Submitted by jcobb on Mon, 05/04/2009 - 20:29
Hello everyone. I have been reading the various forum threads for weeks now, trying to learn a little about getting the most out of my system. This has been a wonderful resource.
My system right now: Apple TV via optical out into a sony 3300es amp, paradigm monitor 9 fronts with dsp3100 sub. I run windows xp, iTunes 8.1. I use EAC to rip CDs into AIFF for archive and then import into itunes using ALAC (jazz, classical/opera, rock, reference CDs), AAC @ 192 (pop and others).
The Apple TV has been great (also use a Roku Soundbridge sometimes) and it is the first audio purchase that my wife has actually enjoyed using. While I realize compared to many systems I've read about on here, it is low to mid-grade, for the most part the setup suits me pretty well. I do have some hearing damage that tends to lose some of the high end sometimes. Anyway, I love the paradigms and they've been a phenomenal value compared to others I compared to in the showroom.
I feel like I've tweaked about as much as I can with the current setup. The room provides some difficulties (wood floors, one wall of floor-to-ceiling windows, etc). With some CDs off of the apple tv, the mid-range sounds muddy to me and I don't seem to get all of the highs. Particularly compared to the CD played in my sony blu-ray. I've tried using AIFF instead of the ALAC, but I get the same result. Since I'm using optical out on both the Apple TV and the blu-ray (when playing the actual CDs), I assume I'm using the DAC in the sony amp in both cases. I just can't get my head around why I seem to be hearing a difference.
For example, strings and horns sometimes lose clarity. Miles Davis' Sketches of Spain stands out as a good example. I can clearly hear a difference in presence, for lack of a better word. Another example is Sinatra's Only the Lonely. The vocals don't have the same punch. I realize this isn't scientific at all and I've no way to volume-match, although they're awfully close right now as it is.
Can anyone offer some insight as to what might be the issue? I've wondered if something like an inexpensive DAC as discussed in the on-going thread (Valab, etc.) might improve the situation. But it doesn't seem to answer the issue of apparent differences between the apple tv and the original CD.
Hope no one reads this as a critique of the apple tv though. It has been a fantastic purchase (had if for a about a year), if for no other reason than my girl gives me carte blanche on music purchases now.
Thanks in advance for any assistance you can give.
Jerry
I suspect you might be noticing a difference in the amount of jitter between the output on the Apple TV and the Sony Blu-Ray player. I am not sure how the output on the Apple TV measures with regards to jitter, but I have read some comments on-line stating the unit exhibits fairly high levels of Jitter. If this is the case then an external DAC that can buffer and re-clock the data stream and/or up-sample the stream may improve the sound of your Apple TV by a significant margin.
You don't mention the price range for your DAC purchase, but PS Audio has an excellent DAC on sale in the US at the moment for $699. At $699, the PS Audio Digital Link III DAC is a true audiophile bargain. The Cambridge DAC Magic is also worthy of a peek at $400 us.
Another option that might work is the MONARCHY - DIP Up-sampler $299, which is not a DAC, but a device that can reduce jitter. The DIP can take the optical output of your Apple TV and re-clock it and up-sample it before sending it off to the DAC via your receiver's coaxial input.
Another low cost option to look at that I forgot to mention would be the Music Fidelity V-Dac at $299.
Thanks for the info on possible jitter issues. I'm not too clear on what causes it but it sounds as though it could be the issue between the apple tv and my blu-ray player.
I may try the music fidelity v-dac to see if it helps. Thanks again!
Jerry
I'm using an Apple TV with optical out to a DAC and am very happy with the sound I've been getting. In terms of a DAC, older used ones might be an option as already mentioned. The Parasound Ultra2000 is one that comes to mind. I have a Micromega DAC1 (I just like the Micromega sound). With an older DAC, if you have the space, you could also replace the opamps with the Burson opamps. I've done that to the Micromega and it has totally changed the sound. So much so that I will likely not be changing my DAC for a while.
Hi Jerry,
Unfortunately, WinXP/iTunes/AIFF = not a good combination. I'd be much more inclined to look at your setup than start chucking money around, just yet.
As you're already using iTunes/Aiff, I'd try and get my hands on a Mac, as my first choice.
Failing that then try either MediaMonkey or Foobar as you player. iTunes is not well regarded for playing nicely on a PC and PC's are not well regarded for playing nicely with Aiff files. Mac's and PC's, oil and water, etc etc. The most important thing in XP, in my experience, is to make sure that all known volumes are switched off, disabled, not doing anything, handcuffed to the bed, whatever, just don't use any sort of volume adjustment within the PC.
Anyway, as I said, as you've already done the hard work using iTunes/Aiff, my gut feeling would be that a mac mini would make much better financial sense to your system than worrying about jitter! Jitter is for those 'lucky' few with nothing left to worry about! (Oh, and the paranoid, let's not forget them!)
Bob
CAPS(EssenceST)-->Tact 2.0s-->Audio Reseach 100.2-->Martin Logan Vista
It shouldn't be too bad if it's going to the ATV because the ATV gets the signal before XP messes with it. But yeah, macs rock :) plus, if you replace the ATV with a mac then you can get "full hd" 1080p on your tv instead of 720p.
X2 on the volume controls. If you are using anything like that or an equalizer/sound "enhancer" on your pc, ditch them. They only degrade the sound unless they are high quality which you just don't get with most free software. In theory, a computer should be AT LEAST on par with the other transport so X2 on looking into that setup before getting an external dac.
I really had not thought about a mac, since I just sync everything to the apple tv. I rarely listen to music streamed from the pc (or even directly on the pc actually). I mentioned earlier that I felt I had tweaked my setup about as much as I could. Maybe I haven't. I'm going to try swapping out the optical cable on the apple tv. It didn't occur to me until now that I was using an old one that I bought years ago. I'll probably try that as well as some of the other suggestions prior to looking into another purchase.
I guess there could be issues with the EAC rips. I bookmarked a site a while back that offered recommended settings, so that could be another avenue to check out.
Thanks!
You can change your optical cable but might not notice much of a difference. If you look around you'll probably see that there are lots of RCA & AES/EBU digital cables with various prices but not much choice for optical cables. I probably wouldn't go out there on a cable. I picked up a glass one from http://www.uniqueproductsonline.com/
One thing I found is EAC didn't do a good job ripping into AIFF. The sound level was low when I played a EAC-ripped file back. I then used iTunes with error checking on and it was much better.
How long is your optical cable and what is the arrangement of your system 'boxes'?
Note that your AppleTV is really just another computer busily generating RF and other interference from its hard disc, power supply, logic switching etc etc.
I found that the sound quality from the Apple TV in my system (Bel Canto DAC3 used as DAC / preamp driving power amps and Harbeth Super HL5s) improved considerably when I moved the AppleTV as far away as possible from the rest of the system (limited by a 1.5m optical cable).
Incidentally I'm not convinced that, good as it is, the Bel Canto can remove all effects of jitter in the AppleTV digital output, so I'm keen to give the PS Audio "Lens" an audition when it becomes available.
Mac Pro with iTunes (ALAC) > Airport Extreme OR RME Fireface 400 > LFD integrated > PMC DB1 (creation & monitoring)
Apple TV + iPod touch & PS Audio PWT > Bel Canto DAC 3 with VBS1 > Bridged Alner-Hamblin SA400s > Harbeth SHL5s (enjoyment)
It's actually very close to the rest of the equipment. I think the cable is probably the 3 ft. variety. Inside the cabinet I keep the apple tv, blu-ray player, motorola cable box, sony amp, roku soundbridge, tripplite power conditioner. There's also a URC mrf-260 converter for the various remotes in the house (mx-900s and KP-900s). Oh and one of those x10 543 converters that take ir and convert it to powerline for the lighting.
I may try to move the apple tv out of the cabinet and put it on top away from everything when I swap out the cable. It runs pretty hot so that would probably be best anyway. It's just that I was using the front blaster of the mrf-260 inside the cabinet for the roku and apple tv since I've used all the other ports and I've gotten out of the habit of pointing remotes.
Maybe that will help. These are some really good ideas.
Ok, so I got some great ideas but I should have started with the basics. I went back through my hookups and realized that my amp was taking the analog audio feed from the apple tv instead of the digital-optical one. For all of my components I also run an analog cable for audio so my second zone out (patio and garage) can play each source. But for it to work properly, the amp's input needed to be set to "auto," but for the apple tv it somehow got switched to "analog."
Tested everything out once I fixed the amp's settings and the quirks I described with the mids and highs seem to be gone. Ok, cheap solution. Wow...I feel foolish. Sorry folks .
I'm still going to keep working on perfecting my process for AIFF/ALAC etc. though. Thanks everyone for all the help.
Jerry