Thread: Channel Classics does DSD!

Wdw,
I am glad you mentioned HDtracks. A huge chunk of what you see on HDtracks is DSD to inferior PCM conversion. I would rather have the original DSD file and be done with it. Why buy the PCM conversion for $15 to $20 on HDtracks and then pay again when it becomes available for DSD download?

When you run a business selling a premium product, you have what is called "pricing power". If there is no other competing product, then you can price your product at whatever you like.

Lets' put it another way. If you were in Jarod's shoes, what would you do?

As I said above, the market will decide what happens to the price.

If customers don't think they are buying a premium product at the correct price, then they won't buy it, and the business will have to lower the price.

Geez...why is this so hard to understand?

Congrats to Channel Classics

Why buy the DSD if you can convert to PCM?

...don't need a lesson in marketing. Certainly Channel can and will sell at any price they chose but my point still stands. I'm certain that this site is exceedingly influential, on a worldwide scale, in the new emerging market of High Rez downloads, a market we all hope will expand to embrace all the musical canon. We should oppose unduly high prices.
If we don't protest this tier of pricing it will become the baseline and, if so, we may as well all go home. I also suspect that the majors are watching this site with interest and would be thrilled to know that people are vigorously defending 30 to 40$ per album downloads.
The baseline pricing has been set by Apple but a 10$ album at 256kbs is, I sure we'd all agree, far too expensive. This then becomes the rational for 96 at one price and 192 at higher price, etc... til we end up with the absurd rational, as advanced by Channel, that I should be quite happy to pay 40$ for a download since I have a $5000 DAC. horse hockey!

convert it to PCM for playback"? Because the answer to your original question is "because I can". If I have a DSD-capable DAC why wouldn't I want to hear DSD recorded material in DSD? The only real issue there is to buy the SACD and rip its DSD (via PS3 hack method) or forego that step and buy the new DSD downloads. The SACD is cheaper, gives you surround too, but relies on having a ripper solution, something many folks here have pushed back on.

But to wonder why one would buy the original recording format for native playback? That's our goal, isn't it? if it's recorded in PCM, lemme hear it that way; if it's recorded in DSD lemme hear it that way. Analog mastered to DSD or PCM, same answer (unless you have a tape machine and the originals).

Never a truer word has been spoken. Elegantly put

I would rather be talking music than pricing but am happy to fill you all in on the reality of our market.
My margin when selling SACDs to our distributors around the world is on average 4 and a half euros. If there are mechanical rights on the product it is 3 euros! (don't forget Hybrid cds have two cds glued together which makes the price double a normal cd)
When selling a 20 euro 192/24 bit download, the margin is indeed higher, but except for pressing and storing the physical cd,the costs of server,taxes, royalties etc. is still expensive. the margin is around 10 euros. 8 and 1/2 with mechanicals. What I am getting at is with this extra margin, maybe we can finally make some recordings that till now were not possible because there was simply no margin and a saturated cd market with no stores!

You want the highest quality... You are getting it.. But now I am getting request to record at 128fs. Another investment having just switched last year to the most expensive and the best converter from Grimm Audio.
Actually I based my price on what the LP market is asking here in Europe. A very defined market. Just like the DSD download market at this moment. The SACD buyer is not the download buyer. (yet) And by the way,why are all download buyers I see on our site only MEN?
I have also stated on our site that those who have bought hi res from us and want the same file in DSD can get in touch with us and we will set up the file so that one only pays the difference.
greetings
Jared

I cannot use DSD, and am very happy with 192/24 FLAC converted to WAV format.

I just checked out the Channel Classics site and they offer the same album in 192/24 FLAC at AU$12.48 (that's Australian dollars) which is a third of the AU$37.45 for the DSD.

This is nearing the same price as albums offered by eClassical, and you can also buy individual tracks if you desire.

I'm happy, enjoy the music,
Blu

PS. I must add that it appears that this is a half price special, they don't advise how long the special is on for.

Bis and LINN have to upsample when making SACDs.

Yes we have a special deal on three cds for one week. If you sign up for our newsletter, you will know about these specials, or just get lucky that you find them!

I cannot use DSD, and am very happy with 192/24 FLAC converted to WAV format.

One option is to be future-proof and use a player that can do the DSD-to-PCM conversion on the fly. Then you know you have the original and that you can play it natively if you ever decide to switch to a DSD-capable DAC.

You make my day!

Fast Dl.

Uncompressed zip, a la Cookie Marenco's Blue Coast Recordings.

I just Dl the Fischer/Stravinsky "Rite of Spring". Incredible recording

Cheers!

Roch

PS/ Regarding price politics, please remember, those who complains, this is 2,67 GB DL, that means about the triple size of a Flac 'hi res' Dl from another places. Also a real master, then exposed to pirate copy!

..to elcorso,
wisdom!
wdw

I was planning on downloading some DSD this weekend. I guess the weekend started early in the jungle. Another good thing about downloads is that they don't run out of stock. :-)

Dear Jared,

I applaud you and your company for sticking to the SACD/DSD bandwagon while even Sony has jumped ship and BIS and the few others who issue SACD are recording in PCM and package them in SACD, just to charge the customer the extra few dollars.

However please consider this, the fact that SACD market is on life support is mainly due to the high price while at the same time with its very secure protection scheme deny the customers of choices like playing back with computer.

All that of course was changed recently with the dCS initiative and trickles of DSD capable DACs coming out. However, arguably that is too little too late and the odds and strongly against the while format. Because the available of raw DSD files are rarer than hens teeth. But that is still a bit of light at the end of the tunnel.

And for us hard core audiophiles who have bought into the SACD format, bought hundreds of them only to see it fading, the recent discovery of the capability albeit very difficult capability to rip DSD files with a certain model of PS3 gave us some real hope. We are what you would call at the bleeding edge an would go to extreme length to obtain or rip our music collection into the original formats. And I am sure that most of us, myself included, has started to buy SACDs once again.

But please note that people who care about obtaining the unobtanium are the rare exceptions, and chances are those people already saw fit to grab themselves whatever old PS3 they can find to ensure continued supplies of DSD rips. And if the price of the physical discs are less than half the price of the downloads, we would not mind to have a real product with booklets and something to hold on to, especially if the price is right.

I, as an example of one typical computer audio fool, used to buy PCM files from HDTRACKS and the like quite frequently. Because that was the only mean I could get supposedly higher quality music into my computer, and the price was equal to or not much higher than the physical discs. But ever since the PS3-DSD solution came out I have rarely visited the HDTRACKS site, and have bought dozens of SACDs.

I guess this is a long winded way of saying that the people who are desperate enough to get DSD files are stern supporters of your format, but many of us already found a way to grab the DSD content from the discs. And therefore the 2-3X price of the DSD downloads are just not very attractive to us.

What's it matter? He just explained in a post above why Channel Classics is charging a premium for the downloads. So he can get a bigger margin. That is HE want's to make more money out of each sale. Rather than the retailer, and other middle men..It is a simple as that. If you don't like it, keep buying the SACD's. He is still going to make money. Just not as much. But the more he makes, the more he can reinvest in the business, keep it viable..even grow it by releasing even more fabulous DSD recordings...He said he can do this with more confidence with the higher margins from the downloads. Got it? That way HIS business grows rather than retailers, transport companies, importers and all the other "old economy". Obviously if he can get a higher margin on the downloads, rather than the SACD why wouldn't he..? We will all benefit in the long run.

Actually this is a classic "investment lesson". Always invest in companies who can maintain their margins. Now if you find a company that can INCREASE it's margins due to pricing power..well you have a truly great investment indeed....not to mention a very viable business. And quite frankly we all need as many viable business's in the hirez music and recording industry as we can hold onto right now... would you rather they just roll over and give up the fight against this inane mp3 download all you can get for free nonsense..would you rather they just fold?...

>>What's it matter? He just explained in a post above why Channel Classics is charging a premium for the downloads. So he can get a bigger margin. That is HE want's to make more money out of each sale. Rather than the retailer, and other middle men..It is a simple as that. If you don't like it, keep buying the SACD's. He is still going to make money. Just not as much. But the more he makes, the more he can reinvest in the business, keep it viable..even grow it by releasing even more fabulous DSD recordings...He said he can do this with more confidence with the higher margins from the downloads. Got it? That way HIS business grows rather than retailers, transport companies, importers and all the other "old economy". Obviously if he can get a higher margin on the downloads, rather than the SACD why wouldn't he..? We will all benefit in the long run.

>>Actually this is a classic "investment lesson". Always invest in companies who can maintain their margins. Now if you find a company that can INCREASE it's margins due to pricing power..well you have a truly great investment indeed....not to mention a very viable business

And my (uneducated) theory was that it will not sell at that high a margin. I could be wrong of course.

Starbucks can starting charging $10 for their coffee, it will increase their margin 3 folds, but no one will buy it.

Maintaining gross margin is only effective if you can sell the product of course.

But what has he got to lose?

If you want the music you will buy it. Now if your budget is 100 Euro's for music that day, you can afford 5 x SACDs, 4 x 24/192 PCM albums or 3 x DSD downloads. Either way you have spent the same amount of money, but Channel Classics has made MORE money on the $100 sale, if they sell them to you in the DSD download format..

Everyone can go buy as many 5 bob classic cd's as they like. Till the cows come home. Big deal. They are next to worthless. That is not the point. It is all about paying a price premium for quality in a fast and easy to obtain format. If customers like doing this, they will pay the premium price. If they don't, he won't sell as many DSD tracks. He'll sell more PCM, or SACD's...big deal. He has lost nothing. If the DSD downloads don't sell, he'll lower the price.

But it's crucial for a business to begin a new product launch by trying to price it's best product at a premium. Wine, travel, suits, perfume, whatever. You never price your best product the same or at a discount as inferior products in the same line! If you only sell 1 premium product in a 100, it doesn't matter. You still sell the other 99 lesser quality. Also by having a premium product..kind of out of reach..it attracts interest to the rest of the product line ..it advertises the brand.. just like on this thread!!

This is just about the most sensible thing I have seen in the entire music industry in the last couple of years. Congrats to you Jared...

It depends what the business objective is. If the objective is to get some positive comments and to be congratulated by well meaning people, then he has succeeded, he has my congratulations along with others.

If the objective is to make margin, i'd say questionable. If it is to promote the format, I'd say nice try. But overall it is already beyond what all the other labels.

I salute Jared for sticking to his gun.

Sorry I may have accidently misled, with my remark earlier indicating all 192/24 FLAC downloads were half price. It just happended that 2 albums I clicked on were 2 of the 3 that are on special.

The 3 albums are "Bach Violin Concertos" with Rachel Podger, "The Mahler Album" by the Amsterdam Sinfonietta, and Dvorak Symphonies 8 & 9 by Ivan Fischer & The Budapest Festival Orchestra.

Nice sound, enjoy the music,
Blu

>>I applaud you and your company for sticking to the SACD/DSD bandwagon while even Sony has jumped ship and BIS and the few others who issue SACD are recording in PCM and package them in SACD, just to charge the customer the extra few dollars. DSD. We have to, if we want to produce an SACD. And on eClassical.com we sell the Original Mother Studio Master Files without any change whatsoever, just like Jared (but rather differently priced).

While at it, I also totally don't understand his reasoning about prices - if he wants an *even* higher margin (his margin for selling an SACD is, self-confessedly - see above, FAR better than mine, not to even start talking about selling a download...) to be able to make better and bigger recordings, he should raise ALL his prices, not just DSD-downloads, but that's his prerogative and his product and good luck to him.

I think differently, I put my money where my mouth is, price differently, and good luck to me...

Robert (von Bahr) robert@bis.se

"Lies" is a strong word.

I said " BIS and the few others who issue SACD are recording in PCM and package them in SACD"

Are your current issues not recorded in PCM? How is my statement a lie? I think we know that PCM cannot be played in an SACD without transcoded into DSD. Of I implicitly meant that it was "packaged" from PCM to DSD.

Anyway, unfortunately most customers who buy SACDs are audiophiles, most audiophiles that I know have given up on multichannel. Most multichannel people I know are using Japanese receivers for home theaters, with multiple speakers and giant subwoofers for maximum impact.

But that's just my own impression. You obviously have much better marketing intelligence than I do.

Frankly, as a customer who own many of your SACDs, most of them with very good music. I have to say when I read that your recordings are from 24/44.1 master, I was disappointed.