Newbie question on DAC

**karenchn** · 07-04-2012, 08:03 AM

Hello,

I am a newbie in computer audio, and I am not familiar with the digital audio signal between components. Right now, I am still using the onboard Soundmax HD sound card to feed digital audio signal through toslink (JRMC v17 WASPI event) to my Denon 3311 receiver for music playback. It works okay, but I believe that the Soundmax HD modifies the sound instead of letting the signal to passthrough in its original form.

Here are my questions:
Will I see sound quality improvement if I use a M2Tech HiFace to handle SPDIF instead of using the onboard soundcard?

I am also thinking about buying an entry level external DAC like XDA-1, Dacmagic+, or Xonar Essence One to do the D/A conversion. Would it be a noticeable upgrade over my existing setup? I mainly listen to two channel music, and I mainly use the Denon receiver as a DAC and amplifier.

My current setup:
PC: Asus Rampage II Gene w/ ADI AD2000B HD (a.k.a. Soundmax HD)
OS: Win7 64 bit
Media Server: JRMC v17 w/ WASPI Event -> SPDIF Toslink (Supports up to 192kHz 24bit)
D/A Conversion and Amp: Denon 3311ci
Speakers: Magnepan MMG

Please give me some advice.

Thanks,
Karen

**tubesound** · 07-04-2012, 08:57 AM

Probably you shall upgrade your amp first. Not sure about your budget but NAD C390DD is worth a consideration: NAD C390DD Direct Digital DAC/Amplifier

**Paul.Raulerson** · 07-04-2012, 09:19 AM

Pretty nice setup Karen! A lot of what you can do depends upon your budget really.

Here is what I would do - pick up an Audioquest Dragonfly USB DAC from Amazon for $250, and a mini jack to RCA cable at the same time. plug the Dragonfly into your PC, and connect it to your Denon's 7.1 front inputs if possible. (Odd, but the 7.1 inputs usually sound better to me. I have no idea why.)

Make sure the Denon is set to Analog pass through or whatever the setting on a Denon is to leave the input signal unaltered.

In JRMC Options-> Audio/DSP setup the output to go through the Dragonfly, using WASPI event handling with no changes to sample rates between 44.1 and 96k. Somewhere in the CAPS2 thread on this system there are exact directions on how to configure your PC with JRMC for the best results.

Listen to this setup for a week or so, writing down a few notes each time you do. Then listen to the old way a bit and write down your notes on that too. Back and forth it a bit till you are sure of your preferences. (It might be an in your face "I like It this way!" choice, but give it some time anyway, whichever way you feel

)

It is a slow process, but the little Dragonfly is the lowest cost DAC that to me, will show off high end sound for a very small amount of money, at least in Audiophile terms. And you can return it if it does not make any difference to you.

My guess is it will, and then you can consider your next moves at your leisure.

Paul

**mwheelerk** · 07-04-2012, 09:24 AM

Hi Karen
first, I absolutely think an external DAC would improve the overall quality versus using the internal DAC of the receiver. Secondly I do recommend considering upgrading the the Denon receiver to a nice integrated amp like a NAD or Cambridge Audio. The reason being is your MMG speakers not only require a lot of power to really sing and hear what they can really do but they present a nominal load of 4 ohm to the amplifier and typically even down to 3 ohm and most receivers such as the Denon simply are not made to produce sufficient power to drive them or carry that load. I would be surprised if your Denon wasn't running quite a bit warmer since you got the MMG's.

**pescholl** · 07-04-2012, 10:41 AM

I would definitely recommend getting the Emotiva XDA-1. I just picked one up a couple of weeks ago. I connect it to my computer via S/PDIF.

WOW! I'm impressed! The sound quality from files played on my computer took a major jump over the internal sound card. I consider the $200 I spent on it to be one of the best audio investments I have made in a long time.

Get one while they are still available.

**realhifi** · 07-04-2012, 11:24 AM

from Paul about the Dragonfly. What that enables you to to do is to go out of your computer USB, which bypass's your soundcard (better sound, you don't need another soundcard) and also has a dac built in thereby killing two birds with one stone!

I do however disagree about the input selection. I found the best one is the one for CD and use pure direct bypass for best sound on the Denon receivers. That's just my take though.

I'm pretty confident you'd be pleased with this setup.

**Paul.Raulerson** · 07-04-2012, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by realhifi

I do however disagree about the input selection. I found the best one is the one for CD and use pure direct bypass for best sound on the Denon receivers. That's just my take though.

I am sure David is right on what input to use, and I would follow his suggestion there.

Paul

**karenchn** · 07-04-2012, 06:32 PM

Hi All,

Thanks a lot for your advice. I did not know about Dragonfly until you introduced it to me. It is certainly something I look into seriously.

Regarding amplifier I have been considering upgrading to a more powerful one from Outlaw or Emotiva. The NAD C390DD is very nice, but it is quite a bit outside of my budget at this moment. I will probably do my grade step-by-step and try to learn more before I spend a lot of money on some serious components.

I remember listening to a pair of Magnepan 1.6 when I purchased my MMG. The clarity of the sound was amazing. It was like a real person singing in front of me on a stage, but the speakers were driven by Bryston amp and Audio Research CD Player as I remember. If my MMG is driven by the right amp with the right DAC, they will sound better too :-)

Thanks again for all your advice. I will start with getting a Dragonfly USB DAC because it will allow me bypassing my sound card and give me the option of using either the Denon and Dragonfly DAC. I will probably learn something from that in the process.

Karen

**tubesound** · 07-04-2012, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by karenchn

Hi All,

I will start with getting a Dragonfly USB DAC because it will allow me bypassing my sound card and give me the option of using either the Denon and Dragonfly DAC. I will probably learn something from that in the process.

Karen

My guess is that Dragonfly USB DAC will not be that much different than Sound Card toslink out to your Denon.

For a minimal setup, I'd like to recommend a Halide DAC HD: DAC HD v1.0 - Halide Design

**maximum kahuna** · 07-04-2012, 11:53 PM

I don't think you'll find an improvement by switching from toslink to coax. You've got the source nailed with JRiver using Wasapi event. HT receivers usually have good but not great DACs. I'd start with an outboard DAC. For the most part, more money will get you better sound, (with the law of diminishing returns coming into play, especially above $1,000.) Right now, $450 - $1,000 may be the sweet spot. I added an Emotiva XDA-1 and found it a subtle but noticeable improvement over the DAC in my Marantz. Denon like Marantz can sound a little warm, almost too laid back. I have a Schiit Bifrost in my computer set up and find it sounds really good too. It will do HiREz files from USB. If you're still not satisfied, try an amp upgrade. Your Denon has pre outs so hooking up an amp will be easy. The Maggies will love more power and you can't go wrong with Emotiva amps on a bang-for-the-buck basis. Be sure to use "Pure Direct" or "Source Direct" or whatever Denon calls it, to bypass the Denon processing and just use it for volume control and amplification. Take it one step at a time and let your ears decide! Good luck, you're about to take an exciting journey down a rabbit hole in a quest for better sound!

**brunk** · 07-05-2012, 01:13 AM

Get an amp before you get a DAC. That should be your first step. Then worry about a DAC. Any sonic benefit from a DAC will not be gained 100% until you get a better amp. You can even go the emotiva route for DAC/Amp. Which will allow you to run XDA-1 XLR out > XLR input on amp. Better than putting it through the denon's preamp.

**karenchn** · 07-05-2012, 02:06 AM

Is the soundmax toslink output a weak link of my system? Because my computer can still do digital volume controls, I do not know how faithfully the soundmax chip recreate the digital waveform as optical signal for the Denon receiver to decode. I have disabled the volume control in JRMC, but my soundcard may still be in the way and degrading the signal.

If that is the case, a decent USB DAC should solve this problem. I can just use my receiver as an amplifier until I get a real amp. If the affordable Dragonfly DAC indeed does a better job than my Denon 3311, it should be a good option for me.

An alternate solution is getting the M2Tech HiFace. It should allow me to bypass the soundmax sound card and let the Denon decoding a cleaner signal. The Dragonfly does not cost much more than the M2Tech HiFace though, it maybe a better route to take until I move on to a new DAC. I will likely gain some SQ with the Dragonfly.

I do not understand the power/maggies relationship very well. The shop owner who sold me the maggies knows HIFI. He has recommended me getting a Cambridge Audio Amp 100w/ch power level for not too loud type of listening, but I already have my 3311 at that point which has more power on paper. Right now, I do not hear distortion at the sound level that I listen to, so I am always curious about how much a more powerful amp can get me. Maybe my ears are not so well trained yet. I completely agree with the comment that the Pure Direct mode gives the best sound. I can hear much more detail in the Pure Direct mode than the Audyssey Stereo mode with room correction. It does more harm than good on 2 channel music.

**Paul.Raulerson** · 07-05-2012, 06:09 AM

I am going to take an opposite position to some of the guys here, in that I think the sound card in your computer is probably the limiting point on your sound right now. The Emotiva DAC, besides being out of production, will do little or nothing to address that, as one of the few downsides to that DAC is that the USB implementation is not as well done as the rest.

The Dragonfly gives you an excellent Asynchronous USB implementation, as it uses Streamlength code. The gentleman who invented and licenses that code occasionally posts here on C.A., and as it happens he also designed the Dragonfly DAC for Audioquest. he also designs and sells some of the best regarded DACs in the world. The Dragonfly has a family resemblence in the way it sounds.

Also, the Dragonfly can drive an amp directly, which may or may not be something you ever use. But it is fun to try it, because the volume control in the Dragonfly is analog, not digital. Removing the volume control from the digital domain is usually another sonic improvement, but of course, you can do that by simply setting the output volume in JRMC to 100% and using the volume control on your Denon.

Lastly, those Maggie's need to be played about 400 hours before they will really show their best. The Denon will probably drive them nicely, but what you will buy with an upgraded amp will essentially be better control of the bass.

And by upgraded, I mean an amp that can supply more current to the speakers. Check to see if your Denon is rated for "4ohm" loads, which is roughly, an idea of how much current your amp can deliver. If it is rated for 4 ohms, then don't worry about it until after you see what impact a good little DAC like the Dragonfly makes for you.

If you cannot hear any significant difference with the Dragonfly, you are not likely to hear much difference until you start looking at much more expensive DACs, in my opinion. If you do, then you can consider amp upgrades and such. And in the meantime, you avoid spending much money or getting into stashes with cables and converters and so forth, while getting to sample a very good DAC.

I have one, and think it sounds very good indeed. It isn't perfect of course, but I only notice those imperfections when it is compared to much more expensive DACs, and in audiophile speak, it does not embarrass itself even in those comparisons.

Most importantly, don't agonize too much, this is really a fun experience, and can be a delightful experience. You will get a lot of great suggestions here, already have in fact! I would recommend keeping it simple till you gain confidence in what you do and do not like. And you already have a pretty good system, I think your dealer helped you make good choices there.

Paul

**Paul.Raulerson** · 07-05-2012, 09:38 AM

I took a minute or two to look up that receiver, and I think it is pretty nice. It is rated to six ohms, which is probably quite OK for the Maggie MMG speakers. Nice package from your dealer, I think.

-Paul

Code:

 
•	Power amplifier 
Rated output: Front: 
125	W	+	125	W	(8	Ω,	20	Hz	–	20	kHz	with	0.05	%	T.H.D.) 
165	W	+	165	W	(6	Ω,	1	kHz	with	0.7	%	T.H.D.) 
Center: 
125	W	(8	Ω,	20	Hz	–	20	kHz	with	0.05	%	T.H.D.) 
165	W	(6	Ω,	1	kHz	with	0.7	%	T.H.D.) 
Surround: 
125	W	+	125	W	(8	Ω,	20	Hz	–	20	kHz	with	0.05	%	T.H.D.) 
165	W	+	165	W	(6	Ω,	1	kHz	with	0.7	%	T.H.D.) 
Surround	back	/	Front	height	/	Front	wide: 
125	W	+	125	W	(8	Ω,	20	Hz	–	20	kHz	with	0.05	%	T.H.D.) 
165	W	+	165	W	(6	Ω,	1	kHz	with	0.7	%	T.H.D.) 
Dynamic power: 130	W	x	2ch	(8	Ω) 
190	W	x	2ch	(4	Ω) 
Output connectors: 6	–	16	Ω

**Jud** · 07-05-2012, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by tubesound

My guess is that Dragonfly USB DAC will not be that much different than Sound Card toslink out to your Denon.

For a minimal setup, I'd like to recommend a Halide DAC HD: DAC HD v1.0 - Halide Design

Based on experience my own opinion would differ re the Dragonfly. I found it to be an improvement on the DAC in my ESI Juli@ sound card, which is a very good, well thought of card. Another aspect is that you can use it with a laptop and headphones (especially in ear monitors, "IEMs") as a high quality source of music when you travel.

The Halide is a very good piece as well, though I believe it is a bit more expensive and it eliminates the headphone option.

Re an amplifier, I think amplifiers and DACs can both make a difference, so it would really be up to your budget and your ears which upgrade (DAC or amp) sounds best to you at a price you would like to pay.

**karenchn** · 07-05-2012, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Paul.Raulerson

I am going to take an opposite position to some of the guys here, in that I think the sound card in your computer is probably the limiting point on your sound right now. The Emotiva DAC, besides being out of production, will do little or nothing to address that, as one of the few downsides to that DAC is that the USB implementation is not as well done as the rest.

The Dragonfly gives you an excellent Asynchronous USB implementation, as it uses Streamlength code. The gentleman who invented and licenses that code occasionally posts here on C.A., and as it happens he also designed the Dragonfly DAC for Audioquest. he also designs and sells some of the best regarded DACs in the world. The Dragonfly has a family resemblence in the way it sounds.

Also, the Dragonfly can drive an amp directly, which may or may not be something you ever use. But it is fun to try it, because the volume control in the Dragonfly is analog, not digital. Removing the volume control from the digital domain is usually another sonic improvement, but of course, you can do that by simply setting the output volume in JRMC to 100% and using the volume control on your Denon.

Lastly, those Maggie's need to be played about 400 hours before they will really show their best. The Denon will probably drive them nicely, but what you will buy with an upgraded amp will essentially be better control of the bass.

And by upgraded, I mean an amp that can supply more current to the speakers. Check to see if your Denon is rated for "4ohm" loads, which is roughly, an idea of how much current your amp can deliver. If it is rated for 4 ohms, then don't worry about it until after you see what impact a good little DAC like the Dragonfly makes for you.

If you cannot hear any significant difference with the Dragonfly, you are not likely to hear much difference until you start looking at much more expensive DACs, in my opinion. If you do, then you can consider amp upgrades and such. And in the meantime, you avoid spending much money or getting into stashes with cables and converters and so forth, while getting to sample a very good DAC.

I have one, and think it sounds very good indeed. It isn't perfect of course, but I only notice those imperfections when it is compared to much more expensive DACs, and in audiophile speak, it does not embarrass itself even in those comparisons.

Most importantly, don't agonize too much, this is really a fun experience, and can be a delightful experience. You will get a lot of great suggestions here, already have in fact! I would recommend keeping it simple till you gain confidence in what you do and do not like. And you already have a pretty good system, I think your dealer helped you make good choices there.

Paul

Hi Paul,

I am sold on the Dragonfly DAC. Thanks a lot for sharing your experience :-)

There are so many DACs on the market, and their performance cannot be judge by their spec and cost. it is helpful to have someone who have experience with them giving me a recommendation, especially one that does not cost a fortune :-)

Listening to beautiful sound is a priceless experience. It is also a fun journey learning how to build a system that fits my need.

Karen

**karenchn** · 07-05-2012, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Jud

Based on experience my own opinion would differ re the Dragonfly. I found it to be an improvement on the DAC in my ESI Juli@ sound card, which is a very good, well thought of card. Another aspect is that you can use it with a laptop and headphones (especially in ear monitors, "IEMs") as a high quality source of music when you travel.

The Halide is a very good piece as well, though I believe it is a bit more expensive and it eliminates the headphone option.

Re an amplifier, I think amplifiers and DACs can both make a difference, so it would really be up to your budget and your ears which upgrade (DAC or amp) sounds best to you at a price you would like to pay.

Hi Judd,

Thanks a lot for your advice. I will buy a Dragonfly and experience it. Like what you have said, the portability of it and being able to use it with good quality headphones is a big bonus for me. At times I find it difficult to enjoy my Maggies when my daughter is sleeping. The Dragonfly will be perfect for that.

Karen

**tubesound** · 07-05-2012, 11:43 AM

Just found out some info about Denon 3311ci's DAC:

The amp has a DSP processing chip with 32-bit channels including 24-bit audio reproduction with AL24 Processing Plus and a precision DAC (AK4358).

Karen: good luck with the Dragonfly.

**Paul.Raulerson** · 07-05-2012, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by tubesound

Just found out some info about Denon 3311ci's DAC:

The amp has a DSP processing chip with 32-bit channels including 24-bit audio reproduction with AL24 Processing Plus and a precision DAC (AK4358).

Karen: good luck with the Dragonfly.

The AK4358 probably explains who so many people like the Denons, I think. I like that series of chips, as when implemented well, they seem to produce a smooth "jazzy" kind of sound I like.

**Sumflow** · 07-06-2012, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by tubesound

My guess is that Dragonfly USB DAC will not be that much different than Sound Card toslink out to your Denon. For a minimal setup, I'd like to recommend a Halide DAC HD:

Is there anything the Halide HD does besides the cables, that the Dragonfly does not do when used as a signal source for a pre-amplifier?

**tubesound** · 07-06-2012, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by Sumflow

Is there anything the Halide HD does besides the cables, that the Dragonfly does not do when used as a signal source for a pre-amplifier?

Dragonfly is a USB DAC+Headphone Amp and Halide HD is a pure USB DAC (with very good quality cables on both ends). They both use Gordon's async codes. I thought Karen should buy something better than the Dragonfly to compete with the internal DAC in Denon. Halide HD got good reviews and Chris put it on his C.A.S.H. list. Halide may be able to make a difference for her.

**Sumflow** · 07-06-2012, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by tubesound

They both use Gordon's async codes.

If they are both going to sound the same, and the Dragonfly in addition to the Dac has the analog volume control so the music does not get screwed up by lowering the sound. Why would you suggest something that is out of date, and costs twice as much, just because somebody put it on a list a long time ago?

**tubesound** · 07-06-2012, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Sumflow

If they are both going to sound the same, and the Dragonfly in addition to the Dac has the analog volume control so the music does not get screwed up by lowering the sound. Why would you suggest something that is out of date, and costs twice as much, just because somebody put it on a list a long time ago?

Halide is a very well engineered DAC and it's certainly not out of date. Being a dedicated and higher priced DAC, Halide shall have more leeway to treat the power supply, digital filtering, analog stage, etc. and so I guess Halide shall sound better than Dragonfly as the price suggests. Here is Chris's review on Halide: Computer Audiophile - Halide Design DAC HD Review

I heard neither of these two DACs. It's pure speculation from my side. To complicate things, sometimes the system synergy comes into play as well.

Ideally, Karen should audtion whatever gear in her own system before purchase. But sometimes it's not always possible. I often had to take chances to buy audio equipment only based on reading reviews and Internet forum discussions.

**Paul.Raulerson** · 07-06-2012, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by tubesound

Halide is a very well engineered DAC and it's certainly not out of date. Being a dedicated and higher priced DAC, Halide shall have more leeway to treat the power supply, digital filtering, analog stage, etc. and so I guess Halide shall sound better than Dragonfly as the price suggests. Here is Chris's review on Halide: Computer Audiophile - Halide Design DAC HD Review

I heard neither of these two DACs. It's pure speculation from my side. To complicate things, sometimes the system synergy comes into play as well.

Ideally, Karen should audtion whatever gear in her own system before purchase. But sometimes it's not always possible. I often had to take chances to buy audio equipment only based on reading reviews and Internet forum discussions.

I have heard the Halide HD and I own a Dragonfly, they are definitely competitive with each other. They have quite different sounds though, and different strengths and weaknesses.

Either is a probably a good choice for most people, I expect.

-Paul

**karenchn** · 07-07-2012, 07:33 AM

It will probably take me a lot of learning before I can tell the strength and weakness of either solutions, and I cannot go wrong with either one of them. A question I have in my mind is the requirement on interconnect to use the Dragonfly up to its potential. I am looking at the AQ Golden Gate 3.5mm to RCA interconnect and still considering what USB extension cable to get. It will be nice if the whole package of the Dragonfly can be kept within $350.

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