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  • Gilbert Klein
    Gilbert Klein

    The Music In Me: Rap of History Backwards The

    A Warning:

    The last two songs in this article might offend some people, so keep that in mind if you’re playing it in a public space— Gilbert.

     

    An Introduction:

    Look, I know I know too little about this subject to say I’m an expert, so I’m not. I’m not going to opine on the form or its practitioners, proponents, prophets or phans. (Sorry, I just had to do that. You get it, with the phat thing, right?) I know there must be rap artists who are soulful more than angry, and I know some people are making beautiful music that’s called rap or hip-hop, and I’m sorry but I must conflate the two. I don’t know about it or the scene, and I don’t have to, because I only want to tell you about the first rap song that I heard, and do a little history. I like a little history. I’ll bet there isn’t a rock fan out there who doesn’t know who Chuck Berry is and his music, but I’d bet there aren’t many rap fans who know who Gil Scott-Heron is. But first, the history, and I’ll ask you to keep in mind that in the entertainment industry, innovation is quickly replicated and exploited.

     

    The History:

    Oh, I am so not the right guy to expound on the history of rap. But I heard a few lines from a song I hadn’t heard in years, see, and it made me think about it. And I have this column, see? I’m telling you now I’m no expert. I’m just a guy. Okay, a guy with a column. Like a lot of old people, I don’t get rap music. I didn’t get it when it started and I’m probably too old now; I ignore it now because when it first broke big, I just didn’t like it. There was too much violence, too many gats, glocks and putting a cap in someone’s ass. It all seemed to be swagger about n--gers, bitches, blunts and bling. I understood anti-social sentiment, honest- I’ve enjoyed a bit of it myself in my youth, but where was the music? Suddenly everyone was clever for stealing using bits from other people’s music. That didn’t used to be cool in the 60’s, man. I appreciated the innovation, but I just didn’t find the music in there. Okay, if melody was going to be subverted by cleverness, I gave it a listen, but what I was hearing just seemed… angry. I understood the anger coming out of urban, less privileged areas like Brooklyn, the Bronx and lower Manhattan. I got that. I got why it was coming from places like Compton. But I missed melody, you know?

     

    So rap sells a lot of music and is one of our most popular music forms. But nothing comes from out of a vacuum, so where did it come from? First, let’s look at the word “rap.” Yeah, it’s a bad thing if it refers to a criminal charge, but that wasn’t what it meant when we used it back in the mid-Sixties. It came from “rapport” and it usually meant that you were under the influence of the demon drug, marijuana. It just meant someone went on a talking jag. Logorrhea, as it were. Could have been about someone on meth, but it came out of the pot community. People got stoned and went off on verbal tangents, sometimes seemingly endlessly. It was kind of a joke, you know, when a guy looked around him and realized he’d been talking nonstop and had no idea what he’d been talking about. That was rapping. Or, you could be with someone else, or even a group, and having an earnest discussion. Pot wasn’t necessarily a component in this instance. That was rapping, too. I used to cringe when they called it a “rap session,” but that’s what we called them back then where I was, and I was in a lot of places. It was just silly talk or a serious discussion; either way, we rapped. And now it means something else, but that’s where it came from, and this is about how it got to here, so we’re going backwards.

     

    Let’s start with all the rap music that’s out in the world right now, and go back from there. Let’s include Kurtis Blow, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, and Biggie and Tupac, and N.W.A. and Ice-T and Snoop Dogg and Eminem and Nicki Minaj and Kesha and everyone you know in that field, and there’s a lot of them. Let’s call all of them current artists, and yes, I know who’s dead. Let’s say that these are the folks you know, and for those of you that know more than I do about the recent history of rap, please excuse my glossing over most of the details to get to the first of it. Let’s go backwards to January, 1981. You’ll like this.

     

    The first mainstream rap hit song was “Rapture,” by Blondie. Rap song? Blondie? The New Wave hit machine? Well, it had a rap, no doubt, and up ‘til then, rap had always been tough black guys, mostly gangsta, you feel me? Well, Debbie Harry was as opposite all that as you could devise, but it was rap—okay, maybe rap-ish—but Blondie was a powerhouse group and the song did have rap. It was also the beginning of the Age of Video, and MTV played the bejeesus out of the song. It was November, 1980 when that song came out and became the first major pop hit with rap in it. It was dipping your toes in rap, but it was huge. What preceded it?

     

    Well, that would be “Rapper’s Delight,” by The Sugar Hill Gang, which came out in September, 1979, and went to #36 on the Billboard Hot 100, #4 on the Soul chart, #1 in Canada and Europe. It’s thought of as the first song to introduce rap (or hip-hop) to U.S. audiences, was a great big hit, and you know about sampling, right? This would be when sampling came into prominence, and from that development two phenomena emerged: today’s rap music, and a whole boatload of very wealthy lawyers. And you know who they sampled for this big hit?

     

    Well, that would be “Good Times,” by Chic, which came out in June of 1979, and went on to be sampled too many times to even estimate at this point (note: check out Who Sampled for a list of the 180 times this track has been sampled and many other delights - CC). But “Rapper’s Delight” was the first to almost go mainstream, and when it hit, Debbie brought legendary singer/songwriter/producer/ recent Rock ‘n’ Roll Hall of Fame inductee Nile Rodgers of Chic, to a club where he heard his beats and bass lines being used in some other guys’ song. He asked the DJ what record it was, the DJ told him he just bought it that day in Harlem, and it was an early version of “Rapper’s Delight,” whereupon they sued over the use of their record, and he and his bass player are now listed as co-writers. So, was “Rapper’s Delight” with all the “Good Times’” samples the first rap record to get serious airplay? No, that would be “King Tim III (Personality Jock),” by The Fatback Band, in March of 1979. And think about that title for an indication of how rare this was. It was happening fast, wasn’t it? Where’d this come from?  

     

    The funk dance outfit The Fatback Band was looking for something new, something energetic to put out. Knowing about the parties (remember- we’re going backwards here), they hired Tim Washington, an almost unknown MC who used to throw out raps at parties, and they recorded the song. They were a funk band, but they’d wanted something innovative, something to drive the song, so they went to a rapper because that was still all but unknown on any music charts, but there were dance parties in the Bronx and now elsewhere that were increasing in popularity, and rap was still exciting and daring. They thought the dance parties were not their dance crowd, so they put it out as the B-side. They thought those parties out there were for someone else,  but the song took off like a shot in clubs and parties, and they re-released it as the A-side. I’m guessing the folks over at Sugar Hill Records thought they were on to something as they prepared to release “Rapper’s Delight,” shortly thereafter, and they were right. So now we’re back in March of 1979, when “King Tim” came out. So where’d he come from? Glad I asked.

     

    What had been going on until “King Tim” was parties with MCs, starting in 1973, when Coke La Rock and DJ Kool Herc teamed up for a dance party in the Bronx to celebrate his sister’s birthday. La Rock improvised lines over the beats, mostly calling out to friends in the crowd and making up short stories to the beat, puffing up him and his friends. He did their first few parties from behind the speakers so no one knew who was rapping. For the sixth party, he started calling himself La Rock, and stepped out in front and got bolder, incorporating more poetry into his lines. His antics were getting closer to rap, but it was closer to a combination of performance art and showing off. The idea caught on and other parties started featuring MCs, and I’m using the term in a general way or we’ll be here all day.

     

    Their success made these two players influential as the other MCs started showing up at dance parties. Violence was always a part of the raps because they reflected the reality of life in the ghetto, but the lore must have included the night when DJ Kool Herc was stabbed at a party, and when La Rock went looking to settle the score, he found that friends of the perpetrator had sent the guy out of town. La Rock mostly retired from rapping after that, but his influence lived on with the current and then the next generation of rappers. Later rappers eschewed La Rock’s improvisations, writing out the lyrics out and rehearsing their rhymes with a crew, which allowed them to become more complex. These parties continued outside the notice of mainstream record labels and the songs appeared mostly on tape until The Fatback Band, and we’ve been there and done that, so what the hell could possibly have preceded Coke La Rock in 1973? I’ve got two names for you: Gil Scott-Heron and The Last Poets.

     

    Summer, 1971.  The “Sixties” are over, but racial tensions continue to erupt.

     

    Gi-Scott-HeronAnd this is where I came in. In the old days, the pre-Sixties, we only had AM radios and all we listened to was Top 40. When all that changed with the Underground Radio revolution, we all listened to our FM stations, and that was where this essay starts. The snippet of the song I heard that started me on this quest was in the opening music for the just-ended season of “Homeland,” on Showtime. I heard a phrase that I’d heard the first time in the song “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised,” by Gil Scott-Heron. It would only ever be played on FM in the summer of 1971; it was too hot for AM, and I don’t mean “hot” in the good way. Over the years, the phrase popped up now and then, and I know there isn’t an ex-hipster out there who forgot it, and when I heard it on that show, I wanted to know more about it.

     

    It was played on FM because it was daring, it was about “the revolution” that had evolved into the middle class when the hippies got married and had children; some were left some behind. AM wouldn’t touch it, and it didn’t ignite any flames that I know of, but I heard it, and so did those of us still listening. I wasn’t alarmed, but I did think that this was something new. Not just the message, but the medium. That was new, and I paid attention. It was in 1971, and it didn’t ignite any flames, but it was something different, and that’s what I heard. Different. It was jazzy and pop-ish, but it had a message, maybe a warning. In the early Sixties, Dylan wrote: “Yes, it is I who is knockin’ at your door if it is you inside who hears the noise,” and we heard him knocking when he sang,

     

    Oh the foes will rise with the sleep still in their eyes

    And they’ll jerk from their beds and think they’re dreamin’

    And they’ll pinch themselves and squeal and know that it’s for real

    The hour when the ship comes in

     

    The message was received, the Sixties had come and gone, and there’d been some changes made. But not enough for a lot of the black community, who were still restless, waiting for all the freedoms that were promised so recently. Black Olympians had raised their fists in the Black Power salute, James Brown said “I’m black and I’m proud,” but where were the changes? The influence of the Black Panthers had come and gone by 1971, when Gil Scott-Heron released “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.” He was speaking for a group that was virtually unheard in pop culture, and we heard the warning. We’d heard it from Dylan, and he’d been chillingly right…

     

    I remember comparing the two in 1971. When I heard it recently, I asked myself if this wasn’t the origin of rap. It was certainly so in my mind, and then I saw that confirmed in my research, but I also found one more step backwards in the history of rap, and that would be to The Last Poets, a group founded in the wake of the late 1960’s Civil Rights Movement, and its Black Nationalist’s offshoot. Angry revolutionaries, they made no effort to couch their message in radio-ready language, and so it was months before Scott-Heron put out “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised” that they released The Last Poets, which, out of concern for my host’s inbox I will call: this song and the other song, neither of which you may play in sensitive situations.

     

    I never heard this group back then, and I can guess why. Maybe it was because of the language? I don’t know, maybe Station Managers or Program Directors or owners felt that playing Gil Scott-Heron was daring, but playing The Last Poets was a bridge too far. Even hippie stations had to sell ads and keep their licenses. Don’t know, don’t care; this is about the first rap music and I think this is it. Maybe you never heard of The Last Poets, either, but they were not unheard, and if you listen, you can hear their echoes today. Them and Gil Scott-Heron.

     

    Were they angry? Definitely. Got a point? You decide. What I decided was that this was as far back as I can trace rap. Yes, there may be evidence of rap as far back as the early 18th Century in Congo Square, but 1970 is as far as I go.

     

    Now rap is everywhere and has fragmented into styles and methods, as it should. It’s in clubs, on TV, on the web and stuck in people’s ears; if there are still boom boxes, then it’s there, too. It’s on the guy’s radio next to you at a red light, and at or near every 7-11 in at least in Southern California, and it’s in movies and TV soundtracks, and it’s in the news, and its biggest stars are the biggest stars, and it’s come a long way from The Last Poets and Gil Scott-Heron and Coke La Rock and The Fatback Band.

     

    You may now go back to the present day. And good day to you.  

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    GilbertgGilbert Klein has enough degrees and not enough stories. He’s been a radio talk show host, a nightclub owner, event producer, and has written two books: FAT CHANCE about the legendary KFAT radio, and FOOTBALL 101. He threatens to write one more. He spent 25 years in New York, 25 years in San Francisco, and is now purportedly retired in Baja.




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    48 minutes ago, DRB100 said:

    I saw a country band with a violinist play at a local State Fair many years ago and they were from, I believe, Nashville, and damned if the violinist didn't throw in some Mahavishnu licks in a freaking country song.

     

    There's "Open Country Joy" on "Birds of Fire," which I always loved, but these days I suppose we'd think of the quiet parts of that song more as Americana than country.  Yeah, I can definitely see a violinist getting into Jerry Goodman and picking up some Mahavishnu along the way.

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    42 minutes ago, firedog said:

     

     

    Ironic you bring that up. Because as a Germanic language heavily influenced by Hebrew, it was considered exactly that way by many Germans before WWII. Just hearing it spoken was often enough to result in an anti-Semitic reaction to the speaker, including violence. Besides being racists, the Germans who reacted this way were also ignorant of the fact that part of the reason Yiddish sounded "incorrect" to them was that both the grammar and pronunciation were derivative of German from the Middle Ages, with aspects that had been preserved in Yiddish but not in "standard" German. 

     

    Sounds sort of like some of the criticism we hear of American Black English and other variations on standard English, doesn't it?

     

    And don't get me wrong - I'm all in favor of people knowing standard English. But it has it's place, and just because someone speaks or uses non-standard English in a non-formal setting, it doesn't prove they are ignorant or in any way intellectually inferior. 

     

    Yes, and I'm very conscious of the history of course.  But I did not want to leave the impression I was thinking of any of the anti-Ebonics feeling expressed here as racist.  Often folks are just bothered by the feeling of being very intentionally left out of other folks' conversations (ironic in itself since these patois languages of ghettoized or colonized people develop in circumstances where they are very intentionally left out of things).

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    2 minutes ago, firedog said:

    First fusion jazz-rock? Probably John Handy and his band.  I think they were performing it live already in 65, but certainly in 66. 

    He also did the record "Karuna Supeme" with Ali Abhar Khan in 75, probably the best Western-Indian music fusion record ever done.

     

     

    Ironic you bring that up. Because as a Germanic language heavily influenced by Hebrew, it was considered exactly that way by many Germans before WWII. Just hearing it spoken was often enough to result in an anti-Semitic reaction to the speaker, including violence. Besides being racists, the Germans who reacted this way were also ignorant of the fact that part of the reason Yiddish sounded "incorrect" to them was that both the grammar and pronunciation were derivative of German from the Middle Ages, with aspects that had been preserved in Yiddish but not in "standard" German. 

     

    Sounds sort of like some of the criticism we hear of American Black English and other variations on standard English, doesn't it?

     

    And don't get me wrong - I'm all in favor of people knowing standard English. But it has it's place, and just because someone speaks or uses non-standard English in a non-formal setting, it doesn't prove they are ignorant or in any way intellectually inferior. 

    But was there any "rock" influence? I think it could be an early example of Indian jazz.  That might be true. but I never thought of John Handy as rock in any way shape or form.  


    I'll check out some of the his earlier work when I have some free time. I went to jr. high and high school with John Handy Jr his son.  He was a crack up.  I haven't seen him since he graduated High School.

     

     

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    2 minutes ago, DRB100 said:

    I never thought of John Handy as rock in any way shape or form

     

    He made the rock/R&B charts with "Hard Work" in 1976.

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    44 minutes ago, Jud said:

     

    There's "Open Country Joy" on "Birds of Fire," which I always loved, but these days I suppose we'd think of the quiet parts of that song more as Americana than country.  Yeah, I can definitely see a violinist getting into Jerry Goodman and picking up some Mahavishnu along the way.

    I was always trying to figure out what that song had during the beginning section and where it came from.   Americana wasn't really a name I had heard until much recently.

     

    Go listen to the live versions that are on concertvault.com They have over 50 concerts available and they do things with their catalog on some nights that are just insane. Too bad they didn't have all of their concerts along with the later revisions of the band.  

     

    Yeah, even the Dregs were kind of a Mahavishnu cover band before they went original.  remember them?  That's another great fusion band that came a little towards the tail end.  Jerry has been playing with them, which is cool.

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    21 minutes ago, Jud said:

     

    He made the rock/R&B charts with "Hard Work" in 1976.

    But that wasn't a "rock song" as it was a R&B song.  

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    49 minutes ago, Jud said:

     

    Yes, and I'm very conscious of the history of course.  But I did not want to leave the impression I was thinking of any of the anti-Ebonics feeling expressed here as racist.  Often folks are just bothered by the feeling of being very intentionally left out of other folks' conversations (ironic in itself since these patois languages of ghettoized or colonized people develop in circumstances where they are very intentionally left out of things).

    It would be wrong to think of someone that's Anti-Ebonics as a racist when the words commonly used in Ebonics are racist words and we don't want them using them.  See how that works?  

    Look at Dr. Dre. he was part of the band NWA.  N With an Attitude.  Right off the bat, he and the others in that group are telling the world, THEY ARE N's.  Clear as day. Their lyrics have that word commonly used throughout their lyrics and it's their normal word they use to refer to each other. So how exactly would someone like me be racist when THEY are the ones perpetrating a racist word onto themselves? I just would like them to stop using that language, stop rapping and then learn the English language and instead of rapping a bunch of silly stuff, learn how to sing, learn how to play a musical instrument and figure out how to remove the negativity surrounding rap and become people that can play music with some actual musical talent.  Otherwise, it's never going to stop and it's going to be a bigger problem.

     

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    35 minutes ago, DRB100 said:

    But that wasn't a "rock song" as it was a R&B song.  

     

    In the words of Candidate Reagan, "There you go again!" :)  Categorizing something as exclusively one thing (R&B) versus another (popular or rock music), I mean.  The Pittsburgh and Philly radio stations I heard it on that year weren't "R&B" stations, they were "rock" stations.  Basically people just liked the music.  If you wanted to live in the world of categories, you could call it a "crossover" hit.

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    24 minutes ago, DRB100 said:

    It would be wrong to think of someone that's Anti-Ebonics as a racist when the words commonly used in Ebonics are racist words and we don't want them using them.  See how that works?  

    Look at Dr. Dre. he was part of the band NWA.  N With an Attitude.  Right off the bat, he and the others in that group are telling the world, THEY ARE N's.  Clear as day. Their lyrics have that word commonly used throughout their lyrics and it's their normal word they use to refer to each other. So how exactly would someone like me be racist when THEY are the ones perpetrating a racist word onto themselves? I just would like them to stop using that language, stop rapping and then learn the English language and instead of rapping a bunch of silly stuff, learn how to sing, learn how to play a musical instrument and figure out how to remove the negativity surrounding rap and become people that can play music with some actual musical talent.  Otherwise, it's never going to stop and it's going to be a bigger problem.

     

     

    As anyone who grew up Jewish like me can tell you (and as it's easy enough to understand even if you didn't), using those sorts of terms "in the group" is a whole different ballgame in terms of intent and effect from some outsider using them.  Same as "White men can't dance" is funny and a little defiant when used by the minority, but "Black people sure can dance!" isn't when used by the majority.

     

    Edit: Like in "Annie Hall" when Woody Allen was preparing to convert to Christianity and brought home a little shopping bag with Hellman's mayonnaise and Wonder Bread, and all the Jews in the audience are cracking up and the Christians are looking around going "What?  What's funny?" :)

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    7 minutes ago, Jud said:

     

    As anyone who grew up Jewish like me can tell you (and as it's easy enough to understand even if you didn't), using those sorts of terms "in the group" is a whole different ballgame in terms of intent and effect from some outsider using them.  Same as "White men can't dance" is funny and a little defiant when used by the minority, but "Black people sure can dance!" isn't when used by the majority.

     

    If blacks want to call each other n_ _ _ ers in the privacy of their own homes, who cares? But, putting it out all over the media and the airwaves ad nauseum as a badge of honor, and then going apoplectic if one non-black utters the word is hypocritical and counter-productive. What is a parent supposed to teach their kids about this issue?

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    6 minutes ago, wwaldmanfan said:

     

    If blacks want to call each other n_ _ _ ers in the privacy of their own homes, who cares? But, putting it out all over the media and the airwaves ad nauseum as a badge of honor, and then going apoplectic if one non-black utters the word is hypocritical and counter-productive. What is a parent supposed to teach their kids about this issue?

     

    Wait, you mean non-blacks are listening to this stuff? :)

     

    Re parents:  When I was 5, other kids at school taught me "Eenie, meenie, minie, moe."  But instead of "Catch a tiger by the toe," it was "Catch a n___er by the toe."  Of course I had no idea what the word meant.  My mom heard me repeating this at home, and she very calmly told me that word was a bad word and I should never say it again.  That's the one and only time she ever said anything to me about bad language, so it's stuck in my memory all this time.  So I never have said it again.  What other folks want to say is up to them.

     

    I think it's not very complicated to explain there are words some people can say to each other but you shouldn't say to them, and not even very complicated to talk a little about why, if you want to do that.

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    7 hours ago, DRB100 said:

    and they weren't doing it to put out an album to sell it and call it music, now did they?   But I'm sure they weren't using Ebonics, that's for sure.  They probably spoke the same language, right?  Well, if rappers want to sit in a room insulting each other using Ebonics, be my guest, and do it when I'm not around to hear it.. 

     

    But to put it out on an album and to try to pass it off as music to make money?  NOPE.   They didn't do that.   Good try.  I'll give you an A for effort but an F for failure to understand the difference.


    See how your attempt has failed?  Try again. maybe your second attempt with be better, but please THINK things through.  OK?

     

    My response had no awareness nor instructive intent where the virtual persona "you" is involved.  

     

    This is now reaching to pages of effluent dialogue overwhelming any attempt at interruption by erstwhile less embattled members.  Great job you two!

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    14 minutes ago, Jud said:

     

    Wait, you mean non-blacks are listening to this stuff? :)

     

    Re parents:  When I was 5, other kids at school taught me "Eenie, meenie, minie, moe."  But instead of "Catch a tiger by the toe," it was "Catch a n___er by the toe."  Of course I had no idea what the word meant.  My mom heard me repeating this at home, and she very calmly told me that word was a bad word and I should never say it again.  That's the one and only time she ever said anything to me about bad language, so it's stuck in my memory all this time.  So I never have said it again.  What other folks want to say is up to them.

     

    I think it's not very complicated to explain there are words some people can say to each other but you shouldn't say to them, and not even very complicated to talk a little about why, if you want to do that.

     

    It's more complicated now. When we were children, blacks did not refer to each other that way, at least not in public. Everyone else that used that term were genuine racists.

    Today, a confusing double-standard exists. It is so pervasive in popular culture that kids hear it everywhere, especially in music and films. I'd hate to be a white kid who "accidently" says that word within earshot of blacks.

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    3 minutes ago, wwaldmanfan said:

     

    It's more complicated now. When we were children, blacks did not refer to each other that way, at least not in public. Everyone else that used that term were genuine racists.

    Today, a confusing double-standard exists. It is so pervasive in popular culture that kids hear it everywhere, especially in music and films. I'd hate to be a white kid who "accidently" says that word within earshot of blacks.

     

    OK, call me a cock-eyed optimist, but I think this can be made really clear without a lot of trouble.

     

    A little story from my dad:  He and my mom were traveling by boat from Miami to their honeymoon in Cuba (yep, that long ago).  He hadn't been away from Bethlehem, PA much in his life except to serve in the Army Air Corps in WWII, and being on a military base isn't really like living out among the population of a foreign country.  Also, their families had very little money, and he'd really splurged on this trip.  So there he was among the high rollers and probably showing that he felt out of place, when the boat captain walked up to him and said "Was macht a yid?"  (Non-literal translation from the Yiddish: "Are you a Jew?")  Made him feel completely comfortable and right at home, and he remembered it fondly the rest of his life.

     

    Now imagine me, hypothetically, walking around in Germany with my wife (we've been there, but neither the following or anything like it happened), and some skinhead says to me, "Bist du Jude?"  Exactly the same question in a closely related language.  But if that happened, I would not feel comfortable or right at home, and I might remember it the rest of my life, but not fondly.  And you know exactly why my reaction would be completely opposite to what my father felt.

     

    Now is it really that hard to explain why the same language used by or toward different people has completely different implications and results?

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    3 hours ago, DRB100 said:

    But was there any "rock" influence? I think it could be an early example of Indian jazz.  That might be true. but I never thought of John Handy as rock in any way shape or form.  


    I'll check out some of the his earlier work when I have some free time. I went to jr. high and high school with John Handy Jr his son.  He was a crack up.  I haven't seen him since he graduated High School.

     

     

    Edited the post to take that out, as I realized my recollection was confused.

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    37 minutes ago, Jud said:

     

    OK, call me a cock-eyed optimist, but I think this can be made really clear without a lot of trouble.

     

    A little story from my dad:  He and my mom were traveling by boat from Miami to their honeymoon in Cuba (yep, that long ago).  He hadn't been away from Bethlehem, PA much in his life except to serve in the Army Air Corps in WWII, and being on a military base isn't really like living out among the population of a foreign country.  Also, their families had very little money, and he'd really splurged on this trip.  So there he was among the high rollers and probably showing that he felt out of place, when the boat captain walked up to him and said "Was macht a yid?"  (Non-literal translation from the Yiddish: "Are you a Jew?")  Made him feel completely comfortable and right at home, and he remembered it fondly the rest of his life.

     

    Now imagine me, hypothetically, walking around in Germany with my wife (we've been there, but neither the following or anything like it happened), and some skinhead says to me, "Bist du Jude?"  Exactly the same question in a closely related language.  But if that happened, I would not feel comfortable or right at home, and I might remember it the rest of my life, but not fondly.  And you know exactly why my reaction would be completely opposite to what my father felt.

     

    Now is it really that hard to explain why the same language used by or toward different people has completely different implications and results?

     

     

    I'm tapping out.  I have no more energy to continue this discussion because I see no point in trying to convince those that will not listen or understand the damage Ebonics is doing not just to the black community but other others as well from the constant marketing through music, TV, movies, etc.  I won't change my position on it since It's already set. Ebonics as a replacement for English is stupid, it shows others that they are just not yet mature people that have been educated in the English language.  Hopefully those that use it daily will learn to move away from it and use English, when they realize that they need to grow up and mature.  Hopefully those that listen to Rap will also eventually grow out of it and move to something more meaningful in terms of appreciating musicians rather than con artists.   

     

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    Two things.

     

    1. People shouldn't take music literally just like they don't take movies literally. Sure, some of it is autobiographical, but entertainers play characters and sing about fantasy most of the time. Marshall Matthers neighbors in Detroit think he is the nicest guy in town. When he raps, he is the character of Eminem. If we come down hard on rappers for the content of their raps, we must also come down hard on movie actors who portray characters we see as "wrong."

     

     

    2. Again, much of this is all about who is saying it and how it's delivered. 

     

    For example, how about a statutory situation or gang rape:

     

     

     

     

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    1 hour ago, Jud said:

    Now is it really that hard to explain why the same language used by or toward different people has completely different implications and results?

     

    Good story. Reminds me of when I rode a train through East Germany on my honeymoon in 1984. Stormtroopers with submachine guns boarded the stopped train that night and asked me for my papers. Fortunately, my passport was not stamped, "Juden". I felt like I was in the Twlilght Zone, since, if you remember, I had relatives on Schindler's List.

     

    However, your analogy is not convincing. I'd like to see you explain to your 12-year-old, after he watches a couple of Quentin Tarantino films starring Samuel L. Jackson, then listens to some Snoop Dogg and 50 Cent, why he better never utter that word. Confused much?

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    Let's go back *really* far - over 600 years, in fact.

    Quote

     

    This Nicholas anon leet fle a fart,
    As greet as it had been a thonder-dent,
    That with the strook he was almoost yblent;
    And he was redy with his iren hoot,
    And Nicholas amydde the ers he smoot,
    Of gooth the skyn an hande brede aboute,
    The hoote kultour brende so his toute,

    And for the smert he wende for to dye.
    As he were wood, for wo he gan to crye,
    "Help! Water! Water! Help for Goddes herte!"

     

     

    This is one of the greatest classics of English literature, Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales," specifically "The Miller's Tale."  Alison is the wife of a carpenter, John.  She enjoys making love to Nicholas.  Nicholas gets John out of town by convincing him using the Bible that a great flood is coming, so he must travel to buy wood.  Absalom is a census-taker who lusts after Alison.  Earlier in the tale, when Absalom begs for a kiss in the dark, she turns her bare rear end to him, and there is a humorous description of Absalom being puzzled to find a beard on a woman.  Absalom has now come back, again at night in the dark, begging for another kiss, and this time he gets Nicholas's bare butt and a huge fart.  However, Absalom has vowed to take his revenge on Alison for the earlier slight and has borrowed a red-hot iron poker for the purpose.  This he uses to burn the bare rare end and associated parts, not knowing it's Nicholas's.  And at the end of this little section of the tale, we get Nicholas crying for water.

     

    So - a religious man mocked as a simpleton and cuckold; much portrayal of lovemaking, lust and other bodily functions by persons not married to each other; intention of violently burning and maiming a woman with a hot iron poker; actual violent burning and maiming of a not-so-innocent bystander; all to great humorous effect.  Again, this is one of the great acknowledged classics of English literature.

     

    Oh, did you also notice it is written rather unlike English today?

     

    English is not some static, classic construct that people are constantly tearing down with errors, slang, and new forms of patois.  It is those very errors, slang, and patois that become tomorrow's language, just as 6 centuries of errors, slang and patois have resulted in the "proper English" we write and speak today being different from Chaucer's.

     

    And neither is our society a classic, static construct that is deteriorating.  It too has always told tales of sex, violence and all our other preoccupations, and found broad humor in others' misfortunes.

     

    So all the words that might infiltrate the language from rap (or "ebonics" if you want to call it that) have to get in line behind centuries of the same, exactly as rap's tales of violence, "bitches" and "hos," sex, etc., must do behind Chaucer and all the rest.  Since it's been going on ever since there *was* English (and of course before that, as English branched off from its Saxon and Norman-Latinate roots) and civilization, I don't think there's much call to start being overly concerned right now.

     

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    38 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    People shouldn't take music literally just like they don't take movies literally. Sure, some of it is autobiographical, but entertainers play characters and sing about fantasy most of the time. Marshall Matthers neighbors in Detroit think he is the nicest guy in town. When he raps, he is the character of Eminem. If we come down hard on rappers for the content of their raps, we must also come down hard on movie actors who portray characters we see as "wrong."

     

    I completely disagree with this. The music of a people reflects much more closely on their feelings and attitudes than the movies they choose to attend.

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    3 minutes ago, wwaldmanfan said:

    However, your analogy is not convincing. I'd like to see you explain to your 12-year-old, after he watches a couple of Quentin Tarantino films starring Samuel L. Jackson, then listens to some Snoop Dogg and 50 Cent, why he better never utter that word.

     

    It just takes a little effort and intellect to talk to one's child about this stuff. Movies and music are great escapes and great entertainment. Separating entertainment from the real world for one's children is a parent's.

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    4 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

     

    I completely disagree with this. The music of a people reflects much more closely on their feelings and attitudes than the movies they choose to attend.

     

    The largest consumers of rap music have traditionally been white kids from the suburbs. That included me back in the day. I listened the heck out of NWA's Straight Outta Compton. It reflected a totally different life from mine and at no time did I think it was good to kill cops or that the members of NWA were killing cops. I certainly listened to Fuck Tha Police many many times though.

     

     

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    46 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

     

    The largest consumers of rap music have traditionally been white kids from the suburbs. That included me back in the day. I listened the heck out of NWA's Straight Outta Compton. It reflected a totally different life from mine and at no time did I think it was good to kill cops or that the members of NWA were killing cops. I certainly listened to Fuck Tha Police many many times though.

     

     

    Considering the size of the white poplulation, why is that so hard to believe? And, what does that have to do with anything anyway?

     

    It may reflect a life totally different than yours. But for the guys writing the words, and the community they come from, not so much. That's why the words are so vile.....it's how they actually think.

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    Just now, Speed Racer said:

     

    Considering the size of the white poplulation, why is that so hard to believe? And, what does that have to do with anything anyway?

     

    It may reflect a life totally different than yours. But for the guys writing the words, and the community they come from, not so much. That's why the words are so vile.....it's how they actually think.

     

    Wow.

     

    P.S. Do you advocated against horror movies as well?

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