njetty

Just another quick update. Another extended listening session and this time the Ayre might have one this round. Different music used, etc.. What I have noted here in this session, is the Ayre has more "Air", "Body", "palpability", "Dimensionality". This may have always been present but lost in this nearfield listening space during prior sessions. I suspect this will become more apparent if and when I move to the bigger rig. The 4s is just as "clean" and non distorting to my ears. I can listen to either for a long time with no fatigue, which is a great indicator for me. The difference is subtle in this listening space, and again, will likely be very apparent in a larger room, and more expensive down stream components. I will report back when I have more to say. Cheers.

I just want to re-iterate that my listening tests were NOT with the headphone out. This output would involve some kind of digital volume control I believe. I am using the doc connector at the bottom of the 4s and from what I can tell, the digital volume control is not enabled at all. I can't seem to alter the signal strength with the volume control buttons on the iPhone. Volume control duties are managed by the integrated Amp.

I agree that short duration blind tests or A/B testing is not sufficient. You need to listen to components over a long duration to get a handle on their attributes.

I am all for spending big dollars (always a relative thing I guess) to get the best sound quality. I will let my ears tell me where to go though. I have been an audiophile for 20+ years and that is what I have learned over time. Let your ears tell you what is great. I take all magazine reviews as just a point of reference and something to add to my "audition list" if I'm convinced the device is excellent. One way to spot that sort of thing is if the reviewer buys the component being reviewed. But even then, I will reserve my judgement until I have had time to conduct my own review. That is why I have at any one time 3 or so higher end DACs at home. In time I will let one go in the used market and pick up another one for auditioning. I want to know what works best as we are all looking for the transformative event that music can become. At the same time, I am excited about the prospect of saving money in one area of the playback chain. If this 4s proves to be on par or better than other DACs I am willing to own (between 3-5K is my budget, I am unwilling to get into the 5+K area for now :-)) bonus. This will allow me to spend more dollars on pre-amp, amp, and speakers. In my experience, those areas can make a big difference as you move up the cost curve (as I have modulated over the years between low, mid priced to high priced categories (never the VERY high priced categories though, I wish)). Something else to ponder is the USB link for transmitting digital audio signals. This might be a disadvantage to the Ayre. I have heard many DAC engineers comment on disliking the USB interface as compared to other digital signal methods. They have said USB is inherently inferior to other standards like i2s, AES, even SPDIF etc... In the end, they have to support the USB interface, as the market has wanted it for many years. This appears to be changing again anyhow. The current trend is toward network streaming capabilities within the DAC itself, effectively eliminating a digital link between source and DAC. This makes a lot of sense to me as you keep the source and DAC very close to one another.

Are you sure about 16/48 only? I am streaming 24/192 content from JRiver to the streaming software on iPhone. Now I can't be sure that the audio is being down sampled along the way. But again. To my ears it sounds as good or better than the Computer -> USB -> Ayre QB-9 DSD using WASAPI to ensure there is no down sampling.

This is a great post. I have experimented with unplugging the USB power to the dock. I can't really here much of a difference. I still unplug it (when I remember to) when listening with my one system, more out of superstition than anything. I also wanted to make another point here that I don't believe the SSD inside the 4s would be utilized in this setup as I am streaming to the 4s over wi-fi. To do this I have a UNP software player running in the 4s. To update everyone. I have purchased an iPhone 6 and moved all of my "phone" stuff to the new phone. I have reset the 4s and using it exclusively as a streamer/dac for my sound system in the "small room". I am listening right now and doing A/B tests again with the Ayre QB-9 DSD dac. It is close as I introduced a "jitter bug" thing for the USB connection and brought in the better Starlight USB cable. But... Here it comes... I still prefer the phone. Crazy. I don't think there is a notch down in the "detail" department either. There is just a grain/slight harshness going from Computer USB to Ayre. As it is suggested in this post. I suspect there is some kind of Jitter introduced in the playback chain even though I am using a low ripple, fan less power supply in this computer. It has to have something to do with power. I could even see the Ayre receiving "ugly" power with it's power chord, as it is connected to the same cheap Power bar. I have heard that noise can be fed "backward" from a noisy source (computer) into other items on the same power line. It's just a thought. I have not yet moved everything to the "big rig". In time. I am still continuing with the A/B in smaller room. At some point I will be demoting the Ayre QB-9 DSD from this smaller room, and leaving the 4s in here permanently. Once I get into the bigger room, I can do a shoot out with Bel Cantos 3.7, vs Ayre, vs. 4s.

This is odd. I have a feeling the PC Mag article is incorrect here. I think they mistakenly believe there is a DAC inside the Gravitas dock. But it is actually the 4S doing Digital to Analog duties. I don't want to destroy the dock by opening it up. But I do not see any advertisement with the supplier of this dock claiming it has it's own dac chip in the dock.

For $70. I can't believe this dock has it's own DAC internally. And by the way, how I got on this journey is I was moving my system to another room and did not have my components all set up. I was busy on other projects. I was missing music, so I just started plugging my iPhone (from the headphones out) directly to the inputs on the integrated amp. I was enjoying the sound but did not really listen critically. I think at some point I brought the gravitas cradle into the mix just to keep the iPhone charged as it gets power from the USB connection. I decided to take the same analog splitter cord and plug into the back of the gravitas dock for a while (Until I had time to bring all my components to this room (i.e. computer, DAC). Finally I got around to installing all my real gear and was expecting a big "step up" in the sound. I was really unhappy with the exaSound e20 that I had to bring in the more pricey Ayre QB-9 DSD. The sound was better and closer to the iPhone 4S. And then I went on this long A/B listening test and that is what prompted me to start this thread. Someone here had said the wall power would not affect things but, even though the USB power is disabled in the SOTM card to Ayre connection, the raw Power is still feeding both the computer and the DAC. My understanding with Jitter, is that it can be affected by power supply to the source as well as inside the DAC. So I am not ruling out wall power. I have a really cheap power bar, no filtering, etc. That could be another test as well. Bring in better power chords (I am not a big buyer of these items but a lot of trusted Audiophiles do say they make a big difference), Shunyata, etc.. But for me, this brings the hobby to another level that I am not sure I want to go (I like holding on to some of my money). I am not rushing to sell all of my DACs just yet though. :-) I also want to point out that on the web many have said the iPhone 4, 4S in particular had exceptional implementation of DAC/Analog out stage. I have never been an Apple fan boy and had many iPod's back in the day that were never all that good in my opinion. I got the 4S as a phone first, but I had read enough at the time to know it would be a great companion for headphone listening at the Gym, etc. (I am not a big headphone guy). I have read the iPhone 5 series was a big step down in audio performance. A lot of sites were really unhappy as some headphone lovers use the iPhone 4S for all of their listening. I read another article comparing the 6 series and I think it was better than the 5 but the guy sill preferred the 4 series. So it could just be that Apple, at that time, put a lot of engineering and money into the DAC/Analog stage of the 4S. I feel like I want to grab a bunch of used 4S' just in case. I was joking with my wife last night that we will both jump into iPhone 6's when our cell phone contract is up and she has to give me her 4S as she is not allowed to trade in or sell used. I'll report back when I have time to do more testing. At the moment the system I did the first A/B test was a "modest one". The main system has better components (Audio Research integrated and Evolution Acoustics Speakers)

I do not believe there is a DAC in this dock. It is just taking analog out from the phone and directing to a port on the end of the dock.

One last thing I want to add. I've been thinking more and more that there might also be an inherent design flaw with most DACs today in that they have to be so far away from the source (i.e. using a USB cable or other digital cable). We all know that jitter is a really big problem higher end DACs spend so much time, money trying to address. Having the "streamer" integrated into the DAC itself would in theory remove this (as is the case with iPhone 4S and any other DAC that can be connected directly to the network and become a streaming endpoint .. i.e. roon, UPNP/DLNA, etc.). So add this to the list of reasons why the iPhone 4S might sound better to my ears than the computer feeding these higher end DACs.

Hi Rex I was thinking of trying this as well. I have to source an iPhone 4S digital cable. Last time I looked into it, there was an iPhone "Camera" kit for doing this.

Not sure how much people need to know about the PC. I think I have added a lot of details. I am going to try other experiments like streaming the DACs mentioned from an Auralic Aries I have on hand in another room (completely removing the PC). Note the Ayre QB-9 DSD fed by SOTM card with USB powered off is the best of all the DACs tried. But I did another session of A/B between it and the iPhone 4S and I still prefer the 4S. I can't believe it myself. The only thing I can think of is very dirty 120 AC power line feeding the Ayre. Interestingly I did find some software that turns iPhone into UPNP/DLNA renderer. Get this. I am using JRemote on iPad, controlling JRiver playlist UPNP server on the PC, streaming to the iPhone 4S direct analog out to my system. And the sound is really good. And to the poster who said I should check my ears. I am an audiophile for 30 years. I think my ears are pretty good. Believe me. I want to believe that my investment in higher end DACs will result in better sound, as that is all I am interested in. I am going to bring the Aries in at some point. For now I am just going to find some time to A/B 24/192 tracks (all of my library is upconverted to 24/192 wav files) between PC (JRiver) feeding DAC vs JRiver streaming the same tracks over UPNP/DLNA to the iPhone 4S. I have an integrated amp so switching between sources and adjusting volume each time is relatively quick which I find helps a lot in doing this kind of A/B testing. I also like to spend long sessions on one set up vs. another to get a sense of the general character of the component change.

I have done a lot of A/B testing of my iPhone 4S cradled in a "Gravitas" dock, with a very cheap analog cable connected to my system vs. Computer (Asus, Windows) and Sotm USB card to outboard DAC and the iPhone 4S wins every time. This should not happen and I can't explain it. DACs auditioned include: 1) Ayre QB-9 DSD with USB power turned off on Sotm card 2) exaSound e20 3) Bel Canto 3.7 In every A/B test I matched volume levels and played known tracks side by side using the same source. On the PC I used Windows Tidal app connected DAC directly within the Tidal Settings. I also played the same track with JRiver using ASIO or WSAP drivers direct to the DAC. I would then move over to the iPhone 4S with Native Tidal app, and the track wins every time. I use human voice a lot to discern quality differences. Every time I much prefer the iPhone 4s, especially at higher volume levels. So the only conclusion I can make is the streaming from a PC (even with a SOTM card, in fanless, no SSD, and low Ripple fanless powersupply) produces enough noise over USB connection to the DAC, that it can not beat integrated wifi streaming the iPhone 4S is using. I can't believe the DAC or analog output stage of iPhone being implemented better than the above DACs. The only other difference might be the battery powered iPhone having an advantage over outboard DACs reliance on poor/noisy AC line (no filtering, or conditioner involved in the test system). Has anyone else had similar experience? Can anyone else find reason for these results? I so much prefer the iPhone that I am getting crazy thoughts about selling all of my DACs and trying to somehow turn old iPhone 4S' into Roon or JRiver (DLNA/UPNP) endpoints for all of my listening rooms.

Has anyone noticed the sound quality is poor when using JRemote to playback music from JRiver library directly to Sonos UPnP renderer? I can take the same 16 bit, 44.1 khz file and play it 1) From the Sonos app, connected to files directly, out to the Sonos renderer/dac. and 2) from JRemote, to JRiver and out to Sonos Rendere via UPnP. The sound quality for option 2 is much lower than option 1. This does not make any sense as there would be no need for the original FLAC file to be transcoded or worse downsampled in Option 2.

Hi Chris. I think I speak for dmanus1 when I ask...If you had $1,500 to shell out on a new DAC for a desktop system... would you choose the Bel Canto 1.5 or Wadia 121? Since the 121 is not on the cash list I have to think you would lean toward the Bel Canto. I realize everything is dependent on components and the listener. Both DACs are great but people still want to know which would you choose if you were offered both for free but could only select one. Thanks.