Support your local brick and mortar store

[bluesman]

If a supplier ramps up to supply WalMart, it is not a difficult step to use those same facilities to do rapid drop shipping of product to smaller locations as well. Not with as deep a discount as WalMart is going to get, but with a much deeper discount than otherwise.

Although that's true, Paul, being able to buy small volumes at the same prices WalMart pays won't free them from the need to sell at prices close to WalMart's to capture the business. Most small independents can't survive on the operating margins generated by their limited volumes at prices that low. And their operating costs are a much higher percent of their total costs than are WalMart's (e.g. freight and maintaining demo stock). A high volume dealer may put one model on the floor for every 20 or 30 it sells, while a small local dealer may have to display one model for each 1 or 2 it sells. Just-in-time won't please a customer who can't see, feel and hear the product before buying it, as the internet lets you do the same thing for less money without wasting gas - and it arrives just as fast.

Only by providing enough in-house knowledge, service and enjoyment (or by filling a very unique niche) can a small vendor compete with the big boys.

David

[Paul.Raulerson]

Although that's true, Paul, being able to buy small volumes at the same prices WalMart pays won't free them from the need to sell at prices close to WalMart's to capture the business. Most small independents can't survive on the operating margins generated by their limited volumes at prices that low. And their operating costs are a much higher percent of their total costs than are WalMart's (e.g. freight and maintaining demo stock). A high volume dealer may put one model on the floor for every 20 or 30 it sells, while a small local dealer may have to display one model for each 1 or 2 it sells. Just-in-time won't please a customer who can't see, feel and hear the product before buying it, as the internet lets you do the same thing for less money without wasting gas - and it arrives just as fast.

Only by providing enough in-house knowledge, service and enjoyment (or by filling a very unique niche) can a small vendor compete with the big boys.

David

You have some good thinking there. I have seen instances where it did not play out that way though - so I don't know. There are a lot of options open to small vendors today to cut those overhead costs down to a fraction of what they may have needed to be 10 or 15 years ago.

Vendors will often supply lender gear in some cases, or provide a loaner. All of which is not instant for the customer, but then, it's part of that service.

-Paul

[Zakus]

Don't blame the B&M dealer, blame the Mfgr for allowing an internet vendor to de-value their product through aggressive discounting.

The internet vendor is a B&M specialist audio store albeit in another Australian state. They have moved their business model with the times to try an survive.

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Vendors will often supply lender gear in some cases, or provide a loaner. All of which is not instant for the customer, but then, it's part of that service.

I think this is part of the problem, but not all of it. But for whatever it's worth, everything you see at a brick and mortar is bought and paid for. No loaners. It isn't cost-effective for the vendor -- how many loaners would they have to have out? How many dealers could they support? Apparently, this isn't viable.

Magnepan is working on an alternative, dealer mediated, direct-from-the-vendor in-home money-back trials. It's interesting, but still, doesn't keep the dealer from having to maintain and invest in demo inventory -- but perhaps it'll eliminate the requirement for dealers to maintain so many current models on the floor.

I think the answer is stricter controls, unfortunately. Unless the vendor wants to go direct -- which will limit it's ability to scale, provide good service, or keep costs down -- they need their reseller channel to thrive. Which means they're going to have to crack down on "bad" dealers, limit internet sales, prohibit discounting, and the like. The dealer can then make a profit, stay in business, and off-load much of the support, maintenance, shipping, overhead and customer relations costs from the vendor.

The problem seems to be guys that discount, honestly. They gut the market. The vendors need to wean themselves off these guys -- but since they've already "gone there" and enjoyed whatever volume these guys have been able to move (and the fact that they're the only ones moving things in times of economic distress), isolating themselves from this income stream will mean starving -- until the reseller channel can rebuild and get healthy again, which would mean (hopefully) even more volume than before.

The challenge is surviving the gap. Everyone in the chain needs revenue to live and stay in business ... and how do you tell a vendor to tighten their belt "for the good of the industry" when their competitor isn't doing it? In fact, if that competitor is smart, they use their advantage of a continuous (if deflated) revenue stream to build market share through advertising, innovation/investment, and/or acquisitions. Which, obviously, only compounds and perpetuates the problems ....

[mayhem13]

There are a lot of options open to small vendors today to cut those overhead costs down to a fraction of what they may have needed to be 10 or 15 years ago.

-Paul

Care to elaborate?

[Paul.Raulerson]

Care to elaborate?

I already did - centralized distributors with quick ship for product providing group level discounts and availability to start. The effect of JIT inventory management is incredible in terms of cost management. Smaller staffs, quick access to centralized tech support mess less employee training and cost, and on and on.

I really don't agree that to be viable a B&M has to charge an excessive premium. That's the easiest way to stay viable of course, always depending of course, on customers actually buying something at that price.

I do agree that it is worth paying a little more to get access to some of that expertise, but that applies mostly to the $10K and above purchases. You walk into many stores and if all you want to buy is a couple hundred dollars worth of cable, you are treated like a waste of time. NOT at the good dealers, but at many more than you expect.

[realhifi]

You walk into many stores and if all you want to buy is a couple hundred dollars worth of cable, you are treated like a waste of time. NOT at the good dealers, but at many more than you expect.

Just curious how many times have you walked into a dealer to do as you are describing and how many dealers are you talking about? Also, what discount are you looking for at the store for the "couple of hundred dollars" sale and how much time are you hoping to spend discussing the cables in question.

[Paul.Raulerson]

Just curious how many times have you walked into a dealer to do as you are describing and how many dealers are you talking about? Also, what discount are you looking for at the store for the "couple of hundred dollars" sale and how much time are you hoping to spend discussing the cables in question.

Four in the past year, leading me to buy a couple cables off the net, and a couple more from my local dealer. (Cables they carried or were willing to order.)

Besides my local dealer, I found two other shops while taveling, that did not act that way even though I was a stranger.

I am constituionally unable to not ask for a discount, but I do that after I have already decided to buy the gear, even at list, and I say that up front before asking. And it depends upon the rapport they established. My local dealer offers something like 2 or 3 percent for cash, and I don't push them. I think they get bombasted sometimes, and are sensitive to the subject. Mores the pity, discounts are like tips in reverse, nobody should feel obligated to offer them. But even little ones greatly help to offset the annoying 8.5% sales tax here.

in terms of time, well it deprnds. If they are not busy, maybe 15 mins. if they are crazy busy, I will probably just come back when they are not. If I know exactly what I want, perhaps only a minute or two while paying for whatever. I use email with my local dealer so they can answer at their own time, when it is convienent. Then time talking is only aboubt being polite and enjoying the conversation, at a slow time for them if possible. Usually, that means 5 to 10 minutes, a couple of which are spent paying for things.
Paul

[bluesman]

If they are crazy busy, I will probably just come back when they are not.

That's one of the things that differentiates a good customer from the rest, Paul. Each of us deserves the same attention and consideration - and if someone else got there first, it's his (or her) turn. Many will leave in a huff complaining that no one payed any attention to them.

[Jud]

Just curious how many times have you walked into a dealer to do as you are describing and how many dealers are you talking about? Also, what discount are you looking for at the store for the "couple of hundred dollars" sale and how much time are you hoping to spend discussing the cables in question.

Back in the days when dinosaurs roamed the earth, B&M stores were plentiful, and I bought most of my audio equipment, this sort of thing (dealers ignoring you if you didn't indicate immediate interest in high-dollar items, or often even if you just didn't "look rich") was more common than not. In the process of visiting many B&M dealers in a 3-state area over a period of months, I found exactly two I'd consider doing business with, and most of the others short-circuited the process by making it evident they would not consider doing business with me (or if they would, they'd be doing me a tremendous favor by taking my money). One dealer, after I made the mistake of admitting I'd bought a pair of speakers at another store, for which I was interested in auditioning pre-amps and amplifiers, walked over to all his salespeople in turn and pointed me out, after which they all studiously ignored me.

Of the two I wound up doing more business with, one consistently had equipment that sounded better to me. I bought a few cables along the way from the other dealer, but nothing big. My father was a salesman for a good part of his life, so I always made sure I didn't waste anyone's time - if I was just buying cables, I auditioned them quickly, then bought them if I liked them and left. Nevertheless, the dealer from whom I'd only bought cables said to me after a year or so that it bugged him I hadn't bought anything big and expensive. I figured that was his right and his store, so I didn't go there any more.

The fellow who had the equipment that sounded better to me wound up getting pretty much all my business (and also becoming a lifelong friend), mostly just by being nice enough to treat me as a human being in the first place.

I think that's changed somewhat over the last 20 years, in part for better, in part for worse. For better: There are fewer dealers of any kind, B&M or online, who can act as if they are so exclusive that they can afford to turn away customers. For worse: There are also fewer dealers who can afford to take a lot of time giving you information about equipment or just shooting the breeze about audio. Efficient use of sales time counts, to the detriment of the kind of audio education the best B&M dealers once provided.

[REShaman]

Back in the days when dinosaurs roamed the earth, B&M stores were plentiful, and I bought most of my audio equipment, this sort of thing (dealers ignoring you if you didn't indicate immediate interest in high-dollar items, or often even if you just didn't "look rich") was more common than not. In the process of visiting many B&M dealers in a 3-state area over a period of months, I found exactly two I'd consider doing business with, and most of the others short-circuited the process by making it evident they would not consider doing business with me (or if they would, they'd be doing me a tremendous favor by taking my money). One dealer, after I made the mistake of admitting I'd bought a pair of speakers at another store, for which I was interested in auditioning pre-amps and amplifiers, walked over to all his salespeople in turn and pointed me out, after which they all studiously ignored me.

Of the two I wound up doing more business with, one consistently had equipment that sounded better to me. I bought a few cables along the way from the other dealer, but nothing big. My father was a salesman for a good part of his life, so I always made sure I didn't waste anyone's time - if I was just buying cables, I auditioned them quickly, then bought them if I liked them and left. Nevertheless, the dealer from whom I'd only bought cables said to me after a year or so that it bugged him I hadn't bought anything big and expensive. I figured that was his right and his store, so I didn't go there any more.

The fellow who had the equipment that sounded better to me wound up getting pretty much all my business (and also becoming a lifelong friend), mostly just by being nice enough to treat me as a human being in the first place.

I think that's changed somewhat over the last 20 years, in part for better, in part for worse. For better: There are fewer dealers of any kind, B&M or online, who can act as if they are so exclusive that they can afford to turn away customers. For worse: There are also fewer dealers who can afford to take a lot of time giving you information about equipment or just shooting the breeze about audio. Efficient use of sales time counts, to the detriment of the kind of audio education the best B&M dealers once provided.

You've described a complex of experiences which in part and in whole mirror my experiences with obvious exceptions. For me, the common denominator is entering a market with the best intentions and then having to adjust to what comes back at me especially that which is undeserved. My worst experience ever was at Lyric Hifi where I was eventually summarily dismissed by the co-owner who could not have been more rude and judgmental of me. He did not even ask for any particulars in case I should call back as he was not expecting me to. That was in their north of NYC store in White Plains. In their NYC store, the salesman commented how people from all over the world come to Lyric Hifi and only want to waste the stores time and try out equipment never intending to purchase that equipment. A veiled hint? I am sure it is not easy dealing with the Public and in particular with the equipment we are passionate about. Still, one can gauge pretty quickly as a salesperson how to best treat a new or a valued customer or turn a stranger into one.
Best,
Richard

[realhifi]

It appears that the bottom line in all of this is the systematic disappearance of what some refer to as "dinosaurs", the retail hifi shop. It also appears that some will bemoan their disappearance while others say good riddance. Every good thing eventually comes to an end and I think we are seeing that play out in city after city across the country.

PS. I think it's happening with art galleries and jewlers to a more or lesser degree also.

[DigiPete]

It appears that the bottom line in all of this is the systematic disappearance of what some refer to as "dinosaurs", the retail hifi shop. It also appears that some will bemoan their disappearance while others say good riddance. Every good thing eventually comes to an end and I think we are seeing that play out in city after city across the country.
. . .

I hear a lot of complaints, that people waste B&M sales people's time, and then buy everything online.
That must be for old school analogue equipment.

I find just the opposite with modern equipment related to DAC's, DSP and DAW's.
I find the information on equipment and combinations online, then I proceed to educate the B&M sales people (if interested, not always the case) and I buy the equipment in the shop as it is the same price as online.

Also, I gave up on hifi/audiophile shops here in Danish capital Copenhagen, as they know nothing or have no interest in my particular brand of audiophilia: tri-amped, high-res, digitally enhanced and surround.
Actually, any one of those traits are enough to throw them off.
Death's too good for them! Quote H2G2

I sounds like you ate actually doing better in the declining economy of the US.
I suppose the vastly higher purchasing power, health and education of the average Danes is triumphed by the much higher purchasing power of the top 5-10% americans.

I wonder if the audiophile community is thriving better in the US than Europe, or if it is just the old B&M shops hurting.
And what about digital audiofilia?
Europe do seems to have some of the more forward thinking companies in digital audiophile sound:

Denmark - Bang & Olufsen (Beolab 5)
Denmark - Digital Audio Denmark
Denmark - Dynaudio (XEO)
Denmark - Lyngdorf
Denmark . Steinway Lyngdorf
Denmark - Toccata Technology (acquired by Texas Instruments)
Finland - DSPeaker (well, high value)
Finland - Genelec
Norway - Audiolense
Norway - 2L / Lindberg Lyd
UK -Meridian

Am I just biased?
Probably, how did all the Danes otherwise creep in?

/rant end/

[mayhem13]

You are most clearly bias....and a few other things. Slick move trying to bury it in context though.....too bad us Americans aren't too stupid to pick up on it.

[The Computer Audiophile]

I find the information on equipment and combinations online, then I proceed to educate the B&M sales people (if interested, not always the case)...

Sad but true. I bet many CA readers have had the same experience.

[SeeHear]

Actually, Sound by Singer is still in business, although in a different location. I bought a dac from Andy in March. All in all a very good experience. Give him a call.

Second that - Andy has mellowed only a little, but dealing with him these days is very nice. I was very pleasantly surprised by how much I enjoyed visiting him and his new location. After spending about an hour buying a pair of $800 speakers; we spent another 45 minutes listening to the big Musical Fidelity amp and talking music.

Like Richard, I find Lyric to be less than accommodating on occasion. NYC area stores have always been a bit arrogant, in my experience. The worst has to be the "Salon" where the owner won't let you in the store unless you pay him $200 which he will then credit toward a purchase. This happened to me twice in two separate (several years apart too; less of an entrance fee then) attempted visits many years ago. About a month ago, because, according to Pioneer's website, they are the only dealer in the city, I called to see if I could come audition the new Pioneer streamer - same story, though now it's $200!. I know this sounds ridiculous, but I actually recorded him telling me this a couple of weeks ago...

[The Computer Audiophile]

Wow. $200 just to walk in the door?

[Paul.Raulerson]

Like Richard, I find Lyric to be less than accommodating on occasion. NYC area stores have always been a bit arrogant, in my experience. The worst has to be the "Salon" where the owner won't let you in the store unless you pay him $200 which he will then credit toward a purchase. This happened to me twice in two separate (several years apart too; less of an entrance fee then) attempted visits many years ago. About a month ago, because, according to Pioneer's website, they are the only dealer in the city, I called to see if I could come audition the new Pioneer streamer - same story, though now it's $200!. I know this sounds ridiculous, but I actually recorded him telling me this a couple of weeks ago...

Good luck with that! Won't get my business. He might get me in the store if he pays me, in advance, but not otherwise!

[mayhem13]

. The worst has to be the "Salon" where the owner won't let you in the store unless you pay him $200 which he will then credit toward a purchase...

Hmmmmmmmm.....i wonder if he's Danish?

[SeeHear]

Wow. $200 just to walk in the door?

Absolutely! I was stunned.

I'd be happy to share the audio clip if you're interested. And I can figure out how to get it out of my iPod.

[med_designer]

Hey all -

With the exception of my DAC, I purchased all of my equipment from my local dealer and I try to do this as often as possible - even with CDs. We had a number of great dealers in town till about the late 90s when it more or less whittled down to 1 or 2 B&M stores. One of these I do not really like all that much. They have some good lines like Wilson, Mark Levinson and McIntosh but they really do not want you to audition anything. I tend to feel this dealer only wants to do large custom homes with A/V budgets in in the 50K and up range and anyone else is just a pain to deal with.

The other dealer is very much like the type of dealer I started going to as a young guy looking to get into the audiophile game. The store is rather rustic but has a nice selection of equipment and a willingness to let you just sit and listen. I purchased all of my current gear, the Dynaudio Special 25’s and Octave 40se tube integrated from this local store. In fact I was able to purchase at a very fair price. So from my experience these dealers do exist we just have to search them out.

Also, I had a very positive experience with an on-line dealer who shipped me several pieces of gear to audition. This dealer did not require a card card or anything other than my word I would take care of it and send it back when we agreed upon. The only thing I had to pay for was the return shipping and insurance. I would have been happy to purchase from this dealer but in the end I choose the gear from my local dealer as it fit my tastes better. I offered to pay the shipping costs the dealer incurred in sending it to me but they declined.

In the end I wish there were one or two stores of the type I remember from my youth in each city. I guess these days are mostly behind us but my local dealer is someone i trust and will continue to support when they have the type of product I am looking for.

[REShaman]

Absolutely! I was stunned.

I'd be happy to share the audio clip if you're interested. And I can figure out how to get it out of my iPod.

Actually, even I know about him. Not recently. Years ago when he was only charging $75. I forget what the method of disseminating, oh, I believe there were articles about the pros/cons of implementing Salon's policy. I was never attracted to going there. Did not feel right. But that's his business.

Honestly, mayheim13, do not want to get on your bad side, but taking cheap shots at another member feels truly disrespectful. I do not say that in condemnation of you, rather, to ask you to reflect on your outcome in representing yourself this way. But that's your business.

Best,
Richard

[mayhem13]

Point taken.......but ignored. Sorry. American and proud of it. My family holds a long lineage of defending this country, and others....including a certain little kingdom that of not for the bravery of soldiers from my family and other Americans, would probobly be living a not so elitist lifestyle right now. Shame on Pete for not thinking before typing, or even burying such comments in an audio forum thread, and shame on you for pointing your finger my way, while not recognizing his inappropriate statements first. You being American as well, should also be concerned with Pete's lack of self control. Such context is completely inappropriate for CA or any other hobbyist forum. My responses while having no direct attack on Pete, was simply a reminder that I, an American found his statement offensive.

Later

[AudioDoctor]

You are most clearly bias....and a few other things. Slick move trying to bury it in context though.....too bad us Americans aren't too stupid to pick up on it.

You need to grow up.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Enough gentlemen.