Good 192 kHz ADC for recording vinyl - any suggestions?

**drfresh** · 05-11-2012, 04:58 AM

Now I have searched and read a lot on these forums and also participated in a few threds but haven't quite found the answer yet. So I'm really hoping that yet another thread on this will give some feedback. And I hope you will forgive me for starting this thread.

Now from reading elsewhere on these forums I ended up with an E-MU 0204 from Creative that just didn't seem to work in my setup. I will not go through the problems (in short though, this lead to almost constant clipping on the input of the E-MU).

My current setup is:

Project-1 turntable
Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge
Cambridge 651P RIAA Pre Amp
Van den Hull Name phono cable
(can't remeber the name, but rather expensive) RCA to JACK adaptors (needed for the E-MU 0204 as it only has jack line input connectors)

so I just need and USB2 (or 3) device capable of samling my line signal in 24 bit 192 kHz (I just need that resolution so don't argue about that :-)) that will handle the above setup. And I would prefer one that actually has RCA inputs - they are aparently very rare unless it's a cheap combined preamp and ADC/DAC.

I will be very thankful for any advice. Budget? We could perhaps start on up to 250 USD and see...

**spdif-usb** · 05-12-2012, 02:02 PM

Nothing's wrong with the E-MU 0204. All you need is this:
Amazon.com: Harrison Labs 3 dB RCA Line Level Attenuator Pair: Musical Instruments
and this:
Amazon.com: Harrison Labs 6 dB RCA Line Level Attenuator Pair: Electronics

**AudioDoctor** · 05-12-2012, 02:04 PM

There has been a lot of discussion around here about just this topic. I will repeat myself again, RME Fireface 400. I use it, and love it.

**spdif-usb** · 05-12-2012, 02:23 PM

P.S. - It's not uncommon for a cartridge / turntable to have a channel imbalance. Just record a mono track to figure out which channel needs additional attenuation, and how much. Next, you can use iZotope RX Advanced to digitally apply the attenuation. Don't worry about losing bits this way, you won't be losing anything.

**spdif-usb** · 05-12-2012, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by AudioDoctor

There has been a lot of discussion around here about just this topic. I will repeat myself again, RME Fireface 400. I use it, and love it.

Too many bells and whistles IMO. To my ears, the ADC in the E-MU 0204 sounds just as good so I would rather save up towards a better turntable / cart.

**AudioDoctor** · 05-12-2012, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by spdif-usb

Too many bells and whistles IMO. To my ears, the ADC in the E-MU 0204 sounds just as good so I would rather save up towards a better turntable / cart.

well, that's your opinion. To my ears the only ADCs I have heard sound better were more expensive...

**micksa** · 05-12-2012, 04:18 PM

I think most vinyl-rip newbies just want a clean, jitter-free sound at the end of the digital chain. The nuanced differences between one and the other, while interesting (and noted!) are secondary to the fundamental question: 'how much do I need to spend to get the output to sound like the input?'

From my investigations so far, having auditioned a couple of contenders, I'd say it was around $500, although there are one or two options at half the price. Given the above debate, I'm tempted to spend the extra mostly because this purchase is also a DAC upgrade.

These were on my shortlist:

Roland New Zealand - Vocalist » QUAD-CAPTURE (UA-55)
PreSonus

..but I'm now thinking of splurging on one of these:

http://www.furutech.com/download/ADL%20GT40_News.pdf

Interesting that the cheaper Roland is the only 192kHz one there. I hear the argument for extra headroom in post-production, but i'm unconvinced I'll miss it with a mere 24/96er.

Also interested to hear of the attenuation issue. Is this a tweak you normally have to deal with, or are there 'dials' on some ADCs for the purpose?

Mick

**spdif-usb** · 05-12-2012, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by micksa

Also interested to hear of the attenuation issue. Is this a tweak you normally have to deal with, or are there 'dials' on some ADCs for the purpose?

Just forget about dials. The method I described is extremely accurate because 24-bit audio gives you so much headroom you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Even world's best ADC cannot achieve 21 bits of accuracy due to thermal noise. You can apply up to approx. 48 dB of digital attenuation before you start losing bits.

**DavidL** · 05-15-2012, 02:14 PM

A couple more points for you drfresh.
I have a record-player setup of similar quality to yours:
Thorens TD160BC (modified), Mission 774 arm, Ortofon 2M Black cartridge, Pure Sound P10 phono stage.
After getting advice on an earlier thread here, I bought a Fireface 400 for converting vinyl music to 24/192 files.
I had the same problem as you - the output level from the phono stage was too high. I did not want to throw information away by using the digital volume control in the software (Peak Pro in my case) so I tried 2 alternative means for attenuating the signal:
(1) Audio Synthesis Passion passive pre-amp and (2) Musical Fidelity X-CANV8P used as a pre-amp. Both worked well with (1) perhaps more transparent. In general (2) would be less critical than (1) as regards impedance matching.
For headphone monitoring of digitised music i have found that the Fireface 400 also has a good DAC and amp.
Hope this is of use
David

**spdif-usb** · 05-16-2012, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by DavidL

I did not want to throw information away by using the digital volume control in the software (Peak Pro in my case) so I tried 2 alternative means for attenuating the signal:
(1) Audio Synthesis Passion passive pre-amp and (2) Musical Fidelity X-CANV8P used as a pre-amp. Both worked well with (1) perhaps more transparent. In general (2) would be less critical than (1) as regards impedance matching.

Like I said, you aren't throwing anything away when adjusting the left-right channel imbalance in iZotope RX Advanced 2. It's much more accurate than using analog volume pots, the only problem is you can't use software to avoid the clipping that occurs in the ADC when the phono stage outputs a signal that's too hot for the ADC's circuitry to handle. Trust me, those 3 dB and 6 dB fixed attenuator pairs I linked on amazon are all you need to solve the clipping.

**m_j_s** · 05-17-2012, 03:43 AM

Dr,

I also have an RME Fireface400 and its very good as AD says. One feature that it does have is level control at the front end which I am pretty sure is in the analog domain.

However its not clear to me where your computer sits in all this and whether you have to have external devices. I say this, as a couple of years ago I was using a PCI card solution in a PC to incredibly good effect. In that case it was an Echo Mia, quite cheap, with playback virtually indistinguishable from the original. Very high quality and I would certainly consider this sort of approach. Some may complain about the noisy PC environment, but that did not seem to be a problem to me. If I had a Mac Pro now, rather than a Mini, I would probably go that way again.

**drfresh** · 05-17-2012, 06:17 AM

First of all - thank you all for the reply. I've been away on holiday so just got back and read through all this.

@AudioDoctor and DavidL - Sorry the RME Fireface is not an option as I do not have a firewire interface on my laptop.

From what I understand from spdif-usb there's nothing wrong with my E-MU0204 (it's now returned to the seller and he has refunded me saying that they couldn't either find anything wrong with it) and as DavidL also seems to have experienced the same with diffenrent equipment I might go back and (re)buy the E-MU0204.

@Micksa I also looked at the Roland UA-55 but found the specs almost like the E-MU and they seems very similar in function and layout so I went for the cheaper E-MU - it was recommended in these fora. And the Furutech I really like - it's just what I want, had it only been 192 kHz (I might rewise my point of view as there is quite a few boxes like that one around with a combined phono preamp and ADC/DAC USB included but all at 96 kHz). And I totally agree with your opening line - it seems there should be a market for someone who will make a simple but good quality solution for connecting your (existing) turntable to a combined "box" and do just that.

@DavidL Would you use the Audio Synthesis Passion passive pre-amp as an attenuator or? I'm sorry - I'm a newbie to all this. I did look at these as they were recommended somewhere. Do you think they will do the job? Or could I go for the ones spdif-usb proposed? And if either - where exactly in the chain would you put them?

Thanks again all!

**DavidL** · 05-17-2012, 10:53 AM

1) Have you seen the Babyface USB interface from RME?
RME: Babyface

2) The Audio Synthesis Passion is a passive pre-amp using a chain of resistors so has a maximum 'gain' of unity i.e. it is always an attenuator. I would use it downstream of a solid-state phono amp having a low output impedance. Now that I use a valve-based pure sound p10 phono amp (which has a relatively high output impedance) it is better to use the active MF X-CAN pre-amp for attenuation, again immediately downstream of the phono amp.

**spdif-usb** · 05-17-2012, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by drfresh

And if either - where exactly in the chain would you put them?

Between the RCA cables and the jack plugs that go into the E-MU. That way, the RCA cables will degrade the sound less due to the higher level signal running through them but make sure to put something underneath the attenuators / plugs to support the weight.
Adding a preamp as an attenuator will lengthen the analog signal path, which will degrade the signal more. I am not just talking about the additional interconnects it would require, but the components and the wiring inside the preamp also.
Save up for a better turntable (like maybe a VPI Scout) and something like this. Soundsmith The Voice Ebony moving-iron cartridge Review - Equipment Reviews - Dagogo
Next, upgrade the phono stage and possibly the interconnects, and THEN worry about an ADC.

**drfresh** · 05-18-2012, 03:41 AM

@DavidL - is I did notice the RME babyface, but it was five times more expensive than 0204 and as the 0204 got good reviews (also in these forums for my purpose) I went for that. Now I've just learned from the reseller that the E-MU0204 is end of life and no longer awailable. So now I will go for The Roland Quad Capture instead. And try the attenuators - in the first place I will try the ones spdif-usb recommended, just 12 dB version and see how it all ends up...

@spdif-usb thank you - got it! And yes I know - everythiong could be much better and much much more expensive, and it's very likely that I have focused wrong when going for 192 kHz instead of the much more availble 96 kHz solutions when you look at the rest of my setup.

Now I have ordered the Roland UA55 Quad capture and then I'll have a try with that and also ordered the inline attenuator at 12 dB just in case.

Thanks again!

**jerico** · 05-19-2012, 08:54 AM

I'm following this thread, thinking of archiving my vinyl. For ADC units without RCA ins, do you just get a simple mixed termination cable (RCA-TRS or RCA-XLR), or is there more to it than that? I would prefer to run the signal out from my phono pre.

I have my eyes on the newer Fireface UCX (the half rack space unit that can do USB).

**Julf** · 05-19-2012, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by jerico

I'm following this thread, thinking of archiving my vinyl. For ADC units without RCA ins, do you just get a simple mixed termination cable (RCA-TRS or RCA-XLR), or is there more to it than that? I would prefer to run the signal out from my phono pre.

A simple conversion cable should do - you get most of the benefit of a balanced interconnection despite your source not being balanced.

**AudioDoctor** · 05-19-2012, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by jerico

I'm following this thread, thinking of archiving my vinyl. For ADC units without RCA ins, do you just get a simple mixed termination cable (RCA-TRS or RCA-XLR), or is there more to it than that? I would prefer to run the signal out from my phono pre.

I have my eyes on the newer Fireface UCX (the half rack space unit that can do USB).

Julf is right, there are cables made with RCA on one end and the balanced MONO TRS connectors on the other, they work perfectly.

**jerico** · 05-19-2012, 12:25 PM

Excellent, thanks guys.

**spdif-usb** · 05-19-2012, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by drfresh

and it's very likely that I have focused wrong when going for 192 kHz instead of the much more availble 96 kHz solutions when you look at the rest of my setup.

I don't believe 192 kHz would be a waste of time with your setup, listen for yourself before you decide.

**Julf** · 05-19-2012, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by spdif-usb

I don't believe 192 kHz would be a waste of time with your setup, listen for yourself before you decide.

While I, personally, think 96 K is more than enough fr vinyl. Not much stuff above 48 kHz on vinyl...

**CatManDo** · 05-19-2012, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Julf

While I, personally, think 96 K is more than enough fr vinyl. Not much stuff above 48 kHz on vinyl...

If the extended frequency response was the only benefit of a higher sampling rate, no human would notice a difference between 44kHz and 192kHz.

**jerico** · 05-19-2012, 05:18 PM

Just ordered a Fireface UCX and a couple of cables.

I'm actually curious to try PureVinyl for *playback* (ie taking my phono stage out of the signal path).

**Julf** · 05-20-2012, 05:05 AM

Originally Posted by CatManDo

If the extended frequency response was the only benefit of a higher sampling rate, no human would notice a difference between 44kHz and 192kHz.

Right, but even 96 kHz gives you enough space to avoid overly steep filters.

**goldenpiggy** · 05-20-2012, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by jerico

I'm following this thread, thinking of archiving my vinyl. For ADC units without RCA ins, do you just get a simple mixed termination cable (RCA-TRS or RCA-XLR), or is there more to it than that? I would prefer to run the signal out from my phono pre.

I have my eyes on the newer Fireface UCX (the half rack space unit that can do USB).

Fear not...almost every professional audio interface I know of and have used accepts unbalanced inputs. All RME interfaces accept unbalanced connection no problemo. It doesn't matter what the physical connector is -- unbalanced is unbalanced. RCA is unbalanced.

You should get an RCA male to -1/4" mono (TS or tip-sleeve) male cable. You DO NOT need to get an RCA to 1/4" stereo (tip-ring-sleeve - TRS) or XLR cable -- they provide NO added benefit and just costs more. It will not "balance" your unbalanced signal.

To truly convert an unbalanced signal into a balanced one, you need a transformer, not just changing the connector. If you must convert to balanced, get something like a Whirlwind Director DI box, which has very good Jensen transformer that won't color the sound much if at all. (This box has 1/4" unbalanced input and XLR balanced outs, so you still need RCA-1/4" TS cable.)

Cheers,
JR

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