Windows 7 Music Server - The First 48 Hours

Hope all is well! I have a few questions: do you feel the crashes are windows 7 related or third party issues? Also, what are the main advantages of using 64bit in this application? Is it to take advantage of more ram?

Thanks

Jesus R
www.sonore.us

Industry wide- there has been a big push to incorporate Windows 7 as a media server. I went over to the 'white side' when Vista was introduced- and have never looked back.

I have seen the 'Beach Ball of Death' only 24 times since the change.

Using a new MS operating system with anything other than brand new hardware is a pathway to heartache.

Forget Windows 7, 8, 9 and eventually 10. Mac is stable for media applications right now.

Hi Jesus - Yes, the crashes were all related to third party issues. Windows 7 by itself seems stable and fast. I'm using 64-bit because I have 10GB of RAM in this machine.

The recent mac release had the apples falling off the tree with Amarra issues. Again it was not the os itself, but third party related.

So back to my party story:) One of the three apples was also a pc user. He happen to be a recording studio owner. His company voiceovermart uses mostly apples (yes he loves them and I heard it more than once), but has a new pc server;) because the one software he really wanted to use was only on a pc......

Regards

Jesus R
www.sonore.us

Chris how much time are you spending downloading and implementing sound cards for Formula One and Formula two?

When I read your articles I feel like you need something like a woodworking jig to make things work. Not the user experience I was thinking about for Windows 7.

Chris:
I have been using Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit for maybe a month now. I have been using Media Monkey and J River music center which is output to USB and straight to a PS Audio DL III DAC. All the music I have been using has been ripped with DVDaexplorer, converted to FLAC, and tagged. All the music started out as DVD Audio Hi Rez selections.

It has been rock solid for me. NO blue screens, no crashing, just working. This is all being done with an HP DV5-1000 laptop which has a Core 2 Duo T5800, 4 Gb ram using wireless N to connect back to a server holding the music. The way I have it set up I am able to "A/B" the original disc in a Lexicon RT-20 player against the software playback through the DLIII and on to the rest of the system. I am pretty sure I am getting 'bit perfect' output because the playback between the 2 devices is as good or better when using the computer with the music ripped to FLAC. I cannot prove this scientifically so take it with a grain of salt. An added benefit is that this particular laptop has IR control with a Microsoft Media Center remote built in so I can run it from across the room.

I look forward to seeing how it works out for you. If you have any way for me to test my results, let me know and I will be glad to participate.

Chuck

Chris - Are you able to get hi-res playback via the new beta Lynx driver? I upgraded the firmware on my aes16e to v9 and upgraded the driver to the new beta version that you are using, and I can no longer play files with resolution >96hz (ie, 176 or 192)(via single-wire output to BDA-1). These previously played fine with this software and hardware configuration. The OS which I encountered this problem on was Vista32, and now having upgraded to Win7_32 it persists. The light on the DAC indicates the resolution of the stream correctly eg, 176, but no sound is produced. The Lynx Mixer Outputs panel also show no activity on the relevant channel when the file being played is above 96k resolution, so this might be a bug in the beta driver, or if you are not experiencing it, a bug in the new aes16e firmware.

Hi Lapierre - Welcome to Computer Audiophile. To answer your question about time spent, I like to think of it this way - I spend the time to find a formula that works, then I write about it so the readers don't have to spend time recreating the wheel.

If someone implemented formula one or two above they would be listening to bit-perfect music in no time.

Hi carloscarr - I believe the new firmware is for 32-bit operating systems only so I skipped it. I can play everything from 44.1 to 192 via single wire just fine. Your issue is similar to one of the issues I encountered over the last couple days. Are you using ASIO? So far it's required in my system.

Hi Chuck - Thanks for the info. Fortunately your USB DAC uses the built-in Windows driver, thus no blue screens. My issues were with third party drivers :~(

I am pretty sure I am getting 'bit perfect' output because the playback between the 2 devices is as good or better when using the computer with the music ripped to FLAC. I cannot prove this scientifically so take it with a grain of salt.

I took it with a pound of salt :~) I wish there was an easy way for you to get more "scientific" verification of bit perfect output. The sound output will likely be pretty good even if it's not bit perfect depending on the amount of bit altering being done.

Any word on USB Class 2 drivers?

I believe we have to wait for sp1.

Using WMP at unity gain will give bit-perfect output, including HDCD. This is according to the dev team that wrote the code. Several are knowledgeable audiophiles (along with their day job as developers :))

What happens with other drivers and players, I don't know. Just see if the HDCD light comes on in an external device, which is a good litmus test. Being able to detect bit perfect playback by ear is I suspect a superhuman feat.

And at less than unity gain, the volume control software is highly sophisticated affair, generally competive with that of high-end DACs that don't use mechanical potentiometers or resistor networks. They were very serious about audio playback in Vista compared to XP, and put a huge engineering effort into it. Win 7 contains additional improvements of an incremental nature.

Having used Windows 7 for a year now, the overall experience is way, way better. The attitude in Redmond was, when it's ready, we ship, and not before, and this shows. The product was tested by a very large community, well into six-figures worldwide.

Chuck,

Do you feel that Windows 7 sounds better, worse or no change from xp or Vista using a USB dac?

Liz

Windows 7 is working fine here with MediaMonkey 3.1.2.1277 + Otachan ASIO plugin SSE + ESI Juli@ 1.07 (SPDIF).
I have an Asus M2NPV-VM motherboard, AMD 6000+ CPU and 2 gigs of RAM.

For me it sounds better than it did with the same config on Windows XP.
Thumbs up!

What is the advantage of using 64 bit ultimate (or Pro) over Home, Premium 64 bit?

-Steve

See their differences here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7_editions

Not much difference at all. For me, I want to know I have every option possible. The price difference wasn't really that much either.

Matias,

Are you running the 64 bit version of Windows 7 with Media monkey 32 bit?

WMP is in no way Bit True under Windows 7 nor does it switch automatically to different sample rates. Thins is the case theoretically and practically (and I have confirmed it (sure with all volumes up to 100)) with my Audio Precision and the Bit True test), but at least the output is 24 Bit. ;-)

Juergen

According to the developers, they're seeing HDCD bit streams passing through WMP and lighting up the HDCD indicator on external devices, at least in the 16 bit form, at unity gain, thus they are inferring bit-perfect in this specific situation, despite the 32 bit floating point volume control. So it's apparently touchy.

My impression is that bit-perfect is available under some, but not all, scenarios. DD/DTS seems to work OK with external receivers, indicating that they're apparently happy with the output; this apparently happens through the DD/DTS bypass mode.

We'll be testing via S/PDIF shortly, and at 24 bits.

That’s right. WMP under W7 does pass a HDCD Track correctly with indication of the HDCD light, but this is far from saying, WMP and W7 is bit true. I have stated this already in an earlier threat at this forum, where I have also stated, that the DTS / DD is also no indication for Bit True.

I have also already stated, that also under Vista, if you do not look seriously to the data, you should think, that if you adjust the output sample rate correctly to the input data, that the data is bit true but this isn’t.

Just run a “simple” constant value test signal (digital DC) or a walking zero signal (either in 16 Bit or 24 Bit resolution) and you will see, it isn’t bit true and does change the data.

Juergen

No no, you are not going to read what you expect after seeing that title ... it is WORSE ...

Some things are just unknown, which doesn't mean I don't know them hehe.

My impression is that bit-perfect is available under some, but not all, scenarios. DD/DTS seems to work OK with external receivers, indicating that they're apparently happy with the output;

Before Vista, people used to perform the "DTS test". This was very common, and it would prove for XP for some situations (soundcards/drivers) whether playback was bit perfect. Not in all cases, and nobody understood it quite well.

The above quote reminded me of one of such unknown things, and this is that with encoded material Vista (and the likes, like W2008, W7) switches to bit perfect mode. It must, or otherwise these streams cannot be played; the encoding would be destroyed.

Now, in here I have seen so so many posts about the HDCD light and the proof of *thus* being bit perfect when the light lits, that I gave up on it and let it be. This, while to me it is more than 100% clear when and when not bit perfect playback is possible over Vista likes. However, during normal thinking and operation this is about ASIO/WASAPI, and not about DTS streams ... of course.

But what I never thought about before is that HDCD has to be treated as encoded material just the same, or otherwise it can not work at the decoding side.

Read what Juergen just wrote ... he is just correct. But with my reason behind things (which is just in the Vista specs !) all things come together. This should mean that :

Vista (etc.) indeed is bit perfect for HDCD material. But only for that (as a kind of representative for red book).

Peter, bringer of bad news, who can now at last put his mind to rest on this subject and who could have come up with this a few years back ...

I'm running Windows 7 Ultimate final x64 with a 64-bit CPU, and MediaMonkey version 3.1.2.1277 + Otachan ASIO plugin. I believe the player and plugin are both 32-bit.
But the player itself seems to run smoother in Windows 7 then it did on Windows XP. And I definitely hear a sound difference for the better.
It's important to notice that there is a Properties menu somewhere for the sound device that allows you to check 44.1 up to 192khz output compatibility.
I can't wait to have my hand on the new MediaMonkey 4 that is being developed. It will feature native WASAPI support, so I can compare WASAPI x ASIO outputs.
My problem is with iPod syncing, whch right now means instant freezing of iTunes and/or MediaMonkey. But that is for another topic.

Peter, bringer of bad news, who can now at last put his mind to rest on this subject and who could have come up with this a few years back ...

I love the sense of humor Peter :~)

Thanks Matias. I use J. River Media Center 14 with ASIO on my current XP laptop. This app has native WASAPI support and I feel it sounds better then Media Monkey. I want to know it that works with the 64 bit version of Windows 7. You can download the program and use for a while so can you please try and let me know?

Thanks in Advance.

I have tested the actual Version of J.River MC 14.0.84 in Windows 7 Home Premium 32 under the exclusive WASAPI Mode and it works perfect in every way.

Juergen

I installed J. River 14 and tried WASAPI in exclusive mode. Sometimes it works, sometimes it gives an error saying that my sound card can't reproduce. The first time I open the player and play a song it works, but I'm still figuring out how to reproduce this and experiment with the configs.
ASIO works fine though, but I didn't have time to compare J.River with MediaMonkey both in native ASIO on Win7 x64.

I just upgraded my Zalman Music Server from WinXP Pro to W7 Pro 64 bit and am hearing improvements in sound quality - increased clarity, resolution and macro/micro detail. I'm not sure how much of the improvements are due to W7 or the new Lynx 64 bit driver for my AES16 PCI card (which drives a Berkeley Alpha DAC), but I am very pleased. I'm using Samplitude 10 as a digital player.

Overall I'm more of an Apple guy, but I must admit that so far I am very impressed with W7. It is decidedly faster, more stable and responsive than WinXP. I use a Netbook to remote control my Zalman with Remote Desktop Connection and compared to WinXP Pro where I would get periodic drop outs in playback I have had zero drop outs with W7.

Matias,

Thanks so much. I use a USB dac and i want to use Win 7 64 bit. Seems to me like the App works. Are you able to use USB to your Dac?

Liz

Hi Chris - I've been a periodic lurker on your site here, and a regular over on Head-Fi for a bit. I have to say you're doing a great job!

I too, was hoping Windows 7 would "finally work." I had high hopes this past couple months as I've been testing the Release Candidate. It actually installed very cleanly and I even had my Older E-Mu 1212m up and running with relatively minimal headache. This computer is my "all-in-one" HTPC, so I needed a full-featured HTPC frontend, and the Windows 7 Media Center certainly delivers the goods. The OS in general is very clean, fast, and has actually been a joy to use...except that I've had a weird latency issue with my 1212m and my keyboard, of all things.

I researched and found this on the Microsoft Developer Website:

The Microsoft Windows audio team is working hard to reduce overall audio latency in future Windows operating systems. An important part of this effort is to provide low-latency implementations of audio APIs in order to eliminate any need to access the KS audio components directly.

The plan for future Windows products is to provide built-in multimedia APIs and core services with very low latency and complete bit-for-bit transparency. These features should eliminate the need for any application program to circumvent the audio subsystem....Be forewarned that the DirectKS approach is unlikely to work on operating systems after Windows XP and Windows Server 2003.

That, from this page:

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/archive/directks.mspx

Now, it's admirable that Microsoft seemed to be working on bit-perfect output, but this was from 2002. We're at 2009, and bit-perfect output seems still a bit far afield. If Microsoft has stuck to their guns, and DirectSound is not yet yielding true bitperfect output, I fear we're in for a long wait.

It's a real pity, because I've actually enjoyed working in the OS. Double-pity because Windows 7 Media Center is the best overall HTPC frontend implementation I've seen even compared to my previous favorite, MediaPortal (which is currently breaking on 7, depending on your situation). It even does quite a few things better than MythTV and XBMC, which I'd also tested pretty extensively.

It does everything except *ahem* play back cleanly while I'm working at the computer.

*Sigh*....I feel like I'm going to have to wander in the desert again for another 40 years.

The entire audio subsystem in Vista was completely rewritten, compared to XP. There was a great deal of development effort (the group was over 1000 persons) to make Vista and MCE capable of high quality audio and video playback for HTPC applications.

The main difference is that in Vista, and now Windows 7, the audio subsystem changed from interger to floating point arithemetic, with sophisticated algorithms used for the volume control. In addition, there is extensive and highly advanced room EQ software under the enhancements tab, assuming that the Lynx drivers support it.

Apparently HDCD playback to the Berkeley Audio is not consistent. In some cases, with volume control set to unity, exclusive mode, etc., you may get the HDCD light to come on. Or you may not :) Would you please try this out for us?

The UI software was also completely rewritten, resulting in much faster apparent responsiveness. However, the general purpose compute speed (databases, image processing, etc.) of Win 7 is very roughly half that of XP, depending on the task, other conditions being equal. XP was an exceptionally fast operating system, although it is rather limited in many ways compared to Vista/Win 7.

What's fundamentally different about Win 7 is that, compared to XP, it is enormously more scalable in terms of improvement in performance as the number of cores increases. As the cores head towards 8 and 16, Win 7 will then be about as fast, or faster than XP. If you check out typical consumer desktops at Costco, they're already 4 cores, which when hyperthreaded, yields 8 functional cores.

So Win 7 performance is coming up very quickly, together with declining cost to consumers.

To use the exclusive WASAPI mode in J.River correctly you have to set two important windows right: Go to: Tools – Options – Playback – DSP … - Output Format – Bitdepth – and choose 24 Bit (in case you have a 24 Bit soundcard) and the second point is: Go to: Tools – Options – Playback – Output Mode setting – and remove the point “present 24-bit data in a 32 bit package and then for me, J.River works perfect in Windows 7 and Vista, 100 % Bit True.

Sound of in Windows 7: I must also confirm that for me the sound in Windows 7, with absolutely the same hardware as in Vista, is more transparent with more resolution and more detail. A slightly weaker bass, but I think this comes from the higher resolution in the treble. Also the latency seems smaller, than in Vista. But still no native support for 88200 Hz (but either WASAPI or manufacturer made W7 driver can circumvent this point and will play 88.2).

USB DAC is working fine in Windows 7.

I have just repeated three measurements with Windows 7 for Bit True test and only the exclusive WASAPI mode is natively bit perfect in Windows 7, nor the Direct Sound Out or the Wave Out is. I am sorry, that I can’t post any pictures; otherwise you would be able to see it also.

Juergen

PS: I used my “special” Bit True test signal, created out of two different Bit True test signals from the Audio Precision System. This is a 16 Bit DC (constant value) on the left channel and 24 Bit Walking Zero test on the right channel test, to use only one test for testing bit true digital systems.

Hi zaubertuba - welcome here !

I think your post fairly well represents what most people think about audio and Windows, but in the mean time you may have missed the point. I mean, the low latency is in (far better possibilities than ASIO ever will achieve) all is outside the kernel (streaming) (meaning : at the "user level" now), and all is bit perfect now without hassle. And you know it ... it is called WASAPI.

That software players need to support that, and that you need to choose it as playback device is another matter. But it is all there as promised, and personally (from the developer point of view) I think it is great.

Regards,
Peter

Actually I'm having trouble to make the sound work with my Juli@ in Windows 7 overall. Sound effects, YouTube, nothing sounds except ASIO in MediaMonkey or J.River. I tried switching analog/digital, enable/disable devices, testing and troubleshooting... and nothing.
Clean install on formated drive + newest drivers, everything as clean as it could be. Very annoying.

JR_Audio, I tried the settings you said and still no good. I guess the drivers are broken.

@XXHighEnd:

"What!? I'm using legacy drivers on an old soundcard on a spanking-new OS and they're not working perfectly?!" --All that just to say, point well-taken. ;)

The E-Mu drivers may indeed be causing part of my headache, as they continue to try to use ASIO. I suppose it's a wonder the card works at all. *sigh* I may end up having to upgrade my soundcard. Pity, because it really does sound quite decent when I'm *not hammering away at the keyboard.

I still see a problem, though if Chris and others are having problems getting more modern cards/updated drivers working, then what's left? How long do we have to wait for the card manufacturers to step up to the plate?

Considering this, maybe external would be a better option. How's Windows 7 for USB or S/PDIF to an external DAC?

EDIT: I may be barking up the wrong tree. Some research suggests my issue may be related to some other hardware. Stay tuned! ;)

Hi Matias,

First of all notice there are new W7 drivers for the Juli@. I won't say that helps because it just as well can be player issues. The only thing I know from a couple of XXHighEnd users is that they don't see a problem whatsoever with W7 and the former Juli@ drivers.

Also notice that a WASAPI implementation can be done in many ways (by the developers), so it doesn't say much when one works, about the other.

And FYI :
By now I have one call from one user, which call seems to prove that something working under Vista does not under W7. This could be accidentally solved by settings in XXHE, but this is/was certainly not my intention. Were this setting not there, the sound for this user would just have stopped under W7.
So it seems there *is* something going on. And this is about normal USB ...

HTH a bit,
Peter

:-)

EMU drivers are a hell. But it can be done. You may contact the person (Gerard) of this post on how to do it for your 1212m : http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=943.msg7853#msg7853

He doesn't use W7, but I don't think that matters.

Good luck,
Peter

I installed the latest and greatest drivers on their website, v1.07, in a clean Win7. If it doesn't work that way, I can't imagine why.

Matias, it won't be so that you are using RDC ? if so, W7 has some new (?) config parameter, and without explicitly changing that you won't even see the proper sound devices.

If this is not it, I guess here my help ends. You may try XXHighEnd though, and when it doesn't work there I am quite confident I will be able to solve the problem for you. I mean, I know what is happening in XXHE plus I know it works. This means for you it will get to work too. And next you hop back to MM or whatever you want. No problem.
One thing to keep in mind when you are going to try this route : when it works right from the start I still can't help any further (well, I think).

In XXHE Settings, set your DAC Is to whatever it is (the DAC behind the Juli@ if there, otherwise 24/192 which the Juli@ is) and set DAC Needs to 32 (!).
Don't forget to use Engine3 (WASAPI) and slide up the volume to the max, assuming you're using a preamp.
If you have no sound in this setting, but everything seems to work, try Q1 (slider) settings of 4, 14 and 20; I have an indication that this may differ (while in Vista it worked always).

If you don't feel like trying this, I am as ok.

Peter

Tested this player with my Win7 x64 + Juli@ 1.07 @ SPDIF.
External DAC is a Benchmark DAC1 USB @ SPDIF.
Engines #1 and #2 don't play, says it is out of memory.
Engine #3 plays with muted sound, no output in the Juli@'s mixer.
BTW, I tried registering to your forum but you won't accept Gmail accounts. :(

Thanks Peter, but as it turns out, I was indeed barking up the wrong tree. Turned out the problem was....

....my keyboard. Or possibly the PS2 port on my Motherboard.

I ran DPC latency checker and it was showing major latency spikes whenever I typed. Another ASIO buffer test I did with a Cubasis configuration tool showed that Cubasis actually lost sync with the card when I typed (it was fine if I didn't touch anything).

I'm using a borrowed USB keyboard to type this. No clicking, no distortion, no crazy latency spikes. The Cubasis test shows sync is maintained perfectly even if I type like the dickens while it's running.

I'm obviously exceedingly happy it was such a simple solution. I get to hold onto my 1212m after all! :D

This is an amazing but true story. The interaction of a keyboard, PS2 port, whatever, created a problem. Somewhere someone else may have reported a similar problem, so it always pays to Bing or Google even the weirdest symptoms.

Who knows?

If you look at the telemetry for Windows crashes, turns out roughly 50% are caused by nVidia drivers. Hmm. Wonder what part of the computer they're controlling? Then about 40% are caused by ATI drivers (notice we're up to 90% already). And about 5% are caused by Intel drivers (now 95%).

All other causes of BSOD are about 5% of the total. Fortunately BSOD is a very rare occurrence these days, despite what moron fanboys regurgitate, but if it's happening to you because of an audio driver, that's probably not much consolation :)

I suspect that if you looked at similar data for Mac kernel panics, you'd seem something similar. Does anyone have data on this?

After all, the screen is about the only component of the computer that's always in use, every CPU cycle...

I had a similar problem as the previous poster had from a PS/2 keyboard, however, with the help of the dpc latency checker ( http://www.thesycon.de/dpclat/dpclat.exe ), I was able to identify the source of the problem with ASIO dropouts and latency spikes on my Lynx aes16e card: it was conflict with my wireless adapter (DWA-552), whose Windows 7 drivers are evidently poorly behaved.
I resolved this conflict by disabling the wirelss card, but for now I've rolled back to Vista because IMHO the beta Lynx drivers sound better on Vista than on Win7. Maybe by the time they come out in the final release this will be resolved. I still have Win7 on all my other (non-media server) computers, it's a great OS but with a few teething pains....

I installed my DAC1 in USB mode, set it as default device and everything sounds OK.
Juli@ only works in ASIO mode inside the players, the driver is broken.
XXHighEnd works with DAC1 USB in Mode#2 only.
J.River can't play WASAPI with the DAC1 USB.

Matias,

Are you not able to get J. River MC to play with Wasapi? Can you get it to play with Direct Sound? How do you like the SQ using Windows 7 as compared to XP or Vista please?

Liz

Matias,

I am the most sorry about gmail not being allowed; otherwise the Russian spammers are all over. You can try any other account though.

I feel this is not the place to work out your connection, but when the Benchmark doesn't play WASAPI on JRiver, I guess it needs a "DAC Needs" setting of 24 bits (and a "DAC Is" of 24/96), but, when USB connected. When this indeed works like that, connecting it SPDIF through the Juli@ would be an interesting combination because now the Juli@ needs to output 24 bits of which I currently don't know whether it can do that (meaning : it will probably be 32).

If you don't think it is too much trouble please try to get another account and I'll help you out till I drop dead. No obligations.

Peter

@Wonders:

I did Google the heck out of the issue, but came up blank. Got some useful info. from one of my IT colleagues at work, though. :)

After I solved the problem, somebody pointed out that perhaps it's a bandwidth or priority issue between USB and PS2 ports. Like you say...who knows? It's still somewhat of a mystery to me.

What machine and its specs are you using for the Win7 install?
Was the install fresh or upgrade? I read from Microsoft that XP installs can't be upgraded to 7, although Vista to Win 7 is OK with some drama about digital river purchases.
How do you measure bit perfect output?

I installed Win7 on two machines ... one a 64 bit upgrade and the other a 32 bit upgrade. Former went fine. Latter has been a nightmare.

There is a conflict/bug in my Dell 1210 Broadcom NC 440x 10/100 Integrated Controller drivers. None of the drivers, going as far back as XP and as new as the latest release, work. Has trouble holding an ethernet connection, Auto speed control does not work, etc. My Tech Support guy spent 5 hours on this to no avail. It'll hold a connection if connected directly to the router, but only if the speed/frame settings are precisely tweaked, and won't hold a connection on any connection that has an extra device in between (like a hub).

Based on this I would only switch to Win7 with the purchase of a new machine.

Eventually, complete change out of the motherboard, which contains the controller, fixed the issue. I suspect something about the upgrade process caused some firmware on the board to get corrupted, or, reset something deep in the BIOS that the tech support teams don't yet know about.

I'm awaiting my copy, should arrive next week..

However, I'm a bit surprised I couldn't find foobar among all the posts here. Perhaps it works so well that noone had any issues to report? (Yet?)

Well, perhaps I'm among the list of people with problems as of next week.

:D

Juli@ works fine with Windows 7 x64 final using drivers v1.05.
Actually MME hangs only if latency is large (like 2048 samples).
WASAPI now works in J.River, as long as the buffer is smaller then 1.5 seconds.
I'll try comparing sound quality between WASAPI and ASIO later.

Have been running Foo + Wasapi on 7RC for 5 months now - no problem so far. I get crashes (still) from Firefox and 7 but that is a 32/64 problem.

Sounds very decent. Not as good as MPD & linux but ok.

Cheers
A

Chris,
My Dell Dimension 8400 running XP Pro, using MM, and equipped with a Lynx AES16, connected to my Benchmark USB with an AES cable, just died. I've repaired/replaced the motherboard and power supply on previous occasions, and am thinking that it's time to buy a replacement. I will need a machine that the kids can do their homework on, so something akin to the Dell Inspiron 530 you've written about might fit the bill. Do you have any further thoughts on Windows based operating systems? I'm particularly interested to know what you hear when you use your Windows 7 system. Any further comments to offer after the frustrating first 48 hours?
Many thanks!

Important question (or is it a dumb one??)... using WASAPI exclusive, is ANY digital out of a PC necessarily bit-perfect??

For XP I had an M-Audio Audiophile USB via ASIO. Now on Windows 7 via WASAPI exclusive, will this be bit-perfect too??

And how about the SPDIF out of ANY mainboard out there?

Can we conclude that getting a bit-perfect out of a PC has just got significantly cheaper? Or in another way, exclusively for digital audio out, why would anyone pay extra for a 'good' soundcard in a Windows 7 platform?

Am I missing something? thanks.

Hi Neovibe - I wish I could say yes to everything in your post, but right now it isn't that simple :~(

It's really hard to guarantee bit perfect because everyone's PC is so different and many things can creep up that other people would never think of.

ok, I do understand... some things are so complex than unless we have a low level detailed understanding of it all, then, in general it becomes more of a random phenomenon, a black art... or audiophile :)

more to the point now, m-audio usb soundcard (with windows 7 drivers) bit-true or not? what's your opinion?

It depends on the driver, playback software, volume controls, output method (ASIO, WASAPI, etc...), and settings within the playback software. This is one of those things that makes a Mac so appealing to people. I'm using Windows 7 hardcore right now with a couple soundcards and I like it. Mac isn't the only game in town it's just the easier one.

Of course WASAPI is bit perfect in exclusive mode. And Chris, this time it is a plain 100% sure. Haha

But, let's keep in mind there are a few more or less fuzzy reasons why the output may not be bit perfect afterall :

1.
The player messes up. Thus, bugs. Not much likely in general.

2.
You use something from the player that won't allow bit perfectness, such as using the digital volume of the player (Windows volume is not operable anyway).

3.
You think you use Exclusive Mode, but don't afterall.
This may be the most tricky one, and depends on the player. The players I know of which guarantee using Exlusive Mode at all times are Foobar and XXHighEnd. All of the others may switch to Shared Mode (which is not bit perfect) unnoticed because of various reasons (like the wanted sample rate not being supported by the hardware, thus incurring for resampling which Exclusive Mode CAN NOT do).

4.
The hardware (soundcard) resamples. This is highly unlikely these days, and happened with the older Soundblaster stuff (to 48KHz).

So yes, your M-Audio will be bit-perfect on W7.
And yes SPDIF out from whatever main board is bit perfect.

But ... this (again 100% sure) does not imply all will sound equal. The SPDIF out from the main board will sound like sh*t (never mind it is as bit perfect as it can be), as Foobar will sound competely different from XXHighEnd never mind their output measures equal (in the digital domain). I even managed to let sound the two (currently remaining) sound engines from XXHighEnd sound *completely* different, and yet both are bit perfect.

In the end you can very well conclude that "bit perfect" doesn't guarantee anything for "the best" sound.
What a life ...

Peter

You are right, but I want to add some small points.

You said, being Bit-True, does not guarantee perfect sound, that’s right, but without being Bit True, you are far from having perfect sound.

So for example with iTunes under Windows 7 you can’t get the same Bit-True result when adjusting the correct Sample Rate, as with iTunes under Mac, no way.

With the actual QuickTime under Windows 7 you have three different output modes and also a “WASAPI” mode, but this is not exclusive WASAPI, so also not Bit True.

As stated PeterSt, with exclusive WASAPI mode, windows has no control of the volume (lucky it is not), so you can use this behavior the other way round. If you choose for example QuickTime (under Win7 or Vista) and select the “WASAPI” mode you will see when playing back a file, that Windows opens an extra Volume slider named with “QuickTime”, so you clearly see, that this can’t be Bit True, because it goes over the Windows Mixer. Instead if you are running in Exclusive WASAPI Mode J.River Media Center 14 or Foobar2000, you will notice that no additional slider will appear in Windows and that you have no control of the sound with the windows output slider. So this way you have real 1:1 Bit True output with automatically sample rate switch and also with 88.2 kHz sample rate output, that you will not have with the Wave or Direct Sound out in Win7 or Vista.

Juergen

So a couple of conclusions:
- bit-perfect is a requirement but not sufficient
- "Mac isn't the only game in town it's just the easier one." (Chris)

It still feels strange to me that 2 bit-perfect signals can sound different. In the end it does not matter, each one should listen and if there's no difference pick the cheapest solution, if there is a difference go for the best you can/want to pay. Problem is from a when you need to make choices without much chance of listening to the several options... then this sort of discussion is indeed helpful (no matter how pointless it may seem to some people).

But as Chris pointed, Mac is always the easier option... how many threads are there discussing bit-perfect in apple platforms? It's guaranteed out-of-the-box (ok, so then there's the Amarra question...) but it's always more expensive in hardware and much less flexible than PC... time to make a decision....

thank you all for your clarifications :)

Judging by the forum posts, WASAPI under Vista and W7 is still pretty shaky. My own experience is that in a gross sense, it works (sound comes out), but there are ticks and pops. This is going out via USB and 1394.

Juergen, Chris, have any comments? Is Media Monkey or Foobar any better in this regard?

Hi Nicholas - Good timing. WASAPI with my Lynx card works perfect. Via USB is another story. I am actually delivering a specific DAC to J River tomorrow so they can work out some WASAPI USB pop & tick issues.

I am in hurry, because I have to leave soon, will be out of office for two days, but are these clicks and pops with a specific version of MC14? I was running MC14 at the January CES all show days on an USB DAC without any click during the complete show.

Next week I will be in Far East for another show and will use J.River MC14 on my portable MacBook via BootCamp Windows 7 and exclusive WASAPI, so I will make some testing with the actual version of J.River when I am back in office before I head to Far East.

Juergen

Hi Juergen - I am using the absolute newest version available in the JRMC forum 14.0.147.

Now I am back in my office and was able to do some newer tests on J.River MC Version 14.0.151

OS and Hardware: Windows 7 (32-Bit) Home Premium on MacBook 2.1 via BootCamp 3.1.

J.River output via exclusive WASAPI Mode with the following detailed settings:
Yes on: Open device for exclusive access
No on: Flush device buffers on startup
Yes on: Flush device buffers on pause
No on: Present 24-Bit data in a 32-bit package

Output set to 24 Bit in the output format field of the DSP studio.

This test I have done on three different USB DACs:
1. 16 Bit / 48 K, Burr Brown PCM2706 Interface, Isochronous adaptive Mode
2. 24 Bit / 96 K, TI 1020B, CEntrance Code, Isochronous adaptive Mode
3. 24 Bit / 96 K, TI 1020B, with Isochronous asynchronous Mode

The USB DACs where connected to a root hub of my MacBook (the right hand side jack of the two USB ports, that are on the left side, not the left hand side (this is shared with the keyboard)).

File Test: J.River MC14 (Version 14.0.151) does play back WAVE, AIFF and FLAC all with Tags and Album Art (even with the Wave File (if stored with the BWF broadcast extension).

Bit True: It plays 16 Bit and 24 Bit Wave, AIFF and FLAC Files, all with automatic sample rate change and every type 1:1 Bit True (tested with 44.1, 48, 88.2 and 96 K).

I have absolutely no stuttering, or drops or anything. Everything went perfect.

Juergen

PS: For testing the PCM2706, I have set the Bit width in the DSP studio to 16 Bit and limited the test to only 44.1 and 48 K.

Hello Juergen,

Thanks for the great report and data. I'm running Vista 32 and JR .151, and have gotten good, but imperfect results so far.

BTW before I forget, what do you think about the dSC White Paper on "bit perfect" from WMP and Vista. I wonder how they're doing it? They don't mention WASAPI as I recall.

Using WASAPI to bypass the WMP volume control is a big step forward from the audiophile perspective. WASAPI gives a rather different soundstage and timbral balance. With WMP, the soundstage "bulges" forward into the room, and instruments seem rounded, full (in a rather pleasing way) and larger-than-life.

For example, using WMP, in a Mozart piano concerto, the piano in the center tends to be pushed forward, too large and "deep", timbre-wise, but overall, the sound is really very good, rich, even if probably a little too rich. The variation from reality is definitely euphonic and enjoyable. This is the Bavarian pastry-shop of music.

With WASAPI, "everything" falls back into its proper place spatially; you see the orchestra "hanging" in a horizontal line in front of you, with images properly sized. There's excellent soundstaging, using the Lavry DA-11, with layers of depth from front to back, and room-width laterally.

Compared to WMP, with WASAPI the instruments have a somewhat leaner, smaller image, but overall, the sound much more much accurately reflects that in a real concert hall with real instruments. You can just about fool yourself that you're at a live performance. And with female vocalists, the illusion is just about complete. WASAPI is definitely a big improvement. The Lavry DA-11 brings out the chromatic radiance of the piano, and one has the distinct impression that it is a primarily wooden, albeit steel-stringed instrument, rather than a glassy or metallic one. Violins sound like the fragile contraptions that they are, and the sounds emitted have a totally natural, nourishing, heart-softening raspy, but pleasant buzz to them, sort of like the sounds of insects in the forest.

WMP via 1394 is about 6 dB louder than WASAPI even though all enhancements are disabled.

But there are still (somtimes) annoying ticks and gaps using WASAPI via J River on USB or 1394. It seems to go in phases, with long periods of time without any problems.

Moving over to USB, on my Toshiba Qosmio machine, there are 4 USB and 1 USB 2 controllers showing up in Device Manager, with 4 USB ports. The one used by the DAC shows having 45% of the available bandwidth reserved for it, which should be plenty. So apparently the Lavry is a USB, not USB 2 device.

USB is about 3 dB louder than WASAPI, and the sound is brighter, more detailed, relatively unnatural compared to WASAPI or S/PDIF via WMP. The soundstage is flattened front to back, instruments and voices are wider, grainy, and massed strings are piercing. Overall WASAPI via USB sounds about the same as WMP via USB.

With USB and WASAPI, one has to set the number of channels and bit rate, or JR gets confused. With 1394, the settings can be left at "determined by source".

Nicholas I am a little bit short in time, because I am on business vacation, but some small comments from my side:

Something is a bit strange for me, because if you set your software to be Bit True (either JRiver MC14, or Foobar 2000), it has the same level whether you use the WASAPI driver or the ASIO driver, even Direct Sound or Wave have very similar levels (they differ only in the 24th bit).

And additionally, I can use my SPDIF Out, or AES/EBU Out, or USB out or Firewire Out, into one of my different DACs, I have absolutely the same level with each interface. Why should I have different levels, because for example – 20 dBFS is the same digital value on every interface?

The dCS white paper is in my opinion too much simplified, so I would not use it as reference. The dCS DACs are great, without doubt, but this white paper about computer playback is far from that.

Juergen

Hi,

I would have said the same as Juergen, including my opinion about this paper (there is another thread in here about it, including my "ideas" about it). But about the dB values I thought this could be the explanation :

It is clear to me, no matter all is bit perfect, the one player (or audio engine in there) can easily show a louder (perceived ?) SPL than the other, because of more harshness and the like. So, for me (and my community the same) it is often about "hey, I can play much louder now !", and it is supposed to be a virtue (less harshness etc.). Now, the only additional thing it takes, is that this "harshness" can be captured by a (measuring) microphone, and it can show the additional SPL coming from it.
Btw, I once had an XXHE version which clearly showed 20dB more SPL in the sub low region. Still bit perfect.

So the question to Nicholas : were you measuring this by means of a radioshack (etc.) SPL meter ?
Peter

Hi Juergen:

Does business vacation mean that you're making money and having a good time? In case you're in Hawaii, come on over.

With some additional listening, I'm getting very good results WASAPI via (glass) TOSLINK (another Wireworld cable) to the Lavry... no ticks or pauses. TOSLINK still sounds way better than USB.

Thanks for the comments on the dCS paper; it we can get the story behind the measurements, they will probably make a lot more sense. Channels are being opened...

Bon voyage...

Nick

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the comments. Sure, my observations were based on subjective estimates and objective methods, which, for once, agree closely.

With a trusty RS SPL meter, with pink noise as well as 315 Hz and 1000 Hz tones, the results at the listening position are:

Windows Media Player
88 db, 1394 to SPDIF to DAC
82 dB, USB to DAC
82 dB, TOSLINK to DAC

JR River (WASAPI and DS modes were identical)
82 dB, 1394 to SPDIF to DAC
86 dB, USB to DAC
86 dB, TOSLINK to DAC

So the initial subjective observation that the WASAPI/DS from JR was 6 dB down from WMP was about right. Why these numbers vary at all between players and modes is probably obscure. Presumably the DSP within the Windows audio stack is part of the answer, and the entry-level 1394 to S/PDIF is another part.

Getting digital correctly isn't easy.

Hi Nicholas,

We better forget about my earlier remarks; something else must be going on. 4dB for pink noise is a lot, and nothing like I suggested - which would be about certain frequencies and/or harmonics combinations.

This can hardly be all bit-true.
But maybe it is an idea to call it operator error ? haha. Measuring properly with an SPL meter isn't all that easy, and while you must keep the distance the same (easy) there also shouldn't be something else in a different place (YOU !) because of reflections. And maybe you didn't see it, but your last list isn't 100% consistent with your post earlier.

Anyway ... I don't recall performing (SPL) tests like this to relatively judge a player or playback means, and maybe you shouldn't do it either. Maybe it is better to use the known theories, like WASAPI being bit-true if used in Exlcusive Mode. Or read Juergens posts. Just use it, and if you like the sound, keep on using it (btw, your description of the sound of WASAPI is creapily close to what I would say, compared to something like DS).

Also to keep in mind : WASAPI doesn't contain or produce ticks and the like. Oh, it sure may differ from player to player how easy it is to incur for them, but try to keep in mind it's always your PC. So, never mind with e.g. ASIO everything is allright, it still is your PC.

Getting digital correctly isn't easy.

Not yet. But we are learning.
Peter

Oh, oh, Nicholas, this sounds wired.

I would recommend, you leave WMP at side (at least for this moment, or forever, because I can't play bit true), in concentrate on JR MC14. Go through the settings, that Chris has posted at his J.River post, and this will guide to you good sound. And if you are happy with Toslink, that's fine, go for it and take it.

Good luck.

Juergen

PS: I am sorry, I am not in Hawaii and can't visit you, right now I am in Asia, and yes, business vacation means making money and also having some good time, but I must tell you, I love my job a lot.

I agree that WASAPI bit-perfect through J River is definitely the way to go, for our situation. The only problem right now is that the 1394 output seems to have some ticks and pops; however, the 1394/SPDIF interface may well be the problem.

USB and TOSLINK SPDIF are at least tick-free, and while the USB audio is not acceptable, the TOSLINK with a glass fiber is suprisingingly good. 1394 is better, but at the moment is a bit problematic with the tick artifacts. Seems like hardly anyone has software that will run on typical Windows (meaning HP, Acer, Asus, Dell) laptop 1394 chipsets.

Have fun on your trip! Nice time of year to go to Thailand; probably still a bit chilly in Japan and northern China. Keep in mind that it's only 7-8 hours from Tokyo to Honolulu; about 10 hours from Taipei.

Nicholas:
You say "USB and TOSLINK SPDIF are at least tick-free, and while the USB audio is not acceptable, the TOSLINK with a glass fiber is suprisingingly good."

It appears you are referring to USB going out straight to a DAC. What about going through a converter such as the M2Tech Hiface or one of the others around? Is the only reason you say USB is unacceptable is because it will not playback higher resolution than 48 KHz native or is there more to it? Curious to hear what you have to say.

Chuck

Good question...

In this particular situation, feeding this particular DAC directly with USB doesn't produce as good results as TOSLINK (with glass optical fiber, not plastic, from Wireworld). The best results are with 1394 converted to S/PDIF input to the DAC. However, at the moment at least, the 1394 source is plagued with occasional ticks or gaps or whatevers.

The soundstage of the USB is flattened, front to back, and the images are spread out a bit; there's a combination of muffling, and exaggerated transients, together with global grittiness, that shouldn't be there. Some commonly available USB products sound this way: They're producing a music-like sound product that really isn't very good at all, compared to the real thing or reference-level gear.

Some higher-quality USB and 1394 to S/PDIF converters are on the way in house, so it will be interesting to hear how they perform.

Some 1394-equipped devices do not work well, or at all, on many consumer laptops. Basically the manufacturers don't have the ability to handle the software issues, and think that because it works on one 1394 chipset, OS and driver, their work is done.

Same with USB. Some designers have it nailed, according to reviews, while others have not done as well. The connection of high-end DACs to noise-spewing computers is fraught with peril :).

Hi Nicholas. I just browsed over the Lavry DAC but I haven't found any information what kind of USB implementation, so if you are not happy with the sound of that input, leave it.

I hope you will find the issue with your 1394 to SPDIF converter, because this can give you an even better sound, than with Toslink, even if you have a glass fibre cable, the Toslink receiver and transmitter introduce Jitter, but on the other hand, Lavry has a good jitter reduction unit.

Juergen

PS: Yes, it is a nice weather here in Thailand. We were sitting outside in an restaurant until after midnight, only with T-shirt, and it was very pleasant with the temperature.

Hi again Nicholas,

Why do I have the feeling that you mix things which I wouldn't ? (yea, that can be me ! haha).

Seems like hardly anyone has software that will run on typical Windows (meaning HP, Acer, Asus, Dell) laptop 1394 chipsets.

What software are you talking about ? I mean, the only software you *could* mean is driver software, but I have the hunch you refer to something else ...

For your Firewire clicks, you may go into the driver's control panel, and pump up the buffer size. Notice that anything under 128 (samples) is too low for general purpose "software" - and I mean player software here.

But your very best option would be to ditch the Dell (might that be the one creating Firewire problems).
Just my experience.

Peter

PS: Don't forget to install the legacy Firewire driver over the one which comes with W7, no matter the manufacturer tells you he solved the problems with it (the driver which comes with W7).

PPS: If the Dell is not your problem, and if you have a BridgeCo based firewire device : ditch that. These have a control panel with 3 separate "buffer" sliders for isochronous, WDM and ASIO. Sorry if I offend someone with this, but it just is so. And *if* you indeed have such a device ... don't laugh ... this is where your dB differences very well may come from. But now I'm highly speculative ...

PPPS: Have a nice day anyway !