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  1. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Bystander View Post
    True. But that kind of knowledge doesn't lead you to expect something to sound better or worse for which you should have no expectation as to its sound quality before you've even listened to it. That's very different from telling me that I should look out for distortions in the first sample, but not in the second one.
    I guarantee you that if you tell someone to look out for distortions in the first sample but not in the second, you will skew the results & your test is a shambles!!

    Similarly, if you tell people that there is no difference between two samples or they have a preconceived notion that there could be no difference between whatever (cables, software, computer transports, etc) - you will similarly screw the test

  2. #327
    Let's put it another way: All else being equal, in how far is a sighted listening test superior to a blind listening test in evaluating the sound quality?

    Quote Originally Posted by mmerrill99 View Post
    I guarantee you that if you tell someone to look out for distortions in the first sample but not in the second, you will skew the results & your test is a shambles!!
    Exactly.

  3. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by mmerrill99 View Post
    Similarly, if you tell people that there is no difference between two samples or they have a preconceived notion that there could be no difference between whatever (cables, software, computer transports, etc) - you will similarly screw the test
    Yes, a thousand times yes.

  4. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Bystander View Post
    Let's put it another way: All else being equal
    But it never is - it can't be because of the test design,
    in how far is a sighted listening test superior to a blind listening test in evaluating the sound quality?
    You see, you're not listening, I never said it was "superior" - I said, like Jud, they are both equally untrustworthy

  5. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by mmerrill99 View Post
    I never said it was "superior" - I said, like Jud, they are both equally untrustworthy
    Well, that's something then. At least you agree that sighted listening tests are untrustworthy.

  6. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Bystander View Post
    Well, that's something then. At least you agree that sighted listening tests are untrustworthy.
    I do reach a decision though & it comes from living with a device or software or whatever & listening to it over time. This to me, reveals more about the nature of the sound.

    Hope this doesn't disappoint you too much

  7. #332
    Not at all. It's certainly not my place to criticize whatever you do at home.

  8. #333
    Señor Member Jud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bystander View Post
    I would in no way disagree with that. But whatever effect the sight of an expensive hifi system has on your listening experience (or the knowledge that you're listening to 'Audio-Nirvana-HQ-Perfect-Plus' instead of 'iTunes'), it will not help you hear any more details in the music than if you had no such knowledge.
    Howdy, been looking for old posts of mine as some food for thought in respect of blind vs. sighted testing, and finally found them. Please have a look at the following old posts regarding separate (mine and Superdad's) listening impressions of differences between different versions of the same bit-perfect software player:

    For Those of a Scientific Bent

    For Those of a Scientific Bent

    In these posts we're dealing with the degree of correspondence between separate, independent listening impressions.

    Then as a followup, have a look at this post about my miserable failure at blind testing the same thing, differences between two different versions of the same bit-perfect software player: *This* Should Set the Cat Amongst the Pigeons

    So why the difference in results? Blind testing revealed that the correspondence between Superdad's and my independent listening impressions (liking the same two builds out of nine we listened to over a period of months, describing the differences between these and other builds in a similar fashion, even both deciding that a particular build sounded different than the previous one when the developer had explicitly told us not to expect any change) were just a series of remarkable coincidences? Or is there something in the blind testing process that is to a degree antithetical to discerning differences that might actually be audible under other circumstances?

    As I said, this is just intended as food for thought. I'm very conscious of the fact that I can easily fool myself or be wrong for any number of reasons. Still, I would be interested in controlled trials of independent, sighted listening impressions versus blind testing to try to determine whether there were any consistent differences between the two methods in finding real differences audible and in false positives.
    The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein
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  9. #334
    Junior Member tne's Avatar
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    With the complaints here about HA, a site that I value and appreciate for learning ( I form my own opinions, thank you ) just like I value CA, I would also suggest people have a look at changstar. It is headphones and measurement oriented, friendly, irreverent helpful people who do not seem to take their internet personas too seriously.

    Check it out if that is your cuppa.
    They were translated poorly
    I felt like a clown
    I looked like someone I used to know, I felt alright
    And if I ever was myself, I wasn't that night

  10. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Jud View Post
    As I said, this is just intended as food for thought. I'm very conscious of the fact that I can easily fool myself or be wrong for any number of reasons. Still, I would be interested in controlled trials of independent, sighted listening impressions versus blind testing to try to determine whether there were any consistent differences between the two methods in finding real differences audible and in false positives.
    Yep, & including such positive & negative controls in blind tests would go a long way towards checking this out i.e. how many times a null is returned for subtle differences that are known to be audible. These controls would give us all an ability to judge how valid the blind test is at revealing differences it is purporting to be able to reveal.
    Last edited by mmerrill99; 01-02-2015 at 03:39 PM.

  11. #336
    Hi. Just came across this thread today. I had a brief visit to HA and it was clear it wasn't for me. There was one person I considered rude and unpleasant when I put in my first post ( a question about amplifiers ) he accused me of trolling and when it was obvious that I wasn't basically called me stupid. The mod apologised on behalf of the forum which I thought was quite nice.

    The other replies I had were courteous and informative in the ways members of that forum see audio. I had no problem with them, though I find it impossible to agree with their assertions ( as I understand them ). Each to their own I guess. It isn't the sort of site I like but no offence to most of the folks on there who as I say seemed pretty decent people from my limited experience

  12. #337
    Orange is the new Putin wgscott's Avatar
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    Sounds like a definite change for the better.

    Maybe it is time to try it again!
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Gone are the days we stopped to decide
    Where we should go. We just ride.

  13. #338
    I don't know. The general view of audio doesn't really coincide with mine and the "science thing" doesn't chime either. I have no axe to grind but was happy to leave the site for those whose view differs from mine

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