Thread: Gapless DSD in Pure Music, possible?

As the title says, is is possible to do gapless DSD in Pure Music? I can't get it to work for the life of me.

It works fine with AIFF files at various bit rates.

Am I missing a setting somewhere?

Thanks!

Hate to bump, but frustration is getting the better of me.

I know I'm not the only one running DSD with PM.

Originally Posted by harrypt

I know I'm not the only one running DSD with PM.

I switched from PM to A+ just as I began ripping my SACDs. I grew frustrated with PM's many annoyances and decided to give A+ a try. I was surprised to find that not only did A+ sound better, it performed better too in many ways. Gapless playback is one of those things A+ did a better job with.

Gapless with A+ achieves the standard we have come to expect from Apple products: it "just works". I was stunned to hear no gaps when playing the SACD rip of Dark Side of the Moon. With PM I always had to tag the tracks as gapless in iTunes as PM would insert a gap if that tag wasn't present. A+ just plays these tracks properly. A+ more quickly begins playback of a song as it seems to not wait as long for the song loaded into memory.

You can try to tag your tracks as gapless in iTunes to see if that helps. I think you'd be far better off trying A+. I think you will be surprised by how much better it sounds (especially the Beta). And you will be even more surprised by how much more predictably it behaves. (Your jaw may drop when you see how much more quickly DSD files load into A+.)

Originally Posted by harrypt

Hate to bump, but frustration is getting the better of me.

I know I'm not the only one running DSD with PM.

I've worked through PM's nuances and will report back on those in the main thread. I've tired to experiment with gapless playback a couple of times and have some repeatable strange behaviour which is that after selecting gapless for the album (with iTunes and PM running or just with iTunes alone), irrespective as to which track is selected, PM will play the last track you had playing (like a stuck record). Turning off gapless returns the album back to normal.

Have you reported to PM?

Have you updated to the latest version of PM?

I admit to having seen some unattractive quirks with PM, one of which is as you describe. However I've seen quite a bit of improvement in the past couple updates. In fact all my past complaints have been addressed and I find it quite stable...

Except I can't play gapless DSD.

Originally Posted by harrypt

Have you updated to the latest version of PM? I admit to having seen some unattractive quirks with PM

Yes I am religious in my dedication to keeping my apps up to date.

What finally got me to try A+ was frustration with the responsiveness of both the Apple IR remote and the iOS Remote app. The larger files ripped from SACD seemed to create an even greater lag in responsiveness.

To my surprise my remotes all started working perfectly predictably with A+. I got a friend to try A+, and his first comment back to me was something like "it sure is nice to see the music actually stop playing exactly when I hit the button on the remote.". Yup, sure was nice.

I noticed lots of other similar improvements with A+. For example, A+ identified on its own that my DAC could play DSD and it configured itself to pass on DSD. PM needed to be told in a cryptic fashion that required me to read the manual.

I've not reported these issues to PM as the sound quality in A+ was a big improvement to my ears, and I wasn't sure how to report this. I had turned off upsampling in PM because the improvements it brought seemed to come at a price. Upsampling in A+ didn't have any downside that I could hear. And Direct Mode improved the sound even further. I would actually rank the $50 I spent on a A+ to be in the top 3 in terms of bang for the buck upgrades.

What put the final nail in PM's coffin was the misleading text they posted on their website about Direct Mode in A+. No way I'm going to contribute to PM being a better product after reading that BS.

Originally Posted by kennyb123

[...]

I've not reported these issues to PM...

[...]

What put the final nail in PM's coffin was the misleading text they posted on their website about Direct Mode in A+. No way I'm going to contribute to PM being a better product after reading that BS.

Hello,

It's impossible for us to monitor all forums on the Internet, because we focus our support efforts on customers who contact us directly via email or telephone.

kennyb123, yes, it's true that we have no record of you ever contacting our tech support.

But what is "misleading" or "BS" about the information that is posted on our website? What is the basis for saying this? Can you explain in detail, please? If there is something that is in error, we would want to correct it.

I thought this thread was supposed to be about Pure Music and DSD gapless playback? Since I was alerted to this thread (and everyone reading this, if you contact us directly for customer support, you will get the best information right from the source), Pure Music does not support gapless playback for DSD format tracks, because we are unaware of any commercial DSD downloads needing this, and unfortunately we would not have access to "ripped" SACDs for testing this, because as a company located in the United States we operate within legal guidelines. If someone can suggest a way to test gapless DSD playback without needing material ripped from SACDs, we would be more than happy to implement it; please contact our tech support at the email listed on our website's CONTACT page.

Thank you,

Rob Robinson

Channel D Support

Originally Posted by myco

kennyb123, yes, it's true that we have no record of you ever contacting our tech support.

Of course you wouldn't. I sent you numerous mails from my personal email account and not from the account on this site. You once even very kindly introduced a new feature to solve a problem I had with CPU utilization during screen sharing. I was very appreciative of this.

Originally Posted by myco

But what is "misleading" or "BS" about the information that is posted on our website? What is the basis for saying this? Can you explain in detail, please? If there is something that is in error, we would want to correct it.

This first paragraph in this post nails it:

PM Comments On Direct Mode and Integer Mode

Rob I apologize for venting my frustration over your comments here publicly. I own two of your products and have received excellent support for you. I just thought it was unfair of you to misrepresent a thread on this site on which I've been an active participant. I thought it was fantastic of Damien to have an open beta this way, and yet the comments on your site make it sound like we're all just having a miserable time. Not true and not fair.

Originally Posted by myco

If someone can suggest a way to test gapless DSD playback without needing material ripped from SACDs

It might be just as simple as getting getting gapless to play properly for other formats without having to tag the tracks as gapless in iTunes. I no longer have to tag my AIFF files as gapless in iTunes. A+ just plays them as gapless, I think, because there is no delay to load the song in memory in A+. It was my impression that PM added a pause in playback, even with hybrid memory play enabled. Eliminate that pause and gapless playback might be achieved with DSD files too.

In terms of testing, must these be ripped from SACD? Maybe you could purchase some downloadable DSD files of a classical piece that should play gaplessly.

Originally Posted by myco

If someone can suggest a way to test gapless DSD playback without needing material ripped from SACDs, we would be more than happy to implement it

Maybe try slicing one of the DSD files you now use for testing and see if you can get this to play gapless.

Originally Posted by kennyb123

Of course you wouldn't. I sent you numerous mails from my personal email account and not from the account on this site. You once even very kindly introduced a new feature to solve a problem I had with CPU utilization during screen sharing. I was very appreciative of this.

Then you used a different email than the one you used to purchase Pure Music and an upgrade to Pure Vinyl (why?). Can you send us a support message then please, referencing this thread, so that we can put two and two together?

Originally Posted by kennyb123

Rob I apologize for venting my frustration over your comments here publicly. I own two of your products and have received excellent support for you. I just thought it was unfair of you to misrepresent a thread on this site on which I've been an active participant. I thought it was fantastic of Damien to have an open beta this way, and yet the comments on your site make it sound like we're all just having a miserable time. Not true and not fair.

Please re-read the topic on our website. We do not name Audirvarna. The topic pertains to any application that would use Direct Mode. However it so happens that Audirvana does have a thread about Direct Mode, and that the issue of kernel panics comes up frequently. And it is simply our position to make people aware of the risks. Some folks will be lucky (perhaps because they have a combination of computer, OS and audio device that happens to work without issue), and some will not.

But since you haven’t offered proof of why the information on our website is “BS,” and as this amounts to a public attack on our integrity, to be fair, I would respectfully ask you to retract that statement.

Originally Posted by kennyb123

It might be just as simple as getting getting gapless to play properly for other formats without having to tag the tracks as gapless in iTunes. I no longer have to tag my AIFF files as gapless in iTunes. A+ just plays them as gapless, I think, because there is no delay to load the song in memory in A+. It was my impression that PM added a pause in playback, even with hybrid memory play enabled. Eliminate that pause and gapless playback might be achieved with DSD files too.

There is a reason that Pure Music has a slight delay with Hybrid memory play while the others don’t seem to, and unless you are a programmer you might not understand the reasons. The instant response is due to using some UNIX sleight of hand involving hard disk memory mapping, instead of specifically loading the entire contents of the track(s) into RAM, which Pure Music does. So, maybe you aren’t getting the memory play that you think you are. But I am unwilling to say more to elucidate this, lest I be accused again of “attacking” something, when I might only be responding with clarification to a comment that you made.

Originally Posted by kennyb123

Maybe you could purchase some downloadable DSD files of a classical piece that should play gaplessly.

We can’t purchase and download everything out there to find something that is gapless... however, if you know of a particular title at one of those labels that is gapless, we would be happy to purchase it and use it as a test case (which should cover it).

Originally Posted by kennyb123

Maybe try slicing one of the DSD files you now use for testing and see if you can get this to play gapless.

If only it were that simple... one would have to carefully rewrite the headers for the snipped files, for it to work. That is, unfortunately, easier said than done.

Thank you,

Rob Robinson

Originally Posted by zettelsm

Rob from PM states:
Geez Rob, that's not only a little self-righteous, it's not even accurate. As the owner of my SACDs I've got the right to fair-use of my property. That is the law here in the US.

No different than making tape copies of my LPs back in the day, or making a VHS or DVD copy of my own movies.

Naturally, I am aware of the concept of “fair use,” having been of legal age during the time frame when that doctrine was established. There is also something called DMCA, which is at odds with the notion of fair use, and so copying SACDs is a quite different matter than copying LPs and video tapes.

Are you a lawyer? Because what you are saying sounds like legal advice. I really would like to have some concrete legal assurance or case work showing that the matter of copying SACDs has been conclusively settled, instead of having to pay our legal folks thousands of dollars for an opinion on the matter, which may be proven worthless by the courts anyway, should it come to that. So my opinion and anyone else’s about whether I have the right to decrypt and rip SACDs doesn’t matter until it has been settled by the courts. Do you expect us to place our company at risk to do this?

Originally Posted by zettelsm

Channel Classics, Cybele, MA Recordings, Blue Coast Music, to name a few.

I know about these sites, having been involved with the DoP / DSD over PCM specification from the very beginning, and having the first music player software that supported native DSD playback (which Playback Designs demonstrated in early 2011).

But as I said in a reply to another comment above, we can’t rationally purchase and download all the DSD albums out there to find one that is gapless... however, if you know of a particular title at one of those labels that is gapless, we would be happy to purchase it.

Originally Posted by zettelsm

Instead of inaccurate and gratuitious attacks on A+ or people who point this out, perhaps you should concentrate on improving your product.

Anyone who has come to Channel D for assistance with products knows that they should not expect robotic, sterile and uninformative responses typical of most companies. We go out of our way to treat customers personally, patiently, fairly and curteously, and all we would like is the same in return, so I am taken aback in seeing my post (or the information on our website?) characterized as being “inaccurate and gratuitious attacks.”

I would like to ask you to back up your assertion. Can you explain in detail what is “inaccurate” (I take it you mean the information on our website), and why, please?

If you take a look at the pertinent topic on our website, it speaks in general of the issues revolving around Direct Mode, particularly kernel panics. Nowhere is Audirvana mentioned.

As evidence of the risk of Direct Mode, we did indicate a thread on a popular website that contained numerous reports of kernel panics in software employing Direct Mode.

It is a testament to the nature of the risks involving Direct Mode that this one, single, focused issue (kernel panics) hasn’t been resolved in over two months of work (counting from the first post in that thread), in the product that you cite.

This is not an “attack” on anyone about this. We just want to be sure that first-time computer audio enthusiasts won’t encounter a serious problem that could cause them to walk away from computer audio.

Regarding your comments about “improving [our] product,” then should I expect a similar degree of indignation regarding companies that copy original ideas from others? If not, then might that be how such companies (legitimately and ethically) should go about seeing how their product is “improved?” Please see my recent related post in another thread.

Thank you,

Rob Robinson

Originally Posted by myco

Then you used a different email than the one you used to purchase Pure Music and an upgrade to Pure Vinyl (why?). Can you send us a support message then please, referencing this thread, so that we can put two and two together?

Your customers should be able to post comments about your products without disclosing PII (personally-identifiable information) to you, shouldn't they? For what reason are you seeking to put two and two together? It's not that I'm trying to hide. I just find it a little disconcerting that you are trying to identify me.

Who I am shouldn't matter here. The only thing that should matter is the substance of my remarks.

Originally Posted by myco

But since you haven’t offered proof of why the information on our website is “BS,” and as this amounts to a public attack on our integrity, to be fair, I would respectfully ask you to retract that statement.

This is the statement on your site with which I take issue:

"On a popular computer audio oriented website, a thread describing a "direct mode" feature added to another third party player product has grown in only about three weeks since that product was released to at least 13 pages of reports generated involving kernel panics, improperly functioning sound and the like."

It's my personal opinion that it is BS that you omit any mention of the fact that this product is in a public beta and that the developer initiated the thread to solicit beta feedback. You also leave out the fact that those 13 pages of reports contain many positive comments. [A few quotes from just the first page: "the sound is the best I've ever heard", "Amazing sound", "Great player! Direct mode sounds really good".]

Strike that paragraph and I will retract my statement.

Originally Posted by myco

There is a reason that Pure Music has a slight delay with Hybrid memory play while the others don’t seem to, and unless you are a programmer you might not understand the reasons. The instant response is due to using some UNIX sleight of hand involving hard disk memory mapping, instead of specifically loading the entire contents of the track(s) into RAM, which Pure Music does. So, maybe you aren’t getting the memory play that you think you are.

I wouldn't mind AT ALL if the first second or two of playback came straight from disk instead of memory. That's a tradeoff I'd happily live with if it meant not having to tag tracks as gapless in iTunes. I can't tell you how many albums I just skipped over when using Pure Music.

Originally Posted by myco

We can’t purchase and download everything out there to find something that is gapless... however, if you know of a particular title at one of those labels that is gapless, we would be happy to purchase it and use it as a test case (which should cover it).

Fair point. I'll see if I can find something.

Originally Posted by myco

If only it were that simple... one would have to carefully rewrite the headers for the snipped files, for it to work. That is, unfortunately, easier said than done.

You said this in regards to my suggestion to "maybe try slicing one of the DSD files". I would think that AudioGate might write the headers just fine. Keep in mind that gapless playback of DSD would benefit recordings made with a Korg DSD recorder too. Tracks can be split during recording where the intention may be to still have those tracks play gapless.

kennyb123:

Do you have some agenda here? Since you've hijacked my thread and used it to start a peeing match with the manufacturer why don't we look at some more pressing issues with A+ because I feel a bit snookered by my purchase.

You were one that made the suggestion that I try A+. I did, it cost me $50 and I think it leaves a lot more to be desired than PM, both in reliability and especially in the area of sound quality. So how was I to know that A+ was a beta? Where exactly does it say that on their website in the series of pages that I followed to make a purchase? Why would I think I'm getting a beta for that much money, and why are they the only company selling beta software rather than running a beta trial?

Originally Posted by harrypt

kennyb123o you have some agenda here?

No I do not.

That's very unfair of you to level that accusation. I jumped on this thread to offer you a solution that would allow you to play your DSD files gapless. Your initial requests for help went unanswered. I just thought I could help.

Originally Posted by harrypt

Since you've hijacked my thread and used it to start a peeing match with the manufacturer .

I offered my honest opinions about PM and the manufacturer pounced on me. And I'm to blame? Seriously?

Until I responded you were the only one who responded to your thread. Your first post went unanswered for a week before I jumped in. Very unkind of you to accuse me of hijacking your thread. I'm still the only person who offered you a solution for playing DSD files gapless.

Originally Posted by harrypt

You were one that made the suggestion that I try A+. I did, it cost me $50 and I think it leaves a lot more to be desired than PM, both in reliability and especially in the area of sound quality.

You're right: I told you to try it. I didn't tell you to buy it. I assumed you would take advantage of the 30 day trial. That's what I did as you can see my posts that follow.

Audirvana Plus with iTunes Integration

Audirvana Plus: Direct Mode

Originally Posted by harrypt

So how was I to know that A+ was a beta? Where exactly does it say that on their website in the series of pages that I followed to make a purchase? Why would I think I'm getting a beta for that much money, and why are they the only company selling beta software rather than running a beta trial?

Good gosh man. There are two versions available, the standard shipping version (1.3.5) and a beta that features Direct Mode (now at 1.3.9.7). The beta version has some issues still, hence it's not been officially released. The standard shipping version is rock solid from a quality perspective in my opinion, but the beta provides better sound quality through Direct Mode. Both versions can be downloaded from their web site.

Amazing - I try to help out a fellow audiophile by suggesting software that has really improved my listening enjoyment - and what do I get for it? I get blamed for making him spend $50 when a trial version is available. I get accused of having an agenda. And I get accused for hijacking a thread that went unanswered until I jumped in. Good gosh.

HarryPt - at any point had you needed help with A+ or PM and sent me a private mail, I would have taken the time to answer your questions and helped you the best I could. It's disappointing that you have attacked me as you have here. You really should apologize.

Originally Posted by freddie40

The comments and attitude of Rob plus the lack of Direct Mode and gapless support in DSD should make everyone Run, not walk, from Pure Music. As far as I am concerned Pure Music is on my least recommended list.

Dave

Run, don't walk, from Pure Music (Maybe this should be my new tag line.

Isn't that a tad harsh to say?

re the DSD gapless side of it; I had been emailing PM about using DSDs with PM (feedback is on PS3 thread) and as this issue came up I also offered a way to help with it. Rob replied to me that they had already found a way to begin testing that. No doubt that way must be legally cleaner than other solutions (from his perspective). I think it's says more about PM users that no one reported this issue beforehand. I've just ripped my collection a couple of weeks back and I doubt I am first person to solely use PM on my rips. The gapless issue from what i managed to recreate is quite a big bug (not just mere gaps - #5 below).

Should have PM previously tested that more throughly? I would answer yes.
Do their reasons given carry reasonable merit? I would also answer yes.
Is that a reason to run for the hills? No way!

Where we are at: (A+ vs PM) - reliability:
A+ has found a way to use Integer Mode via Direct Mode on Lion & ML.
PM has not.
PM says it's very risky - e.g. KPs.
A+ beta is still work-in-progress and KPs have been happening (fair enough - it's beta).
Is seems A+ (non-beta) crashes at time for some users e.g. Confused about Audirvana Plus and Pure Music pmbmf files (#5 & #6) - assumption here is that the different links on A+'s website do in fact download different beta / non-beta software - i don't know - i haven't tried.

Assuming I'm ~correct with the above, then what we basically have is innovation which hasn't yet been fully developed and therefore not fully tested so why on earth would you say "Run"? I think that comment is very premature. The next month or so will be interesting to see how it develops - if A+ does develop with stability and no KPs then I still wouldn't say 'run' but i might say 'look to switch' . Perhaps around that time we can get a poll going? I would also agree that I do have some bias; for me, PM has been as solid as a rock, and I've been in CA for just over a year now, and could not complain about PM at all (great support too). (yes, it is my sole software -> no other comparisons - none 'needed'/wanted - if it works well enough why break it ? ).

Originally Posted by harrypt

kennyb123: Do you have some agenda here?

@harrypt - I would just say that Kenny is undoubtedly excited regarding this technical innovation and has also said about SQ and ease of use when it comes to importing DSDs. This is also supported by quite a few people on this board, so his only 'agenda' is to share that excitement, and I am glad he did.

Originally Posted by freddie40

Run, don't walk, from Pure Music

I suspect from the language in your first post that you don't own PM and so couldn't have given it a long term test and I see that you don't even have a DSD capable DAC.

So your statement is clear, your opinion of Rob notwithstanding, direct mode works just fine in PM with the older operating system, but not the newer while it is often unstable with A+.

Given your personal inexperience with the subject I suspect you are saying things with the anonymity of the internet that you wouldn't in person. Maybe you could either elaborate on your opinion with some valuable information or spare us the boorish behavior.

Originally Posted by harrypt

direct mode works just fine in PM with the older operating system, but not the newer while it is often unstable with A+.

You are confusing direct mode with integer mode. PM has never had direct mode.

Originally Posted by Jay192

Isn't that a tad harsh to say?

I agree that it is a tad harsh to say that one should run from PM. I purchased PM just a little over two years ago and have enjoyed many, many hours of listening since then. As you can see from the following post, I was quite pleased with the sound quality of PM at one point:

AudiogoN Forums: Is Pure Music 1.8 better?

(yes that's me)

Originally Posted by Jay192

re the DSD gapless side of it

The bigger deal for me with A+ was how it handled gapless playback of my AIFFs ripped from CDs. I have many, many more CD-rips than SACD-rips. One factor contributing to my decision to switching to A+ was the fact that I no longer had to tag my AIFFs as gapless in iTunes. I figure there are hundreds of songs in my library that flow directly into the next song without a gap. That I would have to go in an tag every one of these if I'd like them to play without a gap was something I was never too thrilled with. But I just assumed that this was the way it had to be if I wanted to have the benefit of memory play. So I never really saw this as a bug that needed to be reported to Rob.

Now it could be that Damien isn't implementing as pure of a memory play feature as Rob. And that's very likely the case. But if I get better usability along with better sound then it matters not how memory play is actually implemented.

Originally Posted by Jay192

I think it's says more about PM users that no one reported this issue beforehand.

I never got this far in my use of PM for playing DSD files. I had imported only a few DSD files just to compare to A+, but didn't get as far as noticing that PM couldn't play them gapless.

Originally Posted by Jay192

Where we are at: (A+ vs PM) - reliability:
A+ has found a way to use Integer Mode via Direct Mode on Lion & ML.
PM has not.
PM says it's very risky - e.g. KPs.
A+ beta is still work-in-progress and KPs have been happening (fair enough - it's beta).

I've yet to have a single KP with any of the A+ betas. But I've had lots of stuttering and once it begins the only way to stop it is to restart A+. That's a pain for sure. But it's a pain I've been willing to live with given all the other benefits I gain from A+ as stated in my comments above.

Originally Posted by Jay192

Is seems A+ (non-beta) crashes at time for some users e.g.

Interesting that both users reporting that crashes in the non-beta A+ mention playing the PM proxies with A+.

Originally Posted by Jay192

Assuming I'm ~correct with the above, then what we basically have is innovation which hasn't yet been fully developed and therefore not fully tested so why on earth would you say "Run"? I think that comment is very premature.

Yes, "run" was overstating things.

I think A+ should be judged by the regularly shipping version 1.3.5 - not the beta as it's still not 100% certain that Direct Mode will be perfectly stable. And when I put 1.3.5 up against the latest version of PM, 1.3.5 came out the winner. That Direct Mode further improved the sound was icing on the cake. YMMV of course.

Originally Posted by Jay192

The next month or so will be interesting to see how it develops - if A+ does develop with stability and no KPs then I still wouldn't say 'run' but i might say 'look to switch' .

It's going to be really interesting to see what happens if Damien can pull off a stable version of Direct Mode. His competitors are going to be put in a tough spot as they may have to attempt implementing this too.

Originally Posted by Jay192

I would also agree that I do have some bias; for me, PM has been as solid as a rock, and I've been in CA for just over a year now, and could not complain about PM at all (great support too). (yes, it is my sole software -> no other comparisons - none 'needed'/wanted - if it works well enough why break it ? ).

Glad to hear PM is working so well for you.

Originally Posted by Jay192

@harrypt - I would just say that Kenny is undoubtedly excited regarding this technical innovation and has also said about SQ and ease of use when it comes to importing DSDs. This is also supported by quite a few people on this board, so his only 'agenda' is to share that excitement, and I am glad he did.

Thank you very much for the support Jay.

Originally Posted by freddie40

[...]

I do own Pure Music and have received extremely poor customer service, so poor that I had to stop using it because it wasn't stable on my system. Rob blew me off when I asked for support. He also blew me off at RMAF.

[...]

Dave

Run, don't walk, from Pure Music

I checked our customer records. We only have one user named “Dave” in Aurora, CO, who also has a Mac Mini and an Ayre QB9, so that must be you. (Actually, from a search, I found that your last name was revealed in a system log you posted in another thread, so it definitely is you.) You purchased Pure Music in late 2010.

The last email we received from you was in January 2011, pertaining to an issue with the Remote on an iPad, and we asked for more information about your system, before seeing your reply indicating that you had found the cause of the issue. Here is the last email that you sent to us:

-------

I found the problem. *I was playing gapless music and had the button "Don't Increment iTunes selected track in Gapless Play" unselected. *Turns out this was causing all of my problems.

Thanks,

Dave

-------

It didn’t seem that this matter required any further communication from us...?

I also looked over our other earlier communications, and they were all resolved, punctuated by replies from you to the effect of “problem solved.” So can you please explain what was “poor” about our customer support?

As far as Rocky Mountain, if I am in the exhibit room, I take time to speak with anyone that wants to engage in conversation, and spend as much time as anyone wants (unless the clock hits 6 PM; sorry, closing time at the end of a long day, or I am needed to speak with a journalist, who only can stay a few minutes). You give the impression that you were deliberately ignored or dismissed, which would not happen. I am sure that anyone who has come to our exhibit room can attest to the attention received.

Rob Robinson