Hope all is well! I have a few questions: do you feel the crashes are windows 7 related or third party issues? Also, what are the main advantages of using 64bit in this application? Is it to take advantage of more ram?

Thanks

Jesus R
www.sonore.us

Hi Jesus - Yes, the crashes were all related to third party issues. Windows 7 by itself seems stable and fast. I'm using 64-bit because I have 10GB of RAM in this machine.

Chris how much time are you spending downloading and implementing sound cards for Formula One and Formula two?

When I read your articles I feel like you need something like a woodworking jig to make things work. Not the user experience I was thinking about for Windows 7.

Chris - Are you able to get hi-res playback via the new beta Lynx driver? I upgraded the firmware on my aes16e to v9 and upgraded the driver to the new beta version that you are using, and I can no longer play files with resolution >96hz (ie, 176 or 192)(via single-wire output to BDA-1). These previously played fine with this software and hardware configuration. The OS which I encountered this problem on was Vista32, and now having upgraded to Win7_32 it persists. The light on the DAC indicates the resolution of the stream correctly eg, 176, but no sound is produced. The Lynx Mixer Outputs panel also show no activity on the relevant channel when the file being played is above 96k resolution, so this might be a bug in the beta driver, or if you are not experiencing it, a bug in the new aes16e firmware.

Hi carloscarr - I believe the new firmware is for 32-bit operating systems only so I skipped it. I can play everything from 44.1 to 192 via single wire just fine. Your issue is similar to one of the issues I encountered over the last couple days. Are you using ASIO? So far it's required in my system.

Any word on USB Class 2 drivers?

Using WMP at unity gain will give bit-perfect output, including HDCD. This is according to the dev team that wrote the code. Several are knowledgeable audiophiles (along with their day job as developers :))

What happens with other drivers and players, I don't know. Just see if the HDCD light comes on in an external device, which is a good litmus test. Being able to detect bit perfect playback by ear is I suspect a superhuman feat.

And at less than unity gain, the volume control software is highly sophisticated affair, generally competive with that of high-end DACs that don't use mechanical potentiometers or resistor networks. They were very serious about audio playback in Vista compared to XP, and put a huge engineering effort into it. Win 7 contains additional improvements of an incremental nature.

Having used Windows 7 for a year now, the overall experience is way, way better. The attitude in Redmond was, when it's ready, we ship, and not before, and this shows. The product was tested by a very large community, well into six-figures worldwide.

Windows 7 is working fine here with MediaMonkey 3.1.2.1277 + Otachan ASIO plugin SSE + ESI Juli@ 1.07 (SPDIF).
I have an Asus M2NPV-VM motherboard, AMD 6000+ CPU and 2 gigs of RAM.

For me it sounds better than it did with the same config on Windows XP.
Thumbs up!

See their differences here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7_editions

Matias,

Are you running the 64 bit version of Windows 7 with Media monkey 32 bit?

According to the developers, they're seeing HDCD bit streams passing through WMP and lighting up the HDCD indicator on external devices, at least in the 16 bit form, at unity gain, thus they are inferring bit-perfect in this specific situation, despite the 32 bit floating point volume control. So it's apparently touchy.

My impression is that bit-perfect is available under some, but not all, scenarios. DD/DTS seems to work OK with external receivers, indicating that they're apparently happy with the output; this apparently happens through the DD/DTS bypass mode.

We'll be testing via S/PDIF shortly, and at 24 bits.

No no, you are not going to read what you expect after seeing that title ... it is WORSE ...

Some things are just unknown, which doesn't mean I don't know them hehe.

My impression is that bit-perfect is available under some, but not all, scenarios. DD/DTS seems to work OK with external receivers, indicating that they're apparently happy with the output;

Before Vista, people used to perform the "DTS test". This was very common, and it would prove for XP for some situations (soundcards/drivers) whether playback was bit perfect. Not in all cases, and nobody understood it quite well.

The above quote reminded me of one of such unknown things, and this is that with encoded material Vista (and the likes, like W2008, W7) switches to bit perfect mode. It must, or otherwise these streams cannot be played; the encoding would be destroyed.

Now, in here I have seen so so many posts about the HDCD light and the proof of *thus* being bit perfect when the light lits, that I gave up on it and let it be. This, while to me it is more than 100% clear when and when not bit perfect playback is possible over Vista likes. However, during normal thinking and operation this is about ASIO/WASAPI, and not about DTS streams ... of course.

But what I never thought about before is that HDCD has to be treated as encoded material just the same, or otherwise it can not work at the decoding side.

Read what Juergen just wrote ... he is just correct. But with my reason behind things (which is just in the Vista specs !) all things come together. This should mean that :

Vista (etc.) indeed is bit perfect for HDCD material. But only for that (as a kind of representative for red book).

Peter, bringer of bad news, who can now at last put his mind to rest on this subject and who could have come up with this a few years back ...

Peter, bringer of bad news, who can now at last put his mind to rest on this subject and who could have come up with this a few years back ...

I love the sense of humor Peter :~)

I have tested the actual Version of J.River MC 14.0.84 in Windows 7 Home Premium 32 under the exclusive WASAPI Mode and it works perfect in every way.

Juergen

I just upgraded my Zalman Music Server from WinXP Pro to W7 Pro 64 bit and am hearing improvements in sound quality - increased clarity, resolution and macro/micro detail. I'm not sure how much of the improvements are due to W7 or the new Lynx 64 bit driver for my AES16 PCI card (which drives a Berkeley Alpha DAC), but I am very pleased. I'm using Samplitude 10 as a digital player.

Overall I'm more of an Apple guy, but I must admit that so far I am very impressed with W7. It is decidedly faster, more stable and responsive than WinXP. I use a Netbook to remote control my Zalman with Remote Desktop Connection and compared to WinXP Pro where I would get periodic drop outs in playback I have had zero drop outs with W7.

Hi Chris - I've been a periodic lurker on your site here, and a regular over on Head-Fi for a bit. I have to say you're doing a great job!

I too, was hoping Windows 7 would "finally work." I had high hopes this past couple months as I've been testing the Release Candidate. It actually installed very cleanly and I even had my Older E-Mu 1212m up and running with relatively minimal headache. This computer is my "all-in-one" HTPC, so I needed a full-featured HTPC frontend, and the Windows 7 Media Center certainly delivers the goods. The OS in general is very clean, fast, and has actually been a joy to use...except that I've had a weird latency issue with my 1212m and my keyboard, of all things.

I researched and found this on the Microsoft Developer Website:

The Microsoft Windows audio team is working hard to reduce overall audio latency in future Windows operating systems. An important part of this effort is to provide low-latency implementations of audio APIs in order to eliminate any need to access the KS audio components directly.

The plan for future Windows products is to provide built-in multimedia APIs and core services with very low latency and complete bit-for-bit transparency. These features should eliminate the need for any application program to circumvent the audio subsystem....Be forewarned that the DirectKS approach is unlikely to work on operating systems after Windows XP and Windows Server 2003.

That, from this page:

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/archive/directks.mspx

Now, it's admirable that Microsoft seemed to be working on bit-perfect output, but this was from 2002. We're at 2009, and bit-perfect output seems still a bit far afield. If Microsoft has stuck to their guns, and DirectSound is not yet yielding true bitperfect output, I fear we're in for a long wait.

It's a real pity, because I've actually enjoyed working in the OS. Double-pity because Windows 7 Media Center is the best overall HTPC frontend implementation I've seen even compared to my previous favorite, MediaPortal (which is currently breaking on 7, depending on your situation). It even does quite a few things better than MythTV and XBMC, which I'd also tested pretty extensively.

It does everything except *ahem* play back cleanly while I'm working at the computer.

*Sigh*....I feel like I'm going to have to wander in the desert again for another 40 years.

To use the exclusive WASAPI mode in J.River correctly you have to set two important windows right: Go to: Tools – Options – Playback – DSP … - Output Format – Bitdepth – and choose 24 Bit (in case you have a 24 Bit soundcard) and the second point is: Go to: Tools – Options – Playback – Output Mode setting – and remove the point “present 24-bit data in a 32 bit package and then for me, J.River works perfect in Windows 7 and Vista, 100 % Bit True.

Sound of in Windows 7: I must also confirm that for me the sound in Windows 7, with absolutely the same hardware as in Vista, is more transparent with more resolution and more detail. A slightly weaker bass, but I think this comes from the higher resolution in the treble. Also the latency seems smaller, than in Vista. But still no native support for 88200 Hz (but either WASAPI or manufacturer made W7 driver can circumvent this point and will play 88.2).

USB DAC is working fine in Windows 7.

I have just repeated three measurements with Windows 7 for Bit True test and only the exclusive WASAPI mode is natively bit perfect in Windows 7, nor the Direct Sound Out or the Wave Out is. I am sorry, that I can’t post any pictures; otherwise you would be able to see it also.

Juergen

PS: I used my “special” Bit True test signal, created out of two different Bit True test signals from the Audio Precision System. This is a 16 Bit DC (constant value) on the left channel and 24 Bit Walking Zero test on the right channel test, to use only one test for testing bit true digital systems.

Actually I'm having trouble to make the sound work with my Juli@ in Windows 7 overall. Sound effects, YouTube, nothing sounds except ASIO in MediaMonkey or J.River. I tried switching analog/digital, enable/disable devices, testing and troubleshooting... and nothing.
Clean install on formated drive + newest drivers, everything as clean as it could be. Very annoying.

JR_Audio, I tried the settings you said and still no good. I guess the drivers are broken.

Hi Matias,

First of all notice there are new W7 drivers for the Juli@. I won't say that helps because it just as well can be player issues. The only thing I know from a couple of XXHighEnd users is that they don't see a problem whatsoever with W7 and the former Juli@ drivers.

Also notice that a WASAPI implementation can be done in many ways (by the developers), so it doesn't say much when one works, about the other.

And FYI :
By now I have one call from one user, which call seems to prove that something working under Vista does not under W7. This could be accidentally solved by settings in XXHE, but this is/was certainly not my intention. Were this setting not there, the sound for this user would just have stopped under W7.
So it seems there *is* something going on. And this is about normal USB ...

HTH a bit,
Peter

I installed the latest and greatest drivers on their website, v1.07, in a clean Win7. If it doesn't work that way, I can't imagine why.

Tested this player with my Win7 x64 + Juli@ 1.07 @ SPDIF.
External DAC is a Benchmark DAC1 USB @ SPDIF.
Engines #1 and #2 don't play, says it is out of memory.
Engine #3 plays with muted sound, no output in the Juli@'s mixer.
BTW, I tried registering to your forum but you won't accept Gmail accounts. :(

This is an amazing but true story. The interaction of a keyboard, PS2 port, whatever, created a problem. Somewhere someone else may have reported a similar problem, so it always pays to Bing or Google even the weirdest symptoms.

Who knows?

I had a similar problem as the previous poster had from a PS/2 keyboard, however, with the help of the dpc latency checker ( http://www.thesycon.de/dpclat/dpclat.exe ), I was able to identify the source of the problem with ASIO dropouts and latency spikes on my Lynx aes16e card: it was conflict with my wireless adapter (DWA-552), whose Windows 7 drivers are evidently poorly behaved.
I resolved this conflict by disabling the wirelss card, but for now I've rolled back to Vista because IMHO the beta Lynx drivers sound better on Vista than on Win7. Maybe by the time they come out in the final release this will be resolved. I still have Win7 on all my other (non-media server) computers, it's a great OS but with a few teething pains....

Matias,

Are you not able to get J. River MC to play with Wasapi? Can you get it to play with Direct Sound? How do you like the SQ using Windows 7 as compared to XP or Vista please?

Liz

@Wonders:

I did Google the heck out of the issue, but came up blank. Got some useful info. from one of my IT colleagues at work, though. :)

After I solved the problem, somebody pointed out that perhaps it's a bandwidth or priority issue between USB and PS2 ports. Like you say...who knows? It's still somewhat of a mystery to me.

I installed Win7 on two machines ... one a 64 bit upgrade and the other a 32 bit upgrade. Former went fine. Latter has been a nightmare.

There is a conflict/bug in my Dell 1210 Broadcom NC 440x 10/100 Integrated Controller drivers. None of the drivers, going as far back as XP and as new as the latest release, work. Has trouble holding an ethernet connection, Auto speed control does not work, etc. My Tech Support guy spent 5 hours on this to no avail. It'll hold a connection if connected directly to the router, but only if the speed/frame settings are precisely tweaked, and won't hold a connection on any connection that has an extra device in between (like a hub).

Based on this I would only switch to Win7 with the purchase of a new machine.

Eventually, complete change out of the motherboard, which contains the controller, fixed the issue. I suspect something about the upgrade process caused some firmware on the board to get corrupted, or, reset something deep in the BIOS that the tech support teams don't yet know about.

Juli@ works fine with Windows 7 x64 final using drivers v1.05.
Actually MME hangs only if latency is large (like 2048 samples).
WASAPI now works in J.River, as long as the buffer is smaller then 1.5 seconds.
I'll try comparing sound quality between WASAPI and ASIO later.

Chris,
My Dell Dimension 8400 running XP Pro, using MM, and equipped with a Lynx AES16, connected to my Benchmark USB with an AES cable, just died. I've repaired/replaced the motherboard and power supply on previous occasions, and am thinking that it's time to buy a replacement. I will need a machine that the kids can do their homework on, so something akin to the Dell Inspiron 530 you've written about might fit the bill. Do you have any further thoughts on Windows based operating systems? I'm particularly interested to know what you hear when you use your Windows 7 system. Any further comments to offer after the frustrating first 48 hours?
Many thanks!

Hi Neovibe - I wish I could say yes to everything in your post, but right now it isn't that simple :~(

It's really hard to guarantee bit perfect because everyone's PC is so different and many things can creep up that other people would never think of.

It depends on the driver, playback software, volume controls, output method (ASIO, WASAPI, etc...), and settings within the playback software. This is one of those things that makes a Mac so appealing to people. I'm using Windows 7 hardcore right now with a couple soundcards and I like it. Mac isn't the only game in town it's just the easier one.

You are right, but I want to add some small points.

You said, being Bit-True, does not guarantee perfect sound, that’s right, but without being Bit True, you are far from having perfect sound.

So for example with iTunes under Windows 7 you can’t get the same Bit-True result when adjusting the correct Sample Rate, as with iTunes under Mac, no way.

With the actual QuickTime under Windows 7 you have three different output modes and also a “WASAPI” mode, but this is not exclusive WASAPI, so also not Bit True.

As stated PeterSt, with exclusive WASAPI mode, windows has no control of the volume (lucky it is not), so you can use this behavior the other way round. If you choose for example QuickTime (under Win7 or Vista) and select the “WASAPI” mode you will see when playing back a file, that Windows opens an extra Volume slider named with “QuickTime”, so you clearly see, that this can’t be Bit True, because it goes over the Windows Mixer. Instead if you are running in Exclusive WASAPI Mode J.River Media Center 14 or Foobar2000, you will notice that no additional slider will appear in Windows and that you have no control of the sound with the windows output slider. So this way you have real 1:1 Bit True output with automatically sample rate switch and also with 88.2 kHz sample rate output, that you will not have with the Wave or Direct Sound out in Win7 or Vista.

Juergen

Judging by the forum posts, WASAPI under Vista and W7 is still pretty shaky. My own experience is that in a gross sense, it works (sound comes out), but there are ticks and pops. This is going out via USB and 1394.

Juergen, Chris, have any comments? Is Media Monkey or Foobar any better in this regard?

I am in hurry, because I have to leave soon, will be out of office for two days, but are these clicks and pops with a specific version of MC14? I was running MC14 at the January CES all show days on an USB DAC without any click during the complete show.

Next week I will be in Far East for another show and will use J.River MC14 on my portable MacBook via BootCamp Windows 7 and exclusive WASAPI, so I will make some testing with the actual version of J.River when I am back in office before I head to Far East.

Juergen

Now I am back in my office and was able to do some newer tests on J.River MC Version 14.0.151

OS and Hardware: Windows 7 (32-Bit) Home Premium on MacBook 2.1 via BootCamp 3.1.

J.River output via exclusive WASAPI Mode with the following detailed settings:
Yes on: Open device for exclusive access
No on: Flush device buffers on startup
Yes on: Flush device buffers on pause
No on: Present 24-Bit data in a 32-bit package

Output set to 24 Bit in the output format field of the DSP studio.

This test I have done on three different USB DACs:
1. 16 Bit / 48 K, Burr Brown PCM2706 Interface, Isochronous adaptive Mode
2. 24 Bit / 96 K, TI 1020B, CEntrance Code, Isochronous adaptive Mode
3. 24 Bit / 96 K, TI 1020B, with Isochronous asynchronous Mode

The USB DACs where connected to a root hub of my MacBook (the right hand side jack of the two USB ports, that are on the left side, not the left hand side (this is shared with the keyboard)).

File Test: J.River MC14 (Version 14.0.151) does play back WAVE, AIFF and FLAC all with Tags and Album Art (even with the Wave File (if stored with the BWF broadcast extension).

Bit True: It plays 16 Bit and 24 Bit Wave, AIFF and FLAC Files, all with automatic sample rate change and every type 1:1 Bit True (tested with 44.1, 48, 88.2 and 96 K).

I have absolutely no stuttering, or drops or anything. Everything went perfect.

Juergen

PS: For testing the PCM2706, I have set the Bit width in the DSP studio to 16 Bit and limited the test to only 44.1 and 48 K.

Nicholas I am a little bit short in time, because I am on business vacation, but some small comments from my side:

Something is a bit strange for me, because if you set your software to be Bit True (either JRiver MC14, or Foobar 2000), it has the same level whether you use the WASAPI driver or the ASIO driver, even Direct Sound or Wave have very similar levels (they differ only in the 24th bit).

And additionally, I can use my SPDIF Out, or AES/EBU Out, or USB out or Firewire Out, into one of my different DACs, I have absolutely the same level with each interface. Why should I have different levels, because for example – 20 dBFS is the same digital value on every interface?

The dCS white paper is in my opinion too much simplified, so I would not use it as reference. The dCS DACs are great, without doubt, but this white paper about computer playback is far from that.

Juergen

Hi Juergen:

Does business vacation mean that you're making money and having a good time? In case you're in Hawaii, come on over.

With some additional listening, I'm getting very good results WASAPI via (glass) TOSLINK (another Wireworld cable) to the Lavry... no ticks or pauses. TOSLINK still sounds way better than USB.

Thanks for the comments on the dCS paper; it we can get the story behind the measurements, they will probably make a lot more sense. Channels are being opened...

Bon voyage...

Nick

Hi Nicholas,

We better forget about my earlier remarks; something else must be going on. 4dB for pink noise is a lot, and nothing like I suggested - which would be about certain frequencies and/or harmonics combinations.

This can hardly be all bit-true.
But maybe it is an idea to call it operator error ? haha. Measuring properly with an SPL meter isn't all that easy, and while you must keep the distance the same (easy) there also shouldn't be something else in a different place (YOU !) because of reflections. And maybe you didn't see it, but your last list isn't 100% consistent with your post earlier.

Anyway ... I don't recall performing (SPL) tests like this to relatively judge a player or playback means, and maybe you shouldn't do it either. Maybe it is better to use the known theories, like WASAPI being bit-true if used in Exlcusive Mode. Or read Juergens posts. Just use it, and if you like the sound, keep on using it (btw, your description of the sound of WASAPI is creapily close to what I would say, compared to something like DS).

Also to keep in mind : WASAPI doesn't contain or produce ticks and the like. Oh, it sure may differ from player to player how easy it is to incur for them, but try to keep in mind it's always your PC. So, never mind with e.g. ASIO everything is allright, it still is your PC.

Getting digital correctly isn't easy.

Not yet. But we are learning.
Peter

I agree that WASAPI bit-perfect through J River is definitely the way to go, for our situation. The only problem right now is that the 1394 output seems to have some ticks and pops; however, the 1394/SPDIF interface may well be the problem.

USB and TOSLINK SPDIF are at least tick-free, and while the USB audio is not acceptable, the TOSLINK with a glass fiber is suprisingingly good. 1394 is better, but at the moment is a bit problematic with the tick artifacts. Seems like hardly anyone has software that will run on typical Windows (meaning HP, Acer, Asus, Dell) laptop 1394 chipsets.

Have fun on your trip! Nice time of year to go to Thailand; probably still a bit chilly in Japan and northern China. Keep in mind that it's only 7-8 hours from Tokyo to Honolulu; about 10 hours from Taipei.

Good question...

In this particular situation, feeding this particular DAC directly with USB doesn't produce as good results as TOSLINK (with glass optical fiber, not plastic, from Wireworld). The best results are with 1394 converted to S/PDIF input to the DAC. However, at the moment at least, the 1394 source is plagued with occasional ticks or gaps or whatevers.

The soundstage of the USB is flattened, front to back, and the images are spread out a bit; there's a combination of muffling, and exaggerated transients, together with global grittiness, that shouldn't be there. Some commonly available USB products sound this way: They're producing a music-like sound product that really isn't very good at all, compared to the real thing or reference-level gear.

Some higher-quality USB and 1394 to S/PDIF converters are on the way in house, so it will be interesting to hear how they perform.

Some 1394-equipped devices do not work well, or at all, on many consumer laptops. Basically the manufacturers don't have the ability to handle the software issues, and think that because it works on one 1394 chipset, OS and driver, their work is done.

Same with USB. Some designers have it nailed, according to reviews, while others have not done as well. The connection of high-end DACs to noise-spewing computers is fraught with peril :).

Hi again Nicholas,

Why do I have the feeling that you mix things which I wouldn't ? (yea, that can be me ! haha).

Seems like hardly anyone has software that will run on typical Windows (meaning HP, Acer, Asus, Dell) laptop 1394 chipsets.

What software are you talking about ? I mean, the only software you *could* mean is driver software, but I have the hunch you refer to something else ...

For your Firewire clicks, you may go into the driver's control panel, and pump up the buffer size. Notice that anything under 128 (samples) is too low for general purpose "software" - and I mean player software here.

But your very best option would be to ditch the Dell (might that be the one creating Firewire problems).
Just my experience.

Peter

PS: Don't forget to install the legacy Firewire driver over the one which comes with W7, no matter the manufacturer tells you he solved the problems with it (the driver which comes with W7).

PPS: If the Dell is not your problem, and if you have a BridgeCo based firewire device : ditch that. These have a control panel with 3 separate "buffer" sliders for isochronous, WDM and ASIO. Sorry if I offend someone with this, but it just is so. And *if* you indeed have such a device ... don't laugh ... this is where your dB differences very well may come from. But now I'm highly speculative ...

PPPS: Have a nice day anyway !