mleghorn

The good news is at least the defect isn't in the original FLAC files. I'd like to keep this discussion going, and hopefully get to the bottom of this issue. I'm appalled that Passionato, iTunes, and Amazon are selling these defective copies of music. It's frustrating to me that they're getting away with it and that hardly anyone notices it. Why can't someone from Passionato, e.g. acknowledge the issue, tell us the cause, and fix it? Mike

Ah, so the peanut gallery weighs in to help me hone in on the crux of the issue :-) I'm not sure what you mean by laundering. Is it a technical term? I downloaded the Uchida Hammerklavier and Schumann Symphony albums straight to my iPod. I could hear the defect on my iPod, and on my home system after I uploaded it from my iPod to my computer. I'd like to know more about this "laundering" process. When I copy files from a CD to a hard drive, or when I install software from a CD or a download, do the bits get altered somehow (maybe become less shiny)? Mike

The 15 second time difference was due to silent padding at the end of one of the tracks. I'll continue to investigate the issue. I believe that the two tracks I compared were not good examples of the problem, i.e. the downloaded version of the track did not exhibit the defect. Next: find a track that does exhibit the defect, for which I also have a CD equivalent. I know there is one among the Haydn French Symphonies. When I find a good example, I'll load the tracks into Sonar and compare. Mike

Very interesting story Mark B. Thanks for relating. I found a track that was 15 seconds longer in CD version than in the downloaded version, and loaded both versions into Sonar. I was able to prove to myself pretty conclusively that both versions are perfectly in phase with each other. I managed to sync them together and play them both at the same time. If they ever got slightly out of phase there would be pretty dramatic effect in the sound. They sounded in phase all they way through. Btw, I had a little fun, and listened to both tracks at the same time, but offset from each other by a split second. It sounded like the music was coming out of tunnel.

I doubt that it has anything to do with my computer because I hear the problem when I listen to the music on my iPod touch as well as on my computer. The defect is in the downloaded file (AAC and FLAC). I don't know where the defect was introduced, but I suspect it's in a common source, upstream of iTunes and Passionato. I wonder if the problem is caused by a faulty method of transfer of the digital data from the source to the downloaded format, e.g. from Polygram archives to whatever the product is that iTunes and Passionata receives from the label. I don't know if this is relevant, but on one of the Haydn tracks (Symphonies with Dorati) where the problem was very noticeable, the track time on the downloaded version is a few seconds shorter than the same track on the CD. Maybe the transfer involves devices on opposite ends that require clocking for the digital transfer, causing severe jitter. If someone could try downloading a track of Uchida's Hammerklaviar from iTunes (or tracks from any of the other albums I mentioned above) the problem should be apparent. Listen especially closely wherever there are subtle changes in dynamics, e.g. echo tails, decay of sustained piano. Although it's moot, I'm using a Windows 7 PC.

Just to help isolate the problem, I would try using the audio out from the airport express -- you might even be able plug headphones directly into it (headphones must have a stereo mini plug). If you still hear the problem then you know the problem isn't introduced into the digital signal being sent to your DAC/amp. Also, as a side note, I tried streaming from my iPod touch directly to my airport express. I noticed that the sound quality isn't as good as streaming from iTunes on the computer. After closer comparisons, I concluded the when streaming from the iPod touch the music is somewhat compressed and the sound stage is reduced. I suspect the bit-rate is lowered in the streaming from the iPod touch to the airport express.

Time for me to reply :-)<br /> <br /> I haven't heard the various formats (mp3, hi-res, etc..) of the Beatles albums, so I can't speak with authority. If people are saying that the can hear a difference, and that higher res sounds better than lower res, I have to take them at their word. <br /> <br /> By "dated" I meant that the sound quality isn't up to today's standards. There are recordings from the late 50's and early 60's that are not dated, e.g. some of the Mercury recordings, especially the ones on 35mm tape. <br /> <br /> I wouldn't expect the Beatles albums to have much dynamic range. For one thing, compression was a given, right? I doubt that any pop recordings were made in the 60's without compression. A compressor was just a essential as a microphone and a tape recorder.<br /> <br /> Without having made any comparisons, I can still imagine that at least mid-range detail, even in "dated" recordings would improve with higher resolution.<br />

Why bother with hi-res for the Beatles? The recordings are dated, compressed, distorted, with very little dynamic range. I doubt anyone would be able to tell the difference between hi-res and mp3 versions of a Beatles album.

I suspect the problem is introduced before your USB connection, i.e. in the computer. I noticed you're using an ASIO driver. Is that necessary? There is a standard USB audio device driver for Windows (which I use all the time for my DAC, and it works great). It doesn't do much, other than route the digital to your USB. I suggest, then, temporarily uninstalling whatever software you're using for your USB drivers, and plugging your external device (i.e. DAC) into your computer's USB. It should be plug and play, and select the standard USB driver.

Madfloyd, you might find this post to be informative: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/My-Setup-using-iTunes-AirPort-express-which-has-digital-output-and-Remote-app The one thing I didn't specify in the post was, I'm using a Windows 7 computer.

I absolutely love my music setup. For me it is the ultimate in sound quality and convenience. Here's my setup: 1) All of my music is on an external hard drive (1TB), in an iTunes library. Most of the library consists of music I ripped from my CD collection, in uncompressed WAV or AIFF format. About 1,200 classical CDs worth of music is in the library. 2) I use the Remote app (free) on my iPod touch to remotely control the library. With this app I can search the library by artist, composer, etc..., play & pause a track or album, manage play lists, and adjust volume. 3) I stream my iTunes to an AirPort express. The laptop running iTunes and my iPod touch are using the same wireless network (which isn't connected to the internet, BTW). 4) The AirPort express is connected to my DAC, via optical cable plugged into the multi-purpose output of the AirPort express (i.e. it's an audio and optical output). Downstream of this is my audio system, which sounds great to my "golden" ears: 1) Headroom Desktop Amp (with DAC) http://www.headphone.com/headphone-amps/headroom-desktop-amp.php 2) Sennheiser HD800 headphones I do all my listening on headphones. It's a tradeoff, but I've found that I can get great sound with a headphone system for a lot less money than I would have to pay for a system with speakers (which would have to include an amp, pre-amp, and cables). Some of you may be wondering about the sound quality of the AirPort express connected to my DAC via optical cable, and how it compares to playing CDs on a good quality transport, using a high-end digital connection to the DAC. I've made that comparison, using the Proceed PDT-3 transport (retailed for over $3,000). My conclusion was that the setup with the AirPort express sounded better than the setup with the transport. Hence, my transport became an expensive boat anchor which I was able to sell promptly on Audiogon -- it was in very high demand (poor deluded fools!) To mitigate the risk that I'd be left high and dry one day should iTunes no longer work, I tried to use MediaMonkey in place of iTunes. With a lot of research and screwing around, I was able to import music into MediaMonkey and control with the Remote app on my iPod touch. It worked like crap though. The biggest issue was that the library in MediaMonkey rendered very slow in the Remote app, and when it finally did render, it was unorganized and difficult to navigate. After that discouraging experience, I didn't bother to address streaming from MediaMonkey to my AirPort express. I should also mention why I prefer streaming to my AirPort express over connecting my computer to my DAC via USB (my DAC also has a USB connection) and using the computer speakers (which would result in digital output from the computer to my DAC via USB). You'd think that the USB connection would be the best option. Unfortunately that's not the case, as iTunes has trouble with that, i.e. I hear annoying clicks which occur several times per minute (at random intervals).

I should clarify: I've observed the problem in mp3 files as well as in FLAC files. Try downloading a track from iTunes of Uchida's Hammerklavier -- it probably won't cost more than $1 -- you'll see what I mean.

I don't know. I have the same question. Does anyone know about this problem? Has anyone observed it? Thanks, Mike

I noticed a subtle but nasty defect in music that I've downloaded recently from iTunes and Passionato. All flac tracks I've downloaded from Passionato have the defect, as do the last two albums I downloaded from iTunes. These are the albums: Passionato: Beethoven sonatas performed by Pollini (DG in FLAC format) Ravel Orchestral works, with Boulez and BPO (DG in FLAC format) Haydn Complete Symphonies, with Dorati and the Sinfonia Hungarica (Decca in FLAC format) iTunes: Beethoven Hammerklavier with Uchida (Philips, mp3, 256kbps) Schumann Symphonies, with Chailly and RCO (Decca, mp3, 256kbps) Now a description of the defect (it's hard to describe): Subtle changes in volume are stepped intead of continuous. I particularly notice it with piano -- gradual decay of sustained notes. The defect sometimes introduces a tremolo effect in strings -- I suspect when the music hovers around a certain volume, causing the "stepping" to go back and forth between two volumes. I don't need to use my best equipment to hear this defect. I can hear it while using my iPod touch (3rd gen) with decent earphones. I also hear it on my home system (Sennheiser HD800s, Headroom amp + DAC, iTunes streamed to Airport express, with digital out connected to DAC). I've tried diffent software for converting the FLAC to WAV or AIFF, and I even imported the FLAC into Sonar (my DAW) and could hear the flaw when playing the tracks in Sonar (as FLACs). Also, I ended up buying the CD equivalents of some of the albums, and did not hear the defect in the CDs. Has anyone else besides myself heard this defect? Does anyone have an explanation? Thanks, Mike