Amarra Gapless playback with iTunes

[Dj]

Amarra plays gapless itself and so iTunes plays gapless itself. However, if I run Amarra with iTunes integrated it plays with gap. Amarra guide says change the option in the iTunes to play gapless but that doesn't solve the problem. Do I miss something?

Cheers

[One and a half]

Your observations are correct, I totally agree with your findings.

Even if you tag iTunes files as gapless, Amarra ignores this, and carries on by checking the songs sample rate, making sure it has the right one, and this takes about 500ms, enough to ruin a classical, opera of prog rock music in one go. In German, there's an expression that the object has 'nasen' (pronounced Nah-zzEN). It's the effect you get when you apply too much paint and it starts to run, creates a little nose so to speak and it makes the paint job, although really good overall, makes you focus, with razor sharp attention, to the defect. You can have a beautiful piece of timber you've painted, and it's ruined by nasen. It's sloppy work.

That's what Pure Music does to beautiful music, adds nasen. All this is included in the price, and you don't even have to configure it.

[REShaman]

Amarra plays gapless itself and so iTunes plays gapless itself. However, if I run Amarra with iTunes integrated it plays with gap. Amarra guide says change the option in the iTunes to play gapless but that doesn't solve the problem. Do I miss something?

Cheers

Isn't that because Amarra only plays gapless in Amarra's Playlist mode, at present, after you tag the files as gapless in iTunes. Then Amarra's Playlist mode will play them (or should). If you've met those requirements and Amarra in Playlist mode balks at playing tracks tagged as such in iTunes, then somethings amiss.

Granted other programs play gapless without requiring tagging the tracks as such and within moving them into a playlist type mode. However, if you prefer Amarra's SQ and you do not mind the time it takes to accomplish the small task, you should be good to go. And down the pike things will improve.
Above all, make yourself happy!
Best,
Richard

[Dj]

Thanks for the replies so far!

I tried to run Amarra in Cache mode so it wouldn't need to stop to figure out the sampling rate. But even that doesn't solve the problem. It is really annoying. It ruins the music.

Does anybody else has this issue?

Cheers

[AudioDoctor]

Thanks for the replies so far!

I tried to run Amarra in Cache mode so it wouldn't need to stop to figure out the sampling rate. But even that doesn't solve the problem. It is really annoying. It ruins the music.

Does anybody else has this issue?

Cheers

yes, run Amarra in playlist mode...

[REShaman]

Thanks for the replies so far!

I tried to run Amarra in Cache mode so it wouldn't need to stop to figure out the sampling rate. But even that doesn't solve the problem. It is really annoying. It ruins the music.

Does anybody else has this issue?

Cheers

Amarra in cache mode accomplished loading tracks into memory for smooth track sequencing. Not for gapless play. Amarra's src for me is if not seamless requires only a brief moment going from one album to the next album with different resolution, for example, playing 192/24 DL, then 48/24, then 44.1/16. Amarra sends the tracks to my W4S Dac2 which handles the src with aplomb and no problems whatsoever.

For the present Release of Amarra, Playlist mode for gapless play of tracks pre-tagged as gapless in iTunes is essential as gapless won't work in Amarra mode with or without cache, which is what I had written in a post below.

Several significant changes in Amarra is heading our way. Be patient. You'll be rewarded. In the meantime, for the present, you need to use Amarra in the way it has been designed.

Does that address your concerns, hopefully? If not, can you actually be more specific with what is actually happening and what you are doing sequentially before it does not turn out as expected? If you care to.

Best,
Richard

[Paul.Raulerson]

For the present Release of Amarra, Playlist mode for gapless play of tracks pre-tagged as gapless in iTunes is essential as gapless won't work in Amarra mode with or without cache, which is what I had written in a post below.

MMM- poor or out of date designs are not things I tolerate for long, like for more than three or so major software updates. I have seen where SS said they were going to address the gapless playback issue, but that was only recently and it is perhaps, the first time they have admitted it is even an issue for most folks.

-Paul

[Dj]

yes, run Amarra in playlist mode...

You are right! I noticed Playlist mode runs gapless but I have to add the music from iTunes or Finder into it. It is just too many steps. Hence, I would like to use the iTunes as the organizer. Also the search in iTunes is easier than in the Finder.

Again, in order to have a gapless playback,
1. Open Amarra,
2. Select the album in iTunes
3. Click the Playlist on Amarra
4. Click Add selected list from iTunes
5. Minutes later you can listen to music

Too many steps and sounds like a bad joke!

MMM- poor or out of date designs are not things I tolerate for long, like for more than three or so major software updates.

-Paul

Paul, Calling it poor design is a bit too mild!

[Paul.Raulerson]

Paul, Calling it poor design is a bit too mild!

Well, perhaps I was a bit uncharitable there. Admittedly, when Amarra first came out, it was all about the SQ and sacrificed pretty much everything else to that purpose. But even in the three years Amarra has been out, CA has changed dramatically, with people demanding more and more from the software.

They need to keep up and drop the somewhat arrogant attitude that people will choose them no matter what user hostile interface issues they put in the way. And the lack of gapless playback is a user hostile feature.

Yes, you can twist the way you listen to music all out of shape and achieve near perfect playback. Or you can just use iTunes, get very nearly the same quality, and have far less user interface issues. Or you can run something like Bitperfect or Audivarna and achieve nearly the same thing, with slightly different user interface compromises.

Of course, what you lose with iTunes is automatic sample rate switching; what you lose with some others players is the ability to stream to remote devices or play internet radio. It is all a big trade off of course.

It is just what Amarra has chosen to ignore is more important to a lot of people than what competitors have chosen to ignore.

Paul

[REShaman]

You are right! I noticed Playlist mode runs gapless but I have to add the music from iTunes or Finder into it. It is just too many steps. Hence, I would like to use the iTunes as the organizer. Also the search in iTunes is easier than in the Finder.

Again, in order to have a gapless playback,
1. Open Amarra,
2. Select the album in iTunes
3. Click the Playlist on Amarra
4. Click Add selected list from iTunes
5. Minutes later you can listen to music

Too many steps and sounds like a bad joke!



Paul, Calling it poor design is a bit too mild!

Minutes later? Amarra in Playlist mode adds the files in a second or two. Yes, for the present, that is how gapless play is accomplished. For me it is not as elegant as merely playing a gapless album or spending minutes assembling a playlist to add. The actual time to add the tracks is not minutes.

How you regard this procedure is purely personal. For me, it is not a deal breaker. And yes, other players, make gapless play transparent. Read the posts about other players and the problems owners are having with certain features. And it becomes clear that all players are improving with stumbles along the way.

Yes, Sonic Studio played it close to the vest. Too close. Not a rapport builder with their owner base or prospective buyers. But that too is changing. I believe they are more sensitive to making connections and being visible in a minor way. Hence several posts from Sonic Support. Tim and Damien are much more visible. When was the last time Rob at PM posted at CA. I am not making an argument.

Forgive the repetition: Have heart, be merciful, Sonic hears and is working on specific changes that will calm your pique. The most important perspective is that what is coming down the player pike is something that will get your attention big time.

If you love, like, tolerate the SQ of Amarra but certain stumbles and foibles keep you at a distance, I believe shortly that distance will be bridged. Or not, as I do not argue with perception. I do appreciate how unattractive these short-comings can appear and affect your assessment. The present procedure for gapless play while awkward is not repugnant to my sensibilities.

Stay vigilant.

Best,
Richard

[AudioDoctor]

You are right! I noticed Playlist mode runs gapless but I have to add the music from iTunes or Finder into it. It is just too many steps. Hence, I would like to use the iTunes as the organizer. Also the search in iTunes is easier than in the Finder.

Again, in order to have a gapless playback,
1. Open Amarra,
2. Select the album in iTunes
3. Click the Playlist on Amarra
4. Click Add selected list from iTunes
5. Minutes later you can listen to music

Too many steps and sounds like a bad joke!



Paul, Calling it poor design is a bit too mild!

Wow, if thats too hard for you perhaps you can hire a local teenager to do it for you? I don't really get how that is too difficult, gapless works perfectly in playlist mode.

[Paul.Raulerson]

Hi Richard- I get where you are coming from, and if I were only doing critical listening, I might agree with you. But a great deal of the time, I am not doing critical listening. Often, I listen purely for pleasure, and while I am working at another task.

So, instead of a minor interruption to pick a new song on the iPad or iPhone, I have to stop what I am doing, physically walk over to the machine, which may be downstairs in fact, if I am at my desk in the loft, get into the iTunes interface, clear the existing playlist, load a new playlist, start it playing, walk back to where I was, and resume whatever I was doing.

Yeah - that can invole minutes, not seconds.

Admittedly, sonic studio believes you should not be listening to music unless that is all you are doing, but that isn't compatible with real life for most people. It is what it is.

Paul

[One and a half]

Here is a screenshot of the playlist for reference.



To create this list did take minutes, since the albums are meant to be heard in one piece unbroken and it takes time to add the files into memory and make the beach ball. Well, I think I have the right album, the file names are truncated, and the artist data is missing, so i'm not really sure if I have the right album or not. itunes itself is able to glean the metadata quite well from these files.

This is Amarra playlist mode. It is what it is. I have a word for it, Richard knows it very well

[AudioDoctor]

one and a half, you are loading 32 songs into RAM, from your Hard Disk. That is not going to happen instantly. My understanding is that when playlist and cache are enabled, Amarra loads the ENTIRE playlist into RAM before beginning playback.

[One and a half]

My understanding is that when playlist and cache are enabled, Amarra loads the ENTIRE playlist into RAM before beginning playback.

Hmm, wouldn't the program just load one or two tracks in to RAM at start, then as the tracks are played, others are added to RAM in the background, Pure Music does this, Audirvana + is a lightning bolt when it comes to play, but their EQ regimes are different to Amarra's. Less processing overheads perhaps.

V2.4 has the facility to adjust the amount of RAM used, previously in other versions, say 10 load 10 tracks to memory was used. The steps are 512MB, 1GB, 4GB and 8GB, so you can't allocate 3GB...
The current guidance of 1GB/CD is fine, so how does that work for 192/24 files, where the file size is quite the larger compared to CD. I gather to get out the calculator and look up the bitrate and work out how much this would be. Bit of a kludge.

A better solution would be 'Auto'. You would hope that when Amarra quit, it would relinquish that RAM.

Still the SQ is there, but it comes, eventually.

[AudioDoctor]

Hmm, wouldn't the program just load one or two tracks in to RAM at start, then as the tracks are played, others are added to RAM in the background, Pure Music does this, Audirvana + is a lightning bolt when it comes to play, but their EQ regimes are different to Amarra's. Less processing overheads perhaps.

V2.4 has the facility to adjust the amount of RAM used, previously in other versions, say 10 load 10 tracks to memory was used. The steps are 512MB, 1GB, 4GB and 8GB, so you can't allocate 3GB...
The current guidance of 1GB/CD is fine, so how does that work for 192/24 files, where the file size is quite the larger compared to CD. I gather to get out the calculator and look up the bitrate and work out how much this would be. Bit of a kludge.

A better solution would be 'Auto'. You would hope that when Amarra quit, it would relinquish that RAM.

Still the SQ is there, but it comes, eventually.

I am guessing, but when I use "playlist" mode, the ram usage shown in the Amarra window exactly matches the size of the album being input via iTunes. Here is an example. The iTunes window at the bottom gives the size of the album, notice the same size in the Amarra window.

[Dj]

Wow, if thats too hard for you perhaps you can hire a local teenager to do it for you? I don't really get how that is too difficult, gapless works perfectly in playlist mode.

Your tone sounds a bit disrespectful! Nobody speaks of too hard or too difficult. It is tiring and time consuming!

As Paul nailed it, sometimes you are doing other things than just listening to music because you have to get things done in the house. All of a sudden music stops. Now you walk over to see what happened. Amarra has stopped to play in middle of the album. There is no error log! Then you have to start from scratch loading the album and figuring out which songs were already played. Often the loaded list are incomplete with information as "One and a half" observed it but that is a lesser issue for me.

Worse is, if I am doing critical listening after a long day of troubleshooting other "Retarded" software at work and Amarra has its bad day. It is annoying that I have to walk two to three times over to see what happened with Amarra? Sometimes I just want to click the list in iTunes and go and sit and relax.

[paul30d]

Minutes later? Amarra in Playlist mode adds the files in a second or two. Yes, for the present, that is how gapless play is accomplished. For me it is not as elegant as merely playing a gapless album or spending minutes assembling a playlist to add. The actual time to add the tracks is not minutes.

Richard, it's not that simple if (like me) you are using a headless music server - my mac mini has no keyboard and no monitor. You have to fire up remote access from another computer to select songs in playlist mode. Granted, it is not as inconvenient as finding another CD and popping it in the CD player, but there is no doubt Amarra is well behind other alternative software players when it comes to gapless playback.

Amarra does sound the best. But really, with the price I paid for it, I expect it to do other things at least as well as the alternatives. I have seen the post (somewhere) from SS acknowledging the gapless playback issue, so I guess it is being worked on. The improvements from 2.3 to 2.4 were quite substantial. So I have hopes for 2.5.

I will put up with the inconvenience for now and enjoy the improved sound quality. If I had nor seen that acknowledgement, I would probably be giving up on it and using either Pure Music or Audirvana. The differences in SQ with Amarra are getting less and less as the other software players are being developed.

[REShaman]

Hi Richard- I get where you are coming from, and if I were only doing critical listening, I might agree with you. But a great deal of the time, I am not doing critical listening. Often, I listen purely for pleasure, and while I am working at another task.

So, instead of a minor interruption to pick a new song on the iPad or iPhone, I have to stop what I am doing, physically walk over to the machine, which may be downstairs in fact, if I am at my desk in the loft, get into the iTunes interface, clear the existing playlist, load a new playlist, start it playing, walk back to where I was, and resume whatever I was doing.

Yeah - that can invole minutes, not seconds.

Admittedly, sonic studio believes you should not be listening to music unless that is all you are doing, but that isn't compatible with real life for most people. It is what it is.

Paul

Hi Paul,
For those times when you are not doing critical listening, are you stating that Amarra mode is not acceptable for non-critical listening because you can not load gapless albums/tracks in Amarra mode, only playlist mode and that requires you to physically accomplish this? Speaking of critical listening, I am not being critical of how you want music played, merely seeking clarity.
For example, I just went into my office and started a playlist in Amarra mode in my library seventy feet away with my iPod Touch Remote App, without moving more than a few inches. Again, I am being sincere here, dear, Paul. Is the difference with my example compared to your example/complaint, is that you wish to remotely play gapless tracks even though you are not doing critical listening, but prefer gapless tracks?

May I ask you a hypothetical? Thank you: "What if Amarra played gapless tracks in Amarra mode without having to even tag the gapless tracks in iTunes as "gapless"? I am also guessing that know you can employ another player to play gapless tracks remotely without those cumbersome Amarra steps, you still prefer Amarra? Or we're discussing Amarra and you are demonstrating the stumbles and foibles an owner must put up with examples like the one you gave? Just wanting to be clear for the purpose of understanding what we members who favor Amarra want, assuming you favor Amarra.
That's it for me for now. Thank you for your thoughts.
Rchard

[REShaman]

Richard, it's not that simple if (like me) you are using a headless music server - my mac mini has no keyboard and no monitor. You have to fire up remote access from another computer to select songs in playlist mode. Granted, it is not as inconvenient as finding another CD and popping it in the CD player, but there is no doubt Amarra is well behind other alternative software players when it comes to gapless playback.

Amarra does sound the best. But really, with the price I paid for it, I expect it to do other things at least as well as the alternatives. I have seen the post (somewhere) from SS acknowledging the gapless playback issue, so I guess it is being worked on. The improvements from 2.3 to 2.4 were quite substantial. So I have hopes for 2.5.

I will put up with the inconvenience for now and enjoy the improved sound quality. If I had nor seen that acknowledgement, I would probably be giving up on it and using either Pure Music or Audirvana. The differences in SQ with Amarra are getting less and less as the other software players are being developed.

paul30d (so as not to confuse the other Paul), I am learning from you and trying to appreciate what you prefer. Are you saying that with PM and Audirvana Plus you can employ those players headlessly without difficulty? Furthermore, how does that interface work? You're using a remote like an iPad or iPod? Forgive me, I am just not familiar with this interface as you already know how my system is configured. If you care to, would you educate me given how you use your system, i.e, a headless Mac Mini with no keyboard or monitor; what is your interface to/with your Mac Mini? How do you want Amarra to operate? By SS do you mean Sonic Support? Guessing about gapless playback being a focus is no longer necessary. Agree that 2.4 is an improved version over 2.3. Hope is a good thing to have.
Best,
Richard

[Paul.Raulerson]

I favor Amarra a lot Richard. Critical listening is when I am listening more in a "work" mode than in a pleasure mode. I am listening for all sorts of things and taking notes during the listening. I listen critically when I am reviewing something or making a purchase choice, or just trying to determine differences between configurations. When I am concentrating enough to listen critically, any kind of fault is going to stick out like a blinding flash and deafening retort.

When I am listening for pleasure, or while I am doing a separate task, I am not listening at that level but still devoting enough attention to the music that gapped playback not only intrudes upon my awareness, but is disturbing.

I do not believe this is an issue only with me, but rather I hear from many other people it also disturbs them to have a gap suddenly appear where one should not be.

As for using remote desktop to control Amarra, yes, it is possible. It isn't all that easy from an iPad, but it is possible and I have done it. I don't enjoy it. Not when I know I can tap on Remote and select another album in seconds.

I think you are suggesting that it isn't that much of a bother to deal with the playlist. For some that is certainly true. For others, and I think, many others, it is a big bother.

Yes, if Amarra would just play music without gaps and without making my life miserable, controlled by the remote app or even by a custom Amarra application, it would be all that I use in most cases.

I do note that many other players and systems do not have trouble with this, though some do.

Paul

[REShaman]

Your tone sounds a bit disrespectful! Nobody speaks of too hard or too difficult. It is tiring and time consuming!

As Paul nailed it, sometimes you are doing other things than just listening to music because you have to get things done in the house. All of a sudden music stops. Now you walk over to see what happened. Amarra has stopped to play in middle of the album. There is no error log! Then you have to start from scratch loading the album and figuring out which songs were already played. Often the loaded list are incomplete with information as "One and a half" observed it but that is a lesser issue for me.

Worse is, if I am doing critical listening after a long day of troubleshooting other "Retarded" software at work and Amarra has its bad day. It is annoying that I have to walk two to three times over to see what happened with Amarra? Sometimes I just want to click the list in iTunes and go and sit and relax.

I never argue with perception. So give it all you got! My tone is not meant to be even a bit disrespectful. Granted, when a program misbehaves, it is annoying and takes away from the experience as you exclaim. Is gapless play the only choice while Sonic Studio is working it out, notwithstanding other players have it down. Wouldn't it be to your advantage at the end of the day tired and wanting to relax to use the program that is not troublesome? Given the boundaries of your experience, are you even a little bit of a victim about this? Given your complaint about the time it takes to add gapless tracks into the playlist. And given you want a few tracks loaded immediately followed by loading by the program on its own. Do I have this right? Does any program do that presently? I do not mean play gapless without flagging or having to use a different "mode"?

Playlist mode accepts up to 99 tracks. The higher the resolution, the longer it takes. And one does not have to load the whole album unless one wants to. I have loaded 99 tracks in a less than a few minutes. Not sure what the other impediments mean about losing tracks, your place etc. Does those tracks just disappear? Until Amarra catches up with the other players which don't require adding to playlist mode, tagging etc., if your choice is Amarra, then...In the sense, that gapless is one of many modalities but not the only; and Amarra's Amarra mode is pretty good to my ears and controllable from another room if need be, can that not be an acceptable temporary solution. "Sometimes I just want to click the list in iTunes and go and sit and relax". That's a reasonable temporary adjustment while Sonic Studios sorts this out. Have heart, if you care to.
Best,
Richard

[REShaman]

I favor Amarra a lot Richard. Critical listening is when I am listening more in a "work" mode than in a pleasure mode. I am listening for all sorts of things and taking notes during the listening. I listen critically when I am reviewing something or making a purchase choice, or just trying to determine differences between configurations. When I am concentrating enough to listen critically, any kind of fault is going to stick out like a blinding flash and deafening retort.

When I am listening for pleasure, or while I am doing a separate task, I am not listening at that level but still devoting enough attention to the music that gapped playback not only intrudes upon my awareness, but is disturbing.

I do not believe this is an issue only with me, but rather I hear from many other people it also disturbs them to have a gap suddenly appear where one should not be.

As for using remote desktop to control Amarra, yes, it is possible. It isn't all that easy from an iPad, but it is possible and I have done it. I don't enjoy it. Not when I know I can tap on Remote and select another album in seconds.

I think you are suggesting that it isn't that much of a bother to deal with the playlist. For some that is certainly true. For others, and I think, many others, it is a big bother.

Yes, if Amarra would just play music without gaps and without making my life miserable, controlled by the remote app or even by a custom Amarra application, it would be all that I use in most cases.

I do note that many other players and systems do not have trouble with this, though some do.

Paul

Got it! Thank you for helping me understand better. BTW: those gaps are very intrusive in my experience as you state it is for you. That part I am not immune from. It's immaterial that I don't let the routine for gapless play get to me, as I am not you; and you, in light of what other players have accomplished, have a more than reasonable expectation that Amarra provide the same pleasurable experience.

Now Sonic Studio needs to deliver the solution you feel entitled to as so many others also prefer, as I prefer, that allows for an easy convenient (nearly perfect) method for playing gapless without jumping through hoops.

Remember that hypothetical? Good.

Sincerity is measured by time. (How much? Not certain.)

Best,
Richard