Page 1 of 9 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 205
  1. #1

    sacd_extract DSF output problem

    hi,

    Recently a LUMIN user complains to me about LUMIN can not play gapless on DSF files. There is "pop" noise between DSF tracks when playing a set of continues tracks from an album. The DSF file is extracted by sacd_extract from a ripped SACD ISO.

    So I asked the user to send me a few sample DSF files. And I also did some test on my own ISO and DSF files.

    My conclusion is the problem is the sacd_extract itself. Tried both old and the latest 0.37 version. sacd_extract created DSF is bad.

    Here are 2 sets of files to show the "pop" noise problem:
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2w...it?usp=sharing

    1 set are 2 DSF files extracted by sacd_extract from an ISO. Another set are 2 DFF files extracted by sacd_extract from the same ISO file.

    The 2 DSF files give "pop" noise between tracks. The 2 DFF files play perfectly smooth between tracks.

    I use AudioGate software to do some test with the DSD files. AudioGate can losslessly convert between DFF/DSF files, split or combine files. (just make a dummy twitter account to use AudioGate!)

    Using AudioGate, I created 2 sets of DFF files. 1 from the originally DFF files (open DFF and export as DFF) and 1 from the DSF files (open DSF and export as DFF).

    I use UltraCompare. You can use any Hex editor. Screen captures attached.
    dsdcompare1.jpg
    dsdcompare2.jpg
    dsdcompare3.jpg

    As you can see, the DSD data seems start from file position 0x0082. On the DSF file, DSD data ends at 0x015c4081. But the DFF file has more DSD data, and ends at 0x015c4401. The DSF file is missing some DSD data.

    Besides LUMIN, I also tested using a normal USB DSD DAC, a X-Sabre DAC via USB on a PC. Software players are foobar2000 and jRiver. The X-Sabre DAC has the same "pop" noise between tracks on those DSF files.

    Personally, I didn't notice the issue because I don't use DFF or DSF file. I extract SACD ISO file to DoP file (in FLAC mostly), using the special foobar2000 plugin (check this post for detail LUMIN - Audiophile Network Music Player).

    The DoP files play perfectly fine without any issue.

    So, what's the solution? Hopefully, there will be a newer version of sacd_extract with the fix on DSF file output.

    In the meanwhile, if you want DSF file, please use sacd_extract to create DFF file first. Then convert those DFF to DSF using AudioGate.

    Or you can do DoP file, if your system supports that.

    The sad news is, if you already done DSF extraction, you will need to do it again!

    I hope more people can test and report. And correct me if I'm wrong!
    associated with LUMIN - Audiophile Network Music Player

  2. #2
    Masters Level Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    6,768
    Blog Entries
    12
    You cannot really compare the files directly that way, rather you should just compare sizes of the DSD data based on headers. Both file formats can have extra information after the DSD data.

    It is of course still entirely possible that the DSF extractor has a bug that truncates tails...
    Signalyst - http://www.signalyst.com
    Developer of HQPlayer

  3. #3
    I was hoping you will notice!

    Please get the sample file and tell me I was wrong!
    associated with LUMIN - Audiophile Network Music Player

  4. #4
    retired, ... but active ;-) Synfreak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    743
    psme,

    I am using DFF and DSF files with my Foobar setup:
    Windows7 and/or 8, Foobar 1.2.9, sacd_input.dll 0.3.6, Mytek Stereo 128 DSD DAC via USB (latest drivers and firmware)

    I haven't had any problems (yet) with the playback, be it *.dff, *.dsf or straight from SACD ISOs.
    This is streaming the DSD data via ASIO driver (USB) to the Mytek.

    But I will download your test-files, and report back.
    Foobar2000+Win8/64 / Esoteric SA-60 --> Mytek Stereo 192-DSD DAC --> ME Geithain RL922K / Sennheiser HD 800 / AKG K1000 / AKG K500 / STAX SR-303+SRM-323II

  5. #5
    Masters Level Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    6,768
    Blog Entries
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by psme View Post
    I was hoping you will notice!

    Please get the sample file and tell me I was wrong!
    You are right.

    Track 10 in DSF is 3584 frames (= 448 bytes) short and track 11 is 29184 frames (= 3648 bytes) short. So the extractor doesn't know how to properly deal with partial blocks. So yes, there seems to be a bug there. Last, partial block is supposed to be zero-padded.
    Signalyst - http://www.signalyst.com
    Developer of HQPlayer

  6. #6
    retired, ... but active ;-) Synfreak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    743
    So, at least I had the time to check the posted files (DSF vs. DFF), and you're right, there is a (quite easy) notable "click/tick" sound between the tracks.

    I may never had experienced this with my own files, because I only have done some popular music up to now, and the silence between most tracks might "mask" the problem described here.

    As I'm not having any problems with tagging my *.dff files with foobar, I may consider *.dff to be the right spot here. We'll see ;-)
    Foobar2000+Win8/64 / Esoteric SA-60 --> Mytek Stereo 192-DSD DAC --> ME Geithain RL922K / Sennheiser HD 800 / AKG K1000 / AKG K500 / STAX SR-303+SRM-323II

  7. #7
    Thanks for confirming the issue!

    Yes in the sample files, the noise sounds like a "tick" noise. As there is DSD data missing, the actual "noise" can be random. On some tracks it may sound like "tick", on other tracks it may sound like "pop" or it may not be noticeable on some tracks...

    Before using DoP files, I also had some DSF files created using sacd_extract. I need to dig out the ISO and redo them.
    associated with LUMIN - Audiophile Network Music Player

  8. #8
    retired, ... but active ;-) Synfreak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    743
    Quote Originally Posted by psme View Post
    ...
    On some tracks it may sound like "tick", on other tracks it may sound like "pop" or it may not be noticeable on some tracks...
    Yes, it is - obviously (?) - connected to the material played back.
    On most of my own conversions (to *.dsf files), there is almost nothing to hear on track transitions, because of the "silence" between tracks.
    But I have listened closer to some of them, and once in a while there is a faint "tick" or "click" noise happening.

    Thankfully I have only extracted about 20 albumss up to now, so it isn't to hard to get it redone ;-)
    Foobar2000+Win8/64 / Esoteric SA-60 --> Mytek Stereo 192-DSD DAC --> ME Geithain RL922K / Sennheiser HD 800 / AKG K1000 / AKG K500 / STAX SR-303+SRM-323II

  9. #9
    Did someone post a bug report to inform the authors of sacd_extract?

  10. #10
    retired, ... but active ;-) Synfreak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    743
    As I do not have a Google account, ... no, not yet ...
    Foobar2000+Win8/64 / Esoteric SA-60 --> Mytek Stereo 192-DSD DAC --> ME Geithain RL922K / Sennheiser HD 800 / AKG K1000 / AKG K500 / STAX SR-303+SRM-323II

  11. #11
    Does this bug affect only ISO to DSF conversion or also ISO ripping from SACDs? Thanks.

  12. #12
    retired, ... but active ;-) Synfreak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    743
    Leica,

    Quote Originally Posted by Leica View Post
    Does this bug affect only ISO to DSF conversion or also ISO ripping from SACDs? Thanks.
    As the extracted DSDIFF (*.dff) files seem to be pretty fine and not affected, the problem is not with the "ripped" ISOs.

    I have checked all of my conversions/extracts to *.dsf files now, and there are some (faint) clicks here and there - especially noticable if monitored with headphones.
    Foobar2000+Win8/64 / Esoteric SA-60 --> Mytek Stereo 192-DSD DAC --> ME Geithain RL922K / Sennheiser HD 800 / AKG K1000 / AKG K500 / STAX SR-303+SRM-323II

  13. #13
    Synfreak, sorry I am confused. So are you saying that some of the ripped ISOs have clicks? So they are corrupt then.

    Can you please clarify? I have ripped some 300-400 SACDs into ISO format, so I am very concerned! I want them all to be bit perfect obviously...

  14. #14
    I thought my initial post was very clear on the subject:

    - ripped ISO, OK
    - foobar2000 DoP plugin created DoP files, OK
    - sacd_extract created DFF files, OK
    - sacd_extract created DSF files, BAD

    Direct playback of ISO file in foobar2000 or jRiver is perfectly fine.

    Also, using sacd_extract created DFF files, in AudioGate, export to DSF files, OK.

    I hope there is no confusion.
    associated with LUMIN - Audiophile Network Music Player

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by psme View Post
    I thought my initial post was very clear on the subject:

    - ripped ISO, OK
    - foobar2000 DoP plugin created DoP files, OK
    - sacd_extract created DFF files, OK
    - sacd_extract created DSF files, BAD

    Direct playback of ISO file in foobar2000 or jRiver is perfectly fine.

    Also, using sacd_extract created DFF files, in AudioGate, export to DSF files, OK.

    I hope there is no confusion.
    Thank you for the explanation. Crystal clear now!

  16. #16
    retired, ... but active ;-) Synfreak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    743
    Quote Originally Posted by Leica View Post
    Synfreak, sorry I am confused. So are you saying that some of the ripped ISOs have clicks? So they are corrupt then.

    Can you please clarify? I have ripped some 300-400 SACDs into ISO format, so I am very concerned! I want them all to be bit perfect obviously...
    Hi Leica!

    Sorry for the confusion, but as I wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Synfreak View Post
    As the extracted DSDIFF (*.dff) files seem to be pretty fine and not affected, the problem is not with the "ripped" ISOs.
    .
    I thought I was clear that I had only problems with extracted *.dsf files.

    @psme has summed it up already, so I hope you haven't got into panic mode too much.

    ;-)
    Foobar2000+Win8/64 / Esoteric SA-60 --> Mytek Stereo 192-DSD DAC --> ME Geithain RL922K / Sennheiser HD 800 / AKG K1000 / AKG K500 / STAX SR-303+SRM-323II

  17. #17
    Just out of curiously what exactly is the difference between DFF and DSF formats? I believe that DSF can hold artwork and tags whereas DFF like WAV cannot. Is this correct? Are there any other differences between the two?

  18. #18
    Masters Level Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    6,768
    Blog Entries
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by Leica View Post
    Just out of curiously what exactly is the difference between DFF and DSF formats? I believe that DSF can hold artwork and tags whereas DFF like WAV cannot. Is this correct? Are there any other differences between the two?
    The two are quite different. DSF is more clearly targeted as final output format with more strict channel maps for multichannel and support for ID3v2 metadata (including artwork, lyrics, etc).

    While DFF is more geared towards use as recording/mixing/mastering intermediate format. With features to support these kind of workflows.

    WAV can also hold ID3v2 metadata without problems, but it doesn't seem to be very common.
    Signalyst - http://www.signalyst.com
    Developer of HQPlayer

  19. #19
    Masters Level Member ted_b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Westlake, OH, USA
    Posts
    6,922
    Yes, I can hear the ever so slight tick on DSF my headphones on my Mytek DAC. When played back on my main rig Meitner I hear no clicks at all with either format, at rather loud levels.

    I have this thread sent to Mr Wicked's email, and to a couple folks in his circle. FYI.
    "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T.

    My JRiver screencast tutorials : http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f1...tml#post272960
    My DSD database: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ySk/edit#gid=0
    My SACD Ripping Guide (needs updating but still works): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...r%20v4.0.1.pdf

    US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com: www.nativedsd.com

  20. #20
    Related question: Out of caution, I'm extracting a bunch of iso files using sacd_extract and then converting them to dsf using Audiogate for tagging. Sound is great. But most of these are classical, and Audiogate strips all commas from the track names (surprising how many there are--eg., "Quartet in A major, K. 123, 1. Allegro"). This means I have to manually replace the commas for every !@#$ track name, which takes forever. I presume the comma stripping means that Audiogate is using commas as a delimiter. My question is, does anyone know how (setting, rule script, etc.) one might change the character Audiogate uses as a delimiter to something rare like £ so that it won't strip commas from track names? The free (mandatory tweet) version of Audiogate offers no user support . . . . and I couldn't find anything useful in the online manual.

    Thanks for any assistance!

  21. #21
    Freshman Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    45
    When you extract the files, use dsf as the format. dsf retains meta data while dff does not.

  22. #22
    @Ran: Read the first 20 posts in this thread from the beginning to see why I'm extracting DFF first and converting to DSF so I can use tagging in JRiver. I don't want clicks during playback. Using Audiogate to do the conversion works fine, except that it strips commas in filenames. For most pop music this doesn't matter, since few songs have commas in the track names. But I'm converting ~3000 classical albums, many of which have commas in track names.

  23. #23
    Masters Level Member ted_b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Westlake, OH, USA
    Posts
    6,922
    Couchjr,
    Have you extracted any of these albums earlier in DSF? I ask cuz if I ever decided that the tiny clicks bother me (they don't, and on some of my DSd-capable DACs the clicks are non-existent) I would do the following to any number of my 1800 already-ripped and extracted albums:
    1) extract the ISOs in DFF, then use JRiver to convert from DFF to DSF, not Audiogate. This is done by choosing the DFF files and then "convert to DSD" within JRiver, which simply always chooses DSF.
    2) if the albums were already in JRIver then I would simply do a paste tag into the new DSF files (see my JRIver tutorial more about tag pasting, but basically cntrl-c, and then cntrl-shiftft-v in the new album, making damn sure they are in the same order).

    Edit: Furthermore, you mention that DFF/Audiogate strips the commas from the track names. What track names? Where are you seeing commas originally? I ask cuz if they showing up in JRIver (in the ISO, for example) again simply copy and paste tag (not just paste). If the tracks are in the right order, you could do multiple albums at a time.

    Even more to the point, give me a classical album example. If I have it I'll try at my end.

    Oh...an I assume you've heard about Jesus's new extraction GUI app he made (and is free from his site)?
    http://www.sonore.us/apps2.html
    It's nice cuz ISOs don't need to be in the same folder as the app, and a simple mutliple-pick allows you to do batch processing.
    Last edited by ted_b; 01-24-2014 at 07:38 PM.
    "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T.

    My JRiver screencast tutorials : http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f1...tml#post272960
    My DSD database: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ySk/edit#gid=0
    My SACD Ripping Guide (needs updating but still works): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...r%20v4.0.1.pdf

    US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com: www.nativedsd.com

  24. #24
    Freshman Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    45
    I am using sacd_extract on a Linux machine and the clicks are barely noticeable if any. Some do not have clicks at all. Regardless, Audiogate has a minimal set of options for tagging.

    Ran

  25. #25
    Junior Member astrotoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    555
    Quote Originally Posted by ted_b View Post
    Couchjr,
    Have you extracted any of these albums earlier in DSF? I ask cuz if I ever decided that the tiny clicks bother me (they don't, and on some of my DSd-capable DACs the clicks are non-existent) I would do the following to any number of my 1800 already-ripped and extracted albums:
    My experience with some 400-500 SACD rips to dsf is very similar to Ted's. Until I read the post I hadn't noticed the clicks. They don't appear to be in the music in my rips, only in some of the quiet spaces between movements. I like the metadata in DSF. I have saved all the iso files from my rips, so if needed I can do them again when and if the bug is fixed with the clicks.

    Larry

Page 1 of 9 12345 ... LastLast