Audiophiles

[orgel]

Sure - even on photography forums (my other hobby), folks who obsess on squeezing every last detail out of photos exist - we're called pixel-peepers So I got "the sickness" there, too :/

Same here. At least my wife can relate to the photography.

--David

[prufrock]

My wife does all the stills. Just got herself a Nikon D5100. I know nothing about still photography but I can clearly see the image quality difference between it and other cameras on the computer. I did all the video though, mostly Hi8 and then digital to minitape. Had to go and get a bank loan to get the Hi8 back then. It cost a fortune but there was no going back to Video8 format - 420 verses 240 lines if I remember correctly.
Should some who knew nothing about audio be able to distinguish a Hi end system from a mid to low fi one as easily as I can see the picture quality difference between say phone and cheaper cameras verses the 5100?

[mav52]

Same here. At least my wife can relate to the photography.

--David

Same here, my other hobby cost more than my audio gear, nature and landscape photography using, Nikon D3s, D700, D800 and a bunch of too darn expense long lenses, landscape lenses and printers. But the wife likes it and also in interested in the hobby. She can take or leave bit perfect music. Just give her a CD and she's happy.

[prufrock]

Anyone around here say spent four grand on a cable in the past and now think its a crock? We here could provide comfort and support. Like a victims support group scenario. If you tell me about the four grand cable that will enable me to feel like I got off lightly with my 600 bucks and I will feel better. Those good vibes will then rub off on you and other victims.

[mav52]

I get pretty bummed when I spend $100.00 for a pair of speaker cables.

[xyz]

I think that there are a couple of things that are being overlooked with regards to the article.

"I came across and old but still amusing article called "Golden Ears and Meter Readers - The Contest for Epistemic Authority in Audiophilia" by Marc Perlman in "Social Studies in Science", October 2004 vol. 34 no. 5."

Given the fact that the author has no background in audio and works in a different field, to me, suggests that he may not be the most qualified person to take advice from. Also, the author does no listening tests at all to confirm the claims he makes. As a matter of fact, he can't have a valid opionion because of this. It's hard to have an opinion on something you haven't experienced.

[4est]

This thread distinctly smells of an American AM trash radio program like Rush Limbaugh.

[sandyk]

Forrest

Some of the "Hydrogen Audio" types seem determined to take the "Audiophile" out of "Computer Audiophile" and make life even harder for a whole industry in these hard economic times.Nobody is against good advice regarding ways to get good results without spending a fortune, but many of these recent posts seem determined to undo much of the good work that Chris and highly qualified Industry identities have achieved, as well as harm a struggling industry.


Alex

[jhwalker]

Forrest

Some of the "Hydrogen Audio" types seem determined to take the "Audiophile" out of "Computer Audiophile" and make life even harder for a whole industry in these hard economic times.Nobody is against good advice regarding ways to get good results without spending a fortune, but many of these recent posts seem determined to undo much of the good work that Chris and highly qualified Industry identities have achieved, as well as harm a struggling industry.


Alex

If by "audiophile" you mean blindly accepting high-end audio vendors' inflated claims based on nothing then, yes, I'd like to take the "audiophile" out of "Computer Audiophile". If by "audiophile" you mean "love of audio", then I strongly dispute your characterization.

I think all of us should be after the best sound, no matter how it's made - I just happen to believe that there is a *lot* of snake oil being peddled as "audiophile" - if clearing up the detritus "harms a struggling industry", then so much the better: the quality, well-built, reliable components will remain and the fairy dust will blow away.

IMO.

[sandyk]

"If by "audiophile" you mean blindly accepting high-end audio vendors' inflated claims based on nothing then, yes, I'd like to take the "audiophile" out of "Computer Audiophile". If by "audiophile" you mean "love of audio", then I strongly dispute your characterization."

Only a fool would blindly accept high-end audio vendors' inflated claims , and I doubt that there are too many of those as C.A. members.
I am referring here mainly to those who continue to snipe at high resolution formats, as that would also then be targetting by implication, the many fine DAC designers and manufacturers , some of whom are C.A. members, as well as several of C.A. advertisers, HD Tracks and others.

[prufrock]

Around this stage in the debate the motives of the sceptics gets questioned. They are painted as destroyers. The types that would do damage to a whole industry - DAC designers and manufacturers ... C.A. advertisers, HD Tracks and others.
Attempts will be made to ostracise them and silence them from debate. (This follows the stage where they create a blowup or scene and hope for a resultant embarrassed silence and no further mention of the issue).

Keeping in mind the mantra audio is different and inherently susceptible to this issue, one presses on trying to understand the phenomenon. What is ironic here is that the cable guys are genuinely frustrated at the pigheadnesss of others in non accepting what they hear. Like dowsers they are genuine folk. They are not trying to con anyone or lead anyone down the garden path. Dowsers are often farmers or drillers - level headed practical people. They dont try to figure out why the divining rod moves. They just accept it and get on with it and find water, which they do. However it seems that when they look at their results they tend to look on the sunny side of life.

Then along comes the sceptic, the fool who wont smell the roses.

[sandyk]

"Attempts will be made to ostracise them and silence them from debate. "

The many recent threads attacking the high resolution formats haven't been debates. The obvious lack of participation by the vast majority of C.A. members, and the very low post count in a forum of around 130,000 members is most telling.
Most C.A. members are experienced enough, and smart enough to know what they can, and can't hear, without somebody telling them they are imagining these things, and to go and do flawed DBTs.
.

[prufrock]

I think its a given that audio inherently will have this problem. Its always going to be a "this is as good as it gets" case. Even with proper legislation to hold vendors accountable, you are still going to have listeners claiming to hear what most listeners and difference testing cant.

What people should do is just ignore them of course. By attempting to set the record straight you are actually compounding the problem by giving them more airtime and importance. This thread is actually making the problem worse.

[msjjr]

I'd like to chime in. Most people forget that the most important factor in sound in the person. 'Sound" exists only in our brains. It is literally a construct that the brain creates to represent the energy conducted in sound waves that is detected by our ears. It is already hard wired into our brains. But, the cross links of the auditory cortex with other parts of the brain are numerous and not yet fully defined. So all sorts of different parts of the brain affect the perception of sound, to varying levels, and in inconsistent ways. This makes subjectivity to sound the true 'art' that it is.

This would seem to support the 'it ain't there if I can't measure it' gang, but there are problems with that. I'm sure everyone by now is aware that we are only able to observe, measure and predict 5% of the total mass+energy in the known universe. The other 95% is (almost) undetectable to us. That means that there is a vast amount of matter-energy all around us that we cannot see nor measure, but we have observed that it definitely has an effect on our 'universe'.

Is it so far fetched to believe that we cannot define nor measure all the things that could effect perceptual differences? Legitimate factors that could account for individual differences amongst people in sensitivity to technical variations. And.... some people just have better, hearing simple as that.

[esldude]

Is it so far fetched to believe that we cannot define nor measure all the things that could effect perceptual differences? Legitimate factors that could account for individual differences amongst people in sensitivity to technical variations. And.... some people just have better, hearing simple as that.

I don't think very many people are saying we can define or measure all things that effect audio perception. Nor that some people don't hear better than others. I may be taking your comment wrongly. But what some of us people do say, is we don't have to accept every possible idea because while we don't know everything there are some things we do know to a very high confidence level.

[prufrock]

Legitimate factors that could account for individual differences amongst people in sensitivity to technical variations. And.... some people just have better, hearing simple as that.

So what odds would you give them of being correct and the EEs wrong?

[prufrock]

In photography, you have the "gear" type. As funny as audiophiles in that sense of liking the equipment to an almost fetish intensity.The bogans are just as hilarious with their car worship.
However, only audiophilia has a Wikipedia section mentioning snakeoil issues in the industry. That is the thing that sets us apart from the other geeks and lovers of inanimate objects. It is one thing being a nerd. Being a sucker as well completes the full figure of fun scenario.

[prufrock]

Audiophilia has the additional problem of being pretty much an all male review. Why this is the case is a topic in itself. It has posed a problem nevertheless as the gear has to coexist often with tasteful furnishings, but only the guys know how the gear works or its requirements.. Photographers dont have this problem as the gear can go back into the bag and into the cupboard. However speakers have to coexist. Yes, we are talking about the wife factor. Just this afternoon I noticed someone had put a large potplant on top of on of my woofers. The speakers often get little adornments put on top of them. Looking now one of mains has a pretty red glass bowl perched on the top.
So not only are we geeks, but our wives talk about our silly looking speakers at lunch and shake their heads. And we are suckers as well.

[mayhem13]

I prefer the term 'audio enthusiast'. Sounds less like a disease and more like a hobbyist.

[mav52]

One thing about photography is that a person can actually see the results regardless of the camera used to make the picture, be it a $300 point and shoot camera or a Nikon D3s. In audio you can't see any results, your ears have to tell you if spending $1000 for a speaker cable is worth it, that pair of speakers that cost more than a car or two cars is worth it, or if that $5000 dac is worth it, that's the snake oil in audio and that is what audiophiles in magazines and the manufacturer attempts to push in order to gain sells from that small segment in society called audiophiles, audio enthusiast or those with more money than they know what to do with it types.

Manufacturers make stuff to sell, magazines and those "audiophile" editors get paid to review products and most support a positive review since the product is usually residing with those paid advertisement dollars in the magazine or forum site so their not going to trash the people that pay them to stay in business. Regarding the audiophile or the normal man who just wants to listen to good clean music, it really doesn't matter. The industry as a whole is following the video market, where you have millions and millions of teenagers and college kids and others who are using their iPods, iPhones, iPads and laptop speakers and those little TV's residing in the family van or on the backseat of the driver seat of a low riding car, to these people their music and video is cool 'IT's MOBILE' and it did not cost a lot to get them there...

"The days of the guy walking in the "audio" store with $20,000 to spend on a 2 channel system is gone. The same guy walks into a big box store (Best Buy), with wife, and they spend $20,000 on 5 speakers, a sub, a 60" TV, and a blue ray player and a subscription to Netflix and still have lots of money left over to include a new washer and dryer.

Audio is between your ears...and sometimes it doesn't have to cost a lot to put it between your ears.

[prufrock]

Audio is between your ears...and sometimes it doesn't have to cost a lot to put it between your ears.

I was lucky and got guided through the fairydust to high quality but cheap gear. The trouble is there are a lot of people missing out. They are buying crap stuff at big box store for 2 grand when the same money could have got them virtually pro quality gear.
And what about the inhouse sting, i,e those who waste their money on boutique cables and save money on speakers? There must be a few of them because there are quite a few cable manufactures and vendors around.
The whole cable thing is an unnecessarily and unhelpful complication. To get people into the computer audio thing, you want to keep it as simple as possible. - a laptop, a DAC and 2 speakers. The computer part itself will be challenge enough for some people, I know I found it a challenge and had to use tech support on JRiver many times (they were good btw).
What you don't want is a newbie coming onto a forum like this and see some apparently knowledgeable audiophile raving on about his don't ask me how much it cost cable and how it had lifted a veil on his sound. It makes it harder than it is. Some are going to be influenced by this and divert funds accordingly.

[4est]

I was lucky and got guided through the fairydust to high quality but cheap gear. The trouble is there are a lot of people missing out. They are buying crap stuff at big box store for 2 grand when the same money could have got them virtually pro quality gear.
And what about the inhouse sting, i,e those who waste their money on boutique cables and save money on speakers? There must be a few of them because there are quite a few cable manufactures and vendors around.
The whole cable thing is an unnecessarily and unhelpful complication. To get people into the computer audio thing, you want to keep it as simple as possible. - a laptop, a DAC and 2 speakers. The computer part itself will be challenge enough for some people, I know I found it a challenge and had to use tech support on JRiver many times (they were good btw).
What you don't want is a newbie coming onto a forum like this and see some apparently knowledgeable audiophile raving on about his don't ask me how much it cost cable and how it had lifted a veil on his sound. It makes it harder than it is. Some are going to be influenced by this and divert funds accordingly.

Since when is this supposed to only be evangelism for newbies?
Who said I saved money on speakers to buy cables?
I would love not to hear the difference in cables and save money. I also do not see many around here raving about cables or suggesting you spend large. It is more the other way around on this forum. Lastly why so charged about it if you were saved from evil by your merlin?

[vinylphile]

I don't think very many people are saying we can define or measure all things that effect audio perception. Nor that some people don't hear better than others. I may be taking your comment wrongly. But what some of us people do say, is we don't have to accept every possible idea because while we don't know everything there are some things we do know to a very high confidence level.

Agree with both of you here. I do not subscribe to the "no difference if it can't be measured" theory. We can only measure a small percentage of everything in the universe. The brain is a complex thing and sound quality is inherently subjective - the only thing which really matters is listening with your own two ears in your own system in a relaxed atmosphere. Rapid-fire double blind testing through A/B switching circuitry is meaningless IMO - sure it's results may be scientifically relevant but they cannot be extrapolated to real-world listening.

[prufrock]

I would love not to hear the difference in cables and save money.

I sympathise with your plight. However consider my predicament. I don't even believe in the fairydust and I still cant save the money. Next time I upgrade I want to have the courage not do my usual and pathetically spend 3 times more than I need to. Repeat.

[4est]

I sympathise with your plight. However consider my predicament. I don't even believe in the fairydust and I still cant save the money. Next time I upgrade I want to have the courage not do my usual and pathetically spend 3 times more than I need to. Repeat.

If I understand it, you were "guided" and so you really do not know, but were led. Besides buyers remorse, what is your predicament exactly?