ALAC, it would justify the audbile difference between the two players.

I uninstalled J river even though I purchased it (shrug). Am running Win7 Pro 64bit, and set the default player as the built in Realtek card and then selected the DAC Wasapi mode in Foobar. The indexing btw of J River is about 5 times slower than Foobar, so set a time to import all the files, and tell J River to import AAC's by default it doesn't.

With a little effort & digging, Foobar doesn't look like a spreadsheet.

JR_Audio · March 1, 2010

The indexing of the tags does't need the time with J.River when importing audio files, compared to Foobar, the “analysing audio” takes this high amount of time. This is doing much more than just analysing the audio level if you want to use the replay gain function. So if you import huge data bases, this can take really very long, that's right.

Foobar and JRiver MC14, both are bit perfect, but they have different ability to play different files formats. For example JR MC14 does play AIFF, absolutely perfect, but Foobar does not. One the other hand, with the ALAC Plug-In Foobar plays ALAC, but JR MC14 does not.

You are right, JR MC14 does not play AAC files natively, but I personally do not care about lossy file formats, even when traveling, I am listening only to lossless files.

I haven't measured the ALAC filter in JR MC14, so at this moment, I am not sure, whether this is Bit True or not. Maybe I will do when I am home again in the next week.

Juergen

hifitubes · March 1, 2010

Were you using WASAPI in MC14? I feel there are some problems with it, and a few threads over there about this, but overall I find Foobar more cumbersome. You have to download plugins to get ASIO and WASAPI? Why be suprised that AAC is not a default file format? They focus on lossless, and mostly Windows platform codecs. DC_Bass filter is available.

Indexing is fastest with J. River, bar none. If you don't use RG, turn off Analyze, or do it later when you are counting sheep.

This is part of the problem with having a low power master PC that is pulling files off a NAS or similar. Where are your files hosted? I'm guessing the network. You probably have download cover art, analyze audio, etc. enabled on import. It helps when dealing with audio to have a something that can crunch numbers; the Master PC hosting the library should have some nuts. Your clients, make those the featherweights. You can tag your files now over LAN/WAN with Library Server, but for intensive file operations, it's nice to deal directly with files with some power when you have to.

I have AB'd MC14, XXhighend, and Foobar. I hear no difference. No dropouts.

lotusaurus · March 2, 2010

I feel that remotely controlling music playback software is a sadly neglected area of most software, including JRMC. It seems that software developers are stuck in the mode of trying to reproduce a TV experience (i.e., using a remote control) just because PCs have monitors. But when I listen to music, I don't want to have a PC monitor near me (to say nothing of the impracticality of having cables running across the floor to some place near my chair). And a 10 foot interface is fine for video, but I don't want to have a big flatscreen in front of me when I just want to listen to music.

So what DO I want? Well, a few years ago it would have been difficult to come up with a realistic affordable alternative, but today I have an iPhone that has a nice in-built iPod application. Why should I not be able to access my PC-based audio using the same interface? In fact, using foobar2000 and the httpcontrol component together with the right skin, you can get something very close to that. You can sit in your chair and select your music using just the iPhone (and wi-fi) and what you see on the iPhone looks almost exactly like the iPod app. In fact, I'm amazed that this little feature isn't more widely publicised. (I do find the skin a little clunky, but at least part of that - perhaps most of that - is because I don't understand foobar well enough.)

I wish software developers like JRMC would think more about how users can control the music playback remotely. What works for video does not, IMO, work for music.

PeterSt · March 2, 2010

From a developers point of view it may be "helpful" for you, that we developers face an even bigger problem at creating it, than you the user wanting it (but which is because you want it :-). Remote control for general purpose on a Windows PC is a sheer undoable task. Ok, in the end I managed, but the bought remotes are countless and even includes a 1200 euro special piece (also worthless).

That nice little Foobar gadget hopefully brings the future, and at least I will go that route. But for your information (and to emphasize the difficulties again) : even that (iPhone/iThouch) control means is hacked from iTunes. Say, "stolen". So, it is nothing like being officially there for a Windows PC, but it is proprietary iTunes. And no, I didn't mean Foobar stole anything, but similar to cracking DVD-A ripping (which two years ago wasn't possible), this was cracked too (reverse engineered).

So, just 2c for a hopefully perspective !

Peter

Audio_ELF · March 2, 2010

Peter - there are actually two different Foobar remotes.

The one using the iPod Touch "Remote" application and a second (older one) that used HTTP which I think was referred to just now. The HTTP remote is not reverse engineered from anything afaik.

Eloise

PeterSt · March 2, 2010

Hi Eloise,

I too have a "HTTP" version (TCP/IP server) but I couldn't get it reliably (or as fast as should) working, and out of all it is not a standard solution. So FYI : many solutions exist, and most rely on the (by now very o(l)d) WinLirc protocol, mostly dedicated to serial ports nobody has anymore. So on that matter, we want USB.

... go try it with a fresh start. -> You'll never know what is not working why, because of too many variables. And to keep in mind : I am talking about "programmable" remotes, which allow for e.g. ticking/unticking a random checkbox in, *my* application. So, there is enough around that supports MCE, Winamp and the like, but this is because it was done the other way around : the remote manufacturer just made that working (and compatible with those apps).

Actually it is crazy, and someone should be sued for it.

Peter

hifitubes · March 2, 2010

Appears Chris touched on all of this (below) above - Chris, have you gotten that 801 Error when trying to browse with PlugPlayer (i.e. just using PP as a remote to control JRMC zones).

JRMC has 3 possible remote solutrions:

XPtunes (free in forum)

RiverMote (iTunes store)

PlugPlayer (iTunes store)

PlugP is DLNA-based and JRMC is working to support this; right now I can't get it to browse.

RiverMote has focus issues; meaning it is increcible on th eiPhone but it breaks things like scrolling on the Master machine when you sit back down with your in-air mouse on the couch etc.

XPTunes allows searching, but it is the most fugly imo.

Last night, daughter and wife at in-laws, I convinced my son to come out bback and look at the stars, start a fire, and listen to music. I turned on my aux amp, started MC via the RiverMote icon, and walked outside. Switched to Outdoor Zone on iPhone, and choose the playlist for Desifinado.

When you have a 3 year old, I have to say this tech makes life easier (when it works ; ), as we all know how much attention span 3.5 year olds have. He even got into rating songs with me and pressing the ratings stars in RiverMote, a feature I really like in case random songs pop up that I have never heard.

I'm hoping that PlugPlayer pans out too; RM is a pretty slick app though, but he is stuck with JRMC not helping him out as a 3rd party developer. There is a thread over there, and the reality is confusing. JRMC has not done an Apple based app in-house; they have serious issues with Apple imo from what I have seen, and it's a shame Melloware took the brunt of their frustration as they did nothing to help a fellow developer out in this situation when all he desired to do was improve his application; boosting both companies sales.

So it goes...

In terms of "hard" remotes, the Gyration in conjunction with Intelliremote is a cost effective solution although J. River sells a remote on their site. I have never played around with the remote settings for IR blasting though.

<img>http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/8761/jrremote.jpg</img>

hifi

The Computer Audiophile · March 2, 2010

"Chris, have you gotten that 801 Error when trying to browse with PlugPlayer (i.e. just using PP as a remote to control JRMC zones)."

Yes I certainly have received that error. It took me a while to figure it out. the problem was I selected the wrong Media Server in the PlugPlayer setup. If your version of Windows is also running a UPnP server (it likely is) it may appear in the list instead of the JRMC Media Server. Selecting the Windows Media Server will give you the 801 error every time. There should be a media server selectable with the JRMC icon not just one with a Windows icon.

I had to change the port JRMC Media Server was operating on, in order to make this work. Windows and JRMC used the same port by default and Windows won the battle.

Also, make sure you have downloaded the absolute newest version of JRMC from the JRMC forum. It really makes a difference.

Russ Reed · March 2, 2010

Chris,

I swithched from MediMonkey to JRMC. Is there enough sonic difference between Vista and 7 to make that change as well? If so, is 7 Home Premium 32 bit all I would need?

Thanks Russ

The Computer Audiophile · March 2, 2010

Hi Russ - That's a real subjective question :~) I suggest staying with Vista for now as long as you already have it. I have Vista and Windows 7 and will never go back to Vista. That's just me.

Any version of Windows 7 will likely suit your needs. If you want remote desktop for control you'll need Professional or Ultimate.

lotusaurus · March 3, 2010

Peter, I don't pretend that I have the expertise to understand all of your comments, but I do believe there are some other factors to be considered.

As Eloise said, the foobar httpcontrol app is not a rip-off of iTunes or any Apple software in any way. It's just an http server for foobar that allows you to access foobar commands via http. The beauty of this approach is that you can skin the server page that is served up when you browse to it. That means that you can optimise it for, for example, an iPhone screen. The iPod lookalike part is just the skin.

There's no need for a physical connection like USB or something that relies on Winlirc (which IIRC is an infra-red protocol). It's just a matter of browsing to the foobar web server via Wi-Fi on your iPhone.

You mentioned the need to to tick boxes, etc. I'd suggest that there is an alternative route that I wish developers would consider. For controlling remotely (I prefer not to say "remote control" because that tends to make everyone assume it's a reference to hardware) on a small handheld device with a small inbuilt screen (like an iPhone), the interface SHOULD be completely different. If we simply wanted to control the PC, we could use something like the VNC or Remote Desktop apps that are available for the iPhone, but that is also clunky because of the small screen size that has to map to the PC screen.

Personally, I think a nice JRMC app for the iPad would be the perfect solution. I might even spring for one of those things if there was such an app.

My apologies for going a little OT wrt this review of the JRMC, but I think this aspect (how we control our music playing PCs remotely) is sadly overlooked. I raise this in the hope that reviewers of PC media playing software like Chris will be a little more demanding in this area.

hifitubes · March 3, 2010

Chris,

Where the heck do we change the port? You mean going into Windows and doing this? JRMC doesn't seem to have this option, and their Wiki doesn't mention it.

thanks,

hifi

hifitubes · March 3, 2010

Okay, so enabling the server did the trick. Didn't have to tweak a port. Choosing Renderer makes the zones show up in PlugPlayer, but it is confusing for a new user that you need to choose Server as well because it seems like it is already running, and I don't want it to server anything; just be controlled by my iPhone. DLNA is incredibly fast with my 122K song library. Color me impressed. Wish I had a way to do ratings though like in RiverMote!

PeterSt · March 3, 2010

While I don't pretend to write as clearly as could be, I think there are some misunderstandings;

First of all, I wasn't referring to any HTTP protocol/interface, but (I'd hope obviously) to the iPhone interface, which is not the HTTP you refer to. It's just another, and that one *is* reverse engineered (hey, by the community -> visit Doom9 and you'll know what I mean).

Is this important ? I guess not.

<cite>There's no need for a physical connection like USB or something that relies on Winlirc (which IIRC is an infra-red protocol).</cite>

Maybe - before we both invest more time in working out what would be best for you the user - it is first time to get into these matters somewhat further. I mean, if you refer to an USB physical connection, you maybe don't get the grasp of what we both are talking about. Hahaha. I mean, how can you ever think I am talking about a wired "remote" connecton, no matter I didn't say what connection it was. So, on the same matter I can now think that your HTTP connection is via an UTP cable or something. Of course not (this will be WiFi generally).

<cite>You mentioned the need to to tick boxes, etc. I'd suggest that</cite>

... if you only were suggesting something !!

So let me try to explain it again, but via another route :

You startup an application of your likings. Take Word, whatever. Now pick a remote to your likings but start simple, before demanding something 100 steps further away from reality. So, get yourself a remote of which you think it can do the job : or more safe, ask a shop which one to have (not that you will get an answer, but it makes clear the problem better). But you know what ? I *tell* you that an MCE remote can do it (it really can). This saves you a month of digging. But now do it ! change that checkbox you picked.

Keep in mind : I am not talking strange things here. You actually should go out to the mall and ask for a remote that can change that checkbox (any checkbox you like). But you won't get an answer because it does not exist right out of the box. And THIS is both your and my problem. It is your prblem because you can't get a remote for my application, and it is my problem because I have no means to create a remote for my application. THERE IS NO STANDARD FOR IT. It wasn't provided.

This all starts with the communication over IR (or RF if you like) via "a" connection to the PC, and this obviously is USB (maybe now you understand my WinLirc story better, because that *is* a standard (created by the community, but it is for a serial port), but it is NOTHING for you the user. Too tedious and vague to setup, and 20 times worse as activating a server like you see coincidentally in the before posts.

The "standard" iTunes uses contains it all, and since this is open now, it should be THE standard.

But now I have to get myself an iPhone because it doesn't work with my Pronto.

Again, I hope it is clear ! (but if not, let's put it to rest)

Peter

PS: In order not to have a disagreement :

<cite>but I think this aspect (how we control our music playing PCs remotely) is sadly overlooked.</cite>

you keep on being 100% correct on this one, and I only wanted you to know that the manufacturers you refer to have a problem themselves. Partly this is because of (what you very correctly said) the way of interaction you need, while no large screen is (should be) available opposed to video, BUT in the mean time you'll need some control including pictures (coverart) <- which is not what you said, and which makes things way way more complicated than the normal MCE remote which already doesn't work out of the box.

Now, the iPhone remote application contains that (before not openly available). My Philips Pronto plus my own TCP/IP server (WiFi !) contains that too. But are you going to buy a EUR 1200 remote ? come on.

One and a half · March 4, 2010

For interest, a bit more detail on my previous post :

For the indexing, I used the same machine to the same library of songs from the same location. The songs are hosted by another PC on the network, so both applications read the same data including cover art, RG (replay gain?) and analyze audio were switched off.

I wasn't surprised that AAC searches are not turned on, it's just that by default action of the software, ACC aren't searched unless you tick the box on import. iTunes does have a vast library of music, and when it comes to availability of songs that are difficult to find, I'd rather put up with lossy formats, than miss out on a vital piece of music altogether.

I do agree with you in that there needs to be a failry strong PC to crunch numbers for importing libraries for the first time, however the limit is not the processor, RAM, its the oldest and weakest link, the spinning hard drive. Throughput of data is the real bottleneck, which is largely overcome by SSD, but at considerable cost if you store libraries on SSD. Playing is no problem for a spinning drive, the data stream is fine have no trouble with it, but getting 200GB+ of data on there in the first place over the network is more than overnight.

Also backing up that data presents its own drama. For mass copying, I use Windows Robocopy (or the GUI RichCopy), then regular backups with Norton Ghost or Acronis, considering GFI backup. This should be in another thread though.

beetlemania · March 4, 2010

Windows-based solutions (eg, Windows 7 + JRMC) and Mac OS solutions (eg, iTunes + Amarra/PV)? Given all the reports of how "crazy s***" makes a difference (adding RAM, SSD, certain USB ports, etc), it seems like someone must have made this comparison . . .

Lizard_King · March 11, 2010

Told you Chris in many Posts why I feel JRMC is a great player for Audiophiles. Now if they can only release a Kernel streaming plug in since I still use my windows xp laptop with the M2tech H-i-Face. ASIO will not work so I am now using MM with Kernel streaming in. I prefer to use JRMC yet they aren't releasing a proper plugin.

JR_Audio · March 11, 2010

Hi Lizard King

ASIO: What is wrong with the M2tech ASIO driver, what isn't working correctely?

KS: You can install ASIO4ALL and have a ASIO to KS wrapper, working for JRMC.

Juergen

Lizard_King · March 11, 2010

Juregen:

ASIO4all is just a warpper and does NOT sound as good as the full ASIO. For some reason, the Hi-Face software will not work with ASIO on either JRMC or MM. However, Kernel Streaming plugin works for MM yet there is no KS plugin for JRMC. I find that the KS plugin with MM gives me the best sounbd period yet I miss some of JRMC functionality.

JR_Audio · March 11, 2010

You are right, ASIO4ALL does sound good, but not perfect.

But why is the ASIO not working for you, any sound or no music at all?

So in JRMC in Autput Mode: ASIO

In Output Settings chose the right device

And disable "use large hardware buffer" (this is my recommentation).

If still now sound, try different channel offsets (I never tried this, but maybe for your soundcard).

Good Luck

Juergen

audiozorro · March 11, 2010

I believe Lizard King has been one of the greatest advocate for JRMC on this website and thus his bias for JRMC is natural and obvious. But I find it curious that JRMC is now on the CASH List and Media Monkey is off, especially given the opinion of some that with Kernel Streaming, Media Monkey has never sounded better, and it seems that sonically Lizard King prefers Media Monkey to JRMC.

JR_Audio · March 11, 2010

Audiozorro

Ok, under Windows XP, without a working ASIO driver from the hardware manufacturer, JRMC can't show his performance, but beginning with Windows Vista and finaly with Windows 7 (both the exclusive WASAPI mode) JRMC 14, with the play from RAM feature enabled, gives sonically an immense boost, you have to try it.

On XP, Kernel Streaming does sound better, true, but sometimes a little bit too picky, when other programs need some CPU load. ASIO is not exactely as good, but more tolerant, when other programs need some CPU load. But both modes are much better than Wave Out or Direct Sound Out.

But you should realy try JRMC 14, with playing RAM enabled, under Windows 7 via exclusive WASAPI!

Juergen

audiozorro · March 11, 2010

I guess I will have to try JRMC someday. The reason that I haven't to date is that I have a bias against mixing audio and video and JRMC seems to be the ultimate media software for audio, video, photos, etc. I may be wrong but I just think that a developer that concentrates on only audio has an advantage than one trying to do it all. Perhaps it's time for me to put my prejudice aside, try it and listen. Even if I feel JRMC isn't better than my preferred audio player, I do have a place for it in my separate home theater setup that may bring the connected computers to new levels.

I only have XP and Vista right now, so which version of Win 7 do you feel is best for JRMC?

JR_Audio · March 11, 2010

Hi Audiozorro

Also for me, I am only interested in the audio features of JRMC, so I deselct all video, pictures, etc. features and select only the 8 main audio format, that I have on my computer.

On XP, JRMC was good and if you had some ASIO drivers for your hardware, I was really good and I used it via ASIO with great success, together with some other programs (MM, Foobar, WinAmp).

But with Vista and with Windows 7, the exclusive WASAPI made a big difference, so from that on, I am using only JRMC14 (and Foobar for reference comparison).

For testing I have also MM, iTunes, Winamp, etc. on my Vista and on my Windows 7 partition, but without exclusive WASAPI, they have no chance.

Exclusive WASAPI has the transparency of the Kernel Steamin of the XP ages, but togehter with the elasticity of the ASIO dirvers.

I have only Windows 7 Premium Home 32, so I can't say anything on the other versions.

Juergen

PS: I do not want to say anything bad concerning other programs, exept my post about measurements, but under Windows 7, JRMC14 flys.

Windows 7 Audio & J River Media Center 14 Configuration

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