Windows 7 Audio & J River Media Center 14 Configuration

Cool Chris,

this is the article every 'windows' audiophile was expecting.
This gives a good insight of what is to be done to achieve bit-perfectness.

And JRMC 14 really rocks (I'm using the prebuffer + memory combo).

Elp

PS : I have to try the multizone feature, and the html frontend, thanks for pointing these features :)

I can't begin to tell you how incredibly useful this article was. I'd like to see others on Foobar2K, MediaMonkey, etc. Thanks, Chris!

Vade Forrester

Chris,

A cool new feature Matt put in just recently removed the requirement for J River to convert Flat PCM data to Floating Point and back again for Exclusive mode use.

Instead Matt changed the code so it would go directly to the DAC from the file.

These are the types of things that are driving Computer Audio to the fore front of technology in our industry.

Thanks
Gordon

I too really like MC14. With plenty of memory and a solid state drive it works really well.

Any direct head to head comparisons with Amarra?

Chris, forgive the bluntness as I'm pressed for time this morning but... how does it sound?

Great article if I'm going to try it, which I would if you told me it sounded good. So how about some description of sound quality and/or comparisons to say iTunes with Amarra?

Do you have a second installment coming?

He Gordon,

which version does support this feature ?

Thx,
Elp

I think your info on XXHighEnd may be out of date. It seems that many users find the latest version sounds superior with direct kernel streaming rather than using WASAPI. I may have read that MediaMonkey and foobar users also find that direct kernel streaming to sound better. Perhaps PeterSt can provide more insight.

Fantastic overview of Win7 & JRMC.

Question: given the issues with regard to bit-perfect audio and Windows 7, do you think it would be better advised to use Windows XP + ASIO for JRMC?

"I think your info on XXHighEnd may be out of date."

Hi Zorro - As of this second XX High-End engine #3 uses WASAPI and engine #4 uses KS. I believe my statement is still current :~)

What engine sounds better is another story, but I didn't address that in the article.

Siafu, I have both XP and Windows 7 setups, and the Win 7 sounds markedly better.

Sometimes or perhaps most of the time, it's hard to separate out the OS, from the device, from the device driver. You're extremely lucky when you have a well supported audio device that has several different driver versions for each version of OS. Normally you also have to add the media player, but since this is a J River post and J River is one of the more progressive multimedia players for video and audio one can reasonably assume that development for visual and sonic improvements is largely occurring under Win 7 and not XP.

One feature that you didn't mention that I really like about JRMC 14 is its Library Server. With Library Server you can designate one computer as the server and use all other computers in the network to access your library server. For example, I can have my HTPC playing music. I can then start JRMC on my laptop and choose to either play the music that is on the server through the laptop, or I can control the music that is already playing on the server. In Playing Now you will see both a Zone 1 and There: Zone 1 for controlling the music. By choosing There: Zone 1, the laptop becomes essentially a remote control for the HTPC.

Library Server streams your music lossless if you have enough bandwidth so you can even use it over the internet. While I am at my office I can stream lossless music from my home computer. I can also access friends or relatives Library Servers if they have given me permission and the IP address.

I have used JRMC for about 4-5 years (since version 9). I just switched from XP to Windows 7 on my HTPC. When using either ASIO or WASAPI Exclusive Mode it sounds better on Windows 7.

Chris: Happy to see that you finally got into J.River MC14 (which is in my opinion really nice software for windows). I have just came home into my office, but have to pack again, so I will read your article on the plane.

For the reason, that I have done some actual measurements on J.River for another post of this website, I will also add these results to your article, because even I haven’t read your article, I think it will match.

OS, Hardware and Software: J.River MC Version 14.0.151 on Windows 7 (32-Bit) Home Premium on MacBook 2.1 via BootCamp 3.1.

J.River output via exclusive WASAPI Mode with the following detailed settings:
Yes on: Open device for exclusive access (must)
No on: Flush device buffers on startup (optional)
Yes on: Flush device buffers on pause (optional)
No on: Present 24-Bit data in a 32-bit package (must)

Output set to 24 Bit in the output format field of the DSP studio (must)

This test I have done on three different USB DACs:
1. 16 Bit / 48 K, Burr Brown PCM2706 Interface, Isochronous adaptive Mode
2. 24 Bit / 96 K, TI 1020B, CEntrance Code, Isochronous adaptive Mode
3. 24 Bit / 96 K, TI 1020B, with Isochronous asynchronous Mode

The USB DACs where connected to a root hub of my MacBook (the right hand side jack of the two USB ports, that are on the left side, not the left hand side (this is shared with the keyboard)).

File Test: J.River MC14 (Version 14.0.151) does play back WAVE, AIFF and FLAC all with Tags and Album Art (even with the Wave File (if stored with the BWF broadcast extension).

Bit True: It plays 16 Bit and 24 Bit Wave, AIFF and FLAC Files, all with automatic sample rate change and every type 1:1 Bit True (tested with 44.1, 48, 88.2 and 96 K).

I have absolutely no stuttering, or drops or anything. Everything went perfect.

And to answer some other questions, that I flew over on this post, yes the exclusive WASAPI Mode on native USB DACs sound better than ASIO via ASIO4ALL out and yes, Windows 7 sound better than XP and also slightly better than Vista.

And an last addition: With exclusive WASAPI you can play natively 88.2 kHz in Windows 7 and in Vista, even you can not find this sample rate in the windows system audio settings.

Juergen

PS: For testing the PCM2706, I have set the Bit width in the DSP studio to 16 Bit and limited the test to only 44.1 and 48 K.

Excellent article that filled in (many) of my knowledge gaps.

"Bangin'"

Juergen,

as always, very valuable post.
Thanks a lot for allowing me (back then with Peter) to achieve bit-perfectness.

Elp

Great to see Chris. and Matt has been hard at work constantly pushing the envelope at JR.

I have been a long time user and recently starting streaming 24/96 over WAN to my office (well, last year). Suddenly, a month ago I started getting dropouts and buffering. I've triple checked my network at home and not sure where the problem lies. So for now, I have to enable transcoding on the fly. Still, Library Server is great.

A newer feature, sorry if I missed mention of it, is There Zones (aka Treemote).

I have Touchsmart in the kitchen which displays Zone 1 & 2 for exampel, but it can also see me 2 other living room zones on the master HTPC (Lynx feeding the hifi, and onboard feeding a Gianlcone amp for outdoor speakers). So if the three year old needs his show turned off for bedtime, and I don't have my iPhone, I have full control over OTHER instances of J. River running on my network. This two way communication is pretty incredible. The Touchsmart is pulling the Library from the HTPC of course and thus can be streamed to, OR act as a remote control.

My wife could also turn off the tunes outside whereas I may be outside controlling them on my iPhone. LOTS of functionality here, which brings me to XXHIghend. No comment. I AB'd JR and XX and I heard zero difference, and the usability of MC14 is probably 4000% greater then XXhighEnd. There are many other features which bring this hobby back to what it's about, enjoying your music AND your collection (organizing, cleaning metadata, web features, smartlists and filters, image searches and cover art auto tagging, quickly comparing versions, statistics, access to FreeDB, Gracenote, and JR's YADB for metadata) the list goes on and on, and it sounds great with audiophile features to boot. Oh, and maybe a little 1080P video streaming over Library Server too as an afterthought, not to mention the new DLNA control of PS3, etc.

hifi

I looked at JRMC 14 last week and ran into a small problem with WASAPI and Apple Lossless files. JRMC would not playback Apple Lossless files using WASAPI. WMA files (and maybe even WAV) worked fine. JRMC was configured properly.

The easy check for WASAPI is to open the sound control from the tray area. If there's a green bar bouncing to the music and you can change the volume here, then WASAPI is not being used. I'm running Win 7 Home Premium 64 bit.

Foobar with WASAPI is awesome!

I do think there are some issues that need to be ironed out regarding WASAPI in MC14.

I think I glanced over Chirs's mention of doing it successfully, but I have had issues trying to get exclusive mode to work with a Musiland, Peachtree Nova, and Eastern electric DAC.

They have some settings but I and other users have toggled/tweaked these to no avail.

hifi

Chris - well done, very much appreciate you working through the Windows 7 setup options for JRMC 14.

Apple Lossless (ALAC). J.River MC14 doesn't play ALAC files natively and so no chance for bit true with JRMC. When ever JRMC reads an ALAC files, he tries to reroute it to your windows system. If you have a ALAC coder installed in your system, then this system coder will be used, if not, there is not play back. But also in case you have an ALAC coder installed, your windows will open the mixer for playback and so no Bit True and no Automatic Sample Rate Change.

This is also an point where you can check the exclusive WASAPI Mode. Whenever the exclusive WASAPI mode is working correct, so 1:1 Bit True and automatic sample rate change, you will see no additional volume path in the windows mixer sound system. So for example if you are using the latest Quicktime under Windows 7 and are setting the output to WASAPI, you will see during plack back an extra volume path in the windows mixer, and there will be no automatic sample rate change and there will no 1:1 Bit True playback. So this “feature” in Quicktime is not working, maybe in the future, but not yet.

There are two possible solutions for that. For Playing Back ALAC 1:1 Bit True with an Windows System, you can use Foobar with the ALAC Plug-In. On typical windows system ALAC is not the typical format for storing audio files, so you can also convert absolutely without loss to FLAC or AIFF or WAV.

WASAPI settings with USB DACs: It is absolutely necessary, that you match the Bit width of the WASAPI setting to your DAC. So for 16 Bit USB DACs, you have to set the Bit width in the DSP studio to 16 Bit (see my above post) and it should work.

Juergen

You need to install the DC_Bass source filter for DirectShow filter use in the MC engine. Then you don't need Quicktime installed.

hifi

I was about to post the same reply. DC-Bass Source can decode ALAC (at least 16/44.1, I have not tried anything else) and the output can be routed through MC's bit perfect audio engine.

I have posted some instructions and a download link at the J. River forum:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=55606.msg377942#msg377942

Hi Chris, Alex and Juergen,
I have been using iTunes with the XP operating system for the past 5 years and ripped my 1,000 CD's at 320ACC, as I felt it was a good compromise for general listening and ipod use etc.

Unfortunately (???) I found Chris's excellent site about 6 months ago and so began my journey into achieving audiophile quality music. I have had so much fun and enjoyment learning about bit perfect, sampling rates, where to purchase high res music etc, etc. What a great source of information you have provied Chris and what a great bunch of people you have attracted to your site, people who freely give of their time and expertise so individuals like me can learn and benefit. You have all restored my faith in human nature.

FYI I purchased a benchmark DAC 1 HDR and a pair of ADAM A7 active monitors and was in the process of buying a MAC mini and reripping my collection to ALAC (up to 500 now) when I read Chris's article on J.River MC. I tested it and felt it to be a significant step up in useability (flexibility) over iTunes so I purchased the software.

I was therefore dismayed to read the comments above by Juergen
that I cannot get bit perfect playback with ALAC and then thankfully read Alex's following thread. I followed the link and installed the filters while making the changes in "Options/File Types" as per your instructions. I then went through your check list to ensure that MC was using Direct Show Filter in conjunction with the DC-Bass Source Filter and not Quicktime. I have also turned off all enharncements and checked "exclusive use" for the Benchmark in Vista.

I am not a technically gifted person but thankfully everything worked! The B&W society of sound 24bit FLAC files are absolutely stunning as are my own CD's in ALAC.

Thanks a lot.

P.S. I ripped all my music in iTunes using ALAC with error correction checked. I then highlighted all the tracks of each album and copied and pasted the album cover from the net into the Artwork box inside 'Get Info", however, only 70% of my cover art is showing in MC but all are available in iTunes? Any ideas why only some album covers are being seen by MC and how I can fix this?

Probably the m4a input component in MC cannot read embedded cover art.

iTunes saves its cover art either in the file tags (i.e. they will be embedded if copy/pasted by hand) or if the images are downloaded by iTunes it places them inside the proprietary database.

I think some third party tools/procedures can export the images from the database to disk files, but I don't have any links to post. You could try a Google search.

MP3tag can mass extract embedded images to folder.jpg files. ( http://www.mp3tag.de/en )

Possibly the "70%" you mentioned was dowloaded automatically by MC, but you could still try MC's built-in cover art downloader. Select the album files and do: right-click > Cover Art > Get From Internet. In there you can select the the best image if more than one is available. The lookup tool is based on the Artist and Album tags, so they need to be correct. The online database doesn't contain cover art for each and every album, but it may help quite a bit. Though, as I said, in your case it is possible that MC already downloaded what it could find.

From my AB listening, the playback with ALAC files (16/44.1) on j River 14 and Foobar 2000 (V1.0) are different.
J River is by all means a very good player, however, Foobar has a better edge, cleaner sound, with higher definition than j river. I find Foobar very easy to listen to without much tweakery to get the sound right, reasonably bullet proof, J river I had to fiddle a fair deal to get the latency right, and it wasn't consistent. JRiver managed to hang a few times, but to its credit recovered OK.
At worst the sound dropped out for 0.2s, and varied according to the file played. Possible cause of interaction with the DAC. Juergen's comment is very interesting with J River decoding ALAC, it would justify the audbile difference between the two players.
I uninstalled J river even though I purchased it (shrug). Am running Win7 Pro 64bit, and set the default player as the built in Realtek card and then selected the DAC Wasapi mode in Foobar. The indexing btw of J River is about 5 times slower than Foobar, so set a time to import all the files, and tell J River to import AAC's :) by default it doesn't.
With a little effort & digging, Foobar doesn't look like a spreadsheet.

The indexing of the tags does't need the time with J.River when importing audio files, compared to Foobar, the “analysing audio” takes this high amount of time. This is doing much more than just analysing the audio level if you want to use the replay gain function. So if you import huge data bases, this can take really very long, that's right.

Foobar and JRiver MC14, both are bit perfect, but they have different ability to play different files formats. For example JR MC14 does play AIFF, absolutely perfect, but Foobar does not. One the other hand, with the ALAC Plug-In Foobar plays ALAC, but JR MC14 does not.

You are right, JR MC14 does not play AAC files natively, but I personally do not care about lossy file formats, even when traveling, I am listening only to lossless files.

I haven't measured the ALAC filter in JR MC14, so at this moment, I am not sure, whether this is Bit True or not. Maybe I will do when I am home again in the next week.

Juergen

Were you using WASAPI in MC14? I feel there are some problems with it, and a few threads over there about this, but overall I find Foobar more cumbersome. You have to download plugins to get ASIO and WASAPI? Why be suprised that AAC is not a default file format? They focus on lossless, and mostly Windows platform codecs. DC_Bass filter is available.

Indexing is fastest with J. River, bar none. If you don't use RG, turn off Analyze, or do it later when you are counting sheep.

This is part of the problem with having a low power master PC that is pulling files off a NAS or similar. Where are your files hosted? I'm guessing the network. You probably have download cover art, analyze audio, etc. enabled on import. It helps when dealing with audio to have a something that can crunch numbers; the Master PC hosting the library should have some nuts. Your clients, make those the featherweights. You can tag your files now over LAN/WAN with Library Server, but for intensive file operations, it's nice to deal directly with files with some power when you have to.

I have AB'd MC14, XXhighend, and Foobar. I hear no difference. No dropouts.

I feel that remotely controlling music playback software is a sadly neglected area of most software, including JRMC. It seems that software developers are stuck in the mode of trying to reproduce a TV experience (i.e., using a remote control) just because PCs have monitors. But when I listen to music, I don't want to have a PC monitor near me (to say nothing of the impracticality of having cables running across the floor to some place near my chair). And a 10 foot interface is fine for video, but I don't want to have a big flatscreen in front of me when I just want to listen to music.

So what DO I want? Well, a few years ago it would have been difficult to come up with a realistic affordable alternative, but today I have an iPhone that has a nice in-built iPod application. Why should I not be able to access my PC-based audio using the same interface? In fact, using foobar2000 and the httpcontrol component together with the right skin, you can get something very close to that. You can sit in your chair and select your music using just the iPhone (and wi-fi) and what you see on the iPhone looks almost exactly like the iPod app. In fact, I'm amazed that this little feature isn't more widely publicised. (I do find the skin a little clunky, but at least part of that - perhaps most of that - is because I don't understand foobar well enough.)

I wish software developers like JRMC would think more about how users can control the music playback remotely. What works for video does not, IMO, work for music.

From a developers point of view it may be "helpful" for you, that we developers face an even bigger problem at creating it, than you the user wanting it (but which is because you want it :-). Remote control for general purpose on a Windows PC is a sheer undoable task. Ok, in the end I managed, but the bought remotes are countless and even includes a 1200 euro special piece (also worthless).

That nice little Foobar gadget hopefully brings the future, and at least I will go that route. But for your information (and to emphasize the difficulties again) : even that (iPhone/iThouch) control means is hacked from iTunes. Say, "stolen". So, it is nothing like being officially there for a Windows PC, but it is proprietary iTunes. And no, I didn't mean Foobar stole anything, but similar to cracking DVD-A ripping (which two years ago wasn't possible), this was cracked too (reverse engineered).

So, just 2c for a hopefully perspective !
Peter

Peter - there are actually two different Foobar remotes.

The one using the iPod Touch "Remote" application and a second (older one) that used HTTP which I think was referred to just now. The HTTP remote is not reverse engineered from anything afaik.

Eloise

Hi Eloise,

I too have a "HTTP" version (TCP/IP server) but I couldn't get it reliably (or as fast as should) working, and out of all it is not a standard solution. So FYI : many solutions exist, and most rely on the (by now very o(l)d) WinLirc protocol, mostly dedicated to serial ports nobody has anymore. So on that matter, we want USB.
... go try it with a fresh start. -> You'll never know what is not working why, because of too many variables. And to keep in mind : I am talking about "programmable" remotes, which allow for e.g. ticking/unticking a random checkbox in, *my* application. So, there is enough around that supports MCE, Winamp and the like, but this is because it was done the other way around : the remote manufacturer just made that working (and compatible with those apps).

Actually it is crazy, and someone should be sued for it.
Peter

Appears Chris touched on all of this (below) above - Chris, have you gotten that 801 Error when trying to browse with PlugPlayer (i.e. just using PP as a remote to control JRMC zones).

JRMC has 3 possible remote solutrions:

XPtunes (free in forum)
RiverMote (iTunes store)
PlugPlayer (iTunes store)

PlugP is DLNA-based and JRMC is working to support this; right now I can't get it to browse.

RiverMote has focus issues; meaning it is increcible on th eiPhone but it breaks things like scrolling on the Master machine when you sit back down with your in-air mouse on the couch etc.

XPTunes allows searching, but it is the most fugly imo.

Last night, daughter and wife at in-laws, I convinced my son to come out bback and look at the stars, start a fire, and listen to music. I turned on my aux amp, started MC via the RiverMote icon, and walked outside. Switched to Outdoor Zone on iPhone, and choose the playlist for Desifinado.

When you have a 3 year old, I have to say this tech makes life easier (when it works ; ), as we all know how much attention span 3.5 year olds have. He even got into rating songs with me and pressing the ratings stars in RiverMote, a feature I really like in case random songs pop up that I have never heard.

I'm hoping that PlugPlayer pans out too; RM is a pretty slick app though, but he is stuck with JRMC not helping him out as a 3rd party developer. There is a thread over there, and the reality is confusing. JRMC has not done an Apple based app in-house; they have serious issues with Apple imo from what I have seen, and it's a shame Melloware took the brunt of their frustration as they did nothing to help a fellow developer out in this situation when all he desired to do was improve his application; boosting both companies sales.

So it goes...

In terms of "hard" remotes, the Gyration in conjunction with Intelliremote is a cost effective solution although J. River sells a remote on their site. I have never played around with the remote settings for IR blasting though.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/8761/jrremote.jpg

hifi

"Chris, have you gotten that 801 Error when trying to browse with PlugPlayer (i.e. just using PP as a remote to control JRMC zones)."

Yes I certainly have received that error. It took me a while to figure it out. the problem was I selected the wrong Media Server in the PlugPlayer setup. If your version of Windows is also running a UPnP server (it likely is) it may appear in the list instead of the JRMC Media Server. Selecting the Windows Media Server will give you the 801 error every time. There should be a media server selectable with the JRMC icon not just one with a Windows icon.

I had to change the port JRMC Media Server was operating on, in order to make this work. Windows and JRMC used the same port by default and Windows won the battle.

Also, make sure you have downloaded the absolute newest version of JRMC from the JRMC forum. It really makes a difference.

Chris,
I swithched from MediMonkey to JRMC. Is there enough sonic difference between Vista and 7 to make that change as well? If so, is 7 Home Premium 32 bit all I would need?

Thanks Russ

Hi Russ - That's a real subjective question :~) I suggest staying with Vista for now as long as you already have it. I have Vista and Windows 7 and will never go back to Vista. That's just me.

Any version of Windows 7 will likely suit your needs. If you want remote desktop for control you'll need Professional or Ultimate.

Peter, I don't pretend that I have the expertise to understand all of your comments, but I do believe there are some other factors to be considered.

As Eloise said, the foobar httpcontrol app is not a rip-off of iTunes or any Apple software in any way. It's just an http server for foobar that allows you to access foobar commands via http. The beauty of this approach is that you can skin the server page that is served up when you browse to it. That means that you can optimise it for, for example, an iPhone screen. The iPod lookalike part is just the skin.

There's no need for a physical connection like USB or something that relies on Winlirc (which IIRC is an infra-red protocol). It's just a matter of browsing to the foobar web server via Wi-Fi on your iPhone.

You mentioned the need to to tick boxes, etc. I'd suggest that there is an alternative route that I wish developers would consider. For controlling remotely (I prefer not to say "remote control" because that tends to make everyone assume it's a reference to hardware) on a small handheld device with a small inbuilt screen (like an iPhone), the interface SHOULD be completely different. If we simply wanted to control the PC, we could use something like the VNC or Remote Desktop apps that are available for the iPhone, but that is also clunky because of the small screen size that has to map to the PC screen.

Personally, I think a nice JRMC app for the iPad would be the perfect solution. I might even spring for one of those things if there was such an app.

My apologies for going a little OT wrt this review of the JRMC, but I think this aspect (how we control our music playing PCs remotely) is sadly overlooked. I raise this in the hope that reviewers of PC media playing software like Chris will be a little more demanding in this area.

Chris,

Where the heck do we change the port? You mean going into Windows and doing this? JRMC doesn't seem to have this option, and their Wiki doesn't mention it.

thanks,
hifi

Okay, so enabling the server did the trick. Didn't have to tweak a port. Choosing Renderer makes the zones show up in PlugPlayer, but it is confusing for a new user that you need to choose Server as well because it seems like it is already running, and I don't want it to server anything; just be controlled by my iPhone. DLNA is incredibly fast with my 122K song library. Color me impressed. Wish I had a way to do ratings though like in RiverMote!

While I don't pretend to write as clearly as could be, I think there are some misunderstandings;

First of all, I wasn't referring to any HTTP protocol/interface, but (I'd hope obviously) to the iPhone interface, which is not the HTTP you refer to. It's just another, and that one *is* reverse engineered (hey, by the community -> visit Doom9 and you'll know what I mean).
Is this important ? I guess not.

There's no need for a physical connection like USB or something that relies on Winlirc (which IIRC is an infra-red protocol).

Maybe - before we both invest more time in working out what would be best for you the user - it is first time to get into these matters somewhat further. I mean, if you refer to an USB physical connection, you maybe don't get the grasp of what we both are talking about. Hahaha. I mean, how can you ever think I am talking about a wired "remote" connecton, no matter I didn't say what connection it was. So, on the same matter I can now think that your HTTP connection is via an UTP cable or something. Of course not (this will be WiFi generally).

You mentioned the need to to tick boxes, etc. I'd suggest that

... if you only were suggesting something !!
So let me try to explain it again, but via another route :

You startup an application of your likings. Take Word, whatever. Now pick a remote to your likings but start simple, before demanding something 100 steps further away from reality. So, get yourself a remote of which you think it can do the job : or more safe, ask a shop which one to have (not that you will get an answer, but it makes clear the problem better). But you know what ? I *tell* you that an MCE remote can do it (it really can). This saves you a month of digging. But now do it ! change that checkbox you picked.

Keep in mind : I am not talking strange things here. You actually should go out to the mall and ask for a remote that can change that checkbox (any checkbox you like). But you won't get an answer because it does not exist right out of the box. And THIS is both your and my problem. It is your prblem because you can't get a remote for my application, and it is my problem because I have no means to create a remote for my application. THERE IS NO STANDARD FOR IT. It wasn't provided.

This all starts with the communication over IR (or RF if you like) via "a" connection to the PC, and this obviously is USB (maybe now you understand my WinLirc story better, because that *is* a standard (created by the community, but it is for a serial port), but it is NOTHING for you the user. Too tedious and vague to setup, and 20 times worse as activating a server like you see coincidentally in the before posts.

The "standard" iTunes uses contains it all, and since this is open now, it should be THE standard.
But now I have to get myself an iPhone because it doesn't work with my Pronto.

Again, I hope it is clear ! (but if not, let's put it to rest)
Peter

PS: In order not to have a disagreement :

but I think this aspect (how we control our music playing PCs remotely) is sadly overlooked.

you keep on being 100% correct on this one, and I only wanted you to know that the manufacturers you refer to have a problem themselves. Partly this is because of (what you very correctly said) the way of interaction you need, while no large screen is (should be) available opposed to video, BUT in the mean time you'll need some control including pictures (coverart) <- which is not what you said, and which makes things way way more complicated than the normal MCE remote which already doesn't work out of the box.
Now, the iPhone remote application contains that (before not openly available). My Philips Pronto plus my own TCP/IP server (WiFi !) contains that too. But are you going to buy a EUR 1200 remote ? come on.

For interest, a bit more detail on my previous post :

For the indexing, I used the same machine to the same library of songs from the same location. The songs are hosted by another PC on the network, so both applications read the same data including cover art, RG (replay gain?) and analyze audio were switched off.
I wasn't surprised that AAC searches are not turned on, it's just that by default action of the software, ACC aren't searched unless you tick the box on import. iTunes does have a vast library of music, and when it comes to availability of songs that are difficult to find, I'd rather put up with lossy formats, than miss out on a vital piece of music altogether.

I do agree with you in that there needs to be a failry strong PC to crunch numbers for importing libraries for the first time, however the limit is not the processor, RAM, its the oldest and weakest link, the spinning hard drive. Throughput of data is the real bottleneck, which is largely overcome by SSD, but at considerable cost if you store libraries on SSD. Playing is no problem for a spinning drive, the data stream is fine have no trouble with it, but getting 200GB+ of data on there in the first place over the network is more than overnight.

Also backing up that data presents its own drama. For mass copying, I use Windows Robocopy (or the GUI RichCopy), then regular backups with Norton Ghost or Acronis, considering GFI backup. This should be in another thread though.

Windows-based solutions (eg, Windows 7 + JRMC) and Mac OS solutions (eg, iTunes + Amarra/PV)? Given all the reports of how "crazy s***" makes a difference (adding RAM, SSD, certain USB ports, etc), it seems like someone must have made this comparison . . .

Told you Chris in many Posts why I feel JRMC is a great player for Audiophiles. Now if they can only release a Kernel streaming plug in since I still use my windows xp laptop with the M2tech H-i-Face. ASIO will not work so I am now using MM with Kernel streaming in. I prefer to use JRMC yet they aren't releasing a proper plugin.

Hi Lizard King

ASIO: What is wrong with the M2tech ASIO driver, what isn't working correctely?

KS: You can install ASIO4ALL and have a ASIO to KS wrapper, working for JRMC.

Juergen

Juregen:

ASIO4all is just a warpper and does NOT sound as good as the full ASIO. For some reason, the Hi-Face software will not work with ASIO on either JRMC or MM. However, Kernel Streaming plugin works for MM yet there is no KS plugin for JRMC. I find that the KS plugin with MM gives me the best sounbd period yet I miss some of JRMC functionality.

You are right, ASIO4ALL does sound good, but not perfect.

But why is the ASIO not working for you, any sound or no music at all?

So in JRMC in Autput Mode: ASIO
In Output Settings chose the right device
And disable "use large hardware buffer" (this is my recommentation).

If still now sound, try different channel offsets (I never tried this, but maybe for your soundcard).

Good Luck
Juergen

I believe Lizard King has been one of the greatest advocate for JRMC on this website and thus his bias for JRMC is natural and obvious. But I find it curious that JRMC is now on the CASH List and Media Monkey is off, especially given the opinion of some that with Kernel Streaming, Media Monkey has never sounded better, and it seems that sonically Lizard King prefers Media Monkey to JRMC.

Audiozorro

Ok, under Windows XP, without a working ASIO driver from the hardware manufacturer, JRMC can't show his performance, but beginning with Windows Vista and finaly with Windows 7 (both the exclusive WASAPI mode) JRMC 14, with the play from RAM feature enabled, gives sonically an immense boost, you have to try it.

On XP, Kernel Streaming does sound better, true, but sometimes a little bit too picky, when other programs need some CPU load. ASIO is not exactely as good, but more tolerant, when other programs need some CPU load. But both modes are much better than Wave Out or Direct Sound Out.

But you should realy try JRMC 14, with playing RAM enabled, under Windows 7 via exclusive WASAPI!

Juergen

I guess I will have to try JRMC someday. The reason that I haven't to date is that I have a bias against mixing audio and video and JRMC seems to be the ultimate media software for audio, video, photos, etc. I may be wrong but I just think that a developer that concentrates on only audio has an advantage than one trying to do it all. Perhaps it's time for me to put my prejudice aside, try it and listen. Even if I feel JRMC isn't better than my preferred audio player, I do have a place for it in my separate home theater setup that may bring the connected computers to new levels.

I only have XP and Vista right now, so which version of Win 7 do you feel is best for JRMC?

Hi Audiozorro

Also for me, I am only interested in the audio features of JRMC, so I deselct all video, pictures, etc. features and select only the 8 main audio format, that I have on my computer.

On XP, JRMC was good and if you had some ASIO drivers for your hardware, I was really good and I used it via ASIO with great success, together with some other programs (MM, Foobar, WinAmp).

But with Vista and with Windows 7, the exclusive WASAPI made a big difference, so from that on, I am using only JRMC14 (and Foobar for reference comparison).

For testing I have also MM, iTunes, Winamp, etc. on my Vista and on my Windows 7 partition, but without exclusive WASAPI, they have no chance.

Exclusive WASAPI has the transparency of the Kernel Steamin of the XP ages, but togehter with the elasticity of the ASIO dirvers.

I have only Windows 7 Premium Home 32, so I can't say anything on the other versions.

Juergen

PS: I do not want to say anything bad concerning other programs, exept my post about measurements, but under Windows 7, JRMC14 flys.

I have an issue with this option in MC14:
"Output set to 24 Bit in the output format field of the DSP studio"

If I use WASAPI, exclusive Mode and Output set to 24 Bit in the output format field of the DSP studio:
playing a 16/44.1 file, results in an extremly unpleasant, distorted noise.
playing a 24/96 file works.

If I use WASAPI, exclusive Mode and Output set to "AS SOURCE" in the output format field of the DSP studio:
no problems, no matter what resolution.

If I use ASIO and Output set to 24 Bit in the output format field of the DSP studio:
no problems, no matter what resolution.

I have also no problem with foobar2000, WASAPI and output data format = 24bit

I am using: Win7. Lynx AES16, nevest drivers. Weiss DAC2

TIA for any help or explanation
Urs

Urs

I haven't the Lynx AES16 here with me to verify your behaviour, but if "as source" works for you this should be fine. So you only should check, if the the exclusive WASAPI mode is really working, so the automatic sample rate change should work and ther should no new windos mixer input with JRiver open, when you play back with JRiver.

How is the sound difference with your Lynx Card between ASIO and WASAPI?

Also you can contact Jim Hillegass from JRiver with your "problem".

Or maybe Chris can chime in, because he should have the same OS and SoundCard.

Juergen

Hi Jürgen

I guess you pointed me to something... though I am not quite sure how to interprete it.

I would try to resolve this WASAPI stuff somehow, so for the time being I am not talking about ASIO.

According to what Chris suggested, I did this:
...set a built-in or onboard audio device as the default rather than my Lynx card...

so my default onboard audio device is: Lynx AES16 Play 07+08
my really used audio device is: Lynx AES16 Speaker (standard format 24/48, as in the article)

In foobar, playing a song and clicking on the speaker symbol in the taskbar shows:
both devices
the device "Lynx AES16 Speaker" has the the application "foobar2000" assigned
the device "Lynx AES16 Play 07+08" has the the application "Systemsounds" assigned
...seems reasonable to me.

and now the same for MC14 ("exclusive" access is ticked)
playing a song and clicking on the speaker symbol in the taskbar shows:
both devices
the device "Lynx AES16 Speaker" has the the application "JRMC 14" assigned
the device "Lynx AES16 Play 07+08" has the the application "Systemsounds" AND the application "JRMC 14" assigned
...not what I expected, a bit confusing.

Anyway, thanks very much for your previous answer.
Urs

Hi Urs - The 24-bit setting is optional and mainly good for USB DACs. The Lynx card doesn't require any setting other tan "Same As Source." It's a 32 bit card and works perfect with WASAPI. Let me know if you have issues.

Urs

Yes the behavior of JRMC is not right. So I would suggest to check with Chris or with Jim (JRiver) this issue, it looks like the mapping of the output channels is not exclusive in JRiver WASAPI.

Juergen

A couple of users have reported that the 141 driver publicly available for the hiFace is not working with ASIO, but that the previous version of the driver does work. Here's the thread on our forum:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=56403.msg383734#msg383734

I posted in that thread that the 141 driver would not produce sound with WASAPI. I had no problem at all with ASIO4ALL or DirectShow. Now that I have gone back to the earlier driver it all works perfectly. One thing I have noticed and I don't know if it has anything to do with anything but people running Win7 seemed to have the 141 driver work for them and mostly Vista users have the problem. Nothing scientific but just a trend I have noticed.

Chuck

I gave up on JRM because I did not like the way it sounded using ASIO4ALL. Foobar is far superior in kernel streaming. I was really excited when HiFace came out with 1.03 driver for Vista using WASAPI. The reason being is that I really like the layout in JMR. The problem I am having is that WASAPI will not work in Exclusive mode. I set everything up the way Chris outline in his report on JMR. When click the exclusive mode off under output mode the music plays, but the windows volume control remains active. In contrast WASAPI works great in foobar2000 and widows volume is automatic disable. Dose anybody knows why WASAPI will not work in exclusive mode with HiFace in JMR ? Thanks

Alex any suggestions on how to enable m4p playback in MC 14? i'M ABOUT WONKY trying out various configs in XP PRO sp3.

Is it true ALAC (m4a) playback even with DC base filter-age involved, won't allow for bit perfect playback using JR MC 14?

on another note Chris covered...

Although it's a minor notion to those involved in formulating and writing code for these media players I feel some considerations need be addressed for accessibility issues a user may be enduring, namely, low vision or total loss of vision.

I've noticed routinely that high function screen readers don't operate well with several of these players. MC 12 - MC 14; Itunes, WMP, etc.

the media players afficinados point to the accessibility software and the AS people point back at the way the GUI's are written, just as some wweb pages which don't have the proper tags inserted. As the folks who endure such matters or needs for the use of AS and I am one, does it amount to a great deal of added effort to imbed text or what have you to allow for these screen reading apps to integrate better with these MP's?

I know it's a smaller section of the public at large who find themselves in this category, yet I wonder why such things aren't addressed in the initial build of the player software?

As time passes, more and more of the 'Baby boomer' generation are going to become more hard of seeing and the need for better coding of these media playing apps seems in order... and it's also a thought that to do so would be a far more consumer friendly position further enabling ALL to utilize their player vs some other less flexible one.... just a thought.

REMOTE CONTROL OPERATION
From such a perspective, and as to the remote control use of JR MC or any other player, the only erstwhile option for myself which suffices is by 'remote desktop'. I use currently an Optiplex 760 & NAS storage drive via ether net for file access. output is via MA Delta 24/192 pci to a Bel Canto DAC3 over a Stereovox xv2 coax cable, and then into the balance of the stereo system.

ONLY the 17 in WS laptop using Vista enables me sufficient visual acuity to access all the files. Normal handheld remotes simply do not fit the bill... and it's free.... well nearly. there's that laptop cost I suppose.

Of particular interest to me here would be the subjective account of the desparity between OS audio performance, to wit, XP Pro vs Win 7, with all else being on par, of course.

additionally, the note above on Win 7 not allowing for remote desktop functionality. That would nix the deal outright for myself.

My then, next addition is to exchange out the M Audio card for the Lynx. Consequently, knowing now the degree of advantage in upgrading or not to antoher OS will come in handy.

Thanks for all the input and as well for the article. Hopefully some folowing up to address some of these post's querries will be in place soon.

MC15 beta has been released for public testing and a new Kernel Streaming output mode is included. It works fine for me on XP.

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=56718.0

blindjim,

Alex any suggestions on how to enable m4p playback in MC 14?

m4p from iTunes store? If the files are DRM protected you can only try to play them through the QuickTime engine. MC uses it by default for m4p files if QuickTime is installed. I have seen a problem report regarding m4p playback, but I don't know if that was an isolated case or if Apple has changed something in the DRM system.

Is it true ALAC (m4a) playback even with DC base filter-age involved, won't allow for bit perfect playback using JR MC 14?

I have confirmed that ALAC decoding through the DC-Bass Source filter is bit perfect. There are several ways to verify that. Perhaps the easiest way is to set MC's output to Disk Writer and play a Wave file and an ALAC encoded version of the same file. For instance the Binary Comparator component for foobar2000 can compare the output files and verify that the audio contents are identical. (Binary Comparator: http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_bitcompare )

He there,

I just had an issue with my dCS stack taking 5s to relock on signal when the BelCanto usb link was flushed using MC (at manual track change, or when a new sample rate was required).

Anyway, in 3 days, the guys at MC have included a new feature to play leading silence in these cases, to allow for external hardware synchronization. No longer a bit of music lost !

I think there are pretty serious about their customer needs.
Hail to them.

"I think there are pretty serious about their customer needs."

Agreed Elprior.

Without having Quicktime installed prior to an install of JR MC would then the need for DC base Source become a prerequisite installed component for any ALAC playback?

Is there any version of ITunes which could cause negative issues when installing the latest ed. Of JR MC?

I’M USING 7.7.ETC.

Ks PROBS WITH MC 15.08

I got a M2 Tech Hiface 192 on loan & downloaded MC 15... using KS as output MC (?), or Windows XP Pro sp 3, hangs when file tuypes being played change from one to another... FLAC>M4A>FLAC>M4P> M4A> ETC…. Sometimes even going from one FLAC to another! Sometimes with playing the very first file!

Under AAC I've added DC base as a filter … all else is set to MC 15 DEFAULTS.

It’s set to play silence too.
DSP is set to Source # ch… Source Bit depth.. no resampling.

How can these stalling/crashing incidents be over come without reverting to Direct Sound as the output? Ticking some other items elsewhere?

I’m a long time user and advocate for Chris & The Computer Audiophile, and JR MC and overall, both have improved my experience immensely using a personal confuser for music playback… so do bare that in mind please and don’t see my posts as negative… my experience is merely my own experience. Most often its quite a good one… but as with life, sometimes things happen. Mostly too I think out of pure ignorance. If ya don’t know, then ya just don’t know.

I’m certain now I’ll be acquiring a Lynx AES16 card soon… though I’m unsure of the diffs from the PCI to the PCI Express other than the size of the slot aren’t the same.

Thanks lots.

Blindjim,
Try this thread on our forum:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=56403.0

Build 141 of the Hi-face firmware had a problem. Build 140 worked.

Thank you Chris for your great article on J River 14,I just purchased an Asus xonar essence stx,so I thought I'd give J River 14 a try with the new card. Windows 7 ultimate 64 & J River 14 wasapi output via coaxial to my Xindak Dac 8 sound amazing !!! Time to say good bye to my cd player.

Jason Prince

Great to hear Jason!

I would NOT purchase from this company with a ten foot pole.

For one they try and re-sell their 'loyal' users whenever they need more money. The drill is always the same: bump the version number, end support for the previous version, and charge again.

MediaMonkey is more stable, there is a single lifetime charge, that includes new versions. With my EMU 0404 USB and the downloadable ASIO V0.67 SSE2 plugin, which communicates with EMUs ASIO driver to automatically change bitrates and frequency. Mostly flawless to 192KHz/24bit. Also provide iphone, etc, integration which J. River does NOT.

My personal experience is that J. River has banned over 100 users, and too quickly deletes posts, and changes others, without attribution, in an effort to pretend its product is the best. They have stated they are against both education and free expression. They view open source as a 'curse word', although they are quick to use the capabilities of any open source product as part of their own.

I was able to purchase a Xeon X3440, four core, 8 thread, ECC, machine by not falling into the trap of re-purchasing each release of J. River.

iq100
the best way to delete an idea is to post one of your own.

charging customers for new versions of software? Outrageous! It'll never catch on as a business model!

JRMC desperately needs a decent iPhone app - one that handles the actual library rather than just playlists. Other than that I find it to be a most flexible and agreeable all-rounder.

It seems some of your post is accurate, IMHO, in that JR MC version after version arrives with previous itterations going fallow thereafter in terms of support.. Which is more user oriented than actual designer oriented.so far as I know.

Or so I’ve personally seen these past few years at least FROM jr mc.

Adding support for WASAPI & Kernal Streaming shouldn’t constitute a fresh release, and I did see where many other items were either tweaked or added for the newer now iteration of MC 15. yet one is on the way.

True…. Continued releases are ongoing to be sure. I just bought the MC 14.155 LAST MONTH AS AN UPDATE FROM MC 12…. AND now MC 15 is in Beta and I assume soon to be ‘readied enough’ for sale….

MC 15.08 beta sure needs attention though as it’s crashes have caused me to reload my OS & settings all over again. Such have been the severity and frequency of them, the damage apparently was too wide spread for the system to remain stable. I’ll not fault J River there however for it was a precautionary Beta release… and AYOR sort of thing.

That one is on me… I’LL NOT REPEAT THAT MISTAKE.

The attraction for me is purely it’s audio. Of many MPs, JR MC sounds the best to me, with the exception of using the M2 Tech HiFace 192 & Foobar 101 with lossless files..

I found that combo quite superior… and lots more stable… with far fewer instances of interrupted playback. Far fewer.

The current norm for most any media player support however seems to be strickly ‘catch as catch can’ regardless it’s label. That alone seems fine enough for those MPs which are free.

Paid for versions of ANY media player, should have a different business ethic indeed when it comes to end user support. Surely by use of forums, but not expressly, and certainly not as the end users ONLY avenue for assistance.

Across the board however… regardless the lable on the media player these days, free or paid for MP versions provide little else routinely. Albeit such is the widespread case, it is impersonal, sketchy, and untimely at best with which the buyer has for resolution acquisition.

It’s more than regrettable.

A truly classy operation ought to be able to offer more… even if it’s a paid for by event circumstance. With remote desktop intervention such things should be simple enough and timely a thing to do as well. This could even be sub contracted out as Gateway & others do with their main support currently.

I know I’d be willing to pay a reasonable fee for configuration help but not for bug fixes. Instability issues should be solely the province of the seller. Updates should remedy such issues alone, and thereafter ONLY be for newer hardware compatibility, or a newer and BETTER pathway for performance and stable operation or newer OS releases.

I tire of buying and rebuying players personally as should anyone. So unless I change my OS or hardware, and can configure things to be compatible and stable…. I’ll simply pass on newer iterations… of ANY SOFT PLAYER if possible.

….but until I am frustrated beyond reason by JR MC, which might not be far off, or find another player of greater quality and ease of operation… I’ll hang in for a bit more with JR MC AND PAY CLOSER ATTENTION to the business manner it subscribes to.

Very powerful software will fuel many questions and issues, by it’s very nature. Timely and appropriate fixes should then be available for those that buy such applications.

Not everyone is a computer geek, nor should they need to be… especially when they are paying for it.

"Across the board however… regardless the lable on the media player these days, free or paid for MP versions provide little else routinely".

Two of the media players I use, cMP/cPlay and XXHighEnd routinely provide regular updates, improvements and support for no additional cost.

"...cMP/cPlay and XXHighEnd routinely provide regular updates, improvements and support for no additional cost."

Many others do too…. but to what degree? In what fashion? How timely?

I guess then, that “cMP/cPlay and XXHighEnd” do have immediate contact numbers or quick email replies, right? And that they are the power houses Itunes, WMP, & J River are, playing all file types video and audio with high quality?

Personally, I’ve never even heard of them, but would like to if the aforementioned is true.

Sorry but you took my thoughts herein a bit out of context… though perhaps I should have added, The major/popular media players and some sort of listing of them as well for example:

Windows Media Player
Winamp
Foobar 2K
iTunes (without owning Mac hardware too)
Real Player Free ver.
VLC
Napster free ver
Napster … paid for ver did have a direct contact for an initial brief period after purchasing.
ZOOM
Cyberlink OEM
Cyberlink paid for allows for emails but the language barrier and turn around times are ridiculous.
Ahead (nero) software if a current ver eventually will get back to you and does have a ph number if you feel like calling Germany very late at night.
1 Click DVD Copy (if not paid for annually)
DVD X copy… went belly up

All of these have some online WIKI, or forums natch… but usually no ph#, or timely email contact & return facility the end user may have at their disposal for seeking answers quickly… say 24-48 hrs… in general.

To iTunes credit I will say they did enable me a couple years ago to recover about 50% or so of protected files that were destroyed following a lightening strike… about $1100 worth of tracks at $0.99 @. I lost about 2400 – 2600 files roughly. That followed about 3 weeks of emails back and forth and being outright told no way on the phone as I didn’t have an Ipod or Mac hardware.

All I’m saying is if people pay for a thing…. The relationship between them and the ‘thing’s maker’ should not be as dark and dicey a prospect as they are currently. Another inroad for user issues should be made more accessible to them…. Amongst a couple other thoughts I had written here, perhaps.

Folks making these soft-appliances are smart enough to figure this out if they choose and formulate a viable service/support arm for their product. Such a position too would elevate them to greater popularity and increase their cash flow.

I’ve thought a few times I’d like to be able to send along my box to have it configured properly and it then be fully compliant in all aspects of the SWs abilities…. But remote desktopping or likewise SW would forego such an event… were that aspect in force from the SW maker’s support arm or it’s supportive sub contractor.

@ blindjim

Much of what you say is true, I'm sad to report that J. River principal is usually quite undiplomatic. He tries to be pragmatic in the forums, but you can quickly get pegged as a trouble maker, even if you are smart, witty, polite, and genuinely trying to troubleshoot. I removed myself from their forum (w/ 2000+ posts) when he deleted a post I made after working all night to trouble shoot why my 5TB collection was hard deleted from disk (only files in JRMC library were deleted). When it started to look really bad, like JRMC MC14 might have had a direct hand in it, he locked the thread or deleted it entirely. I personally made suggestions to JR which became implemented in their software (e.g. tabs) only to have my various problems deemed too common ("you always have problems"). Could it be I was simply diligent about bug-reporting. Oh the irony! I hate to air dirty laundry but it is just such a shame. You set it up to depend on the user base to move the product forward, and when they report bugs you drive them away, shaming them. What will happen, is one user will have some rare bug, the exception to the rule, and JR will simply have to ignore you because it is so rare. My beef with MC is its lack of error correction; crashing if yo uhave a bad video file etc. It has NEVER been able to kill itself and often locks up if some glitch is encountered with a file type; this has occurred since MC12 on all OS types. In some ways MC tries to do too much, so for many simply disabling many features and file types might be an idea. I was personally insulted by JR principal via email, yet I still use it. That's a testament to how good it is. Progressive features like Library Server and Zones, not to mention the audiophile feature-set that is creeping in. Don't expect any hand-holding over at JRMC although there are many helpful users like Alex B and Glynor, whose knowledge combined probably surpasses that of the entire forum user base.

ASIO V0.67 SSE2 plugin, which communicates with EMUs ASIO driver

This is impressive. Maybe MM is worth another look even though I no longer use EMU gear. Hard for me to live w/o Zones and LS though, not to mention my custom 1920x1080 track iinfo screen that pulls all kinds of stuff from Last.FM & AMG along with lyrics, cover art, band bio, etc.

The Computer Audiophile website offers a wealth of information and is bound to attract computer audio users of all levels. I do not want to appear snobbish or degrading but here you may find comments similar to what you may hear in the larger world of audiophiles, such as Bose speakers are mid-fi and not high-fi. But to the larger public into audio, Bose products are at the top of the list, they may be expensive but they sound great.

Here at CA you will hear similar things like recommendations for iTunes on Mac but not on a Windows PC, or even iTunes on a Mac does not sound excellent without Pure Music or Amarra. You will find a preference for lossless audio files and high rez files. You will also find a preference for external DACs as opposed to internal soundcards. And you may find some readers that have a preference for dedicated music servers as opposed to any general purpose computer that is used for many things besides just audio, even if that just includes audio and video.

I believe that hifitubes brings up a good point regarding the audiophile feature-set that is creeping in J.River Media Center. I seem to recall that when Chris first reviewed JRMC awhile back he wasn’t impressed and discussed problems playing high rez files. How things have changed and we now find JRMC on the CASH List, though there seems to be no set criteria for how a product gets or remains on the list or whether it has to be significantly better than similar products.

Of the media players you cite, in my audiophile circle of friends only Foobar 2K, iTunes and JRMC would qualify as audiophile players. The public at large that is into computer audio is much more interested in any free player that can play lossy compressed audio files such as MP3s. Thus the audio products that I have recommended in the past like Wavelab, Pure Vinyl, cMP/cPlay or XXHighEnd will never be on any major/popular media player list outside of the audiophile community. And the fact you never heard of some of these is not uncommon. I never heard of JRMC until I started participating here at CA and other audio websites. I just like to keep my audio and home theater systems separate and I feel that any media player hardware and software that has to accommodate both audio and video has compromises that for me are fine for my home theater system but not for my audio reference system. And like many other folks into audio and music I have several audio systems that I enjoy, including computer audio systems from the lowly iPod and iPhone to custom built or DIY music servers.

Sorry to hear about your troubles with losing 2400-2600 audio files. I am a big believer in the physical redundancy of audio CDs and hard drive backups, so I generally buy new or used CDs and just rip them.

I’ve no real answer save for the supposition of extended & more indepth service which might garner a bunch of laughs or dismissive frowns. Though it’s all to true things could well be improved upon via the research and info gained thru these support episodes, which could lead to streamlining MC so as to perform less eratically, crash less, and provide more accurate reports to the why of it all… and with the occasion for another revenue stream to boot.

The atmosphere for such things to materialize is in a black hole presently. Probably driven deeper into it by concerns for loss of intellectual properties or proprietary design features and code violations or vilators.

Only when using Direct Sound output do I NOT encounter any anomolies. Otherwise MC 15.08 beta has quite a few flaws purely in it’s audio playback on each of my 3 pcs. 2 running xp pro, 1 using Vista. So I’d agree from ver 12 to 14 issues do indeed arise which have no real explanation when I try to achieve bit true output which it proportedly produces.

Every pc using Windows here can’t be faulty and they aren’t. Only MC 14 & the new beta ver are symptomatic issue ridden or prone. It is the common denominator after all.

My exp with the JR MC support forum has been lackluster, though not from my efforts in posting there and I truly wish it were otherwise due to it’s hook on performance alone.... when it does perform it’s fine. In fact I’d say it bests near all other comers. Depending on the output device and methodology in place.

Perhaps it’s time for JR TO SPLIT UP MC into more dedicated scenarios. An audio purist mode and one for the HT crowd. That’d limit the fall out for sure I believe.

Maybe even level associated players… such as MC Pro; MC Dedicated; MC Multi, MC Mobile; etc. designed for personal skill levels of the end user or practices. Or immediately aimed directly at specific file type playback environments.

Following receipt of my next audio output device I’ll reassess soft players at large. In the interim, I’ll take your note on disabling the features I prefer to use other products with anyhow… and that’s a bit of a shame too.

As my investment into HDD playback increases I must reduce the interaction effort, and time I can & will devote to adequately configuring a media player.

It’s simply to much of a hassle. It becomes frustrating and in that event, I’ll not use it… which ever one it is of course.

The feeling of frustration I know all too well, and were I able, I’d haunt those forums and help out as much as I could as I’m retired with only now and then spurious activity away… and there’s the laptop then too.

I pray things move into a more positive direction for JR MC as I’m certain they’re doing their best…. Everyone else is too….. the trick is to improve our best, somehow at some point. That comes from revisiting previous notions with new eyes, and thinking well outside the current box, or both.

I think your option is very under the influence !

Chris, I built your CAPS system with the Asus Slim HD1.3 and Broadcom decoder cards. I find that on higher resolution files -- 96/24 and up -- I get stuttering or rebuffering issues. I have increased the pre-buffer to 10 seconds and selected the option for playing from memory (although I don't know if that is hard on the solid state drive). No improvement there. Thoughts?

By the way, I can't match the video output format to that of my 1080i TV monitor -- Windows 7 seems to avoid giving many 60Hz refresh choices, so the closest for me to see the whole desktop on my TV has a 30Hz refresh rate, which does cause some fluttering. Have others found the Broadcom card to be working well and am I missing an obvious setup provision within the card to improve my video output?

Thanks. JCR

First post, Hi peeps.
I was just wondering about certain details of the multi zone function.
Say if i had two usb dac connected to the pc, one with max usb sample rate at 24bit 96khz and another at 24bit 192khz. If I was to simultaineously play a single 24bit 192khz file across both zones, what exactly would happen? Thanks.

They are completely unique software zones; it will work fine since you are pushing the audio to separate hardware.

Hi JCR - I originally had stuttering issues with the CAPS system as well. Now I can play anything up to 24/192 without any issues. One thing I did was disable a bunch of services so they didn't startup and use system resources. Here is a list of my Started services currently. I've installed some additional stuff for testing. If your CAPS doesn't have a specific service then don't worry about it.

Name Status
Application Experience Started
Base Filtering Engine Started
Certificate Propagation Started
COM+ Event System Started
Cryptographic Services Started
DCOM Server Process Launcher Started
Desktop Window Manager Session Manager Started
DHCP Client Started
Diagnostic Policy Service Started
Diagnostic Service Host Started
Distributed Link Tracking Client Started
DNS Client Started
Function Discovery Provider Host Started
Function Discovery Resource Publication Started
Group Policy Client Started
HomeGroup Provider Started
IKE and AuthIP IPsec Keying Modules Started
IP Helper Started
IPsec Policy Agent Started
Network Connections Started
Network List Service Started
Network Location Awareness Started
Network Store Interface Service Started
Offline Files Started
Plug and Play Started
Power Started
Program Compatibility Assistant Service Started
Remote Desktop Configuration Started
Remote Desktop Services Started
Remote Desktop Services UserMode Port Redirector Started
Remote Procedure Call (RPC) Started
RPC Endpoint Mapper Started
Security Accounts Manager Started
Server Started
Shell Hardware Detection Started
Software Protection Started
SPP Notification Service Started
SSDP Discovery Started
Superfetch Started
System Event Notification Service Started
Task Scheduler Started
TCP/IP NetBIOS Helper Started
Themes Started
UPnP Device Host Started
User Profile Service Started
Windows Audio Started
Windows Audio Endpoint Builder Started
Windows Defender Started
Windows Driver Foundation - User-mode Driver Framework Started
Windows Event Log Started
Windows Firewall Started
Windows Management Instrumentation Started
Windows Media Player Network Sharing Service Started
Windows Time Started
Workstation Started

That's quite a list to check out, Chris. A few followup questions.

Will disabling any of those services affect security of the computer?

The two programs I leave running in the background are Logmein and Squeezecenter. Will disabling any of the services cause these programs not to work?

Related, might the services for either of those programs running in the background contribute to the problem? Thanks. JCR

Hi JCR - Disabling some of the services will certainly reduce the security of the computer. Since my CAPS is only a music server this isn't a big compromise. Disabling services can stop everything from working including Logmein and Squeezecenter. It's good and bad.

The services for LMI or SC will contribute to overall system resource usage. Before I turned off some services on my CAPS remote controlling the server with Remote Desktop caused stuttering.

If you look at the Task Manager what is the Processor utilization at and how about Memory utilization? Just click on the Performance tab for now.

Also, Logmein is a less than ideal solution for a music server.

Chris, my CAPS shows 58 processes running, with CPU usage at 40% and physical memory at 51%. Performance shows CPU fluctuating between 40-50% and memory is at 1.02Gb. The big memory hog under processes is Squeezebox at 115,740K, as compared to 43,880K for JRMC.

By the way, I'm accessing the CAPS computer to check this information through Logmein. Having it on the CAPS computer in my setup actually works well because the video output is just my HDTV and by accessing remotely, I don't have to turn on the big screen just to look up the info. I do have the CAPS computer connected to the internet through the LAN port to access internet radio (sometimes, that's just the thing to have in the background).

Of course, I've been listening while typing to the Eagles Hotel California at 24/192 from the DVD-Audio rip and the Rachmaninoff Symphonic Dances at 24/176.4 (nice to see that reassuring sampling rate show up on my Bel Canto Dac3.3's front panel) from the HRx, and there's perfect playback with both now. Go figure.

Separately, I have problems with my Rivermote remote software for JRMC. Often, once my iTouch or iPad go to sleep on their screens, I get "Server Error -- could not connect to server. Check host port 192.168.1.117 and port 6002 are correct in the main Settings application."

They are correct.

netstat shows port 6002 is listening.

Alternatively, the application starts up and stops with "Initializing Please Wait..." in the upper left corner of the Now Playing page.

A third goodie is the "Server Error -- Server did not authenticate this session."

I can always solve by restarting the Rivermote application on the CAPS computer. That, however, is very inconvenient. The authentication error usually is fixed by pressing play a few times. In addition, about half the time, the Playlist won't update unless I exit the application and re-enter it. Have you had this problem and how did you fix it? I have the 1.6 version on my iTouch and iPad and the latest 1.5.x.x series software from Rivermote on the CAPS computer.

I've hard rebooted the iTouch and iPad, but that doesn't solve the problem either. Thoughts? JCR

Try creating a new test library, which is simple, and import one folder of audio files. Then try again.

You may have too many Smartlist/Playlist files being loaded, possibly without your knowledge if JRMC has imported m3u etc.

How many files to you have under your very topmost Smartlists section?

You can also try tweaking the cover art quality but it's probably an overload situation related to file count in SL.

He Chris,

not sure I am allowed to post this kind of information here, so please, feel free to remove it, if this is not convenient.

I have received this email from JRiver :

> Please take a few minutes to introduce J. River Media Center to someone you
> know or to those on a forum you visit. Here's a $10 coupon you can e-mail
> to a friend, or post on a forum:
>
> mc430 (It's good for $10 off on a NEW PURCHASE until April 30.)
>
> Download MC15 first:
> http://files.jriver.com/mediacenter/MediaCenter150028.exe
>
> Then purchase from MC's Help menu. Enter the mc430 coupon when you
> purchase to receive $10 off on a new purchase of MC15 (not an upgrade).
>
> To inspire your friends, here are a couple of great recent reviews of MC:
> http://wiki.jrmediacenter.com/index.php/Reviews

Elp

PS : I am not related to JRiver business.

No worries :~)

In the Rivermote iTouch settings you can turn the sleep off. If I uderstand your question, that should do it.

The email starts by saying this has been the best month so far for sales of J River Media Center. I wonder why that could be????? Could it be a certain article on a certain website written by a certain audiophile????? One wonders. ;-)

I just got my registered copy working with a Hiface using kernel streaming and OMG where have you been all my life!!! Kid A by Radiohead has been re-re-discovered. Good times. :-D

Andy

First of all, I'd like to thank the reviewer and the community for recommending JRiver. Based on your recommendation, I've purchased and installed JRiver 15. I've been having a lot of fun with the application. However, I'm having problems with Rivermote since I purchased and installed JRiver 15: Rivermote no longer works on my iPod Touch!

Whehever I start Rivermote (to start JRiver 15), I receive a message saying "JRiver MediaCenter is not installed on this computer. Please install it first!". However, when I start JRiver and then click on Rivermote.exe, I receive the following message: "Jriver Media Center is already started. Please close it and try again!"

In sum, Rivermote does not work in version 15 of JRiver. It used to work in the free trial (JRiver 14) that I installed. Any suggestions? Does this require a Rivermote driver update?

I use Windows 7, 64 bit.

Thanks a bunch!