Thread: Optical out.. Good???

Have a look Here
A few thoughts on why I went over from Toslink to USB and a converter.
It does harp on a little about ther Stello U3 but if you ignore the product the rest reads OK.

For awhile I liked the optical more than USB because it sounded more analog, but the sound from my new Musical Fidelity V-Link 192 blows the optical away in resolution and refinement. I no longer use the optical output from my Mac Mini.

No.

The optical out wont be bad, and will partly depend on the quality of the DAC you're plugging it into at the other end. The really great thing is you can try both optical and USB.

You can, if not already using one, try a glass cable instead of a plastic one, as was stated above. You can also try a USB>S/PDIF converter. I say if you're happy with the sound, no need to rush into changing it for the heck of it, unless of course you want to.

Originally Posted by crisnee

Terse? yes, Cute? questionable, Helpful? surely not. No it's not good enough or no I won't benefit from a USB to Spdif....

Just trying to be helpful.

-Chris

Sorry, seemed to be asked as a Y/N question to me. This topic has been discussed before, many times, but perhaps with the change to these forums it is not possible to search for old threads?
In any case, the optical output from computers has a ton of jitter, as I recall, Gordon Rankin (Wavelength Audio owner/designer) has measured a few different Mac computers, and their optical outs had jitter levels in the nS range: this would not be considered high end quality. Yes, the optical output will work, but there are now very good, relatively affordable DACs with good async USB inputs which will not be subject to the the poor clocks generated internally in the computer. The Calyx DAC is a great example of a good async USB DAC for a very reasonable price, which will actuallly allow for very good sonic performance from a computer acting as transport. Oh, there is also the Sonore/exD DAC as well.

here's what Jason Stoddard (Schiit Audio, formerly of Sumo) said in a 6 Moons review of the Bifrost:

"S/PDIF from computers is inferior? I'm unsure where this idea that S/PDIF from computers is 'inferior' derived. Sure there's variation in S/PDIF output quality but we're getting jitter rates from Apple Toslink and good PC soundcard coax that are not significantly different than what we get from a good transport."

Jolida, until you are ready to upgrade your dac to one that can handle higher sample rates perhaps you should just use a good quality glass optical cable. Once you're ready to upgrade your dac then async usb dacs should be on your radar.

To date every time I use optical from the my Mini, I take a hit in sound quality. This is using a glass cable, and the plastic is worse. I would look into a USB>SPDIF(M2Tech or eq) convertor that has a return policy and a cheaper USB and SPDIF or AES/EBU cable and give it a whirl. I am thinking you will be pleasantly surprised.

2010 Mac Book Pro here..

Had been using optical (Chord OptiChord) for some time but the results I felt were just OK.

It sounded fine but everything seemed to be painted with the same brush strokes...in other words, homogenized.

Enter Halide's The Bridge (USB>SPDIF). Now the music is back.

Originally Posted by Jolida

I'm sure the USB Dac's are very good, but my worry is how do the new Dacs like Benchmark or Buffalo etc compare against Non-USB (but reputed) dacs like Wadia & PS Audio etc??? As I'm already using a Wadia, but which is an older model, I'm curious to know how it would compare against the modern USB dacs...

Well this is a very broad question: There is nothing about a "USB DAC" which will inherently make it better or worse than an older DAC without a USB input (except one thing which I will get to). You should think of USB as just another input on a given DAC design, how good the DAC may be is entirely up to the design, and how sophisticated and well engineered it is, this is not different than DAC design has always been, and there are bad, OK, and very good DACs available which offer USB inputs.
There is one advantage which a USB input can give a DAC over a DAC which only offers SPDIF inputs: USB allows for totally asynchronous operation, fairly easily now, which generates the masterclock onboard the DAC, with no need to sync the onboard masterclock to the clock of the data stream-this approach does give a well designed USB DAC an advantage over SPDIF only style DACs in terms of jitter. Read this for a good explanation of the advantages of asynchronous USB over SPDIF:

http://ayre.com/pdf/Ayre_USB_DAC_White_Paper.pdf

BTW, PS Audio DACs have USB inputs.
As far as how any DAC may sound vs an older Wadia, only a listening test is going to tell you the answer to that question. As mentioned, there are bad and good DACs with USB inputs, all the other engineering and design that goes into a DAC still matters (power supplies, analog stages, filter designs, DAC chip selection and implementation, quality of construction, passive parts selection, etc, etc).

Originally Posted by barrows

There is one advantage which a USB input can give a DAC over a DAC which only offers SPDIF inputs: USB allows for totally asynchronous operation,

The way I read this implies that any USB input is asynchronous. Just a heads up for those that need it, not all DAC's have an asynchronous input, most are adaptive.

Originally Posted by Raym87

The way I read this implies that any USB input is asynchronous. Just a heads up for whoever is reading this that not all DAC's have an asynchronous input, most are adaptive.

Then you may not understand the english language that well? I wrote "USB allows for totally asynchronus operation", in no way does that statement imply that all USB inputs do operate asynchronously. Although, presently, it is much easier for a DAC designer to incorporate truly asynchronous USB than it was a few years ago, and there are many truly asynchronous USB DACs now available. Certainly, I would suggest that only a truly asynchronous USB DAC should be considered for purchase these days.

Nothing wrong with my English. I wasn't criticising, just trying to help and clear up something that some may not be sure of. Maybe I was seeing an issue where there wasn't one, who's to say?
Get off your high horse fella.

"Get off your high horse fella."

Really, you are not criticizing? My point was that I did not imply, in any way, that all USB inputs are asynchronous, and only an inaccurate reading of my post could allow for such a conclusion. It is much easier to communicate if we use the language precisely.

Originally Posted by Jolida

Lol. Interesting. The main reason I'm curious about this is because I'm using the onboard optical out off my Mac Mini, which sounds very rolled-off compared to the cMP machine I am using. Someone told me that the onboard optical output ain't that good & therefore suggested using a device like the M2Tech or a Halide Bridge which is hooked up via USB to output a digital signal that could go into my existing Wadia Dac. Will this approach be better than me Upgrading to the newer USB Dacs itself??? I recently bought a Mac Mini & installed an SSD along with optimisations suggested like disabling Spotlight & other stuff, but still the performance is far behind the cMp machine in every aspect. So it got me wondering. The Mac Mini can't be THAT bad at least.... Or am I still missing something???

It is most likely the optical port, not the mini. May I ask why it is that you are switching from cMP?

Jolida, sorry about the drama!

If you really like the sound of your Wadia, then adding a really good asynchronous USB-SPDIF converter will outperform optical, and a CD transport, as well as allow you to take advantage of higher resolution files. But, considering the quality that a Wadia DAC is capable of, I would consider better performing converters than the HiFace or Halide bridge units which you mention. I would suggest considering the Berkeley Alpha USB, or the Sonore Signature USB converters, both which do not rely on the USB power supply for critical clock generation circuitry.

Now, could a contemporary, asynchronous USB DAC offer even better performance: I am confident in saying the answer is yes, but you would need to listen test to find one, and, considering the sonic quality of Wadia, you would need to be listening to the very expensive DACs, like the Meitner and EMM DACs recently reviewed by Chris on this site, and perhaps, the Weiss Medea Plus, and Playback Designs DACs.

The Buffalo DAC is strictly DIY. It is possible to build a very good DAC based on the Buffalo platform, but as a DIY project there are many possible variations, which will lead to many possible different results. Info on some is here:

1st Impression, Twisted Pear Audio Buffalo II DAC