Thread: What this country needs is a good, 5-cent Wifi to DAC adapter

Originally Posted by richardp01

It sounds like a simple and cheap problem to solve

Unfortunately it really isn't that simple, as what you are asking for is really a (specialized) computer that can act as wifi client and USB host, and stream data (so it actually needs to understand the higher-level streaming protocols) from the network to the USB DAC. Yes, it can definitely be done with many of the small, embedded computers out there, but not for 5 cents.

Some audiophiles/music consumers are using graphic representations, Waveforms and Spectrum plots, of music files generated by software tools like Audacity as well as sites like the "Unofficial" Dynamic Range Database to help answer questions about a given recording's sound quality. Can you offer some thoughts on the pros and cons of relying on these kinds of tools?

The only “Pro” I see to this is peace of mind that you got what you paid for. As far as determining sound quality, you can’t! People need to start listening with their ears and not their eyes. These are very sophisticated pieces of software and a little bit of knowledge can ruin it for all of us. Education is the best answer. I’ve been trying to educate people in the use of these tools. I have no music or downloads to sell so I don’t have an agenda. An informed customer will spend money. If you keep them in the dark and try to deceive them, it will come back to bite you.

Inspecting the content of the container may not tell you whether or not the music sounds good, but at the very least it can tell you if there is no "high resolution" content in the file. Talking Heads, True Stories sold by HD Tracks is one such example. I did get educated in one sense: I saw firsthand what happens if a customer has the temerity to point this out.

Originally Posted by richardp01

I appreciate your reply. I figured it was more difficult to build the device than I made it sound, that's why I said "less than $200," at the end. I was aware that a processor and programming would be required, but I have no idea of the cost to provide them. Do you?

Well, one of the companies I am associated with (as chairman of the board) makes embedded systems. Based on the experiences in that company my answer would be "it depends" . It depends mostly on the volumes. If you expect to sell less than 5-10.000 units, it would be hard to get below $100. Multiply that by 10 and you could get below $50.

I'm wondering why all the manufacturer's put out USB DAC's instead of ethernet connected DAC's, then it would be just an issue of adding a cheap wifi hub and a driver to get wifi to the DAC.

The difference in hardware complexity is relatively minor, but in terms of software it is huge - an USB DAC just takes bytes and converts them to an analog value, while anything network connected has to talk some fairly complicated protocols. For a sort of "minimal level" of price and complexity, have a look at electric imp - they have actually managed to squeeze the minimal functionality down to a $25 price point, but they are bleeding edge and targeting large volumes.

Originally Posted by Julf

The difference in hardware complexity is relatively minor, but in terms of software it is huge - an USB DAC just takes bytes and converts them to an analog value, while anything network connected has to talk some fairly complicated protocols. For a sort of "minimal level" of price and complexity, have a look at electric imp - they have actually managed to squeeze the minimal functionality down to a $25 price point, but they are bleeding edge and targeting large volumes.

Thanks for the Electric Imp link - I had never heard of them before. I watched a couple of video interviews with the CEO Hugo Fiennes, that were linked to from the blogs section of the site, and it sounds really quite impressive the way they have an Amazon EC2 service hooked into all these networked Arduino type devices to coordinate them and install appropriate software according to what board the Electric Imp card is slotted into. And the Squirrel programming environment looks like it might be fun too.

I'm not sure it solves OP's original question about why aren't WiFi streaming audio devices cheaper, but you could do one or two things like switch on your valve amps to warm up while you were on your way home at least.

Richard,

Originally Posted by Richard Dale

I watched a couple of video interviews with the CEO Hugo Fiennes

I first met Hugo when he released the first version of the empeg something like 14 years ago. Great guy - and very, very clever.

I'm not sure it solves OP's original question about why aren't WiFi streaming audio devices cheaper

It definitely doesn't - but it probably provides a reference level for the absolute minimum amount of hardware and software cost needed for the functionality the OP was asking for.

I just found my missing post! I somehow attached it to the wrong thread. Very sorry. That'll learn me not to post at 3 am.

Cheapest I've done such a device has been around ~100€ BOM (not including anything for software development costs), thus it would retail from 500€ to 1000€.

Added cost of software development is cost of time spent on the development divided by expected sales volumes.

Rick,

Originally Posted by richardp01

I hate to keep bothering you but I found a device that may fit the bill. It's called a Thin Station and you can see it at (YK-UL280N) Connect with the Host Compter via WIFI Wireless PC Station products, buy (YK-UL280N) Connect with the Host Compter via WIFI Wireless PC Station products from alibaba.com. It has the right plugs. Do you think it could fit the bill as I describe it in my first post? For $50 I may experiment with it.

Hardware-wise it should do the job, but it seems to come with Windows CE (a completely different animal than "normal" Windows - I wouldn't want to try to run full Windows in 64M of RAM), so I don't know what software you can run on it. If it supports Java, you could run softsqueeze. The other possibility is installing linux on it, but while installing a standard Linux distribution such as Ubuntu on a standard desktop is easy and straightforward, installing a "thinned out" embedded linux on less-than-well-documented hardware is going to be an adventure....

Originally Posted by richardp01

It seems a shame to waste all that computing power on such a trivial task.

Agree. An alix box with a wifi adapter and linux would be $100-$150, but still a lot of money and hardware for something so apparently simple.