dbrulhart

Merging doesn't do NAMM, we're concentrating on pro shows like AES/NAB/IBC/ISE/Infocomm and consumer high-end shows. But there will be RAVENNA related announcements soon ;-)

Well, it all depends the application. Ravenna/Dante/AES67 are protocols meant for very low latency and synchronization of multiple devices. This may not be required for "simple" playback in a home environnement, A "playback only" oriented protocol, like RAAT for instance is enough for this scenario and may certainly be more resilient and accomodating to the home network jungle. On a case analysis point of view this is certainly a better choice. However building a network strategy on a protocol offering real-time synchronization will offer capabilities in the future that may be very welcome, specially for live events, video related scenarios, low latency distributed processing, etc... The clocking mechanism is transparent and automatic in Ravenna/Dante, the master is automatically negotiated and elected by the devices on the network, but a given device can be manually set as the master if the user knows (or decides) it's got the best clock source. It however requires at least one hardware unit in the system being the master clock, as Windows and Mac are not responsive enough to generate a proper "software" clocking. A real-time Linux could do the job. Our Ravenna/AES67 Linux driver could allow being a master if running on a proper Linux distribution. Ravenna and Dante are not designed to work on a Wifi network. They require a cabled network. However wireless doesn't necessarily mean Wifi, there are alternatives. We're working on it ;-) This is the exact reason why we decided to embark with Ravenna... the ability to extend the protocol if needed. We actually added the DSD support in Ravenna ourself as this was not in at the begining. We specified it up to DSD256 for now, but may easily extend again to DSD512 or DSD1024 when time comes. Other specific data, like MQA for instance, or any "non standard PCM" data may be easily added to the protocol if needs be, why not ? That's the beauty of our job, keeping all the complexity for us, and making things simple for the user... this is actually more a karma than a job ;-)

Hi Miska, The clock distribution is part of the RAVENNA (PTP2) and Dante protocol (PTP1) and is totally transparent and not complex. No special adapters are needed. On the pro market (Horus/Hapi) we use RAVENNA/AES67 in multicast mode, and this indeed requires being careful with the network not to impact too much other equipment on this network. However on the home market (NADAC) we use RAVENNA in unicast mode, which works perfectly on any network, with any of the shelf switches or network adapters. And all this works natively even for multichannel DSD (DSD is part of RAVENNA, as opposed to Dante) without any complexity involved. Merging provides RAVENNA/AES67 drivers for Windows, Mac and Linux (so no hardware adapters required) as well as OEM hardware cards for integrating in hardware products. Simple ;-) Cheers, Dominique

Dear "input username here", 1) On the pro side there are dozens of manufacturers who implemented Ravenna in both hardware and software. But I was talking about the consumer/audiophile side here. We are currently deploying our Linux Ravenna driver on various manufacturers products. We have shown working Aurender, Melco and Roon-ROCK systems in Munich in May, but there are a good number of others currently integrating our driver. Technically, we can add to the picture all applications running on Windows and MacOS as their manufacturers benefit from the Ravenna support through our Windows and MacOS drivers as well, like Roon, JRiver, Audirvana, etc, etc. This is for the "software" side. On the hardware side, the only consumer products supporting Ravenna today are NADAC and NADAC PLAYER, but the soon availability of the ZMan board will add many to the game. There are here also a good number of companies currently working on integrating ZMan in their DACs, speakers or other devices. 2) Stricto-senso, the "quality" of the bits transfered by Ethernet, USB, Firewire, Thunderbolt or even AES or SPDIF is the exact same. Every bits reach the destination intact and in the proper sequence. If it weren't the case we wouldn't discuss about sound quality but about glitches, pops, scratches or bangs. So, on the transport aspect, all those technologies are equal (if we put aside latency, number of channels, resolution, which are quantity considerations and not quality considerations). However, the sending and receiving devices can be more or less accomodating to the technology involved by these transmissions, some are synchronous, some are asynchronous, some have more or less jitter, some are more of less precise, etc... and it is then down to the sending and receiving devices to be properly designed to accomodate with these constraints. In theory all those transmission mediums can sound equivalent if the hardware implementing them is properly designed. So in that sense Ethernet can have some advantages, like a better galvanic isolation, specially if using optical cables. Ravenna is a very precise, low jitter and low latency protocol, so meaning that it can have, in theory, advantages in the design of hardware communicating with it. But it's main advantage is definitely its flexibility. Quality is really down to the engineers not to the technology. 3) Well, there are many aspects in surround processors: the format decoding, but generally also processing (as its name suggest), like channel mapping, down-mixing, up-mixing, room correction and more creative effects (like stadium effect, action movie effect, etc...), and this can be quite costly in term of DSP. We plan offering some processing capabilities in ZMan, like room correction (to some level), EQ, up/down mixing, up/down sampling, etc... We are also investigating format decodings, however today any (decent) Bluray player actually properly decodes Atmos, DTS:X and Auro, so no real need to be done externally. So, on a purist approach of sound quality, if we were to use ZMan in this context, I would be more tempted to let the Bluray player decode the format itself, give up on special effects, and keep the DSP for either some room correction or some upsampling. Typically an HDMI audio to Ravenna converter would be the perfect link between Bluray players or video servers to Ravenna enabled DACs. As mentionned in the interview, Ravenna would allow as standard to start with a stereo DAC, then add more DACs later for the surround. Or even allow for hybrid solutions, with a very high-end "traditional" stereo system for the front, and active Ravenna enabled speakers for the rear and center. As Chris said: the limit is the imagination. Best regards, Dominique

Dear Keith, Your posts begin to become embarrassing and show, I’m afraid, that you mismatch parts and devices, electronic and music, money and magic. When you buy a bottle of Saint Estephe 1985, you don’t buy grapes, you buy Wine, elaborated by the best Winemakers ! When you buy a 30 years old Scottish Malt, you don’t buy grain and water, you buy Whiskey, made probably by the father of the person who actually sells it today ! When you buy a Ferrari, you don’t buy wheels, pistons and front beam, you buy an actual marvel, manufactured by the best Engineers on earth ! It goes the same when you buy one the of the best DAC on market today. How do you valuate the 40 years of experience and expertise of the engineers who designed it ? How can you compare this or that part with the actual process of carefully selecting it and assembling it with other parts ? Why do you think IKEA doesn’t sell DACs ? Because it doesn’t work that way ! I’m pretty sad to have to reply that way to an actual customer of our, specially after such a perfect answer that Michael one, all was said: We are not a part oriented manufacturer, we’re a result oriented manufacturer, we’re a Music oriented manufacturer ! As Michael put so well again, our work goes like all the examples above, greater than the sum of all parts, like everything worth it on this planet, like yourself for instance as a human being… … your own ability to enjoy Music is definitely due to something much greater than only your flesh and bones ! Now, if you really think that you’ve been ripped off and that the NADAC is not worth more than the price of his parts, my offer to buy it back still stands, but we’ll only buy the parts back, the Magic is yours now. Cheers, Dominique

Not at all Sir ! Please find below the press release sent just before the RMAF show two weeks ago: (sorry if not appropriate in a forum thread, but can't explain better ;-) PRESS RELEASE ROON ENABLED MERGING+NADAC PLAYER AT RMAF 2016 A new generation of integrated audiophile server will be demonstrated by On a Higher Note Puidoux, Switzerland. September 2016: Merging Technologies will display a pre-production version of the Merging+NADAC Player at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest. The result of a dynamic partnership with Roon Labs, On a Higher Note, Merging’s US distributor will be demonstrating the product in Long Peaks on the Mezzanine floor of the Denver Marriott Tech Center. The concept of Roon’s ground breaking player program being offered in integrated solutions is not new; there being many existing partners with products available, but this will be the first time that the focus will shift to a complete turnkey and networked solution offering stereo as well as multichannel capability up to DSD256 and DXD. The Merging+NADAC player was shown as a concept at the 2016 HIGH END Munich event and was welcomed by the attendees. The ‘single box’ solution with the software and the server combined with a DAC removes the need to have a computer in the living room. The ease with which the whole system can be controlled by your favorite tablet or smart phone enhances the user experience significantly. Integration details such as direct control of the NADAC volume and mute from the Roon user interface, also adds to the overall ergonomics by simplifying the control of the entire system from one single page on one single tablet. The NADAC Player requires only to be connected to the home network to access the remote control tablet through Wifi and stream from NAS servers storing music. When connected on the network any computer can still also stream music to NADAC using Merging Ravenna/AES67 drivers for Windows or Mac, while the NADAC Player enjoys a brand new Merging Linux/ALSA driver. Optional USB drives containing music may be connected directly on the back plate of the NADAC Player. Roon is well known to provide a superlative user experience with its friendly interface and the most comprehensive database available for the music lover seeking information on all aspects of his favorite track. Marrying Roon to the best sounding and most transparent DAC available and providing multichannel playback would be noteworthy enough but the addition of true networking advantages provides a degree of in-home flexibility that users could only dream about. Merging also announced that this solution can be retrofitted to all Merging NADAC units already in the field and to any units shipping from now on, meaning that early adopters can take advantage of the upgrade if they wish. The Merging+NADAC Player is planned to be shipping in time for CES in January. Prices will show a small increase from the existing DAC despite the huge increase in functionality and convenience. The price will include a VIP Service Program that covers numerous added-value benefits during the generous three-year warranty. This will cover remote assistance, IT support, online technical support and free shipping both ways in case of the need to return the unit. Roon’s CEO, Enno Vandermeer commented; “We are sure that this combination of the very best audio reproduction and the ultimate user experience, is going to bring back the enjoyment of listening to music in the home.” On Merging’s behalf, Head of Software Engineering and NADAC Product Manager, Dominique Brulhart stated; “The feedback we have had from customers, dealers and distributors over the past few months has convinced us that the market wants an elegant solution in a neater package. The Merging+NADAC Roon player is just that.” -ends- Merging Technologies SA is a Swiss manufacturer with 25 years of experience in developing groundbreaking, professional Audio and Video products for a wide range of entertainment and media industries. With a dedicated user base in the elite end of the music, film, television, mastering and performances industries, Merging is committed to developing product ranges with unrivalled quality and flexibility, no matter what the application. Merging builds tools for people who want more from their systems, have an inherent need to push boundaries, and believe that quality always comes first. For more information, please see: www.nadac.merging.com RAVENNA is a solution for real-time distribution of audio and other media content in IP-based network environments. Utilizing standardized network protocols and technologies, RAVENNA can operate on existing network infrastructures. RAVENNA is designed to meet the strict requirements of the professional audio market featuring low latency, full signal transparency and high reliability and is fully AES67 compatible. With a capacity of nearly 8 x MADI streams over a single Gigabit Ethernet link, it is also the first and only Layer-3 based IP audio protocol with full support for high-channel count DXD and DSD signals. While primarily targeting the professional broadcast market, RAVENNA is also suitable for deployment in other professional audio market segments like live sound, install market and recording. Possible fields of application include (but are not limited to) in-house signal distribution in broadcasting houses, theatres, concert halls and other fixed installations, flexible setups at venues and live events, OB van support, inter-facility links across WAN connections and in production & recording applications. These capabilities make RAVENNA highly suitable for domestic audiophile and home cinema applications. http://ravenna.alcnetworx.com For more information on AES67 and its adoption for interoperability, consult the Media Networking Alliance website Media Networking Alliance

Dear Bunpei, Not sure where you heard this information, but we have no plan for now to use the new ESS9038PRO. Sorry for the disappointment, if any. Cheers, Dominique

Dear Bilbo, Merging has not blocked this feature, and even less to differentiate the two products... because there was no plan to design a NADAC one day when we designed Hapi and Horus... If Hapi cannot enjoy this feature it is only because the hardware layout doesn't allow for it, and this is actually one of the reasons why we designed a completely new circuitry for NADAC... but only one of the reasons. Cheers, Dominique

Dear Keith, First, thank you for purchasing a NADAC, and if the following can help you feeling happy to have done this choice, I'll be hapi too ;-) The differences between Hapi and NADAC are actually more subtle than what you're listing above, please refer to our FAQ below for details about this. While using the same so called EtherTube motherboard, the Ravenna soul of all Merging products, all the analog circuitry is totally different and definitely designed to fit the audiophile experience. https://confluence.merging.com/display/PUBLICDOC/FAQ#FAQ-WhatisthedifferencebetweenMERGING+NADACandHAPI,andwhyshouldIbuyaMERGING+NADACinsteadofHAPI? All our products have been designed not to follow what the competition does, or save pennies on parts, but to follow what we think being the best way of doing things, and the result is there, all reviews written about NADAC simply confirm this is one of the best sounding DAC ever produced, way above its price point. There are reasons for this. Typically the choice of using the ESS9008 instead of the 9018 is not because it is the lower end, it is because there are elements in the design that made us think it would sound better, and again, the results are there. If we left empty space in the NADAC chassis, is not to make the box bigger and purposely release a product that looks empty, it's in prevision of future additions/options, and they are coming soon, actually next week. NADAC has been designed with the same careful attention to details than Hapi or Horus, but with another feature set in mind, another experience philosophy, and certainly without the slightest intention to cheat customers. Now, if you really think that you made a mistake buying a NADAC, Merging will happy be to find an arrangement to replace it with a Hapi... ...Hapi is an excellent product after all... but you'll not enjoy the same experience. Sincerly, Dominique

It's perfectly clear that the so called "Merging RAVENNA/AES67 Virtual Audio Device - STANDARD Installer" has been released to allow anybody interested in trying AES67 to be able to do so for free and easily. We limited this version of the driver to the exact AES67 specifications, being 44.1/48kHz, 48 samples framesize, etc... purposely to fit this specification and NOT make it unusable in certain conditions or markets. Same remark applies to your assumption that the OSX CoreAudio driver is an update of the Steinberg ASIO driver, unfortunately not... the CoreAudio has been a major rewriting as compared to ASIO, and while we're traditionally a Windows company, we have to confess that the OSX version, thanks to the CoreAudio platform, is more "powerful" than the ASIO version, and allowed for a "clean" release of the VSC without hardware required, and not the Windows/ASIO version for the time being, but will/may come in the future. This free VSC is Merging contribution to the arising and deployment of an AoIP AES standard, that we were waiting for since years and are immensely grateful to all those persons involved in its publication. Now we're fully aware that AES67 in its current form doesn't fit for certain applications, typically high resolution and consumer requirements, discovery, easy connections between devices, etc... but for this there is Ravenna, which perfectly covers all these aspects. We still definitely need Ravenna for our commercial products, being pro or consumer, and still deliver Ravenna drivers with all our products, however with slight differences, based on the specificity of their targeted usage, as described above in this thread. However AES67 being a subset of Ravenna, all our drivers are then AES67 compatible by default. Now to the question of knowing if Merging would be interested in providing Ravenna/AES67 Virtual Sound Cards, drivers or even hardware parts to other manufacturers, and help (if not necessarily lead) in the development and deployment of Ravenna based solutions for this market, the answer is clearly: Yes. We are currently actively working on solutions that will be able to be integrated in other products (as well as ours ;-) and will be available in a reasonably near future. As you say, disclosing firms future plans will only be done under NDA at this stage, however you can send us private messages immediately ;-) Cheers,

OK, got it, sorry for the confusion... and that'll be quicker ;-) I'm Dominique Brulhart, co-founder of Merging Technologies some 25 years ago, my main position is Head of Software Engineering at Merging. I've initiated the step in the consumer market some years ago and taken the role of Product Manager for the consumer line, being NADAC at that point in time. Very happy to hear that you're in the networking industry and that the RedNet has been a revelation for you. Networking has also been a revelation for Merging some 8-9 years ago when we stepped in this technology for our pro line, mainly for bandwidth and cabling consideration initially, but it's been very clear immediately that networked audio is much much more than plumbing. The flexibility, quality, precision, easiness of deployment, redundancy, sharing of devices, etc, etc... of networking solutions changed the life of many/most of our users (and ourselves), clearly for the better, and while we perfectly acknowledge that professional and home usage involve pretty different requirements, we have absolutely no doubt that the home/consumer industry has all to benefit from AoIP. (And even more by using open protocols like Ravenna, in which for instance we could very easily add the support for DSD in the standard... typically adding the support for DSD512 (or higher) will be a question of days, mainly administrative days, the tougher though ;-)) The move to NADAC was not meant to make a statement or rule this world on any manner, it's been a careful decision, based on repeated requests from our mastering and recording engineers customers, and the choice of going with a no compromise Ravenna solution without USB was just an obvious and non-negotiable decision, thus its name NADAC. There's been some youth issues on home networks, like the Unicast/Multicast or some interaction with specific equipment that we never find on professional dedicated networks, the kind of problems Chris Connaker mentioned in this thread, that is now solved and available to all NADAC users through a recent firmware and driver update. However these were not intrinsic problems of the Ravenna or AES67 protocol, but Merging implementation issues. I guess it's important to make this very clear. We're already working on new products, both on the pro and the consumer side, and all of them will definitely be Ravenna/AES67 compatible, high resolution capable and targeted to expand an ecosystem making the link between both the pro and the consumer world and allowing producers to easily provide and listeners as easily enjoy master quality recordings at home. Here's for the introduction ;-)

Well, it was not the point here to make any advertisement for Merging, specially in a thread initially targeted to Focusrite/RedNet, but just clarifying some points about Ravenna/AES67, as they've been mentioned in the thread, as well as Merging point of view and status about both these protocols, as they are what we truly believe being the future of audio over IP, and particularly high resolution. As per an introduction to Merging work and expertise, and again not to fall in easy advertisement, nor trying to offload myself to writing something at length here, I feel a pretty decent introduction to Merging history, philosophy and expertise in networking can be found here: MERGING+NADAC | HISTORY MERGING+NADAC | PHILOSOPHY MERGING+NADAC | NETWORKING Merging Technologies | Pyramix 10 | 3D - RAVENNA AoIP Connectivity Explained

Audinate indeed released the AES67 support for the Brooklyn II card (and has been successfully tested during last AES67 plugfest in Washington DC last year, however as this card is only the "Dante engine" for all products using it, it now down to the companies integrating it to release this update in their own products. This is on the way, but not "automatic" and has to follow every single companies agenda.

All Merging devices ship with a Ravenna ASIO and CoreAudio driver. Professional products ship with a driver that supports AES67 and offers all flexibility to choose between the various flavors of Ravenna and AES67. Consumer products ship with a slightly modified version of the driver that uses Unicast and highly simplifies the way the connections are done between the hardware (NADAC) and the computer host running the driver (or VSC), no additional application is required to route the signal, only the NADAC front panel and/or related iOS apps are required to select which computer/playback source on the network the NADAC will listen to. Things are slightly more complex though flexible on the pro side. For the time being these two drivers/VSC require a Merging equipment pro or consumer to be functional. They can connect to other Ravenna/AES67 compatible equipment on the network, but one Merging device must be present on the network for now. However, we released in January the first version of a driver which doesn't need the presence of a Merging equipment on the network and this is the so called "Merging RAVENNA/AES67 Virtual Audio Device - STANDARD Installer". This is to promote and establish AES67 on the market as we strongly believe this is the future of AoIP. For technical/performance reasons this is available for now only on the Mac platform. We will release a Windows version down the road. A Linux version is also in preparation.

Merging has two versions of the Ravenna Virtual Sound Card (well more than that actually), but mainly one for the professional side, still in multicast, with much more streams supported, and a consumer one, now operating in unicast (or multicast optionally). There are definitely plans for releasing the unicast support in the professional Virtual Sound Card at some point in the future, however Merging is currently addressing other priorities. AES67 is one of them, Merging released at the beginning of the year a free AES67 Virtual Sound Card that will allow connecting to Dante as soon as their AES67 support will be released, however only at 44.1/48 kHz for the time being. But Merging is following this thread very closely. On thing that is important to notice though, is that Ravenna is the only open protocol supporting sampling rates up to DXD/384kHz, and more important DSD. The currently available Ravenna Virtual Sound Cards, both using multicast for the professional world and unicast for the consumer world do support DSD up to 11.2 (for now), as standard in the protocol, without cheating with DoP. These VSC are available for both Mac and Windows and soon for Linux. AoIP is a complexe beast with multiple heads, that exists for decades on thousands of flavors, however Merging is committed to release usable technology, products and drivers, based on open protocols, allowing for multiple manufacturers to be OPENLY INTEROPERABLE at ANY RESOLUTION on VARIOUS MARKETS. So, Aleg, thank you very much for your very important post, and you're perfectly right Ravenna has still some work to do on their Virtual Sound Card, but this work is actually being done, and very actively. We're progressing step by step, adding the necessary features for each market and applications as they're required, but the motto is simple, networked high resolution for all, and we're not that far. Cheers,