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  1. #1
    Masters Level Member ted_b's Avatar
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    DSD tag editor found; another vote for DSF

    As I have been merrily ripping my SACD personal collection, downloading DSD files, and creating huge libraries of great DSD music I have been fighting the beta vs VHS thing. Sony and Philips had created two very slightly different DSD containers, one called DSDIFF (aka DIFF or DFF) and one called DSF. The extraction tools (and the onset of various DSD download sites) have basically given us DSD fans a choice. I began ripping in DIFF but later moved to DSF due to the rumor/fact/theory/hope/ that it had slightly better metadata (tags) out of the box. However, since handling DSD has been a very new thing with software players the metadata support for either has been "spotty" at best. And forget about editing these poorly inconsistent tags. The best bet was to edit the proxy files (AIFF) that the Mac players like Pure music and A+ created. It gave one a sense of decent search capabilities within Apple Remote, even though the actual DSD files were still identified only by ugly filenames. Once iIinstalled a DSD-capable Linux MPD the same issue arose...poor tagging support (and no proxy faux tags), although shame on me I only first checked my DIFF files (see below). Note: Our own Jurgen aka Lintweaker, the author of the DSD capability in MPD, has better metadata support coming but not until the MPD gods approve the codes.

    Then came plug ins like the SACD plugin for Foobar, and the ones for J River, to name two. I tried the Foobar one (not necessarily for playback but for tagging support) and found that it worked ok...as long as you stayed in Foobar. But Foobar's plug in, as per its co-author, Maxim, converts tags into UTF-16...and MPD does not yet support Unicode. Argh. His recommendation was to try J River as a possible tag solution.

    Well, damn!! J River MC 17 is a godsend for the DSF format. It allows very simple yet comprehensive batch tagging, album art support (In J River) and great overall feel. As you can see below the same is not true for DIFF, but who cares!! I'm re-extracting all my DIFF stuff in DSF and not looking back. Furthermore, now that I moved all my DSF over for the MPD server to see (Auraliti's PK90USB) the basic tag support ain't bad at all; I can live with it now. And as long as your album names are recognizable (i.e don't use "DSD" or "SACD" suffixes in the album name) MPD will likely find the album art too. (Again, not for DIFF, only DSF).

    diff-vs-dsf-1.jpg

    So, I'm going to give a big vote to DSF, and tell those DSD audio fans out there that the Windows-only J River is a very nice editing solution for tags. NOTE: I can't comment on its sonics (users seem to love it), as that is not what this experiment and post is about. I use primarliy Linux MPD, and also some Mac OSX for my music playback.
    "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T.

    My JRiver screencast tutorials : http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f1...tml#post272960
    My DSD database: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ySk/edit#gid=0
    My SACD Ripping Guide (needs updating but still works): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...r%20v4.0.1.pdf

    US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com: www.nativedsd.com

  2. #2
    Senior Member Esprit's Avatar
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    Have you update your Guide? Where I can find it?

  3. #3
    Masters Level Member ted_b's Avatar
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    I will PM you with the link, but no I haven't updated the pdf since the OSX scripts or the J River tag discovery. I'm waiting for Ken to post the scripts officially. My link will have them, though.
    "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T.

    My JRiver screencast tutorials : http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f1...tml#post272960
    My DSD database: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ySk/edit#gid=0
    My SACD Ripping Guide (needs updating but still works): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...r%20v4.0.1.pdf

    US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com: www.nativedsd.com

  4. #4
    Junior Member dallasjustice's Avatar
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    That's right. Jriver is gut.
    THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX

  5. #5
    Sounds cool. Where does one find copies of Jriver?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by TarnishedEars View Post
    Sounds cool. Where does one find copies of Jriver?
    Let me google that for you

  7. #7
    Nevermind... ( I guess that I've become used-to the download-points for any software having to do with DSD ripping as not being easily located via google. This is clearly a major exception to the rule. )

  8. #8
    audiogate.png

    It seems that AudioGate handles cover art with DSDIFF files.

  9. #9

    From the AudioGate website

    A full complement of editing functionality, with support for editing in the DSD domain.

    Edit In the past, editing of data recorded in DSD format required extremely expensive pro audio equipment, and this acted as a significant impediment to DSD recording. AudioGate is able to carry out all of the basic editing operations needed for a stereo recorder --- splitting and joining songs, fade processing, volume adjustments, L/R balance adjustments, normalization, cutting DC components, editing marks --- all while staying within the domain of each supported format, including 1-bit DSD.

    The DSD editing engine within AudioGate rivals those of professional DSD workstations. Since all DSD-based editing calculations are done while maintaining the sample rate, all the way up to 64 times (2.8224 MHz) or 128 times (5.6448 MHz), you don't need to worry about audio quality being impaired by the decimation filter that accompanies PCM conversion. "Direct output mode" allows unnecessary recalculations to be automatically bypassed, ensuring that the purity of the original audio source is completely retained in the output file.

    A rich array of editing functionality for metadata such as song title, artist name, and attached graphics etc. is also a benefit provided by AudioGate.

  10. #10
    I'm a newbie to this but DSD to PCM conversion with Weiss Saracon

    I also understand that Audiogate only handles stereo and not multichannel.
    Speakers: Egglestonworks Andra III front left/right and centre; Egglestonworks Rosa as surround; Rel Stentor II subwoofer. Synergistic Research Element Copper speaker cable. Cardas Clear Light interconnect. Amps: Krel FPB-200 and 2 x Krell KAV 150a. Theta Casablanca IV with multichannel Dirac Live. Oppo 103. Isotek GII Titan power conditioning. Acoustic treatments: 2 x RPG Modex Plates; RPG 100mm BAD panels; RPG Skylines.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJJ View Post
    I'm a newbie to this but DSD to PCM conversion with Weiss Saracon

    I also understand that Audiogate only handles stereo and not multichannel.
    I'm interested in the Weiss Saracon software, but haven't been able to find any information about purchasing. From what I can tell, you need some sort of hardware component + the software, and haven't been find any info on pricing.

    Anyone know how to actually try / purchase this product?
    John Walker
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  12. #12
    Speakers: Egglestonworks Andra III front left/right and centre; Egglestonworks Rosa as surround; Rel Stentor II subwoofer. Synergistic Research Element Copper speaker cable. Cardas Clear Light interconnect. Amps: Krel FPB-200 and 2 x Krell KAV 150a. Theta Casablanca IV with multichannel Dirac Live. Oppo 103. Isotek GII Titan power conditioning. Acoustic treatments: 2 x RPG Modex Plates; RPG 100mm BAD panels; RPG Skylines.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
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    Thanks, JJJ. Answers my question, anyway - too rich for my blood
    John Walker
    IT Account Exec

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    MacBook Pro running Roon > HQPlayer > Airport Extreme > Airport Extreme > generic Ethernet > mRendu NAA > LH Labs LightSpeed 2G USB > LH Labs LPS > LH Labs Geek Pulse X Infinity > Alpha Prime

    Home Theater
    2x4TB HD > generic firewire cable > Mac Mini running Roon > LH Labs LightSpeed 2G USB > iFi Micro iDSD > Blue Jeans Cable RCA > Pioneer Elite SC-81 > MartinLogan Motion series home theater speakers + M&K subwoofer

  14. #14

    jRiver play back through Geekout....

    Can tag ISO (SACD Rips) disk images.... I use Audirvana for the EASY of playback, jRiver's metadata display is the best....

    Regards


    Quote Originally Posted by ted_b View Post
    As I have been merrily ripping my SACD personal collection, downloading DSD files, and creating huge libraries of great DSD music I have been fighting the beta vs VHS thing. Sony and Philips had created two very slightly different DSD containers, one called DSDIFF (aka DIFF or DFF) and one called DSF. The extraction tools (and the onset of various DSD download sites) have basically given us DSD fans a choice. I began ripping in DIFF but later moved to DSF due to the rumor/fact/theory/hope/ that it had slightly better metadata (tags) out of the box. However, since handling DSD has been a very new thing with software players the metadata support for either has been "spotty" at best. And forget about editing these poorly inconsistent tags. The best bet was to edit the proxy files (AIFF) that the Mac players like Pure music and A+ created. It gave one a sense of decent search capabilities within Apple Remote, even though the actual DSD files were still identified only by ugly filenames. Once iIinstalled a DSD-capable Linux MPD the same issue arose...poor tagging support (and no proxy faux tags), although shame on me I only first checked my DIFF files (see below). Note: Our own Jurgen aka Lintweaker, the author of the DSD capability in MPD, has better metadata support coming but not until the MPD gods approve the codes.

    Then came plug ins like the SACD plugin for Foobar, and the ones for J River, to name two. I tried the Foobar one (not necessarily for playback but for tagging support) and found that it worked ok...as long as you stayed in Foobar. But Foobar's plug in, as per its co-author, Maxim, converts tags into UTF-16...and MPD does not yet support Unicode. Argh. His recommendation was to try J River as a possible tag solution.

    Well, damn!! J River MC 17 is a godsend for the DSF format. It allows very simple yet comprehensive batch tagging, album art support (In J River) and great overall feel. As you can see below the same is not true for DIFF, but who cares!! I'm re-extracting all my DIFF stuff in DSF and not looking back. Furthermore, now that I moved all my DSF over for the MPD server to see (Auraliti's PK90USB) the basic tag support ain't bad at all; I can live with it now. And as long as your album names are recognizable (i.e don't use "DSD" or "SACD" suffixes in the album name) MPD will likely find the album art too. (Again, not for DIFF, only DSF).

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	diff vs dsf 1.jpg 
Views:	2541 
Size:	146.7 KB 
ID:	475

    So, I'm going to give a big vote to DSF, and tell those DSD audio fans out there that the Windows-only J River is a very nice editing solution for tags. NOTE: I can't comment on its sonics (users seem to love it), as that is not what this experiment and post is about. I use primarliy Linux MPD, and also some Mac OSX for my music playback.

  15. #15
    But what about amending the metadata (retagging) In ISO (SACD RIPS)???

  16. #16
    Masters Level Member ted_b's Avatar
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    Yes, my quote you used is over 2 years old. Windows JRIver will allow you to edit ISO tags. As I have stated here quite a bit lately, for my JRiver/Jplay (i.e Windows Server 2012) setup I mostly use ISOs now (with the custom view showing only the correct channels for the correct setup, i.e 2 channel tracks for my stereo setup, 3 channels or greater for my multichannel setup), rather than spending the time extracting to DSF. However, many players like Linux streamers, etc do not read and play back SACD ISO files.
    "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T.

    My JRiver screencast tutorials : http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f1...tml#post272960
    My DSD database: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ySk/edit#gid=0
    My SACD Ripping Guide (needs updating but still works): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...r%20v4.0.1.pdf

    US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com: www.nativedsd.com

  17. #17
    Hey Ted,

    The reason you're using ISO's now is mainly a matter of convenience or do you believe there's a sonic benefit as well?

    Joel

  18. #18
    Masters Level Member ted_b's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joelha View Post
    Hey Ted,

    The reason you're using ISO's now is mainly a matter of convenience or do you believe there's a sonic benefit as well?

    Joel
    Purely convenience (since there seems to be no sonic hit, either way).
    "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T.

    My JRiver screencast tutorials : http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f1...tml#post272960
    My DSD database: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ySk/edit#gid=0
    My SACD Ripping Guide (needs updating but still works): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...r%20v4.0.1.pdf

    US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com: www.nativedsd.com

  19. #19
    At the risk of reviving an old thread for nothing, just thought I'd ask Ted if you knew how the .dsf tagging/reading capabilities for linux MPD was going? I've recently installed a dual boot Linux on top of WIndows8.1 with a shared Music drive to allow playback from both, using MusicBee on Win and GMPC (an mpd client), on Linux.

    With help from a few downloadable exe's, including MP3Tag for .dsf tag creation & editing, my Windows build is pretty much perfect and Linux is only missing .dsf tag reading capabilities.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by storris View Post
    ... and Linux is only missing .dsf tag reading capabilities.
    Well, that was short lived. Using the Sonore iso2dsd app, I've discovered that files extracted within Linux have readable tags! I'm using mpd via GMPC on Ubuntu with, I think, just about every available 'suggested' package for tag reading.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by storris View Post
    Well, that was short lived...
    And so it continues. I appear to have been ham fisted with the Tag editor (Mp3Tag) and selected unreadable encoding. Problem is solved, swapped ID3v2.4 (UTF16 [WTF]) for something more sensible, and Linux is now Tagvarna.

    ps, sorry for the thread spam, CA wont let me edit earlier posts.

  22. #22
    Sophomore Member blaven's Avatar
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    In the past week I have purchased albums from Sound Liaison, and blue Coast records, that ended up being DFFfiles with no album artwork, or other meta-data, besides the song name.

    Both sites were super helpful and I ultimately downloaded PCM at Soundd Liaison and DSF with Blue Coast.

    I use Audirvana and, will ultimately be using in Aurender music server.

    I tried to embed album art in the DFF files using a trial version of J-river and while it displayed well in the J-river media player, it did not follow the files and permit album artwork and Audirvana. I was then later was told by Cookie, that DFF files do not permit embedded album artwork
    Aurender S10--> Meitner MA-1 --> Audio Research LS-25 --> Audio Research REF-110-->Vandersteen Quatro CT Spekaers
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  23. #23
    Yuri Korzunov, software developer audiventory's Avatar
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    New AuI ConverteR 48x44 with DSF meta tag editor - text, pictures

    Today uploaded new beta-version AuI ConverteR 48x44 (Mac OS X, Windows) with DSF meta tag editor.

    How edit DSF meta tags:

    1. Read DSF tags

    2. Edit meta tag text fields (track name, album, artist,...).

    3. Add/change meta tag picture (album cover/back, artist, conductor, band photos,... - adding more 20 picture in single DSF audio file) formats png, jpeg, gif.

    4. Cancellation of changing for selected file (before closing editor).

    In FREE version saved only first file in list.

    Meta tag editor planned for editions PROduce-R and above (will released in nearest days).

    Planned support other types of audio files.



    More details here:
    http://samplerateconverter.com/conte...onverter-48x44
    Last edited by audiventory; 01-15-2015 at 06:33 AM.
    AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files
    DSF/DFF/ISO(DST) (1-bit/D64/128/256/512)/wav, flac, aiff, alac/safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF,
    Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF meta tags editor, Mac & PC

  24. #24
    Yuri Korzunov, software developer audiventory's Avatar
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    I makes video about DSF meta tag editor

    I want suggestions for its improvement

    AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files
    DSF/DFF/ISO(DST) (1-bit/D64/128/256/512)/wav, flac, aiff, alac/safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF,
    Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF meta tags editor, Mac & PC