Support your local brick and mortar store

[johnwilk]

At least they'll get access to some excellent health care, unlike millions of Americans.

[souptin]

Speaking of education, but more seriously, and more to the point in hand, I'd like to question the idea that the growth of on line retail and corresponding decline of high street retail is a shining example of capitalism working entirely for the greater good of us consumers.

Clearly it's another example of a failing business model, but, as with the other discussion here on CA re the music business, it gets more complicated the more you look at it. I doubt very much that unchecked market forces will fix things in a way that ultimately benefits the consumer and manufacturer rather than the middle men. But then I'm an evil British socialist so I would say that.

In the UK, part of the problem has been the extremely high rents and rates charged for retail space. So not a level playing field when compared to an online retailers warehouse (or, presumably, whorehouse if you live in Nevada - I bow to wgscott's superior knowledge in this area). The small hifi shops have tried to respond by becoming part of larger hifi chain stores, but this IME has been to the detriment of customer service.

My best guess is that, once our high streets have all but closed for business, we'll see the online giants move in, using their size and political influence to negotiate lower rent and rates. Already happens with Apple stores, Amazon keep threatening to do the same (and already have mini kindle stores in larger shops), and no doubt the delivery companies - delivery to homes where everyone is out to work being a problem - will be looking at the possibility of high street collection points. Not all of which sounds too bad, I have to say. I guess I'm just a bit wary of welcoming our new corporate overlords with too much enthusiasm.

[jhwalker]

People vote with their dollars. Although I buy almost all of my gear from a single local dealer, I do so mostly because of the service he provides. If he wasn't in business here, I wouldn't patronize any of the other local shops. It sounds nice to patronize locally for economic reasons, but that's not how the real world works. All buyers make their decisions based on their individual needs and preferences, not some charitable idea to save the local economy.

One aspect of going through local dealers and even a single dealer, is the flexibility a good customer can get from their dealer. Sometimes distributors and manufacturers get out of line. That's when a good local dealer can become an advocate for their customer and make sure the distributor/manufacturer takes care of their problem. I have cancelled orders, returned amps I didn't like and demoed numerous other gear I didn't buy. But my dealer doesn't mind because I've spent a lot money with him over the years and he knows I will likely continue to do so. IMO, it's much more important to have one really good dealer, than it is to shop locally. Hopefully you can get both. :-)

If you don't mind, could you identify your local dealer? I also live in Dallas and have not had any luck in identifying a local dealer who carries anything other than AVRs, flat screens, and commodity speakers :/

Feel free to PM me if you're not comfortable discussing in the forum.

[babybear]

If you don't mind, could you identify your local dealer? I also live in Dallas and have not had any luck in identifying a local dealer who carries anything other than AVRs, flat screens, and commodity speakers :/

Feel free to PM me if you're not comfortable discussing in the forum.

John,

Here are two dealers in the Dallas/Plano area that carry more than AVR's, commodity speakers, etc. Both of them are dealers for some very good gear.

Plano Texas :: Advanced Home Theater Systems ::

AudioConcepts

A good friend of mine has been a customer of Audio Concepts for 10 years and I can tell you that he does get great customer service from them.

Also, here is a link to a dealer in the Pflugerville area (just north of Austin) that also carries some great gear (and gives exceptional customer service).

Arnie

[babybear]

John,

Here are two dealers in the Dallas/Plano area that carry more than AVR's, commodity speakers, etc. Both of them are dealers for some very good gear.

Plano Texas :: Advanced Home Theater Systems ::

AudioConcepts

A good friend of mine has been a customer of Audio Concepts for 10 years and I can tell you that he does get great customer service from them.

Also, here is a link to a dealer in the Pflugerville area (just north of Austin) that also carries some great gear (and gives exceptional customer service).

Arnie

forgot the last link:

Our Products : VTL : Magico : TV Austin : Concept Electronics

[Jud]

People vote with their dollars. Although I buy almost all of my gear from a single local dealer, I do so mostly because of the service he provides. If he wasn't in business here, I wouldn't patronize any of the other local shops. It sounds nice to patronize locally for economic reasons, but that's not how the real world works. All buyers make their decisions based on their individual needs and preferences, not some charitable idea to save the local economy.

One aspect of going through local dealers and even a single dealer, is the flexibility a good customer can get from their dealer. Sometimes distributors and manufacturers get out of line. That's when a good local dealer can become an advocate for their customer and make sure the distributor/manufacturer takes care of their problem. I have cancelled orders, returned amps I didn't like and demoed numerous other gear I didn't buy. But my dealer doesn't mind because I've spent a lot money with him over the years and he knows I will likely continue to do so. IMO, it's much more important to have one really good dealer, than it is to shop locally. Hopefully you can get both. :-)

Yep, absolutely true. I think for me the point is to think a bit longer term rather than totally price-centric. You're not going to have a prayer of getting the sort of customer service and product selection you're talking about from the "big box" stores or big online concerns like Amazon, so even in circumstances where Best Buy or Amazon carries the same accessory for a few bucks less, it might pay me long term to patronize the local guy.

[REShaman]

Given the variety of perspectives and opinions on quality of health and education in these United (?) States, consider also the part a manufacturer can play in these scenarios. Of course, I have one to share that illustrates my additional perspective that in addition to a great/wonderful/supportive dealer when the manufacturer is suddenly thrust into the scenario because of circumstances, the quality of support and policies for product excellence is paramount.

I ordered two JL Audio F112 from a dealer I had not done business with before who appeared to be sent from Heaven. Until the new F112s arrived he had shipped directly to me. I was aghast when I began to unpack the F112s and discovered, by sheer good fortune as the sun came through my huge picture window that each high gloss black piano finish on the cabinets had spider swirls as if someone had taken an orbital (waxer?) to the tops. The dealer did his Dr. Jekyll/ Mr. Hyde routine to my astonishment. And refused not only to return my payment (which I did not ask him to do) but as regards the F112 to ship them to the manufacturer at my cost for them to determine what if anything would be done about it. Sorry for the long introduction.

Long story short, I realized the dealer (whether or not he passed 2 distressed F112 on to me or not) was not going to do anything for me. I felt like a mark. I had also purchased a Bryston Active crossover from him. Good customer? I called the President of JL Audio direct who had yet arrived that morning but his assistant was in and took my call. I sent her photographs of the spider swirls. In less than a week I had two brand new perfect F112 shipped directly to me with JL Audio handling the returns at the same time at their cost. The manufacturer could not have been more cooperative in satisfying my complaint. I was quite relieved. Needless to say, my relationship with the dealer was over.

I would include the intrinsic role manufacturer's play in the Brick&Mortar store relationship between dealer and customer as being just as important especially when unfortunate outcomes result (intentionally or otherwise) during the interplay with a dealer who practically disappears when responsibility is on the line.

If this is OT, my apologies. Worth sharing about manufacturers who stand by their product no matter what, when and how.

Best,
Richard

[orgel]

It is a fair opinion though. What prevents me from agreeing with it is twofold. First, and most telling, is that we already have a federalized school system; Congress has direct control over the D.C. School system. Consistantly bad results.

That's kind of a misrepresentation of what goes on with the District schools. The results have, in fact, not been consistently bad. Under the previous mayor (Adrian Fenty), when Michelle Rhee was the chancellor of DC schools, she achieved remarkable improvements, but unfortunately, both she and the mayor paid a political price for ruffling a lot of feathers (and that's what it takes to make dramatic changes in a troubled public school system).

Congress can interfere with the governance of the District in various ways (and they've done that with education, mostly recently by means of strange and constantly changing policies with respect to charter schools), but the DC school system is run locally and primarily funded locally. Admittedly, the DC schools are not the greatest, one big reason being that when affluent people who live in the District need to send their children to school, they either choose private schools (of which there are many good ones) or they move to Maryland or Virginia, where there are many good public school systems. (My daughter went to public school in Arlington, VA.)

Put me down with Prof. Scott on this one. I've always been troubled by the fact that children in, say, Alabama don't have the same educational opportunities as do children in, say, New York or California or even Virginia.

Back on topic for a moment, put me down with those who've had predominantly bad experiences with brick-and-mortar stores and predominantly good experiences with Internet-based stores (Vintage King, W4S, The Cable Company, even Audiogon). After pretty extensive listening and shopping around, I bought my speakers at a local hi-fi store, and I genuinely love the speakers, but I can't say I love the owner of the store. If there were a local store where I felt like the store personnel and I were on the same wavelength, I'd be happy to buy there and even pay a reasonable premium and sales tax, but I just haven't found such a place. I may be a socialist when it comes to education, but I'm all for establishing relationships with well-run local businesses. Failing that, though, I'm happy to deal with well-run Internet-based businesses -- As others have mentioned (and aside from what I consider a rather expensive return policy), W4S exemplifies how much value can be offered by selling direct via the Web.

--David

[REShaman]

.-- As others have mentioned (and aside from what I consider a rather expensive return policy), W4S exemplifies how much value can be offered by selling direct via the Web.

orgel


My experience as well including purchasing speakers locally and experiencing the same mediocre interface.

I have already identified WYRED 4 Sound as a manufacturer worthy of mention for great support and product excellence. Perhaps the expensive return policy is the result of a manufacturer having to place returns into "B" stock as the new component(s) once returned can no longer be sold as "new". Therefore, their 15% restocking fee. Whether one agrees or not that policy is fair/acceptable, it does provide for a trial/audition that adjusts for the change in classification of what would otherwise have been a new component. Fortunately, no charge for me was necessary. And companies like OPPO have repaired their products returned for repair after the warranty period expired without charge plus shipping to the manufacturer, which is fair.

Hence the addition of the manufacturer's Rome in the dealer/customer relationship which inured to everyone's benefit.

Best,
Richard

[new_media]

Well my favorite local dealer WAS Magnolia HiFi until they were assimilated by Best Buy. I don't have to tell you that shopping in the Magnolia section of Best Buy is not the same experience that shopping in the free standing Magnolia store used to be.

Independent record stores are obviously in the same dire straits as hifi dealerships. There is one independent record store in town that I will never return to because the markups are ridiculous and the owner/manager has been a complete jerk every time I have gone in there. Would much rather buy from eBay or Amazon than put up with poor customer service.

[REShaman]

Excuse the typo "Rome"was written as "role" but my iPad is so unreliable and changes words at will.
Best,
Richard

[REShaman]

Well my favorite local dealer WAS Magnolia HiFi until they were assimilated by Best Buy. I don't have to tell you that shopping in the Magnolia section of Best Buy is not the same experience that shopping in the free standing Magnolia store used to be.

Independent record stores are obviously in the same dire straits as hifi dealerships. There is one independent record store in town that I will never return to because the markups are ridiculous and the owner/manager has been a complete jerk every time I have gone in there. Would much rather buy from eBay or Amazon than put up with poor customer service.

I can appreciate what your experience states. In the past I have walked into Best Buy for something and was approached by a sales person and during discussions, I realized that I knew more about the product than s/he did including more higher end equipment and that was very discouraging. However, when I needed to return something brand new that was faulty out-of-the-box and someone came forward to make that easy for me, including Best Buy which replaced it, I was extremely grateful.

Also, I used to patronize a store in NYC, local for music where a particular salesman was so helpful in steering me to quality recordings that I did not have the depth of experience to know about but was able to immediately appreciate once played that I stopped going anywhere else, paying the slight up-charge typical of a smaller, independent store because I was grateful.

That was over two decades ago. Today, there are so many sources to help one find the better recordings that I no longer rely on someone's expert experience (ignoring discernment for the moment). It was back then worth every addition to the price. Today, I sort by quality whatever the price so I'll pay more for a better recording not because it's promoted as Hi-Res.
Best,
Richard

[AudioDoctor]

Given the variety of perspectives and opinions on quality of health and education in these United (?) States, consider also the part a manufacturer can play in these scenarios. Of course, I have one to share that illustrates my additional perspective that in addition to a great/wonderful/supportive dealer when the manufacturer is suddenly thrust into the scenario because of circumstances, the quality of support and policies for product excellence is paramount.

I ordered two JL Audio F112 from a dealer I had not done business with before who appeared to be sent from Heaven. Until the new F112s arrived he had shipped directly to me. I was aghast when I began to unpack the F112s and discovered, by sheer good fortune as the sun came through my huge picture window that each high gloss black piano finish on the cabinets had spider swirls as if someone had taken an orbital (waxer?) to the tops. The dealer did his Dr. Jekyll/ Mr. Hyde routine to my astonishment. And refused not only to return my payment (which I did not ask him to do) but as regards the F112 to ship them to the manufacturer at my cost for them to determine what if anything would be done about it. Sorry for the long introduction.

Long story short, I realized the dealer (whether or not he passed 2 distressed F112 on to me or not) was not going to do anything for me. I felt like a mark. I had also purchased a Bryston Active crossover from him. Good customer? I called the President of JL Audio direct who had yet arrived that morning but his assistant was in and took my call. I sent her photographs of the spider swirls. In less than a week I had two brand new perfect F112 shipped directly to me with JL Audio handling the returns at the same time at their cost. The manufacturer could not have been more cooperative in satisfying my complaint. I was quite relieved. Needless to say, my relationship with the dealer was over.

I would include the intrinsic role manufacturer's play in the Brick&Mortar store relationship between dealer and customer as being just as important especially when unfortunate outcomes result (intentionally or otherwise) during the interplay with a dealer who practically disappears when responsibility is on the line.

If this is OT, my apologies. Worth sharing about manufacturers who stand by their product no matter what, when and how.

Best,
Richard

I hate dealers like that, and have also had great experiences dealing directly with the company, and at times the principals themselves, when I contacted them. I am even friends with a certain companies sales/marketing guy and have had one hell of an offer from him in the past, that sadly I gave my word not to divulge, so I can't tell you what it was... Going back to my example of the local dealer and Rogue Audio. One of the company owners Mark, I can't remember his last name, answered the phone, listened to me explain the situation, and then offered to sell me a pair right there on the phone, and deliver them to the cabin. In my experiences, it is much more likely to get great service from the manufacturer themselves than the dealers.

[mayhem13]

Speaking of education, but more seriously, and more to the point in hand, I'd like to question the idea that the growth of on line retail and corresponding decline of high street retail is a shining example of capitalism working entirely for the greater good of us consumers.

Clearly it's another example of a failing business model, but, as with the other discussion here on CA re the music business, it gets more complicated the more you look at it. I doubt very much that unchecked market forces will fix things in a way that ultimately benefits the consumer and manufacturer rather than the middle men. But then I'm an evil British socialist so I would say that.

In the UK, part of the problem has been the extremely high rents and rates charged for retail space. So not a level playing field when compared to an online retailers warehouse (or, presumably, whorehouse if you live in Nevada - I bow to wgscott's superior knowledge in this area). The small hifi shops have tried to respond by becoming part of larger hifi chain stores, but this IME has been to the detriment of customer service.

My best guess is that, once our high streets have all but closed for business, we'll see the online giants move in, using their size and political influence to negotiate lower rent and rates. Already happens with Apple stores, Amazon keep threatening to do the same (and already have mini kindle stores in larger shops), and no doubt the delivery companies - delivery to homes where everyone is out to work being a problem - will be looking at the possibility of high street collection points. Not all of which sounds too bad, I have to say. I guess I'm just a bit wary of welcoming our new corporate overlords with too much enthusiasm.

You can't have it both ways.......cheaper prices to the consumer when used as a back door weapon against inflation is NOT sustainable. While rents and cost of business is consistently imcreasing yet wages remain unchanged, the economic equation answers that the cost of goods must too increase. For years the WORLD has been putting this off with the purchase of cheap goods from China and other SE Asian countries. At what point does everyone think things will tip? Worse, when it does tip and consumer purchasing declines not from lack of confidence bit lack of capital, what will happen to the Chinese economy. One might argue it's not my problem.....think again. If the Chinese tap of goods and technology suddenly dries up, countries like us and others who rely on Chinese goods are in crisis.

You absolutely have to look at the bigger picture.....inflation is predictable and inevitable. Everyone needs to wrap their heads around and accept it. The free lunch is expired.

[REShaman]

I hate dealers like that, and have also had great experiences dealing directly with the company, and at times the principals themselves, when I contacted them. I am even friends with a certain companies sales/marketing guy and have had one hell of an offer from him in the past, that sadly I gave my word not to divulge, so I can't tell you what it was... Going back to my example of the local dealer and Rogue Audio. One of the company owners Mark, I can't remember his last name, answered the phone, listened to me explain the situation, and then offered to sell me a pair right there on the phone, and deliver them to the cabin. In my experiences, it is much more likely to get great service from the manufacturer themselves than the dealers.

Absolutely, AudioDoctor!
As an example, and as you expressed, my 9.1 Atlantic Technology HT 450THX speaker system, the 452 Subwoofer suddenly turned silent. As I am know to do, I called the manufacturer and asked if they would let me "hand carry" to their offices in the state of MA about a 5 hour drive. Yes, they said, impressed that I was willing to do so. Leaving at 5:00 AM, I arrived around 10:00 AM and was met by the Sales Manager who took time to show me around and audition the latest speakers while they repaired my subwoofer. When I casually mentioned (as crazy as this may sound that I would love to have a 7.1 system) they offered me two slightly used surrounds on stands (expensive for a reduced price). Seeking to be diplomatic, I expressed a desire to purchase new, and in an instant, was offered brand new surrounds and stands for an exceptional price. Granted, newer models had already been marketed. They appreciated my perspective and my willingness to drive 5 hours just to get the subwoofer repaired which was done with care and expertise. I had a thoroughly wonderful experience and the Sales Manager took pains to insure I left satisfied and advantaged by their gracious offer which I practically accepted in a nanosecond. They were very gracious and always took my phone calls (only a few times) to patiently explain something or provide me with a way to replace a driver than after several years had a rupture.

As AudioDoctor expresses, some manufacturers just value us one at a time believing the rewards are worth the attention they give us. How that compares or contrasts to dealers, I am actually not going there as I am not distinguishing between either. Excellence of service and support at that level is invaluable. It would not be fair to hold a dealer to that "reach" as they do not have the access only the ability to represent and expedite. But foremost, it is the manufacturer who makes the dealer look good if that is how the channel pans out or who opens their facility to someone who cares enough to pursue their high quality of expertise.

How does one place a value on that level of care. And no need to denigrate any entity in between which/who doesn't have the facility to provide the same level of service.

As an aside, briefly, a top of the line Sony Beta player continually broke. I hand carried to their Mahwah facility in New Jersey such that I became friends with the repair man assigned to that model. When I could no longer countenance any further malfunctions, I called Sony and was passed off by a line person on staff who answers support calls. I realized they had no authority to do anything but "handle" me. One day I called their headquarters to ask to speak to the President of Sony USA. It was lunch time, and, to my surprise, a Japanese individual answered the phone and patiently listened to me. I asked if I could speak to the President and he identified himself as the President (really!). His secretary was out to lunch and he answered his own phone. I explained my history as a long time Sony customer and had asked for a replacement for a product that had broken 10 times in a year and a half. I had the nerve to ask for The Anniversary Edition, a very special Beta model, that line personnel told me was no longer manufactured and was clearly more expensive than my top of the line.

To make a long story short, the President of Sony USA was very sympathetic and acknowledged me for my loyalty and informed me I would be sent an Anniversay Edition (orange floating letters/commands on a lid that opened forward as if floating). When I said I had been told it is no longer available, he replied, don't worry, you will have one in two weeks delivered to my home. In two weeks, I received my Anniversary Edition that no longer existed. I still have it as a "work of art".

These are experiences for end users such as we are who are fortunate enough to be treated as such that one can not compare to any normal mode of a good business relationships. These are examples of someone with the authority who values a simple customer with treatment reserved for someone special. Me! I have more examples but my time is up for this post.

Pardon my excess. Not my enthusiasm for the pursuit of excellence from manufacturer or dealer or...
Best,
Richard

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I'm kinda surprised by the anger and vitriol for the brick and mortar dealer. Not that I haven't had my share of bad experiences -- some rather similar to those listed here. But I've also had experience with similar shenanigans from online retailers. It's not a matter of B&M vs online, it's a matter of "good dealer" vs "loser". Just not sure you can paint them all with the same brush.

Personally, I think the constriction in the dealer market has been catastrophic for high-end audio. These are the guys, love them or hate them, who actually do know more than you do about what goes with what. No amount of opinion collection and/or forum surfing is ever going to replace the real-life/real-world experience of that dude who's been building systems for 30 years. Sure, they may not know everything about computer audio. But what they do know is about the rest of your system -- and more importantly, that it's a system, and not all about the source (or the component, or the speaker, or the room, &c).

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think we're the problem. We, the consumer, that is. We're kinda wrecking things with our OCD around pricing and forgetting that there's real value in consultation -- and that that consultation and deep knowledge is actually worth something. Specifically, that knowledge can keep us, the ADD consumer, from making a series of unnecessary purchases. Based on this on supposition, I suspect that the demise of the B&M will actually cost us more money in the long term, even as we save pennies here and there. Penny wise, pound foolish, and all that.

That said, times have changed and the 21st century dealer really needs to wise up and figure out a way to provide real, obvious and tangible value.

I have a screed on all this called: "21st Century Audio Dealer: The Consultant and the Retailer".

Potshots welcomed.

[mayhem13]

No Potshots...I agree....and I think you expressed my point in starting this thread better than I did.......thanx

[maelob]

I recently bought the mini maggies from audio connection in nj and now I know why they've been around for a long time. The customer service was awesome. As a first time consumer I felt really welcomed and owner John rutan gave me a tour of his store and let me audition some amazing speakers. First time I heard some vandersteens and I felt in love with them lol. Wish all the shops were like that.

[DigiPete]

Smart solutions are good solutions.
Smart solutions will automatically match the right equipment or calibrate it to fit.

The needed information may be imbedded in IT solutions or actual rigs, but why would anyone think it efficient or desirble to have it hand carried by an installer or a B&M shop?
Analogue solutions will be mis-matched and waste money and look increasingly stupid.

As a modern consumer and accomplished engineer i expect quality products to be:

- High volume mass produced
- Modular
- FAT tested and quality approved
- Low failure rate
- Smart topology
- Self optimizing
- Cost efficiently produced and distributed

I will thus try to avoid:

- Small volume productions
- Costum intallations
- Hand and/or costum build appliances

I tend to go for superior sound rather than romantic stories and personalized service.
I therefore find most analogue audiophile equipment overpriced and of dubious quality.
This is particularly true for square speakers, passive X-overs and analogue cables.

You could spend some of the savings on an acoustic room consultant and treatment!

Support smart solutions and let the dinosaurs die in peace!

[wgscott]

Excuse the typo "Rome"was written as "role" but my iPad is so unreliable and changes words at will.
Best,
Richard

They were kind enough to include that delightful feature in OS X 10.7 as well.

[esldude]

Smart solutions are good solutions.
Smart solutions will automatically match the right equipment or calibrate it to fit.

The needed information may be imbedded in IT solutions or actual rigs, but why would anyone think it efficient or desirble to have it hand carried by an installer or a B&M shop?
Analogue solutions will be mis-matched and waste money and look increasingly stupid.

As a modern consumer and accomplished engineer i expect quality products to be:

- High volume mass produced
- Modular
- FAT tested and quality approved
- Low failure rate
- Smart topology
- Self optimizing
- Cost efficiently produced and distributed

I will thus try to avoid:

- Small volume productions
- Costum intallations
- Hand and/or costum build appliances

I tend to go for superior sound rather than romantic stories and personalized service.
I therefore find most analogue audiophile equipment overpriced and of dubious quality.
This is particularly true for square speakers, passive X-overs and analogue cables.

You could spend some of the savings on an acoustic room consultant and treatment!

Support smart solutions and let the dinosaurs die in peace!

Very well put Digipete!

[realhifi]

When you have stores like Target and Best Buy bemoaning "showrooming" you know there is a real problem. A start on changing this would be to have all online sales susceptible to sales tax of the state the merchandise is going to. That's a start.
If the large stores like these are feeling the pinch just imagine what small, decent hifi shops are feeling.

Target Sends Letter Vendors Asking for Help to Combat 'Showrooming' Comparison Shopping - WSJ.com

[wgscott]

A start on changing this would be to have all online sales susceptible to sales tax of the state the merchandise is going to. That's a start.

We've already established that this is Un-American Socialism.

[REShaman]

They were kind enough to include that delightful feature in OS X 10.7 as well.

Quite right, Scott! I often find the same type-of-typos when "composing/sending" from Mac Pro/Mini, some of which I catch, others I don't. So when in Role do as the Roleman's do.
Best,
Richard

[wgscott]

I've decided for now on I am only going to purchase stereo equipment assembled in factories owned and run as anarchosyndicalist cooperatives, and purchase from dealers whose businesses are run in such a way that there is no hierarchy and everyone has equal ownership and is paid the same, and instead of trying to push products, the sales people engage in establishing consensus of all parties involved in the transaction.