tpointon

By saying you never used the NAD method, I assume you mean the use of their 6 FLAC files and a SPL meter? But you must be manually entering REW's calculated settings into the NAD, right? btw, I had difficulty figuring out how to get REW to calculate filter values for the 6 fixed frequencies that are configurable on the NAD. I posted a question on the REW forum and shortly had an answer from the author, John, advising to click on "Calculate Gains and Qs" rather than the fully automatic calculation. You're right about John's massive effort in creating REW. The fact that it is freely available is beyond belief. One of the things REW does is take into consideration overlapping filter settings. How well this works with the NAD is uncertain because all NAD gives for control of Q is a choice between "Wide" and "Narrow". So if REW says drop 120 hz by -2dB with a Q of 6.0 is that "Wide" or "Narrow"? I'm trying to get NAD to tell me what value of Q separates W from N. I too find the scrolling annoying. The best one can do is play with the "Dim" button on the remote. On the flip side, it annoys me that when one enters the configuration menus, if you don't press something within a few seconds it kicks back out. One has to remember to press buttons for no reason to to give it a "keep alive" signal. They got the auto-off in the wrong place. :-) btw, I am actively pursuing room issues on the Axiom forum (my speakers are Axiom M80 v2).

I don't seem to be getting email notification of new posts to this thread. When I click on "Thread Tools" it offers "Unsubscribe from this thread" so I must be subscribed. Any ideas?

Sorry Audio_ELF for not replying. I thought I was in the loop via email, but I don't recall having notification of your post. To your query, not exactly. My main points are: 1. Upon returning from the "Speakers off" function, the PRE-Out/Sub setting should be restored to the same state it was in before turning speakers off. 2. Whatever digital content is currently being processed should be made available at the two digital outs (1 optical, 1 coax) with the possible proviso that the internal resolution might exceed that possible for the given output. In that case (I cannot think of one at present), the amp would ideally downgrade the digital content to the highest resolution possible on that output. The net result of these would be a workable way to alternate between headphone and speaker listening from the same source through the same common path up to the logical splitting point. Hope this clarifies.

If a prospective purchaser took some of the savings on a C390DD at half price and used it to add a DD-BluOS module, I think they would be very pleased with the result. Adding that module has made a world of difference for me. Even without the discount, the addition of the BluOS module to the C390DD sure makes for a clean, capable piece of equipment. No computer, no DAC, just Ethernet (Wi-Fi) straight into the box. Local files, streaming services, 192/24 (claimed, not yet tested). Control it from your iPad / tablet. Tim P

Rather than repeat the entire post, I will edit the quote showing (...) where content was deleted. You're right that I was (or at least came across as) overly harsh. I appreciate your feedback and your candor. My title for this post reflects my initial impressions after installing the BluOS module in my C390DD. What a difference that made!! I will elaborate in a separate post, but suffice to say that it has restored my belief that buying the NAD C390DD was the right decision for me. Using the same point numbers. 1. I can live with periodic visits to the website checking for updates. 2. Check (auto-standby is sketchy) 3. I have a Fiio E17 headphone amp and a pair of AGK 550 phones. But at present, I have to keep my Raspberry Pi to bring digital content to the phones because I cannot bring what the C390DD has inside to the attention of the Fiio. This is even more frustrating now that I have the BluOS module since all digital content now arrives at the C390DD over ethernet. This inability to bring digital content out from the C390 remains a sticking point. It is (imho) the functional equivalent of the analog pre-out / main in jumpers that one has on higher end integrated amps. 4. This is my other sticking point. As long as I cannot use my headphone amp driven with signal from the C390DD, it is irrelevant since the amp will be off if I'm listening via phones. But if NAD ever addresses the digital out issue, they will also need to address this because turning speakers off must also mean turning off subwoofer output. I think it's doable, but they need to make the algorithm more sophisticated. 5. Yes. I think prospective buyers of the C390DD should consider the BluOS module as a near-necessity and factor that cost into the purchase decision. 6. I got the BluOS module and now I don't think I will ever select a different input unless I'm watching a DVD. (seldom in this room) 7. Room EQ is a huge topic that I'm only beginning to appreciate. I didn't have much success with NAD's manual procedure, but using Room Equalization Wizard to measure and calculate parameters has worked well. And I've learned a lot in the process. I hope this is a more balanced presentation of my current position. I really do love the NAD C390DD. I've had it since early 2012 and now that it is for all intents and purposes a Bluesound Powernode on steroids, I think it will be the centrepiece of my audio system for years to come. Tim

This is an invitation to other owners to experiment and report your findings. I'm confused by the unit's behaviour and wish to know if the conclusions I am coming to are shared. I've been experimenting with the settings for Pre-Out / Sub. As you are no doubt aware, the C390DD has a single pair of RCA jacks on the rear that serve dual purpose; they are collectively labelled PRE OUT/SUBW and individually SUBW 1 and SUBW 2. In the Setup menus, there is a corresponding item; actually a pair of items. One enables/disables PRE OUT and the other enables/disables SUBW. The manual says, and my experiments confirm, that enabling one will automatically disable the other. That makes sense since they could not both be enabled given that they share the same port. Notice that this precludes running a sub and at the same time feeding a preamp output to another system. I'm unsure why the designers chose to impose this constraint. Was it to save on the cost of another pair of jacks? When I fist discovered this, I thought "Why not just a toggle that offers PRE OUT or SUBW?" since it's one or the other but not both. But lately, it has occurred to me that a toggle would not allow for "neither". My experiments indicate that in fact you can disable both in which case there is no signal on the output jacks. So of the choices YES/YES, YES/NO, NO/YES and NO/NO, only YES/YES is disallowed. Now to the Speakers Off / Headphones part. I recall a post elsewhere where a C390 owner lamented the absence of a headphone jack on the unit. Although I understood what he was getting at, I thought it unsurprising given the purely digital nature of the C390. Headphones are analogue devices. As I understand it, the C390 doesn't go analogue until the bitter end, just before output to the speakers, and even then it uses some kind of high frequency square wave smoothing to create a curvy (analogue, sinusoidal) wave. NAD must have been listening, because in a recent software/manual upgrade they added a feature to the function of the remote control. Holding down the Mute button for a second or two turns the speakers off. The display momentarily reads Speakers Off but then reads Headphones On. Now momentary pressings of the mute button toggles between Headphones Off and Headphones On. Long-pressing Mute turns the speakers back on. Since I am listening to headphones via a headphone amp connected to one of the digital outs, I really don't think of turning off the speakers as turning on the phones. I am only interested in quieting the speakers. I normally run a sub on the rear jacks, but when I long-press the Mute button to turn speakers off, I find I still have a signal at the sub. Now, I consider a sub to be a speaker, but perhaps NAD does not. So I think to myself, "Okay, let's disable both PRE OUT and SUB and then turn speakers off. I have verified that when I disable both, they seem to be stuck on disabled throughout entries/exits to the menu and there is nothing coming from the sub. So, now I long-press Mute and what do you think happens? If you thought "The room goes quiet" Im sorry to say "Wrong Guess". Nope, a signal shows up at the sub and it starts moaning away in the low end. A visit back to the menus confirms that although Subwoofer remains disabled, Pre Out has been enabled! I notice that although I have my sub crossing over at 40 hz, my sub is playing higher frequencies. I think the poor thing is getting everything up to 20 Khz but it just cannot cope. When I long-press Mute to turn the speakers back on, my sound is muddy on the bottom end and I must go into the menus to enable Sub (and thus disable pre-out, which started out disabled). Now I have an Aha moment. In a recent conversation with NAD through their online support page, I asked how does one use headphones with the C390. Their answer was to plug my phones into the PRE OUT / SUBWOOFER jacks at the back of the amp. I told them I already have a subwoofer plugged into those jacks. I don't want to dig around behind the amp to connect phones. I would add that 3. Headphones don't naturally plug into a pair of RCA jacks. So here is the conclusion to which I am coming: The PRE OUT / SUBW jacks at the back of the unit and their matching menu entries for Pre-Out / Subwoofer are really nothing more than a pair of jacks that can either be enabled or disabled. If enabled, the signal presented there will either be LFE or the whole spectrum depending on which of Subwoofer or Pre-Out respectively is currently enabled. My confusion comes from my former understanding that: There is a difference between a pre-amplifier output and a headphone output. Subwoofers are speakers. Headphones don't normally come with a pair of RCA plugs on the non-listening end. If you have the time, please experiment with this and then come back to answer: Does this match your experience? Do you think I am being overly critical in concluding that this is less than stellar design on the part of NAD?

Audio_ELF, you and I must share a similar sense of humour, and corresponding aversion to causing offence ... I had the same pang before I clicked "post". But we both clicked, so what must that say? Hmmmm..

Regarding item 4 in my original post, I have discovered (with prompting from a reader on another forum) that Optical In's are replicated on Coax Out's and vice versa. But digital content from other inputs (USB, HDMI module, Computer USB) are not. I suspect that the signal from the DD-BluOS module will not be made available there either.

This afternoon I did go into my local NAD dealer and order the DD-BluOS module. So, I'm committed. Despite my apparent negativity, I hope NAD doesn't abandon the C390. Getting one at half price might be a great deal! I don't think I'm bi-polar ...

Thanks Trappy for the confirmation. I tend to listen to jazz, folk, acoustic sorts of music. Even at that, I sometimes find I've bumped to volume up to -10 dB or higher. So I can see if I was into heavier stuff I would probably agree with your comment about not enough oomph.

Many thanks for the heads up. Your friend might find this link helpful: I discovered it a few minutes ago while continuing to try to fins a critical mass of C390 users to talk with.

The originator of this thread said (s)he was interested in sharing experiences of the NAD C390DD with other owners. That's why I gravitated here. If any reader knows of a better/more active thread for this purpose on this or any other forum/website, please let me know. My title for this post reflects my ambivalence about the C390. My experience has led me to believe that in its central design premise it is exemplary. To quote NAD As I mentioned in a recent post, I am committed enough to the C390 to be in the process of purchasing a DD-BluOS expansion module. I do not see this move as "throwing good money after bad", but I have hesitated. Basically, I cannot afford to get rid of the C390 and buy something else. I'm beginning to think I succumbed once again to a tendency to go integrated rather than separate for budgetary reasons, even though I spent more on this amp than ever before; I am not a wealthy audiphile. But I do like the C390's pure sound. Purchasing it was part of my decision that digital is the way to go (for me. I already lived through vinyl's ticks and pops in the 70's). So why the ambivalence. Well, I've been communicating with NAD through their support channel quite a bit lately (https://support.nadelectronics.com/hc/en-us) . I'm trying to get them to admit that their emperor's clothes leave something to be desired. When I initiated my conversation with NAD, I threatened that if I was not satisfied with their answers, I would start speaking in wider circles ..... so, here I am. Here is a list of my beefs including questions posed to NAD and their replies. Owners are not automatically made aware of software changes. Q: December 20, 2015 03:49 I own a C390DD. Several times I have visited the NAD web pages for this product and discovered there was a software update available that I was unaware of. Is it possible to be added to an email mailing list to be notified of such availability? Reply: Thank you for ... your request for email notification of software updates for your NAD C390DD. Unfortunately we do not have a system set up as of yet for this administration. We would recommend you check back every once in awhile to our website for news and updates. We apologize for the inconvenience. Auto-standby does not work if the source device remains powered up and sending a clock signal. Q: January 28, 2016 13:33 Although AUTO STANDBY is enabled, the unit does not enter standby if the selected input device is still powered on but not providing digital music content. Reply: ... some digital sources may not have audio content but still output a valid clock signals the C390 cannot distinguish this and stays on Aside: I have a Raspberry Pi on coax in 1. The Pi never powers down. It runs Linux and I would have to do a shutdown before power off. The little thing draws about as much power as a night light. But I have to remember to power off the C390 or it will run all night. I don't buy NAD's answer. Surely the C390 could sense that although there is clock, there are no changing bits. Or it could feedback from the final output stage and say "10 minutes now of absolute dead silence, I'm outta here". There is no headphone jack and no reasonable alternative for headphone listening. Q: I notice that a recent change to the C390 software provides for turning off the speakers which gets me halfway to headphone listening. ... Is there a way to route the digital content that the C390 receives to my headphone DAC/amp? Reply: The "PRE-OUT"s can be used to run to your headphone amp, Press and hold the "MUTE" button to turn your speakers OFF & ON, all the content running through the C390DD will be routed to the "PRE-OUT"s We hope this information is helpful. My Counter Question: .... which leads to The digital outputs (coax and optical) only loop their corresponding inputs. Q: What is the intended use of the COAXIAL OUT and OPTICAL OUT ports? If for example the reply was "for headphone listening" I would have to point out that a signal on COAXIAL IN does not appear on OPTICAL OUT. Would I need to have two headphone amps or dig around at the rear of the unit to switch outputs to match inputs? Reply: The Coax and Optical outputs just looped out and intended to pass the respective signals to other digital devices to say PC input Expansion modules seem expensive. Q. ... the existence of the DD BluOS upgrade is highly attractive. ... But I don't see why it has to be so expensive. Other than, of course, that NAD has a captive market. Who is going to purchase a DD BluOS module except owners of compatible devices. For people who opted for less expensive analog gear, you have expensive streaming devices (M50) and DACs (M51). But I thought in buying the C390DD at a pretty hefty up-front cost I might anticipate savings on upgrades in the future. To be honest, this really makes me feel ripped off and taken advantage of. I never thought I would feel that way about NAD gear. Reply: It is easy to get to 95% with software, but the last 5% can take far, far longer to achieve. In addition NAD must license and pay for all the technology included and test and certify safety compliance for all major markets. We have an entire team of engineers that just test every possible use case looking for bugs – and this must be repeated for every software release. There are over 1 million lines of code in BluOS that have been written and must be maintained. We also have a very good track record for adding features and functionality to BluOS free of charge. Features like multi-room synchronization without drift, gapless playback, support for all major codecs, true High Resolution Audio capability, integration of many music services, Apps for control on a wide range of 3rd party devices all have costs to develop that must be recovered in the retail price or we would not be able to stay in business. My Counter: And so I am buying a DD-BluOS module. Bluesound looks fantastic! There is a $US300 option to replace the USB card with a more capable one, but no special deal for current owners. Q. According to online resources, the C390DD comes with one MDC module, namely "the DD USB 1 for USB interface" (C 390DD Direct Digital Powered DAC Amplifier - NAD Electronics). According to this PDF, http://www.nadelectronics.com/img/static/MDC-Matrix.pdf there is a USB 2.0 module for the C390DD. Searching for "DD-USB" on the NAD website turns up nothing, but searching the web for "DD USB 2.0 +nad" turns up nadddusb2 NAD DD USB 2.0 - DACS and Transports showing the module available for $300 Two questions: 1. Is there or is there not a USB 2.0 module for the C390? 2. Is there a trade-in option that allows a current C390DD owner to upgrade to Asynchronous USB 24/192 at a discount? (Yes, how much? No, why not?) Note that I the bolded USB 24/192. The one that comes in the C390 is max 24/96 Reply: Please be advised that there is a USB 2.0 module for the C390DD, it is $300USD MSRP, but there is no trade in/up program. The room EQ capability is rudimentary at best. When I bought the C390 in Feb. 2012, the room EQ provision was not yet available. I was anticipating something like Odyssey. Instead, I get 6 FLAC files and a manual procedure for listening, possibly with an SPL meter, and adjusting 6 fixed low frequencies. I use Room Equalization Wizard (REW, a very helpful, if complex, free software tool) to calculate appropriate settings and enter them at the C390 front panel. Works, but not up to expected level of sophistication. As I said in another exchange with NAD, Well, there you have it folks. I think NAD is a purveyor of quality analog gear struggling a bit with the end-user implications of digital. If I were to advise them, I would say "give the C390DD to your stable mate Bluesound; they'll probably know more about how to deal with it". I hope this draws some feedback ... it took a while to get it all out. Does anybody else feel the same way about the C390?

Will do. Being new to this forum, I had not realized that I need to subscribe to the thread to get updates. Fortunately I came back and found your reply. I'm going to post another entry here outlining some recent experiences. Cheers!

Hello all. I'm new as a poster on this site. I've had a C390DD since early 2012 and enjoy it greatly as the focal point of a 2.1 setup. Speakers are Axiom M80 V2 and SVS 12 sub. Been playing around with a PC laptop running Jriver media center USB to NAD. Also a Raspberry Pi B+ with HiFiBerry Digi+ coax to the NAD. USB won't do 24/196 and I cannot get the Pi to do it either, although it's supposed to work. Today I decided to bite the bullet and order the DD-BluOS module. Wish me luck