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  1. #1
    Orange is the new Putin wgscott's Avatar
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    OK, I tried hydrogen audio. It didn't go too well.

    I thought this was fairly innocuous. I imagine I will have been banned before I finish typing this.

    I didn't even post a poll (push or otherwise). I simply answered it. As simply and objectively as I could.

    2012 Unix Audio Player Usage Poll - Hydrogenaudio Forums

    Then I got this from the moderator:

    screen-shot-2012-10-01-3.08.41-pm.png

    So a humble request for our own Dear Moderator: If I should accidentally (or otherwise) manage to piss you off, please don't tell me to go to hydrogen audio. "Go to hell" at least would involve a more pleasant destination for that journey.
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  2. #2
    'Ankh Morpork, we have an orangutan...' dave_kiwi's Avatar
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    Pretty strong reaction ....

    Just read through the thread .... and given that the reaction to your comment is quite amazing. Wonder if any one commenting as ever tried to listen to Audirvana or any other commercial software. Seems like the only good software is "open source / compile it your self" .......

    Must be a fairly die-hard closed minded bunch there. Will certainly avoid as I too would most likely upset :-)
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  3. #3
    I know the guys over there. They definitely are along the lines all blind tests show all players, cables, amps etc sound the same and DBT's prove it. They even believe high bitrate compressed formats are indistinguishable from the original and make no mistake about it. A bit sad really.

    Hopefully posting around here is a much more enjoyable experience.

    Thanks
    Bill

  4. #4
    Orange is the new Putin wgscott's Avatar
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    My exchange with the "moderator" got worse. To his credit, he eventually apologized, but at that point I resigned, took my (now) dead dog avatar off, and logged out. I requested he delete the account.

    What horrible, horrible people.

    The one thing that does concern me is that these are guys going around wearing "Scientific" on their arm-bands. Scientists have enough of an image problem as it is. We don't need this. I would much rather hang with people who think USB cables sound different and music is described with words like "gooey" than those folks.
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  5. #5
    Certain groups are bit clicky. I posted on a forum in the UK for a while. I am fortunate in that I live close to a small manufacturer on the Gold Cost here in Australia and sometimes post about my trips down there and comparisons I have heard on stuff they make which I own quite a bit of. Boy did that rankle some guys on that forum - I was that Aussi pri** shill - the moderator even had to get the people concerned to apologize. I gave up - I have better things to do with my time than put up with rubbish like that.

    Thanks
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  6. #6
    Orange is the new Putin wgscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhobba View Post
    I know the guys over there. They definitely are along the lines all blind tests show all players, cables, amps etc sound the same and DBT's prove it. They even believe high bitrate compressed formats are indistinguishable from the original and make no mistake about it. A bit sad really.
    Knowing that to be the case, I avoided any sort of assertion to the contrary. I simply did what the poll question requested. I listed any player that wasn't one of the multiple choice options. I never made any claim one way or the other about sound quality. There are many reasons one might want to use Audirvana or one of the others, even if you can't hear a difference.

    Hopefully posting around here is a much more enjoyable experience.

    Thanks
    Bill
    Even our worst arguments are far better than that.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
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  7. #7
    be glad you don't use Amarra
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  8. #8
    Love CA Jay192's Avatar
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    I think the real reason is that you typed
    ©
    instead of (c).

    I guess the moderator was snoozing and didn't bother to notice the first OT/gibe.

    As an avid reader of your posts and blogs I came across this (below) so I would hope you wouldn't need to be too worried - unless you tried really really hard, in which case I would assume someone hacked your account and posted away ... Goodness, even if it came to it, we could have a poll to ascertain if your account was really hacked - that of course would be an objective poll result.


    screen-shot-2012-10-02-12.52.27.png

  9. #9
    Ph.D. Level Member Paul R's Avatar
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    Gads- I am sorry you did that Bill, you honestly did not deserve to have to deal with that bunch of gasbags.

    To be fair, there are some good people over there, but you did not chance to encounter them.

    Besides, we need ya here so you can pin my ears back when I have stupid ideas or exhibit sloppy thinking! (grin)

    Seriously though, did you see anything over there that equalled the quality of some of the blog entries here? I did not find anything that even begins to approach the quality of yours or many others here. There is some good stuff there, but you do have to wade through the muck to read it.

    Paul


    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    I thought this was fairly innocuous. I imagine I will have been banned before I finish typing this.

    I didn't even post a poll (push or otherwise). I simply answered it. As simply and objectively as I could.

    2012 Unix Audio Player Usage Poll - Hydrogenaudio Forums

    Then I got this from the moderator:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screen Shot 2012-10-01 at 3.08.41 PM.png 
Views:	4647 
Size:	99.0 KB 
ID:	2151

    So a humble request for our own Dear Moderator: If I should accidentally (or otherwise) manage to piss you off, please don't tell me to go to hydrogen audio. "Go to hell" at least would involve a more pleasant destination for that journey.
    Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.
    Robert A. Heinlein

  10. #10
    wgscott- I never thought I'd see the day that you would be described as a "mac user", troll, voodooware using, snake oil buying, money waster. You got all that within a few minutes over there. Gave me a bit of a laugh.

  11. #11
    Orange is the new Putin wgscott's Avatar
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    It almost makes me wonder whether it was you guys setting me up for one huge-ass practical joke. If so, well-played!

    It is remarkably amusing.
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  12. #12
    Senior Member One and a half's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave_kiwi View Post
    Just read through the thread .... and given that the reaction to your comment is quite amazing. Wonder if any one commenting as ever tried to listen to Audirvana or any other commercial software. Seems like the only good software is "open source / compile it your self" .......

    Must be a fairly die-hard closed minded bunch there. Will certainly avoid as I too would most likely upset :-)
    It really doesn't matter which software you prefer soundwise, since you would have to prove with a documented DBT that one player sounded better over another. Agreed on your view, there is a preference not to pay for any audio playback software, even if 95% of them don't play files to their correct sampling rate, eg Clementine. Then again, they see no need for anything above 128k anyway.

    Well, let's say, don't deny those who feel they can appreciate differences in SQ for their own enjoyment and expense, rather than succumb to some draconian idealogy.

    It is worthy of note that at Audio Asylum and Head-Fi in their "Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers, Accessories (DBT-Free Forum)", that the words 'DBT and ABX' are now banned from discussion.

    Given the amount of going around in circles that topic receives around here, copying that policy is a good idea.

  13. #13
    Orange is the new Putin wgscott's Avatar
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    I think if I had said something like "I use Audirvana Plus, because it sounds much better than iTunes," that would have been a reasonable point to ask for some objective evidence. But notice that never happened, with me or with them. I never made any such assertion (knowing the probable outcome), and they never asked. Being a moderately successful scientist by any reasonable standard, I don't really feel I need to prove anything to some anonymous goof-balls on the internet who, having recently discovered what a hammer can do, look everywhere to find some nails.

    They aren't scientists.

    They are anonymous keyboard bullies who slavishly ape what they wrongly perceive to be the aims and methodology of the natural sciences. It actually reminds me more of how things are done in the so-called social sciences (behavioral psychology and so on).

    My sin was simply that I did not allow them to bully me. The "moderator" guy (and it almost certainly was a guy) clearly interpreted this as a "lack of respect". It takes a twisted perspective to see it that way, but clearly their self-imposed idiot-logical confines and bizarre rules and rigidity prevent them from seeing it any other way. The behavior is much more reminiscent of a religious cult. I spend almost all my time with scientists. My wife is one. Most of my friends are. None behave this way. Not one.

    As for double-blind tests, they are resorted to when nothing better is available. They are quite helpful in determining things like the efficacy of drugs. I think it would be wrong to dismiss the utility of such a thing out of hand. But in many fields of science, there is no need for such a primitive approach. All good experiments are designed to test hypotheses. Double-blind tests are useful for testing a null hypothesis. But they can't take you much further.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by One and a half View Post
    It is worthy of note that at Audio Asylum and Head-Fi in their "Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers, Accessories (DBT-Free Forum)", that the words 'DBT and ABX' are now banned from discussion.

    Given the amount of going around in circles that topic receives around here, copying that policy is a good idea.
    I strongly disagree. Banning words is not going to achieve anything except turn this forum into something more draconian by itself. There are 100% legitimate reasons to discuss DBTs and talk about AB vs ABX and Chris will accept them as long as they are relevant for the given context and intent of a thread (says my Chris-channeling crystal ball).

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  15. #15
    Senior Member One and a half's Avatar
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    Discussing a topic that has no agreement and contributes to flames and insults, is this worthy of discussing in the first place? You are not going to convince people from either side to change their opinion, much like changing preferences, I personally find wearing baseball caps backwards looks silly, but others prefer that method, agreement is a parallel situation in that case, it never meets. So why bother starting the argument and it goes nowhere time and time again.

    Cables are a classic example, usually shouting wars start, and no agreement or even consensus reached,just a lot of ego back and forth on display, pffft, listen to music, how you like it played with your own ears and not some boar telling you otherwise, and promote encourage sensible discussion.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    I thought this was fairly innocuous. I imagine I will have been banned before I finish typing this.

    I didn't even post a poll (push or otherwise). I simply answered it. As simply and objectively as I could.

    2012 Unix Audio Player Usage Poll - Hydrogenaudio Forums

    Then I got this from the moderator:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screen Shot 2012-10-01 at 3.08.41 PM.png 
Views:	4647 
Size:	99.0 KB 
ID:	2151

    So a humble request for our own Dear Moderator: If I should accidentally (or otherwise) manage to piss you off, please don't tell me to go to hydrogen audio. "Go to hell" at least would involve a more pleasant destination for that journey.

    wg,

    Now that's entertainment.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ringenesherre View Post
    There are 100% legitimate reasons to discuss DBTs and talk about AB vs ABX...
    That may be true. However, do the benefits of allowing DBT, AB, ABX discussions outweigh the costs? Some might view such discussions as providing 5% benefit and 95% destructiveness. It might be best to leave it in the home. Or, maybe not?

  18. #18
    Señor Member Jud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    I think if I had said something like "I use Audirvana Plus, because it sounds much better than iTunes," that would have been a reasonable point to ask for some objective evidence. But notice that never happened, with me or with them. I never made any such assertion (knowing the probable outcome), and they never asked. Being a moderately successful scientist by any reasonable standard, I don't really feel I need to prove anything to some anonymous goof-balls on the internet who, having recently discovered what a hammer can do, look everywhere to find some nails.

    They aren't scientists.

    They are anonymous keyboard bullies who slavishly ape what they wrongly perceive to be the aims and methodology of the natural sciences. It actually reminds me more of how things are done in the so-called social sciences (behavioral psychology and so on).

    My sin was simply that I did not allow them to bully me. The "moderator" guy (and it almost certainly was a guy) clearly interpreted this as a "lack of respect". It takes a twisted perspective to see it that way, but clearly their self-imposed idiot-logical confines and bizarre rules and rigidity prevent them from seeing it any other way. The behavior is much more reminiscent of a religious cult. I spend almost all my time with scientists. My wife is one. Most of my friends are. None behave this way. Not one.

    As for double-blind tests, they are resorted to when nothing better is available. They are quite helpful in determining things like the efficacy of drugs. I think it would be wrong to dismiss the utility of such a thing out of hand. But in many fields of science, there is no need for such a primitive approach. All good experiments are designed to test hypotheses. Double-blind tests are useful for testing a null hypothesis. But they can't take you much further.
    Like all processes that become rituals, the one over at HA has its more or less amusing quirks. There was a mention of Vox on OS X that got no rises out of anyone. Nor, I would guess, would a reference to HQPlayer on Linux. But a pay-for player on a pay-for OS! Beyond the pale! (The whole "pay-for" thing is also part of the ritual, since the notion of "free software" is supposed to be free-as-in-speech, not free-as-in-beer.)

    The pack mentality and overweening moderation accomplish their purpose, and in the thread you briefly participated in, perhaps some folks got to read about players they hadn't run into before (though deity forbid they be exposed to the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of pay-for music players). But I think their conversations tend to be less interesting and informative than those here, for all our faults.
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  19. #19
    Senior Member 4est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringenesherre View Post
    I strongly disagree. Banning words is not going to achieve anything except turn this forum into something more draconian by itself. There are 100% legitimate reasons to discuss DBTs and talk about AB vs ABX and Chris will accept them as long as they are relevant for the given context and intent of a thread (says my Chris-channeling crystal ball).

    Cheers,
    Peter
    It was a DBT Free forum, that does not negate DBTs, but keeps the discussion about other issues. I have suggested to Chris that we make a way to indicate what type of discussion we want when we start a thread. The OP would indicate obj, subj or both as acceptable.
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  20. #20
    Ph.D. Level Member Paul R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    I think if I had said something like "I use Audirvana Plus, because it sounds much better than iTunes," that would have been a reasonable point to ask for some objective evidence. But notice that never happened, with me or with them. I never made any such assertion (knowing the probable outcome), and they never asked. Being a moderately successful scientist by any reasonable standard, I don't really feel I need to prove anything to some anonymous goof-balls on the internet who, having recently discovered what a hammer can do, look everywhere to find some nails.

    They aren't scientists.

    They are anonymous keyboard bullies who slavishly ape what they wrongly perceive to be the aims and methodology of the natural sciences. It actually reminds me more of how things are done in the so-called social sciences (behavioral psychology and so on).

    My sin was simply that I did not allow them to bully me. The "moderator" guy (and it almost certainly was a guy) clearly interpreted this as a "lack of respect". It takes a twisted perspective to see it that way, but clearly their self-imposed idiot-logical confines and bizarre rules and rigidity prevent them from seeing it any other way. The behavior is much more reminiscent of a religious cult. I spend almost all my time with scientists. My wife is one. Most of my friends are. None behave this way. Not one.

    As for double-blind tests, they are resorted to when nothing better is available. They are quite helpful in determining things like the efficacy of drugs. I think it would be wrong to dismiss the utility of such a thing out of hand. But in many fields of science, there is no need for such a primitive approach. All good experiments are designed to test hypotheses. Double-blind tests are useful for testing a null hypothesis. But they can't take you much further.
    Well said indeed! I even agree 100.0000 %.


    -Paul
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  21. #21
    Senior Member mav52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One and a half View Post
    Discussing a topic that has no agreement and contributes to flames and insults, is this worthy of discussing in the first place? You are not going to convince people from either side to change their opinion, much like changing preferences, I personally find wearing baseball caps backwards looks silly, but others prefer that method, agreement is a parallel situation in that case, it never meets. So why bother starting the argument and it goes nowhere time and time again.

    Cables are a classic example, usually shouting wars start, and no agreement or even consensus reached,just a lot of ego back and forth on display, pffft, listen to music, how you like it played with your own ears and not some boar telling you otherwise, and promote encourage sensible discussion.

    Well said
    "Maybe you need to stop looking for what other people claim is best, and start assembling a system that's in sync with your own musical taste"

  22. #22
    Orange is the new Putin wgscott's Avatar
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    If someone says "I found that USB cable #1 is much better than USB cable #2" and someone else asks if there is any objective data available to corroborate that claim, I think that is perfectly reasonable. If the answer is no (as it usually is), the appropriate reply is "thanks anyway" and to move along. If it does exist, a link or something to the test result could be really useful.

    Where it becomes problematic is where the statement "I found that USB cable #1 is much better than USB cable #2" is forbidden. That is a fascist mentality, not a scientific one. A scientific one, ideally would be, "what is it that sounds different, and how can we test that?" or "how can I reproduce what you found in my system?" or something along those lines.

    If that resembles a reasonable discussion, it isn't by accident.

    I think it would be equally counter-productive to ban that sort of discussion.

    Also, every time you ask to start banning things, you are asking Chris to spend more time playing policeman, and less time doing audio stuff.
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  23. #23
    Site Founder The Computer Audiophile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    If someone says "I found that USB cable #1 is much better than USB cable #2" and someone else asks if there is any objective data available to corroborate that claim, I think that is perfectly reasonable. If the answer is no (as it usually is), the appropriate reply is "thanks anyway" and to move along. If it does exist, a link or something to the test result could be really useful.

    Where it becomes problematic is where the statement "I found that USB cable #1 is much better than USB cable #2" is forbidden. That is a fascist mentality, not a scientific one. A scientific one, ideally would be, "what is it that sounds different, and how can we test that?" or "how can I reproduce what you found in my system?" or something along those lines.

    If that resembles a reasonable discussion, it isn't by accident.

    I think it would be equally counter-productive to ban that sort of discussion.

    Also, every time you ask to start banning things, you are asking Chris to spend more time playing policeman, and less time doing audio stuff.
    I agree 100% with everything Prof. Scott.
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  24. #24
    Masters Level Member ted_b's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    I think if I had said something like "I use Audirvana Plus, because it sounds much better than iTunes," that would have been a reasonable point to ask for some objective evidence. But notice that never happened, with me or with them. I never made any such assertion (knowing the probable outcome), and they never asked. Being a moderately successful scientist by any reasonable standard, I don't really feel I need to prove anything to some anonymous goof-balls on the internet who, having recently discovered what a hammer can do, look everywhere to find some nails.

    They aren't scientists.

    They are anonymous keyboard bullies who slavishly ape what they wrongly perceive to be the aims and methodology of the natural sciences. It actually reminds me more of how things are done in the so-called social sciences (behavioral psychology and so on).

    My sin was simply that I did not allow them to bully me. The "moderator" guy (and it almost certainly was a guy) clearly interpreted this as a "lack of respect". It takes a twisted perspective to see it that way, but clearly their self-imposed idiot-logical confines and bizarre rules and rigidity prevent them from seeing it any other way. The behavior is much more reminiscent of a religious cult. I spend almost all my time with scientists. My wife is one. Most of my friends are. None behave this way. Not one.

    As for double-blind tests, they are resorted to when nothing better is available. They are quite helpful in determining things like the efficacy of drugs. I think it would be wrong to dismiss the utility of such a thing out of hand. But in many fields of science, there is no need for such a primitive approach. All good experiments are designed to test hypotheses. Double-blind tests are useful for testing a null hypothesis. But they can't take you much further.
    +100. Best post of the week (heck, month ) so far!

    I was ridiculed over there about 3 years ago, Bill, and never went back. Forget what the subject even was; but it was, like yours, nothing even remotely revolutionary. I wish I had had your wordsmithing at the time. Brilliantly-put! But the flat-earthers threw me off the edge, or so they thought. Paddle a little farther and you find beautiful islands like this one.
    "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T.

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  25. #25
    Ph.D. Level Member Paul R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
    If someone says "I found that USB cable #1 is much better than USB cable #2" and someone else asks if there is any objective data available to corroborate that claim, I think that is perfectly reasonable. If the answer is no (as it usually is), the appropriate reply is "thanks anyway" and to move along. If it does exist, a link or something to the test result could be really useful.

    Where it becomes problematic is where the statement "I found that USB cable #1 is much better than USB cable #2" is forbidden. That is a fascist mentality, not a scientific one. A scientific one, ideally would be, "what is it that sounds different, and how can we test that?" or "how can I reproduce what you found in my system?" or something along those lines.

    If that resembles a reasonable discussion, it isn't by accident.

    I think it would be equally counter-productive to ban that sort of discussion.

    Also, every time you ask to start banning things, you are asking Chris to spend more time playing policeman, and less time doing audio stuff.
    +1 Yet Again!

    Someone should link this thread to the Civility topic. This is certainly one of the better examples yet posted.

    -Paul
    Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.
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