Support your local brick and mortar store

[mayhem13]

After reading an article claiming that over 20% of hi-Fi shops closed their doors in 2011, I decided to investigate a few years more and found that over 50% of retail stores have closed since 2008. Given the nature of this hobby where auditioning gear is paramount, this doesn't bode well for us. Companies that sell direct only worsen the problem, but since there's fewer dealers available what are they to do?

Next time you're in the market for a piece of gear and there's a local store available, maybe stop on in and make the purchase or if the line isn't carried by that dealer, consider an alternative that is. We're not in a bad spot yet as hobbyists, but of this trend continues surely we as a collective will suffer. You could make the arguement for eTailers having a good return policy, and auditioning at home being the better option, BUT please consider that the Domestic economic system absolutely DEPENDS on the success and survival of the small business. And if you're dealer is selling with what you feel is an unfair markup, consider the overhead costs as well as the level of service your local B&M offer to you and the hobby. Surely this trend will cause the demise of even more manufacturers as well, creating even further unemployment. Thanx for reading.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Mayhem - Very good points.

[REShaman]

After reading an article claiming that over 20% of hi-Fi shops closed their doors in 2011, I decided to investigate a few years more and found that over 50% of retail stores have closed since 2008. Given the nature of this hobby where auditioning gear is paramount, this doesn't bode well for us. Companies that sell direct only worsen the problem, but since there's fewer dealers available what are they to do?

Next time you're in the market for a piece of gear and there's a local store available, maybe stop on in and make the purchase or if the line isn't carried by that dealer, consider an alternative that is. We're not in a bad spot yet as hobbyists, but of this trend continues surely we as a collective will suffer. You could make the arguement for eTailers having a good return policy, and auditioning at home being the better option, BUT please consider that the Domestic economic system absolutely DEPENDS on the success and survival of the small business. And if you're dealer is selling with what you feel is an unfair markup, consider the overhead costs as well as the level of service your local B&M offer to you and the hobby. Surely this trend will cause the demise of even more manufacturers as well, creating even further unemployment. Thanx for reading.

I appreciate your perspective. In actuality, I had two awful experiences with local dealers compared to others online or by phone. While I am happy to support a local dealer, finding one has not been a joyful experience. As a colleague of mine said about surgeons (paraphrasing): Who cares if he's likable as long as s/he a great surgeon. The nicest experience I had was at Sound by Singer and they are out of business.

Examples within the last year: One, I called a local (hi-end) dealer three times speaking to the owner's assistant each time and was completely ignored by the owner who one meets with by appointment and who never followed through. Two: I had the absolute worst experience when I auditioned some equipment at Lyric HiFi at the White Plains, NY store, near where I live. The co-owner was the rude, disrespectful and arrogant and dismissed me in every way.

Whereas, my dealings with Wyred 4 Sound's support from both Clint and EJ, after ordering on line, was one of the best. Same with Oppo in California. Even JL Audio in Florida. And with The Cable Company where I was treated as a valued customer over the phone and with the same person each time which is the way I prefer it especially when there's a connection.

I am sure many will offer excellent examples of business connections made to their satisfaction. So far preferable local contacts have eluded me.

Again, for the record, I am not contradicting your perspective, merely acknowledging difficulty making that happen.

Best,
Richard

[bluesman]

Sadly, what's killing local independents is the growing number of people who select items like audio, watches, clothing and shoes in person but buy them on line. No retailer can maintain inventory without sales - it's just unreasonable to expect them to provide good counsel and hands-on experience to people who will clearly not buy there. This makes many local retailers somewhat paranoid.

All it takes is support for the ones who deserve it, Richard. I've also had bad experiences at well known local dealers and great ones with online sources (e.g. Upscale Audio). If a local dealer treats me badly, my first response is to try to discuss it with the owner or manager. If I were a business owner and my employee treated a customer badly, I'd absolutely want to know about it. Of course, if the owner's the problem, we won't miss him.

Good dealers are like your teeth - you only have to take care of the ones you want to keep.

David

[wgscott]

Good dealers are like your teeth - you only have to take care of the ones you want to keep.
David

Some British words of wisdom, there?

Some manufacturers prohibit on-line sales, and make you go to a real dealer to purchase their stuff. In other words, if the manufacturers see that it is to their advantage to preserve the brix and mortar shops, they will, so that might be a good point for focus.

The main problem is if one can look at something at BestBuy and get it from Amazon.com $300 cheaper, delivered to one's doorstep in 2 days for free, and rob one's state of sales tax revenue in the process, why not get it from the on-line retailer who only has to pay someone in Fallon NV to stuff boxes in an overheated whorehouse?

[DigiPete]

After reading an article claiming that over 20% of hi-Fi shops closed their doors in 2011, I decided to investigate a few years more and found that over 50% of retail stores have closed since 2008. Given the nature of this hobby where auditioning gear is paramount, this doesn't bode well for us. Companies that sell direct only worsen the problem, but since there's fewer dealers available what are they to do?

Next time you're in the market for a piece of gear and there's a local store available, maybe stop on in and make the purchase or if the line isn't carried by that dealer, consider an alternative that is. We're not in a bad spot yet as hobbyists, but of this trend continues surely we as a collective will suffer. You could make the arguement for eTailers having a good return policy, and auditioning at home being the better option, BUT please consider that the Domestic economic system absolutely DEPENDS on the success and survival of the small business. And if you're dealer is selling with what you feel is an unfair markup, consider the overhead costs as well as the level of service your local B&M offer to you and the hobby. Surely this trend will cause the demise of even more manufacturers as well, creating even further unemployment. Thanx for reading.

I hear this type of complaints and whining from a lot of Americans, have you guys not realized that we live in a capitalistic society?
You die if you do not provide competitive service at a competitive price.
The other solution is called socialism.

My local audiophile shops only recommend analogue, so they may as well die for all that I care.
They recommend costumers to waste large sums on equipment that does not provide adequate sound quality, they should be punished for that.

I shop audio online when the service is better, and that is mostly the case.
I do shop my microbrew beers in real shops, as they provide a great service.

Protectionism degrades your competitive edge as exemplified in the american economy.
Let the smaller shops and brands die, and support the healthy ones for more bang for the buck.

Just my 5 cents.

[The Computer Audiophile]

I hear this type of complaints and whining from a lot of Americans, have you guys not realized that we live in a capitalistic society?
You die if you do not provide competitive service at a competitive price.
The other solution is called socialism.

My local audiophile shops only recommend analogue, so they may as well die for all that I care.
They recommend costumers to waste large sums on equipment that does not provide adequate sound quality, they should be punished for that.

I shop audio online when the service is better, and that is mostly the case.
I do shop my microbrew beers in real shops, as they provide a great service.

Protectionism degrades your competitive edge as exemplified in the american economy.
Let the smaller shops and brands die, and support the healthy ones for more bang for the buck.

Just my 5 cents.

Hi DigiPete - I agree with you 100%. Businesses that add value and are better than the rest will survive.

On second thought I don't agree with punishing shops. I would rather just not shop there. And, smaller shops and brands don't mean small value. I would say let the shops and brands that aren't competitive and don't offer value, whatever that is, die no matter the size.

[DigiPete]

Hi DigiPete - I agree with you 100%. Businesses that add value and are better than the rest will survive.

On second thought I don't agree with punishing shops. I would rather just not shop there. And, smaller shops and brands don't mean small value. I would say let the shops and brands that aren't competitive and don't offer value, whatever that is, die no matter the size.

Chris, I do agree, well put.

Thanks

[new_media]

...has to pay someone in Fallon NV to stuff boxes in an overheated whorehouse?

And where would one apply for such a job?

[CoolMilo]

I try to support the B&M near me but the experience is always less than satisfying. For example, the last time I tried to negotiate a price on a particular piece of equipment, the salesman pulled my friend and me under the camera and wanted to sell me his personal equipment. When I told him I wanted to buy new, he walked away from us. I have spent a lot of money over the years with this particular store but I try to avoid them at all costs now. Besides that, they don't seem to get computer audio.

I prefer to work with good people. For example, ALO Audio is not in my area but they are a B&M store in addition to an Internet store. Ken and team are very knowledgeable and professional making for an excellent buying experience. So I guess I am still supporting a B&M store at the end of the day. In addition, I enjoy buying from small equipment makers such as Red Wine Audio and Audiophilleo because they make terrific products and they are great people to do business with. I am very thankful for the Internet to help promote these types of businesses.

[wgscott]

And where would one apply for such a job?

Fallon, NV.

[Jud]

Hi DigiPete - I agree with you 100%. Businesses that add value and are better than the rest will survive.

First, thanks to mayhem13 for a valuable and timely topic.

Chris, one regrettable problem I've found over the years is that "better than the rest" can often mean better at making the sale, not necessarily at serving the customer. The type of dealer who many of us remember fondly years later, who becomes not only a dealer but a friend - who makes you feel welcome, lets you listen at leisure, explains things to you that you hadn't known before, and chats with you 'til your heart's content about audio and music in general - those folks may not be maximizing their economic returns, unfortunately. And dealers who stock excellent lines that aren't given a lot of marketing hype (e.g., Spectral) may suffer in comparison to those who stock highly marketed lines that don't offer as much value for money.

Or there can be entirely random occurrences - divorce and consequent forced sale or closing of the business, location of a Best Buy close to what was once a commercially desirable spot, road work that can interrupt car and foot traffic for extended periods....

[The Computer Audiophile]

Very valid points Jud.

[Paul.Raulerson]

I hear this type of complaints and whining from a lot of Americans, have you guys not realized that we live in a capitalistic society?

Hi Pete -

Well, I am sort of with you and Chris on this, I do try (hard) to support my local guys, but - I admit to being a bit price sensitive. More than a $100 difference in price, I find I cannot bring myself to pay. Up to $100, the local guys get it all the time.

That is a little more difficult in Texas these days, as Amazon purchases are charged 8.25% sales tax since July the 1st. (Time to recall the politician here in Texas that made that deal!) But even with sales tax equalized, a $300-$500-$1000 difference isn't small change to me.

If you buy something here for $2500, that's $206.25 in sales tax, for a total of $2706.25. Get it online for $2300, that's an automatic savings of around $317, even paying sales tax. Over $400 if you do not pay sales tax from the merchant.

I can't bring myself to throw away that much money to support folks, even when I like them and want them to be very successful indeed.

-Paul

[DigiPete]

Information on digital/computer audio is much more abundant online than in any brick and mortar store.
Thus we at CA are helping support online audio businesses of any size.

This is happening for most consumer products, and it is a good thing.
Smaller music publishing houses and hardware providers actually have a much better chance these days if they venture online.
The web actually helps 'Mum and pop' shops stand up to the big international monopolies, given they provide good service at low prices.

I think audiophilia is more likely to survive through online business.
How is that a bad thing?

[The Computer Audiophile]

Thus we at CA are helping support online audio businesses of any size.

We are also helping the brick & mortar staff by educating them. Most dealers I visit are on CA learning as much as they can.

[wgscott]

Amazon purchases are charged 8.25% sales tax since July the 1st. (Time to recall the politician here in Texas that made that deal!)

If Amazon doesn't have to charge you sales tax to compete with a brick and mortar institution that does, don't you think that is (1) inherently unfair, (2) essentially a taxpayer subsidy to Amazon, and (3) detrimental to the infrastructure of your state?

That has absolutely nothing to do with Capitalism vs. Socialism, unless you want to look at it from the perspective that Amazon is socializing its expenses but privatizing its profit.

[Paul.Raulerson]

If Amazon doesn't have to charge you sales tax to compete with a brick and mortar institution that does, don't you think that is (1) inherently unfair, (2) essentially a taxpayer subsidy to Amazon, and (3) detrimental to the infrastructure of your state?

That has absolutely nothing to do with Capitalism vs. Socialism, unless you want to look at it from the perspective that Amazon is socializing its expenses but privatizing its profit.

Eh- I think you lost me a bit there Bill. In general (and to my limited understanding), the issue here in Texas was presented as not having to pay sales tax on Amazon purchases was "unfair" to local B&M retailers.

Well, I was taught that if you want to encourage something, you tax it less. If you want to discourage something, you tax it more.

So to encourage local sales, they tax Amazon purchases?

Faulty logic, they should drop the local sales tax, or at least limit the items it applies to. That would encourage many more local sales. Proof of that is "tax free" day here in Texas each August. They pick one day where clothes (items up to $100) are tax free, and on that one day, they sell more clothing than on any other day of the year - including Black Friday.

Amazing, huh?

Encourage audiophiles and the audiophile industry? Tax it less.


-Paul

[The Computer Audiophile]

If Amazon doesn't have to charge you sales tax to compete with a brick and mortar institution that does, don't you think that is (1) inherently unfair, (2) essentially a taxpayer subsidy to Amazon, and (3) detrimental to the infrastructure of your state?

That has absolutely nothing to do with Capitalism vs. Socialism, unless you want to look at it from the perspective that Amazon is socializing its expenses but privatizing its profit.

I have many thoughts on this one.

If a brick & mortar store can't compete because of the difference in price with and without sales tax the store has a problem. Immediate pickup and in person assistance for the customer should be enough to overcome the issue as long as the store and sales staff are good. Amazon doesn't have the opportunity to sell like a live salesperson has in the store. I wonder what the return rates are at Amazon versus a local purchase from Best Buy?

When I purchase a downloaded movie from Amazon while I sit in my hotel room in another state or country there is no way my state should collect sales tax. For physical good that are delivered the state is already collecting gas taxes, licensing fees, etc...


Another thing that hurts high end retailers is financing. When Best Buy / Magnolia started selling B&W 800 series speakers the high end retailers lost sales because BB offered three years no interest financing. That's a big deal. Even if the retailers group together for financing options they can't come close to that. They've tried.

[DigiPete]

. . . That has absolutely nothing to do with Capitalism vs. Socialism, unless you want to look at it from the perspective that Amazon is socializing its expenses but privatizing its profit.

So do you think you should have federal taxes only, and perhaps provide equal funding to all schools across the country?
It would do wonders to restore the illusion of equal opportunity in the US.

[esldude]

I say, good bye and good riddance.

Maybe I am just unlucky. I have a percentage of useless, or actively bad or simply indifferent experiences with local dealers about on par with the purity of Ivory soap. None are recent, this was when things were simpler, choices fewer and the internet barely off the ground. I haven't been in a dealer in more than a decade. Things were so terribly bad, I mean just base level customer dis-service I gave up on them. I went back and gave them around a half dozen 'one more chances', and don't know what would make me go back.

I detest brands that try and protect the local dealer by trying to stop online or just out of town purchases. While I am sure there are some exceptions, some exceptionally exceptional even, they are just that....exceptions. In general I don't know of any real high end brick and mortar stores within a 100 mile radius while there once was around a dozen. I would be just as happy if I could add a zero onto it. Sorry to those who are exceptional, and I don't object to you continuing, to the rest sorry as well, but not that sorry. The sooner they die, the sooner manufacturers will get serious about alternative retailing polices, and choices.

Already, many offer in-home auditioning, what more could a local guy provide? Perhaps the actual installation especially with some modern complex systems. I would think this would provide a market for installers. To heck with the lousy local dealer system. Local installers can fill in the gaps.

Things change, business must evolve to keep pace. With online advice like here at CA, detailed email or other interaction directly with manufacturers etc. etc. a local presence is at best rather inefficient and limiting in choices. More abundant and widely spread audio festivals would do enough for people to have a hands on/ears on experience. They do need to be in more locations away from the handful of largest population centers.

The local brick and mortar audio store is a dinosaur that hopefully will become extinct soon. Any remaining issues without a dealer will be handled in a more efficient and useful manner. Some used to a more personal touch will miss that, but a method will develop that overall will improve the process of purchasing audio gear.

[monteverdi]

I am disappointed by most visits to audio stores nowadays. The equipment I am interested in is basically not distributed by any local (<200 miles) dealer. The dealer markup is often quite high, considering that often the items are not in store and so no layout for the dealer. Many manufacturers are now selling direct - and the only way to have some (vague) idea about the sonic qualities of gear is to go to audio shows. I assume that this will be the future distribution model of anything.

[Melvin]

I think audiophilia is more likely to survive through online business.
How is that a bad thing?

And not just survive but thrive IMO. Look at the DAC market right now, competition is fierce and prices have reflected this. I think it's fantastic especially for those of us that can't afford, say, a $5000 amp and would otherwise have access to only a few brands. Great prices, selection, & service .. not a bad thing at all.

[jerry_rig]

The nicest experience I had was at Sound by Singer and they are out of business.

Actually, Sound by Singer is still in business, although in a different location. I bought a dac from Andy in March. All in all a very good experience. Give him a call.

[iListentoMusic]

I'm a "who has the cheapest price shopper". If a local shop can match or get close to a online shop and have good service I'll buy it from them, if they can't I find it online. Simple. It's my money and I'm not one for paying more than I have to, why would I.
I buy camera gear from NY, music gear from Germany. When you save over 50% on Australian prices then why would you.
Nice thing for my audio is I have a store here in Melbourne that has good pricing, good service and I will buy my equipment off them because of it.