Encore

I have no recommendations for concrete devices but the setup plan looks good.

Until now, I would have treated the claim that a DAC would be impervious to the upstream chain the same as claims of useable fusion reactors. But it does seem that EMM/Meitner has finally delivered on that. That is good news. That raises the bar for competitors. As much as I love my eR, I would rather not have to bother with it. But I also think that Uptone don't need to panic--it'll probably be very difficult for others to replicate what Meitner have done here, otherwise there would be many more DACs that could do the same. Many manufacturers, including Meitner, have been claiming it for years without delivering.

Interesting. Usually, DAC manufacturers claim that their DACs are oblivious to the upstream chain, but they never are IME. Maybe unicorns do exist ... Have you arrived at the same conclusion as Mike, using long-term listening? EDIT: I have owned two Emm Labs/Meitner DACs, and they were anything but immune to the upstream setup.

Same experience as me 👍 Do you know if the DXE ISO-Plus filters still make a difference now that you have the two eR's connected with fiber?

I have now tried this, and as expected, things improved once again. Perhaps not quite as much as I had expected but definitely enough to make it worthwhile to see if my electrician can find a way to install a permanent fiber-optic cable. BTW, I haven't seen any single-mode fiberoptic cables longer than 15 meters (about 45 ft). Is there a limit to how long these can be?

A question for @Superdad: I have a tube-based external clock. It uses NOS Telefunken EF11 and EF12 tubes, and while the manufacturer has said that they are strong tubes and that I can leave it on 24/7, I really don't like to do that with precious NOS tubes. However, I have read elsewhere from you or John that the eR is best left on 24/7, and that it takes a couple of days for it to reach optimum performance. So my question is: Is it safe to I leave the eR on even though I turn the external clock on (leaving the eR on the 'Ext clock' setting)? Of course, I would need to restart the eR every time I turn on the external clock.

Could you guys take this discussion elsewhere? Please … EDIT: Sorry, reread your posts. Seems you have already put it to rest. I was worried that it would turn into some objective vs subjective discussion, which isn’t of much help.

I have come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as absolute isolation. No matter how good your isolation device, it can always be improved by more of them and better PSUs, clocks, et cetera.

In addition to what Alex and others have answered, take a look at my post here: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/57686-the-etherregen-thread-for-various-network-cable-power-experiences-and-experiments/?do=findComment&comment=1194937 Replacing part of the ethernet copper with fiber before the EtherREGEN that feeds my streamer made a big difference. At least in my system. I have come to believe that there's no such thing as absolute isolation in digital audio. The EtherREGEN is a fantastic device but it too can benefit from upstream optimization.

I have now moved the first eR closer to EoP outlet and replaced the 15 m ethernet cable with a 0.5 m Supra ethernet cable and 15 m fiber. The result was again a big increase in objective sound quality but somehow I'm still struggling with a notion that the music has less emotional appeal. I'm really puzzled by it--in the past, this kind if improvement has always just been plain better. Period. On all parameters. The improvement is so big that I can't see myself going back, and maybe there's also now a sort of confirmation bias--that I have talked myself into this, and that I'm trying too hard to be moved by the music. Which is, of course, the last thing to do. A very nice upside is that I tend to turn the volume up much louder, and that does indeed give more scale and impact to the music but isn't always practical. The music now does bother my wife downstairs, and even though my music room is on the top floor in the apartment building with no immediate neighbors, it is an old building, and I'm worried that I may be drawing on their patience now. The next thing to experiment with is to try bypassing the EoP by attaching the first eR directly to the router downstairs . My wife should be away for some days in May, so I'll give it a try there. If it rocks, I'll see if I can have my electrician make it a permanent installation.

I have already detached the shield at the downstream end--that's what the Kapton tape does. And it did indeed give a sizeable improvement 🙂 I will be experimenting with getting rid of the 15 m Ethernet cable, in first instance by placing it closer to the EoP outlet, allowing a shorter run of better Ethernet cable. Later I also want to try to run optical from the router downstairs, circumventing the EoP. I have had this a few times. I suspect it is because there is a band of noise and distortion that has been removed making it more comfortable to play at higher volume., and higher volume helps to dig deeper into the sound and soundstage. Exactly. But I think it's a combination with what I've always experienced when I have improved the digital chain: The frequency extremes become better. I.e. more weighty bass and crisper highs. In some cases I think the ear may pick this up as a more recessed midrange. This then prompts you to turn up the volume. And I think I just had to get used to it--I really dig it now! Listening to the Dune soundtrack, I was totally blown away yesterday 😆

You’re right. However, I stream almost exclusively from Qobuz. I have only a few albums that aren’t on Qobuz on my local disc. Moreover, I can’t do AB tests. I need to listen longer-term in order to detect and get a grip on differences. But remember that the signal still crosses one moat. The second eR didn’t make that big of a difference in the first place. And yes, the word magic is totally called for :-)

OK, so with @GryphonGuy's help I got a couple of 1310 nm SFP modules and some single mode fiber optic cable. In first instance, I have inserted it as shown in this diagram. From experimenting with Kapton tape on the earth connectors of Ethernet cables, I had established that the biggest improvement came from putting it on the 15 m long Ethernet cable that runs from my EoP outlet (probably some nasty SMPS in there). So this cable goes in on the B side of the first eR. The Ethernet cable from the Roon core goes into the A side, so not quite ideal – it would have been better if I could connect both on the opposite site of the SFP port. But worth the try. From the A side fiber optic goes to A side of the second eR. From the B side Ethernet cable goes to the streamer PC. This gave a clear improvement. Transparency improved, making the soundstage feel bigger, I tend to turn the volume up more. Maybe the mids now feel a little recessed, something that is also a trait of my Emission Labs 300B XLS tubes. So maybe the sound from the DAC has become more balanced, exposing this character of the power tubes more than before. In a funny way the sound has become almost too clean. Difficult to explain but especially at low volume the sound is a little less engaging. However, it is still early days, and I think the pros outweigh the cons. I don’t see myself be going back! Some more experimenting is necessary, though. I want to try to replace the 15 meter Ethernet cable with fiber optical. However, that will move the SMPS of the first eR to a non-dedicated outlet. Difficult to predict what that will give. It gave an improvement to move the SMPS for the Macbook Pro away from the dedicated circuit breaker onto a regular one.

You might want to try Ethernet over Power, i.e. through your electrical installation. In my system, this sounded better than wifi. It doesn't cost a fortune to try out.

Thanks for describing your journey. Just goes to show why it's so difficult to generalize ... 😊