Two More Complimentary 24/176.4 HRx Downloads Courtesy of Reference Recordings

<em>"Does use of HDCD technology for these HRx recordings imply that the embedded resolution in these recordings is actually higher than 24bit?"</em><br />

<br />

No, I don't think so. The 'Peak Extend' HDCD process is only available at 16/44.1 resolutions.<br />

<br />

I'm not sure whether any HDCD processes even exist above 16/44.1. For me, when I see the HDCD flag in hirez files it's just very reassuring to know that the files have been mastered using one of the best ADCs ever made. It's proof that the mastering engineer has really good tastes :-)<br />

<br />

Mani.

The Young Person’s Guide to the Orchestra is a symphonic tour-de-force and audio spectacular, featuring all sections of the symphony, separately and together. Based on a famous theme by Henry Purcell, Britten writes in essence his “Concerto for Orchestra,” taking the ensemble apart, then reassembling it in a grand and jubilant finale. Dynamic range is extreme.<br />

______________________________________________________________________<br />

<br />

<a href="http://www.officechairsuk.com/office_chairs.html'>http://www.officechairsuk.com/office_chairs.html"> office chair</a> | <a href="http://www.officechairsuk.com"> office chairs</a>

Hello johnmarsh,<br />

You mention that a lot of your collection in 24/176.4 is down converted from DSD (SACD). I would extremely interested to know how you managed to get DSD out of SACD. I have a few dozens of SACD and would just love to get the DSD files out of these SACDs. I am less interested in converting DSD into 24/176.4 PCM, but rather looking for a way to playback DSD directly, either using a KORG MRx, a Sony VAIO, or burning a DSD Disc and playing with a Sony SCD-XA5400ES, or...<br />

Thanks for any insight.<br />

In my case, I'm using a special board purchased from a small company in Eastern Europe which captures the DSD data streams which are exposed in some DAC chip set's pins, using those pins and the clock data on the chipset to clock in the data to a FPGA which does the conversion to LPCM, including some fairly sophisticated aliasing filters to reduce the ultrasonic noise. Now, while it's intended to just provide output to a conventional high res DAC, with SCM implemented on the S/PDIF output, what I do is capture that on my Mac using Wave Editor in real time, and edit to 24/176.4 AIFF tracks and embed meta data using Max. <br />

<br />

This probably seems like a strange way to go to the average DSD/SACD fan, where for years the "holy grail" has all been about "true DSD DAC's and data and playback", but to me, the problem is that there are relatively few players and DAC chipsets for SACD, and probably only the most expensive available result in sound quality available from some 24/192 DACs on the market place, of which there is far greater selection- take your choice- DAD, Weiss, Metric Halo, Berkeley, etc. My reasoning was that if a mathematically sound conversion is feasible (and 24/176.4 is what the pros prefer going to LPCM from DSD), then it might have significant advantages in storage and playback in a media server system as well as with choice of DACs and the achievable sonic quality at midrange price points (say, $3K to $8K, which doesn't get you anywhere near dCS or a Meitner XDS1 CD/SACD Reference Player/Converter). <br />

<br />

Now, capturing DSD and burning a disk to play on an SCD-XA5400ES sounds like circular reasoning or logic path- If you've got an SACD, you can already play it on the SCD-XA5400ES. Having owned most of Sony's top SACD models, and being able to place them in more perspective these days, I wouldn't buy another one. Even the Marantz SA-7, which may be one of the better "mass market" one piece players short of dCS, doesn't give the value I would hope for. <br />

<br />

But I'm ecumenical, and I fully understand there are many paths to Rome and one's own musical nirvanna. I've chosen this one because of the bang for the buck, flexibility, and the breadth and size of the recordings available, while essentially bypassing what I look at otherwise as the "handicaps" of SACD as it's commercially realized. <br />

<br />

And yes, to my ears, a MH LIO-8 running 24/176/4 from these converted files sounds far better than a Marantz SA-11, which is the same price, but only plays CD's and SACD disks. Very much so on CD, but even more so on the high res stuff. For me, that's a good measure of how good at a fundamental level a so called high resolution player is- if all the details are handled so well that CD sounds VERY good, then the hi res format should live up to it's promise. But the MH will clean the clock of the Marantz when it is just playing back the CD hybrid layer or a CD down conversion made using Wave Editor, compared with the Marantz playing back SACD. <br />

<br />

This sort of exposes the issues; in general, many SACD players will sound better than CD on SACD, but the fundamentals in the player (jitter, digital filters, I/V conversion, analog, power supplies, whatever) are still not up to snuff to be state of the art for CD, and if they can't do that, they obviously can't reach the potential of SACD. <br />

<br />

That's my story and I'm sticking to it! ;^) YMMV, etc, etc. <br />

<br />

As long as you get the music you like played back in a fashion that's satisfactory to YOU in YOUR system, all is good...<br />

<br />

Thank you very much jonmarsh, for this long and elaborated answer. I am guessing that you are most probably using an output board similar to what can be found at www.dvdupgrades.ch. But, as an average DSD/SACD fan, I am wondering why this type of boards could not output the DSD flow directly instead of converting it to PCM before ? May be this would be useless because of the lack of DSD DAC in the market, or because of the lack of computer interface to record the DSD flow on a hard drive ?<br />

I do agree with you that capturing DSD and burning a DSD disc to play on an SCD-XA5400ES is a stupidity, aggravated by the loss of the multichannel tracks. But the perspective to break free from the SACD copy protection scheme is a strong drive.<br />

Anyway I'll continue my quest for the "holy grail" in computer audiophile, leaving aside DSD & SACD for the moment until better solutions come to the market.<br />

I am currently looking for a decent DAC, and all the praise I read in this site on the new Weiss will probably win my decision.<br />

Cheers.<br />

That was an interesting link, the prices are fairly dear. I installed/modified the player myself, using a supplied board, but not from these folks- I wouldn't recommend the DIY route unless one has a home workshop setup to work with SMD, including visual aids (stereo magnifier headsets or microscope). <br />

<br />

Concept is the same. No real market I think for DSD output, as you note, there just aren't DAC's available or software solutions to work. <br />

<br />

I'm sure the Weiss would be a great unit to listen to, and for someone not with pro sound experience or inclinations, easier to setup than an MH. I think the value proposition for MH is much stronger, but only perhaps to a select market. As I do things like speaker design and active crossover, the LIO-8 has tremendous possibilities, especially as the headphone output is also a separate DAC set and encoder based volume control, which could drive a separate room full range output, with the main DACs running a mult-way speaker system and subs. Makes me drool, and wish I had more time to put into this!

Took me hours to read the incredibly long thread on the new Weiss. Realized that it was quite expansive too. I think there is a pro-audio DAC2 version significantly cheaper than the new DAC202. That might be worth considering. I realize I am playing more in the "standard" audiophile league rather than in the DIY camp, however if I had time...<br />

In fact, I am looking for a reasonably priced DAC that can do justice to 24/176.4 and 24/192 material. In the mean time, I am using the mere headphone output of my Lenovo T400 laptop connected to a mundane Rega Mira 3 integrated amplifier by a Qed 3.5mm mini-jack/RCA cable. To my ears the result is already outstanding on some records, for instance Stravinsky-L'histoire Du Soldat from http://www.highdeftapetransfers.com. The problem is that after listening extensively to 24/176.4 and 24/192 music files on such a cheap setup, I definitively have no intention to buy a DAC that could not handle 24/176.4 and 24/192.<br />

So long.

Maybe not to such a high quality as Jonmarsh described, but if you have a SACD player which will output stereo LPCM via HDMI, then <a href="http://www.lektropacks.co.uk/view_product_standard.php?product=1001185&department=126&sub1=&show=">this device</a> (also available branded differently) will allow you to output up to 24/192 via TOSLink into a suitable DAC or recorder.<br />

<br />

Eloise

Could you provide us with a bit more than small company and Eastern European?<br />

Product name and where I could buy it would be good.

Sorry if I don't seem forthcoming, but "technically" this is a DMCA violation, though I only do this for my own and "fair use". <br />

<br />

You have to wire it into the player you chose to modify, unless you send the player to them and pay them to install. This requires being able to work with visual magnification making connections to small SMD components. I've done another player for a friend who was interested and usually does his own DIY, but this is not within his skill envelope. <br />

<br />

http://audiopraise.com/vanity/overview.php<br />

<br />

Audiopraise is located in the Czech republic. They also have a dealer in Italy. Usually they install the board themselves, for a charge of USD $180. <br />

<br />

<br />

<br />

<br />

<br />

JonMarsh clarrified ... <em>"This is DIY, not an external box to hook up with cables"</em><br />

<br />

Thanks for the clarification Jon ... I was actually aware of that and was just posting the "clux" box as a cheaper external solution for those unable / unwilling to modify their SACD player and were happier with a lower end, less elegant, solution.<br />

<br />

Eloise

Hi,<br />

<br />

The comment about DIY was more directed to Chrille, not to your useful post about the HDMI solution. <br />

<br />

I wish there was an easier more straight forward solution to this; most of my friends, when I describe what I'm doing either think I'm bat-sh*t crazy, or pulling their leg. ;^)<br />

<br />

In many cases the improvement may be mostly from the better mastering effort, but whether it's classical or classic rock, it's not a trifle- even on things like James Taylor Hourglass, Janis Joplin Big Brother and the Holding Company, or Elton John Tumble Weed Connection. Then there's stuff like the Living Stereo recordings in three channel from the 50's, to say nothing of modern classical works, like Water Lily Acoustics Nature's Realm.

<i><br />

"In many cases the improvement may be mostly from the better mastering effort, but whether it's classical or classic rock, it's not a trifle- even on things like James Taylor Hourglass, Janis Joplin Big Brother and the Holding Company, or Elton John Tumble Weed Connection. Then there's stuff like the Living Stereo recordings in three channel from the 50's, to say nothing of modern classical works, like Water Lily Acoustics Nature's Realm."<br />

</i><br />

<br />

Now if they'd only start mastering classic rock and pop at 176,192, more people will actually start buying hi res. I don't want to buy anymore classical and aboriginal music demo discs. I did it with CDs is the 80's and again in the 90's.

I am possibly going to spend some time in Prague this autumn, and if this thing means I can convert and play 24/176.4 or similar quality PCM files from SACDs on my Macbook, I will go that way too.<br />

I have couple of hundred SACDs that I can only listen too at home,but would like to be able to listen to also when travelling, without having to compromise and listen to the downsampled RBCD layers which sound anaemic and dull and unmusical compared to the DSD layer. <br />

I should also mention that when I say I capture this on my Mac, that means I use the quad rate S/PDIF capable input on my RME Fireface 800, which is connected by Firewire of course to my Mac Pro. So far, the RME Fireface units (400 and 800) are the only units I know that will work at 24/176.4 on S/PDIF input. <br />

<br />

I've just gotten the new TC Konnekt Impact Twin, and will be determining this weekend if it can be used for capture; their data sheet claims S/PDIF support to 24/192, so I have my fingers crossed, as that would drop the interface price required to $399 USD.

Hi guys,<br />

hi John ... ;-) <br />

<br />

I just want to let you know that I've encountered some problems when using the Vanity board (I had mine installed by Audiopriase).<br />

<br />

The output of the Vanity board is transformer (de-)coupled, and - so it seems to me at least - this gives some probs with the one or other audio-interface.<br />

<br />

I've tested:<br />

EMU 0404USB - doesn't work<br />

ESI Juli@ - does work<br />

Marian Marc 2- doesn't work<br />

RME Digi 96/8 PAD - doesn't work<br />

RME HDSP 9632 - does work<br />

<br />

this isn't related to the sampling rate - i.e. it failes even with CD at 44,1khz/16Bit <br />

<br />

According to Pavel from Audiopraise, this might be because of some mismach (level and/or impedance) between the card and the non-working interfaces.<br />

<br />

So be aware of that, and try to get a tested audiohardware.<br />

<br />

Besides from that, it really is a good investion on getting HiResolution content on your "server" for computer playback.<br />

<br />

Cheers<br />

Harald

And keep us posted at your findings regarding the TC Konnekt.<br />

I won't be going to Prague until October anyway.<br />

But I just came to think of another possible solution that has been mentioned here before.<br />

Maybe the upcoming Korg MR2 portable DSD recorder would do the same?

I have had no issues with the RME Fireface interfaces- this impact Twin is the first unit I'm testing that's more budget oriented. <br />

<br />

Also, the AudiiPraise board has worked fine into every DAC I've tried it with. Keep in mind it DOES implement SCM, Serial Copy Management bits, and some consumer inputs will not pass a signal carrying them.<br />

<br />

A few friends are interested in trying this, but it hinges on a less expensive Firewire recording interface.<br />

<br />

Me, I'm happy. Last night I was getting goose bumps from the Tommy SACD. Townshend had found the original stereo mix down, which had been thought to be lost for decades, when this was made- that's what they used for the SACD stereo mix, while Townshend prepared a new multichannel mix using the 8 track master. You have to hear the vocals as recorded on this version- as clear as so called audiophile recordings. The CD's have all been made from copies of a copy of this tape.

Hi John!<br />

<br />

>> Also, the AudiiPraise board has worked fine into every DAC I've tried it with. Keep in mind it DOES implement SCM, Serial Copy Management bits, and some consumer inputs will not pass a signal carrying them. <<<br />

<br />

Yes. But the interfaces that I had to check for compatibilty are Pro-Audio interfaces which aren't supposed to be anxious about SCMS ;-)<br />

A DENON Receiver (Home-cinema related, but don't know the type) has worked also without probs.<br />

<br />

>> A few friends are interested in trying this, but it hinges on a less expensive Firewire recording interface. <<<br />

<br />

If they aren't nailed to firewire, and could use a PCI(-Express) card insted, I would strongly recommend using the RME brand, or - if on a budget - the ESI Juli@.<br />

<br />

The RMEs come with dedicated "measurement" software (as you might know - DigiCheck), which is worth the investment alone IMHO.<br />

<br />

Cheers - from Infineon-Land :-)<br />

Harald<br />

The reason we've mostly been looking at Firewire is portability across computers, and with notebooks and Mac Mini's and the like. With my Mac Pro, I have more options, but then I also use the mic preamps and some other functions for other things- speaker measurements and driver testing, for example. <br />

<br />

The RME cards doing 24/192 aren't exactly "budget" models, either. ;^) But their drivers and overall implementation seem to be very solid. But since I'm only moving data around with this setup, not for playback, there is room for more flexibility- it has been hard to find an under $500 solution that does 24/176.4, though the AudioPraise can be set for 88.2. <br />

<br />

What part of Deutscheland do you live in? It's funny, Steve Devino, from whom I bought the LIO-8, also does business with Infineon, has been to both the old Bahlanstrasse facility in Munchen and to the Campeon- I only get there about once a year, but always look forward to it. <br />

<br />

~Jon<br />

<br />

The Weiss is very good, but if you're looking for a somewhat cheaper solution that's apparently very close performance wise, I would suggest that you look into Antelope Audio's Zodiac studio-grade DAC. It has a very sophisticated oven-controlled (temperature stabilized) clock and is very jitter-free. At $1500 list it is bargain compared to the Weiss. Haven't heard one myself, but I've recently read about a shoot-out between a bunch a DACs including the Weiss 202 and the $14000 MSB Platinum DAC IV. The author said that all agreed that it was a "near thing" between the three of them.

No joy with the impact Twin. It's either a situation like Harald describes where there is some issue regarding level or impedance or what not, OR it's an SCM issue. Even with the latest flash update for the firmware and latest drivers, though it can be set to 176.4 for the SPDIF input sampling rate, the input won't lock as a clock reference for the sample rate- it just goes into "coast" mode.<br />

<br />

Otherwise, the Impact Twin seems to work fine, though with the usual caveat that the DSP resources won't provide the mixer functionality in DAW at quad sample rates (176 and 192). For the Fireface 800, the functionality is just cut back significantly- fewer channels channels and operations. <br />

<br />

We're considering other options, too, such as an S/PDIF to AES/EBU converter at high sample rate, to use with LIO-8, for example. Still, the interface could be an issue.

Hi Jon!<br />

<br />

I don't think that SCMS should be an issue with these interfaces (as pointed on above), and I also don't think that there even is a SCMS signal in the I²S stream to the DAC-chips, and that is what the Vanity board picks up for it's DSD to PCM conversion.<br />

<br />

Another issue might be, that there are to much/high timig (clock) fluctuations in the output of the vanity board, and therfore some interfaces couldn't lock on the signal.<br />

<br />

Who knows? ... ;-)<br />

<br />

Maybe the new RME "Babyface" would do it?<br />

<br />

Cheers<br />

Harald<br />

<br />

PS:<br />

As to your question, where I'm from ....:<br />

Northern Bavaria

Is generated in the board on the S/PDIF output; this is disclosed on the AudioPraise site, and Pavel has confirmed it to me; we had some discussions by email. <br />

<br />

Some boards I know wont' work for this reason alone, and have confirmed it personally, like the M-Audio Audiophile 24/192, which I have. That's partly why I selected the RME Fireface, as I knew from published materials that it ignores the SCM bit. <br />

<br />

Putting the vanity on the scope, the voltage levels and behavior looks quite normal for a transformer coupled S/PDIF; I don't see any obvious reason why a receiver wouldn't lock on it. <br />

<br />

That RME Babyface is certainly cute, it's a shame it uses only optical S/PDIF, though the specs claim up to 192 kHz- this again would require a converter, then, which at 192 kHz capability (for our required 24/176.4) is difficult (near impossible!) to find. (Only one I know of so far is RDL HR-UDC1, a universal format converter, including optical and coax inputs, AES3ID inputs, and AES/EBU) We could also use AES/EBU inputs on his system with an S/PDIF to AES/EBU converter, these are available, are about $450-600 USD. <br />

<br />

But these combinations total up about what a Fireface 400 can be found for online with careful shopping, and that we KNOW works....

Chris, may I ask a dumb question? I use a Mac and was able to download and play the two RR tracks with Control-click. Have tried several times but could not save them in iTunes. Clicking "File", "Edit", "Option" or iTunes does not provide the "save" option you mentioned and in fact have also tried all the available keys I can think of. With the previous downloading format, I was able to save the tracks. Grateful for your guidance on this.