What system would you build with a $5,000 budget?

[4est]

xyz:

Ha pretty testy it would seem!

I highly doubt that I would prefer conventional box speakers to any of my options on hand. Oh, and I do agree that you have been most helpful. I'll concede to your higher wisdom on the topic...

[chg]

This is not an attack on the Vandy 3a. I've heard the original over 10 years ago and considered purchasing back then. If you enjoy them, that's great.

Clearly xyz is just bored today and only interested in arguing.

Thank you for taking every sentence, twisting it around, giving your own interpretation, and taking everything completely out of context. I've got better things to do than argue over an opinion, but I suppose I will address a few of your comments.

"As mentioned in my earlier reply, priority should be;

1) Speakers
2) Source
3) Amp
4) Cables"

Wrong. With the exception of cables at #4, choices 1, 2 and 3 are all equal. Mess one piece up and the whole system is bad. Thats just common sense.

Really? You've never seen very high end speakers successfully mated to modest integrateds, or cd players? First, of course everything matters and the better the component the better the result, but we're dealing with a budget here. It was only my opinion that best results (within a modest budget) can be had EVEN with modest components with importance put on the speaker. Just a few examples: I've owned speakers from the Focal Utopia line hooked to a $1k integrated (I even connected a $500 Cambridge integrated) and it sounded very good. I could live with it, happily. But, if I want clean sound at higher volumes, better dynamics, better etc., etc., of course a better amp will do those things better. Example 2: Not long ago, I was at my local dealer looking to demo the Wilson Sophia 3. The dealer said, "hey, you want to hear it with the $1,600 Naim Nait 5i (that was nearby), it sounds good enough." It did sound very good with this modest amp. I'm sure the dealer didn't want to ruin a potential sale by demoing the Sofia with a modest amp, which according to you, would have made "the whole system bad". Another example: Here's a review of an $1k Odyssey amp where Alon Wolf says, “I’ve been using the Khartago in the factory for years,” said he, “to test loudspeakers. It isn’t a Solution 700, but it’s…good enough.” So, I guess you better email Alon and tell him that "all are equal". And, that he must lack common sense to be testing his $25k-$100k speakers with such a modest amp. How about cd players and dac's? You've never seen $1k cd players that perform perfectly well in multi-buck systems? Rega Apollo, MF V3, various Marantz come to mind. I've seen one CA member here using a $1500 dac with his Magico's.

TAS 195: Odyssey Audio Khartago Stereo Amplifier | AVguide

In my experience, the above examples have not been the same with budget speakers. Anytime I have used a lower priced speaker I've been unhappy, no matter the level of gear they're hooked to. A good example was when I heard the Evolution Acoustics demo room. They had they're $2k monitors hooked to over $100k worth of equipment. While this setup made the $2k speakers sound as good as possible, they still sound, to me, like a $2k budget speaker. There was no getting around the speakers limitations. I would have easily chosen a high end monitor with budget components over this system any day. The lesson: Don't buy high dollar speakers, or you'll be ruined for all others.

Also, you forgot the preamp and thats usually the hardest peice to get right.

Are you trying to infer that I don't know what a preamp is? We're dealing with a $5k budget. I would assume that most readers' realize, when I say amp, I'm referring to an integrated. You think separates are a good option in a $5k system?

"You will see the most significant improvement in speakers as price goes up." I don't even know what to say to that one, other than its a childish statement and leaves me speechless. There is so much out there to prove that statement wrong, I could literally write a book on the subject.

"Source is next, but there are some very decent dac's in the <$1k range." As stated above, source is not next, but equal. The rest of the statement is OK.

"Amps, IMO, are last in the price/performance scale. You can get some very nice sounding amps in the $1k+ range." The only credit I can give you there is that you admit this is your opinion. As for being last on the price/performance; simply not true. As for nice sounding amps in 1k+ range, I believe that to be true; in general.

Equal in price/performance ratio???

So, you think a $1k dac performs as well ,comparatively, as a pair of $1k speakers. I don't think you understand the concept of price/performance ratio.

Difference in quality between;

$1k speaker vs. $5k speaker (significant)
$1k DAC vs. $5k DAC (less significant)
$1k amp vs. $5k amp (slightly less significant)
$10 cable vs. $500 cable (less significant; some say no difference)

I didn't think I needed to state the obvious, but for you: The above is not always the case, but in general. Yes there are junk speakers costing $10k and there are very good $2k speakers.

"$4-5k monitor speaker will give you near world class refinement." Great. You're leaving out 2 things, though. 1. How do you judge world class refinement? 2. What speaker? Just buy anything for $4-5k?

I think I listed the speakers I was referring to already. I added some clarification for you:

Focal 1008BE (considered the new/old Utopia)
Sonus Faber Auditor Elipsa (same drivers found in the $20k SF Elipsa)
Rockport Mira Monitor (similar drivers used in some of Rockports best)
Egglestonworks Isabel (same drivers found in the $100k Ivey model, used by Bob Ludwig)
Dynaudio Special 25 (driver from the Evidence line/esotar tweeter from the Confidence line)
B&W 805D (same drivers found in the reference $24k 800D, I believe still used at Abbey Road Studio)

These are not what you would consider world class drivers??? Sorry you don't understand what I meant by the term world class resolution. Maybe if you had been familiar with the term, you wouldn't have had such a tough time understanding my opinions to the OP.

"I usually take forever researching, learning, testing, before I buy." I don't know if I believe that, but if you are having trouble picking good audio equipment, I would ask davidl10. He seems to know what he is doing.

Of course he knows what he's doing, according to you, he chose Vandersteen, the only speaker you approve of.

All I'm saying, is that I have heard and prefer systems with very good speakers and modest components (when budget constraints are involved). Anytime I've tried budget speakers, I can always hear the compromises in the speaker. The speakers that I mentioned above have the transparency, resolution, refinement that is important to me. That was only my opinion to the OP!

OK everyone. Keep all experiences and opinions to yourself, unless those opinions involve love for Vandersteen and being cheap, or xyz will get upset.

[chg]

I'm editing myself from above:

$1k DAC vs. $5k DAC (less significant)
$1k amp vs. $5k amp (slightly less significant)

Reverse order. Should read:

(slightly less significant)
then
(less significant)

[chg]

But in order to get best results with Vand, you need electronics that can fully take advantage of the speakers design. I think Ayre does that better than anything else I've heard. That's why I don't agree with your post. You are basing it on future upgrades of amps and speakers. I'm not. What I'm saying is that the Ayre/Vand combo is such a good match, I don't think you need to upgrade. (At least not for a long time).
That said, I still recommend the Ayre. Its more money but I feel that the gain in sound quality is very big and well worth the money.

You do realize that the lowest priced Ayre is $3,500 plus tax = around $3,750; and he will not find any dealer discount on Ayre. So, nearly 4/5 of the original $5k budget on a 60watt amp? That's a good recommendation!

"Then, you upgrade components around the speakers." Dosen't apply here. OP is getting the right stuff to begin with and will be listening to his system, not upgrading it.

You criticize me for recommending future upgrades around the speaker, but you made the same statement earlier.

What I like best is that you can keep upgrading your electronics and not outclass the speaker.

I suppose the electronics upgrade idea only applies to Vandersteen owners'.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm not a "Status Symbol" audiophile. I go by sound quality and build quality only. If other people want to go out and spend big money on names and trends, thats fine. Its their money and their business. On a personal note, I do think that kind of spending does the high end audio community no good. It changes peoples perceptions on how to allocate their resources to achieve good sound. There's no better example than my own best friend. I know a lot more about audio than he does yet he had to go out and buy these big, expensive Krell amps. I told him he could get the Ayre amps that I have for a small fraction of the price, and get better sound, as well. Didn't listen. Same thing with the speakers. Spent 4x more than what the Vandersteens cost. At least he now has the names he's always wanted.

Did it ever occur to you that you may be wrong? Maybe your friend chose what he did, because he preferred the sound from the more expensive gear and he's not stuck on, only Vandersteen, or only low priced gear.

If you read the other replies, nearly all agree with the spend more on speakers, spend less on amp idea.


Regarding your reply to 4est and his ESLs;

Let me give you some advice: Get rid of your Generic $2000 speakers, buy a pair of Vandersteen model 2's for $2000

I would assume that the ESLs 4est mentioned, that you call "Generic", are likely some old Quad 57, or 63. That's great advice again xyz, get rid of one of the greatest speakers of all time for some Vandersteen.