I have been researching DACs for some time now and find it very interesting how many of them offer the USB and 24/96 but how few of them offer 24/96 through USB. Lets start a list of DACs that can do 24/96 over their USB connection. Please add to the list as you see fit because I only know about 1% of them.
1. Benchmark DAC1 USB
2. Empirical Audio Spoiler USB tube DAC
3. Wavelength Audio Crimson
4. E-MU 0404 USB 2.0
- Chris
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Chris C.
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Re: 24 bit / 96 KHz USB DAC List
Chris is correct (suprising!) in that many of the USB units seem limited to 48 KHz. There ARE a few 24 bit / 192 KHz units out there too though! - One quick way to scan around for USB DAC's is to surf to Musician Supply websites. Once you find something you are interested in, go do more research at the manufacturer's website. Here is one of my favorite online suppliers: Sweetwater Sound:
( http://www.sweetwater.com/c695--USB_Audio_Interfaces )
Another would be ( http://www.musiciansfriend.com )
I have never had any problems dealing with either of these companies. Great service from both. There are MANY other sites out there too ... Have some fun!
markr
"There are only two kinds of people: Those who understand binary and those who don't"
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Hey markr - what's this
Hey markr - what's this (surprising!) business all about? I do my research :-)
- Chris
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Chris C.
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OOPS
I need a proofreader! Sorry, I chose a bad position for the placement of the " (surprising!) " portion of that post *LOL* . I MEANT that it was surprising that given that there are so many varieties of these out there, that so few of the USB DACs do more than 48 KHz sampling rate. _NOT_ that it was surprising that you were correct! That is what I get for posting first thing in the "morning".
Note to Everyone: please do your homework thoroughly when purchasing one of these units ( don't get in a holiday buying tizzy ) . It never hurts to ask the: "what are my options if I don't like the way it SOUNDS?" question when you order it - The two sites I posted are good about exchanges - I am sure that there are other good ones, AND bad ones out there too. ---come to think of it, your local music store (or national chain, like Guitar Center or Sam Ash, etc.) might have some demo units around the store too! Lucky you, if you live near Sweetwater Sound ( I THINK they have a 'brick and mortar' store......).
markr
"There are only two kinds of people: Those who understand binary and those who don't"
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Well I don't want to crap on
Well I don't want to crap on this thread, but I am not ready to list a new topic on my own. The more I learn about the concept of replacing my CD/SACD players with one of my older Macs, the more frustrated/neurotic I become.
The question about DACs looms high in my list of priorities, though. As an audiophile veteran of more than 40 years, I would be reluctant to dispense with my highly modified CD player until I was convinced that the DAC I select is capable of reproducing vivid, natural sound equivalent to what I'm now getting. Conventional wisdom seems to prefer a few brands, of which the Benchmark seems to be at or near the top of everyone's list. At the same time, I recognize that the audio companies that have already begun to produce USB DACs add a little snake oil to their marketing. With units ranging in price from less than $100 all the way up into the mid- to- high thousands, one quickly realizes that you might be paying more for the sizzle than the steak.
The issue of 48 versus a higher sample rating may not be all that important to me since my personal goal is to archive about 1000 of my favorite CDs. Since the majority of these are of the original 16-bit variety (along with a very few HDCD oddities), my belief is that I would rather have a DAC that does 44.1 as best it can be done instead of one that's versatile enough to play back something I don't have.
Having said all that, I need to ask a question that deals with connecting the DAC to the home audio system. The consensus is that having the computer in one's main listening room introduces an unacceptable noise level. I see only two solutions to this: connecting the DAC to the audio system with a wireless device, or using an exceptionally long USB cable. Am I right about this? If so, can anyone tell me if there is a wireless device that can feed something like the Benchmark without imposing any sound degradation? If not, what is the longest that a USB cable can be?
Steve in Baton Rouge
Posts: 2054
Hey Steve
I think DACs are just like the rest of the audiophile equipment out there. Some is $100 and some is $100,000.
The sampling rate may not be that important to you, but I think if you spend a few thousand dollars it would be wise to have this capability. I do follow you line of thinking about getting one that does 44.1 at its best, but I don't think you have to chose between this and one that does 24/96. I guess we'll have to wait and see on this though. I am certainly no expert, but I don't think adding the 24/96 capability to a hi-end DAC would degrade 44.1 performance as long as there is no upsampling being done to 44.1 music. Again, just my opinion.
About noise level: There are many options here. The wireless devices are perfect for this. I would just use them as a transport and connect an external DAC. The long USB cable option can be done but the length limitation may stop you. Here are the specs from usb.org:
Q1: How long of a cable can I use to connect my device?
A1: In practice, the USB specification limits the length of a cable between full speed devices to 5 meters (a little under 16 feet 5 inches). For a low speed device the limit is 3 meters (9 feet 10 inches).
Q2: Why can't I use a cable longer than 3 or 5m?
A2: USB's electrical design doesn't allow it. When USB was designed, a decision was made to handle the propagation of electromagnetic fields on USB data lines in a way that limited the maximum length of a USB cable to something in the range of 4m. This method has a number of advantages and, since USB is intended for a desktop environment, the range limitations were deemed acceptable. If you're familiar with transmission line theory and want more detail on this topic, take a look at the USB signals section of the developers FAQ.
Q3: How far away from a PC can I put a USB device?
A3: With the maximum of 5 hubs connected with 5m cables and a 5m cable going to your full speed device, this will give you 30m of cable (see section 7.1.19 for details). With a low speed device, you will be able to get a range up to 27m, depending on how long the device's cable is. With a straightforward cable route, you will probably be able to reach out 25m or so from the PC.
Another option is to use a fanless or little PC (see the forum discussion) because the sound is almost inaudible. I lean towards using a MacBook because they are real quiet, you can connect it right to you DAC with a short cable USB or S/PDIF, and you have a monitor right there if you need it. Many external disks are very quiet as well. You can also connect NAS to your wireless router which puts your disks, presumably, outside your listening room. These are only a few of the available options, many of which I may not even be aware of. I am really interested to hear what you are thinking of doing because many of our readers are in the same boat or have already done something similar.
- Chris
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Chris C.
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To answer your question,
To answer your question, here are my thoughts on this project so far. Unlike many audiophiles, Chris, my budget is limited by the fact that I'm retired and living on a fixed retirement income. So, the money I can budget for this project is, of necessity, limited more than most others considering this possibility.
Given that, I'd like to use my older Mac Mini as the music server. But that, of course, means that I'd need to have a display sitting out in the LR, reducing the WAF (wife acceptance factor). I could store the Mini in a hall closet about 5 - 8 feet from the LR, then connect the video cable to the monitor when needed and store the display in the closet when the system is not in use. I haven't investigated how long a video cable can be, but I suspect this is not an issue. I've been using a Bluetooth KB & mouse with this Mini since the beginning. AFAIK this should be satisfactory to connect to the Mini in the closet.
I will be buying two large external hard drives, then mirror them so that I can have a backup. I had thought about network drives for this purpose for a while, but these are probably not as reliable (for my purposes) and they are certainly more expensive. A pair of terabyte drives is probably what I will use. Since I have a collection of more than 2000 CDs, it will be hard enough to decide what to eliminate, so smaller drives wouldn't make sense to me. If the Mini works well in the closet, I won't be faced with buying a fanless enclosure, so I would be able to select two less costly, but appropriate, boxes for the drives.
That leaves the DAC, and, maybe, a handheld device that would eliminate the need for the display in the LR. With so many forums with such disparate information is where my bewilderment comes into play. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I'm skeptical about 95% of the reports about DACs I've read, but I understand that most are well-meaning. (As an anecdote, back in 1969 I moved to a new city and was curious about reasonably-priced places to eat. When I checked into the hotel on the first day there, I asked the desk clerk where I could buy the best steak in town. She pointed out the window behind me to a restaurant across the street and said, "Most folks tell me that Bonanza serves the best steak they ever tasted." Maybe so.)
I'd like to keep my expense for this project to ~ $2500. The drives will take about a 40% of that, and I plan to buy an external optical drive (~$100) so as to keep the Mini's (brand new) internal drive untouched. The 60% left could be spent on the DAC and on any plausible wireless devices that would eliminate the need for long, unsightly runs of wire from the closet to the living room.
The hope is that everyone here will chime in to warn me of mistakes/disappointments that this setup would bring me.
Posts: 2054
Hey Steve - This is very
Hey Steve - This is very do-able. I certainly don't have unlimited funds either and I actually enjoy putting together solutions that are challenging instead of just buying "the best" and assembling it. I am with you 100% about the reviews on DACs and any other equipment. That is why I am limiting my personal reviews of products on the site. How helpful is a review that says the highs were thin but solid. That only means something to the writer. I definitely have some ideas and I too hope to hear from others on this. I would like to direct some users from other forums that really don't discuss this, but the moderators have really come down on me for this. I am certainly not attempting to take viewers away, but this is how it works I guess.
Anyway, I will post my thoughts in a little while. I just took delivery of a Benchmark DAC1 USB about 15 minutes ago and I have some listening to enjoy. Talk to you in a bit.
- Chris
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Chris C.
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My Proposed System
Steve - Here is what I would do if I were you.
Existing Mac Mini
Cost: $0
For a display what I would do is use a remote desktop application like ScreenRecycler or VNC to control your Mac Mini from another Mac somewhere else in your home. I am guessing once you rip all your CDs you will not be ripping as much. When you get a new CD put it in the Mini's external CD drive and then remote control it from your other Mac to run your ripping software.
Cost: $25
Another option here is to use software like netTunes that allows you to remotely control iTunes only. This is pretty slick and was designed for this exact situation. Cost is only $20.
Disk space and backup - I would buy a BUFFALO DriveStation Quattro. THis gives you 1 terabyte of disk mirrored (RAID 1) or 2 TB (RAID 0) but that doesn't meet your requirement for backing up.
Cost: $750
For your optical drive I would honestly use the internal Mac drive, but your requierment is an external and there are many options there.
Cost: ~$100
DAC - I thijnk this is the most important piece. I highly recommend the Benchmark DAC1 USB.
Cost: $1275
Total cost: $2,150
This leaves you with $350 to purchase a remote to control iTunes.
There are of course hundreds of options other than this proposed solution. It is just what I would do given the requirements.
- Chris
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Chris C.
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usb DAC
Here are some other usb DACs I discovered.
This one has a very warm sound, upsamples and uses the Bur-brown chip:
http://www.psaudio.com/products/digital_link_iii.asp
Then Scott Nixon goes for the straight through- minimal signal path approach with this great little tube DAC:
http://www.audioreview.com/USBTDcrx.aspx
http://www.scott-nixon.com/dac.htm
The very high end USB DAC from Bel Canto:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/bcddac3/dac3.html
And Finally, the USB receiver from Outlaw Audio- the world's biggest soundcard:
http://www.outlawaudio.com/reviews/reviews_990.html
Posts: 2054
Thanks jspar7
The Bel Canto DAC3 is going to be updated to support 24/96 natively over USB very soon.
The PS Audio unit intrigues me, but I am not sure about all the upsampling. I have heard good and bad things about it.
I have heard good things about the Scott Nixon products, but they get no points in the looks department. Fortunately most of us care more about sound quality.
I was unaware of the Outlaw product. For $900 it does quite a few things. I am interested in hearing if anyone has experience with it.
If anyone has additional info on these or other DACs, post away!
- Chris
Computer Audiophile | Turn Down The Silence
Chris C.
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Computer Audiophile