USB Cables

Hello,

I use the Ridge Street Poiema!!! and it is the best I have ever heard hands down! I had a Belkin Gold and since the Poiema has been in my system, there is so way I will go back. I may upgrade to the Ridge Street Alethias! cable. I tried the Belkin gold on a Bel canto 3 and it was fair, the highs were not too good.

I hope this helps?

Thanks Lizard_Ling. Can you elaborate on what the differences between the cables were?

The Ridge Street Poiema!!! makes the system sound like Music! There is no fatigue, I can listen for hours with so much fun.

What I really like is that I can listen from other rooms and still enjoy the SQ.

The basic USB cables sound 2D while the Poiema!!! gives you air and 3d, bass.

In short, the SQ is no longer Hi-Fi, it is now MUSIC!

I hope this helps?

I use a USB cable from Revelation Audio Labs to connect a Macbook Pro to my AR DAC7, the cable is a bit expensive but in line with the price of any decent audio cable. The improvement over a standard USB cable is impressive in my system (Threshold T2, Threshold T50, Wilson Audio Duette, BCD signal cables and Crystalspeak reference cables).
Andrea

I've been discussing computer audio and 'audiophile' USB cables with a cable manufacturer I know who's interested in making some of these. Chris, or anyone else -- what would be considered to be the best type of connector and where is a resource for solder-type connectors?

I'm sorry but it is absolutely and totally scientifically impossible to hear any differences between USB cables. It really is. What you are showing is how easily we and our ears are fooled. So many experiments have been done and published that show how flawed we are and how easily we all make mistakes and yet audiophiles seem undeterred.

It's extremely difficult to get the best possible sound quality, but easier if we rule out things that science says can't happen before we start. Hi fi systems have a multitude of shortcomings, many of which are discussed on CA and these are what I believe we need to concentrate on if you want a better sounding system. In the main noughts and ones travel well and don't get into trouble until we try to convert them to analogue.

Ash

Thank you, Ash. I was just too weary to say it one more time. I'm currently embroiled in a debate with an Englishman named Marco, whom you may know, over why there is nothing special about sound that precludes us from accurately testing what can and cannot be heard (sound...heard...I know...it boggles the mind). He seems to be comforted by believing that I am a black and white objectivist type. Given that I spent my career in strategic marketing making prestige out of whole cloth (and sound testing methodologies) I couldn't let him off that easy. But I think I'm done with the fellow now...

Tim

Tim
I think I could present a compelling case for establishing Marco as a Black and White Subjectivist with unassailable conviction.

Ash

Thanks for the post Ash.

I used to think I could hear major differences between USB cables; especially high end ones.

I now know that I was delusional!

Ashley,

There are actually a number of reason's why one cable would sound better than another. Most of this stuff is not predictable nor is it measurable because each system is different, powered by different set of circumstances, type of computer, type of dac etc...

But it has been pretty easy to test somethings.....

Test SETUP:

Computer of choice <====USB CABLE UNDER TEST ===>[USB Analyzer]<==>DAC---->Prism dScope Analyzer
||----->Differential Digital Oscilloscope (DSO)

From the above we can send test tones from the computer check the eye pattern at the DSO, check for protocol errors using the USB Analyzer and then actually check for distortion differences, jitter and so forth with the Prism. Actually I have also added the Wavecrest DTS system that can show jitter performance at the dac chip and see what kind of errors the controller see's using an in circuit emulator.

This was one of the test we use to prove to Ray Kimber that the ferrites used on his cable was actually effecting the results of the dac.

Another thing that I have found is that some cables seem to reflect PC noise and others seem to attract it (without the use of ferrites etc). The latter will of course cause noise in the system which will result in the output of the analog section.

I am sure there are probably differences in Firwire cables also.

I know this stuff maybe a little silly for you to realize but everything effects a system. I use to think the computer had no effect then the USB cable etc...

I should know better in 27 years of doing High End... everything effects the sound. It's just allot easier to hear in better systems.

Thanks
Gordon

Gordon

When I was a kid I remember a Radio Amateur explaining to me that, during the War, experienced Morse code operators were able to recognise the people sending them messages from others surrounding and overlapping their signal as well as all whistling and other racket that accompanied the radio transmissions of those days. Now I see it as a good analogy, because lurking in all the crap from a computer are noughts and ones in data packets that the recipient device can distinguish simply because it is not equipped to take account of anything else. USB cables don't need comparative tests because the system is designed to ensure that they either work or they don't, nothing more.

Look at it as a balance of probabilities; You probably can't hear differences between any cables if they are the correct ones for the job, but you can hear clipping amps, you can hear differences between DACs (though you shouldn't be able to), you can hear differences between preamps and you can certainly hear differences between speakers.

I believe the secret to getting a good sound is to start with things that are known to make big differences and ignore things that the balance of probabilities says can't. Otherwise there is a risk that you'll place emphasis in the wrong places and end on the road to nowhere.

Ash

Actually, one thread I can comment on. The differences between USB cables are real. But beware: a good constructed cable, that follows the rules of the USB consortium should be able to provide the promised performance. Nevertheless, I bought some years ago a mid-priced USB cable from Monster Cable and I´ve used it ever since. The reason for its better sound is very simple: the power cable inside the USB cable is thicker compared to normal USB cables. And since my USB interfaces are bus powered this explains the sound differences.

So, if you´ve got a bus-powered USB interface you most likeley will have differences with better cables. Cheap cables tend to not having the right insulation, shielding etc. This is not bad for the function of the USB devices because USB posesses a good error correction but it will of course slow down the speed. This is something that can be proved very easy with another external device, a scanner. My scanning process is (measurably) faster with better cables - but that´s the only advance (reaction time between scanner & PC improves - better communication, scanning process has the same speed of course). The picture is always the same. It should be, otherwise the error correction wouldn´t work properly.

....when do we get to see shorter 12" USB cables then?

As for me? I have a huge collection of USB cables made over the years.

I simply pick the ones with the best looking (read robust) construction and thickest AWG rating.

I go for ferrites too. I just like them.

I have no connections to my Mini, Macbook Pro or Apple TV all music, video, TV programs, photos and my printing are done by wireless streaming and I wouldn't go back for the World.

At work my La Cie back up, my scanner and my photo printer are USB connected, but the test stations use Airport Express and you can't beat em. And yes we did do all the 24/172 comparisons with 16/44s from them and no you can't hear it if you're careful to match levels and let someone else switch while you (and a load of volunteers) try to hear differences.

Ash

1. Noughts and Ones do not exist within a computer system. 'Noughts and Ones' are an analogy used to describe the various methods of storing/using on/off states (Digital Data). USB cables carry voltage, not noughts and ones!

The USB Implementers Forum, Inc. is a non-profit corporation founded by the group of companies that developed the Universal Serial Bus specification. The USB-IF was formed to provide a support organization and forum for the advancement and adoption of Universal Serial Bus technology. The Forum facilitates the development of high-quality compatible USB peripherals (devices), and promotes the benefits of USB and the quality of products that have passed compliance testing.

2. In order to be able to display the USB Implementers Forum (USB-IF) Logo, manufacturers must submit their product/s for compliance testing. They must also only use component parts that have themselves been compliance tested. (This does not mean to say that they must do so in order to sell a USB product, but they have to comply if they wish to display the Logo.) The pertinent document to this discussion, detailing the scientific testing needed to meet the compliance requirement is the 'Universal Serial Bus Cables and Connectors Class Document'. This is available from http://www.usb.org/developers/compliance/cable/.

I tend to agree that I may well be hard pushed to tell the difference between two properly constructed USB cables. The fact remains, however, that a full program of testing, (by certified testing companies), exists to ensure that cables meet a laid down minimum electrical and mechanical specification, for companies wishing to display the consumer confidence logo on their product/s.

I think it would be fair to say that 'rolling' USB leads may not be the most rewarding way of improving the sound of your system, but it is wrong to say that they cannot make a difference. If it didn't matter then I'm sure that the USB-IF would not have bothered with a compliance testing program for it.

I suppose I'm bothering to argue this one because I think the subjective side of Hi Fi has done this great hobby so much harm, so before I'm done, I will just point out that my USB cables are Printing High Quality Colour Photos, running a Colour Laser jet from the bass station, scanning and backing up the entire contents of my computer via Time machine and doing it flawlessly, so why can't they do the same with Music. USB cables must adhere to certain standards to work and lengths are restricted, but otherwise there isn't any issue, they just work or they don't.

Please also note that the typos, punctuation and grammatical errors in this post are down to me and not the cheap fibre optical cable with joins in it that transmitted it to CA.

Ash

It may also be worth pointing out that the suppression of both radiated and conducted EMI is also an important factor in the design of USB circuits and cables. There is an interesting article, from Intel, here : www.ti.com/sc/docs/apps/msp/intrface/usb/emitest.pdf. I suppose if a badly constructed USB cable introduced EMI into one or more circuit planes of a DAC it would be safe to assume that the results wouldn't be good?

So, a lot of scientific people have gone to a lot of trouble to describe the parameters required for a 'good' cable. As for whether or not there is a difference in 'sound' in a USB cable, I doubt I would be able to hear it. Could a USB cable do bad things to what it is connected to, and would I be able to hear that? It would seem that the boffins at Intel certainly think so, and maybe I would. :)

My understanding of the world leads me to believe that if a spec exists, then it is possible to produce a product that fails to meet it, but still works, and to produce a product that exceeds it, and still works. I know which one I would rather own.

I agree that the subjectivist view are indeed causing trouble not only in perception of sound, but at many places, as in perception of God too, see poor Darwin!

But, this tread reminds me of people that says why the dac in a computer could possible be bad? Why a transport is bad or good? isn't it only 0 and 1's? Don't I open my documents right? No matter how much I copy them?

The scientific, physics, music cenario is, time domain and the quantity in scrutiny seems to be jitter. Music (from a computer) is not like your email, word office doc or your latex/emacs file for the next IEEE/APS paper you writing.

But, the scientific, psycho-acustics, tells you many things. One thing is people have different perceptions, but like mp3/org/ their algorithms follows a trend only, to satisfy the mean of a (restricted) population, so does all standards.

So, anyway, it is always good to compare equivalent orders of effects. Now to the lab, as far as I can see, usb cables would be the last thing I would consider changing!!!!

As for usb, if you are using power from the computer you are more or less screwed. Go buy some batteries or even an el cheapo power suply.

I think, that different usb cables might sound different, but then will sound bad anyway (comparing with the same thing with a proper power) with probability 1.

In other words if your usb cables sounds different, it is very likely they failed standards badly, jittery somehow (god knows how), notice that is very easy to stamp an usb symbol in a plug without ever passing tests!!!

In short, I would change DAC, or the USB link, a good one should be able to recover from a resonably bad cable, if there is really one in the universe.

Cheers,
ps. Before changing cables/dac do this:
Turn your monitor off.
Turn wireless off.
Turn visualization plugins off.
and just for the hell of it...use the money wisely and improve to older pure malt?

So I guess the question " does the length of the USB cable from the PC to the next device affect the sound quality ? " could receive various answers, including: yes and no. I'm thinking at the moment to get started by adding a simple external box between my disc based music and my main system.
Laptop (on my lap) > 5m USB > Trends Audio UD 10.1 as digital interface > AES balanced cable > Krell KPS25sc Dac > Krell monoblocks > Watt Puppy 5.1's.

Bye the way, my new Wadia 170i with my Classic Ipod sounds good through the above.

Does 3 metres and then you need an extender.

Ash

Ashley,

Welcome to High End Audio. If you don't know the area in question let me explain a little about it. Everything is purely subjective. No two people will agree on anything and the most obscure things will effect the sound in the smallest way.

What I said above in testing is all true. Believe me allot of these so called cable companies in High End have no buisness here at all. They have little to no background and they have less idea of what is important in USB than the real companies.

It really doesn't matter in High End. Everyone is welcome in the lunacy that follows.

This is merely my way of testing what is out there. I can weed them out quickly and be done with it.

To give you an idea how sill we are here is a picture of my system on the 6Moons site:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/wavelength3/cosecant.html

Just like all geeky audio guys I have what 3 hard drives full of music. A modified mac mini with 4g of memory, 2.3GHZ Core 2 Duo processor with a 128GB SSD internal hard drive (faster than most desktops). This goes to my Cosecant with 24/96 Numerator dac module to my Royal preamplifier (single stage 71A non inverting by use of custom input transformer, Penny and Giles RF15 vol) to my Corona Series VT52 Single Ended amplifiers (5AR4 rectifiers, WE417, 1952 Sylvania VT52 parallel feed output transformers with Cobalt cores) then to the speakers that I designed for Terry Cain the Walla Walla Wall of Sound. Strung pretty much throughout with Nirvana Audio SL and SX wire.

Now I have a degree in electronics, minors in math, physics and music principal instrument percussion. Should any of the above make sense??? no not really... Heck I have 5W amplifiers that are made with ultra pure copper wound transformers here in the states to my design and we used Cobalt in the output transformers instead of iron. Who else would even look at using Cobalt in a transformer (NASA?). The stuff is going for like $1400 a pound. The input transformer on the preamplifier is would with %99.9999 pure silver wire and high nickel cores (also custom designed here at MagneQuest). The speakers are tractix backhorns that are 3.2M long the exit is on the side and the set is complementary and they are flat in the room to 32Hz. Top end peters out at about 18Khz. But the sound of the single driver delivering performances is stunning. There is no dissimilarities in the sound no xover problems what so ever and too boot they are 96dB effecient.

Were nuts... and were glad to be here. Sure we think about what's technical, everything above has been tested with some of the best equipment in the world. We are dragging and pulling every freaken bit of information we can from our systems.

What cable company would go this far to make a better sounding USB cable? no none of them would because there is no money in it for them. But here in the lunny bin there are tons of people willing to shell out for a better mouse trap.

Thanks
Gordon

Gordon

I've been interested in Hi fi since the nineteen fifties and I built my first amplifiers then and also co-founded my first Audio Company while still at School. It was surprisingly successful too. For reasons that I won't bore you with, I joined ATC part time in '85 and full time in '87 and stayed there till '95. During that time I did most CES shows and also high end shows all over Europe and the Far East, even right into central China. ATC was a successful Hi end company and I did much to make them that. They were even more successful on the Pro Audio side. The Customer list was astounding and included the likes of Lou Reed, The Pink Floyd, Supertramp, Warner Bros, Universal, the BBC and more and the company played a key role in early Active speaker design.

I enjoyed it, but was glad to buy half of AVI and join Martin in '95. Both are engineering companies although Martin is more able, having made his first radio when he was eight, designed and built his first hi fi and a Scope to test it aged 12, become the youngest radio Amateur in the UK at sixteen and then the youngest slow scan TV operator. He graduated from the UK's best Electronics University, Bristol and went on to become a Project Leader with one of the world's leading defence Avionics Companies before deciding that he didn't enjoy being stationed all over the world away from his family. In '89 and he resigned and founded AVI and now we're teamed up with www.ls-design.co.uk who are a design consultancy. They designed the radio Head for the Bentley Arnage that is called Naim, they designed and manufactured all the Rel stuff till it moved to China and they've designed lots of Hi end for lots of different UK and overseas companies. They do a whole raft of different electronic design for several different industries and they love their hi fi.

I'm really sorry for repeating all this but it's extremely important to understand that AVI is a small group of boffins and associated electronic companies with a passion for audio and the deepest imaginable respect for best possible electronic engineering. Martin's father and grandfather were both employed by Rolls-Royce in the Aero Engine division and they set the standards. Not surprisingly this has meant that every bit of hi end we can lay our hands on has been dissected in our lab and that includes Krells, Levinsons, Macintosh and many more. We also have a collection of radios dating back to 1923, some of which we've restored and all of which are working.

We're as passionate about audio as anyone and surrounded by scientists who insist on proof for any engineering decision made and who feel just as we do that hi fi has been hi-jacked by unscientific subjectivists with many ideas that, to put it kindly, not only don't resonate with the scientific community but not with the public either and that as a result of this situation, it has become the butt of many jokes. Worse than that, it has cost many enthusiasts large sums of money for products that do well subjectively in reviews but don't deliver. I get a surprising amount of correspondence on this and I'm quoting a recent email here that I found quite moving:

Your in-depth and insightful commentary on CA is valuable
to me, and to those I'm in touch with who have been through
'the wringer' with audiophile 'BS'. Many of us have spent *way too
much* of our hard-earned money in search of the magical 'synergy',
which, to be blunt, I think is total BS by now.

I've loved music and stereos for 30+ years, and in the past 10 or so,
have finally been able to buy pretty much what I wished to buy, to enjoy music.
I now have the luxury of being able to spend as I wish, but I am loathe
to do so, unless I get reasonable value in return. If I do, I'm in with both feet.
But as you well know, the audiophile business is mostly a ruse.
I'm sorry for that, because it's left me with a bad attitude, and I admit it!

Rest assured, your sometimes in-depth commentary on CA helps
others like me, in ferreting out the baloney from the reality.
FWIW, I encourage you to continue with your efforts in that regard.
I can't imagine it won't benefit your bottom line in the long term,
and I hope it does ... but I'm just guessing of course.

My three friends are very much interested in your 'backgrounders',
and your posts have helped them begin to decipher what's missing
in their gear, and what the priorities are, or might be.

We feel that people like this need simple logical explanations for what makes good sound, they need to know what will affect that sound and they need to know as much of the theory as they can grasp, so that they can try and decide what will suit their needs and their pocket best. Everybody on this Forum believes he has the best sound (me included) and most have reasons for convincing themselves they are right. Sadly none of us will be and nor will any of us improve our system by "subjectively" analysing cables, or far that matter, any part of a system. People need more useful information and if they don't get it, more and more of them will decide that they are safer spending their money on a cheap Midi System knowing that it isn't the best, but that it is at least worth the money and likely to be reliable.

All I've tried to do since appearing on this Forum (which I consider Heaven sent) is to explain the basic facts and the relative impact on sound quality of the different parts of a hi fi system, I've obviously shown a bias towards my own products, but I've tried as much as possible to talk in general terms.

As far as the Industry is concerned, I'm afraid that I don't understand the American Market as I do the Brit one other than to observe that they are further advanced in BS rejection than in the UK where things are still bad. Most of the companies are losing money, some have changed hands and one journalist recently implied that some won't survive. They were doing badly before the present crisis and now at least one is laying people off.

I understand that you and others are doing all sorts of subjective things with audio, I'm not sure that "high end" is a fair term for what sounds like older technology, presumably price justifies the tag, but what I do believe fervently is that subjective evaluation is disaster prone and that scientific proof is essential. I don't think I'm alone either.

sincerely

Ashley

I think High End audio NEEDS things to be subjective. It would be ideal to the customer for it to be completely objective lol. I'm not taking a side either way though, because both folks appear to have a different approach to computer audio. Although I would say that a lot of the small tinkering seems to be just for the sake of tinkering (with respect to customer systems). I understand companies tinkering with everything possible to improve their products. I often find myself wanted to buy something new to "advance" my system, when in reality it's just an aesthetic adjustment.

It is definitely interesting to see the two approaches to computer based/digital audio (avi and wavelength).

I just got in a new pair of headphones this afternoon. Audio Technicas. They sound very different from my Sennheisers. Less weight in the bass, though all the bass is there. Details in the upper mids and trebles are carved out of the background a bit more dramatically, though none of those details are missing from the Senns. The soundstage could be just a bit wider...it's hard to tell. All very subjective except for a slight sibilant quality in the critical mids of the ATs, though it's not much, not very objectionable and may smooth out with break-in.

It will be nice to have them hanging next to my trusty, beloved Senns, and that's the kind of subjective I'll take, thank you very much. The kind of subjective that allows me an easy choice of sound signatures, at the transducers, where it belongs. Show me a DAC with a sound of its own and I'll show you a DAC that has it wrong. Show me a USB cable that carries anything more (or less) than on or off, and I'll show you a broken USB cable.

Tim

Hi folks.

I'd recommend Opticis Optical USB cable, powered with a nice 5V regulated supply.
The awful noise induced to the receiver by pretty much all standard cables will be gone.
Distance won't be a problem any longer either.

You can have the best DAC or reclocker or async mode transfer or whatever. If your receiver
picks up the PC noise, you can forget about clean audio.

Cheers

What kind of noise would that be ?

Ground loop noise.

Ashley James Wrote:
"I'm sorry but it is absolutely and totally scientifically impossible to hear any differences between USB cables. It really is. What you are showing is how easily we and our ears are fooled."

Exactly Ashley. I've taken it one step further though: My way to get the universe to relvolve around what has to be true is I just dismiss all my senses. I refuse to see, taste, touch, smell and hear anything unless science has put it's stamp of approval on it. This way I'm not fooled by anything. Between you and me, we should be able to save everyone from their delusions! ;)

tfarney Wrote:
"I just got in a new pair of headphones this afternoon. Audio Technicas. They sound very different from my Sennheisers."

I'm sorry but, absolutely and totally, all headphones sond the same. ;)

Robert

Hear are two pieces of information:

The first shows how our ears adapt to the sound we hear without us realising it. It's an experiment done at Cambridge University Auditory Dept. http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/~mattd/sine-wave-speech/

And the second is self explanatory:

Wine price test shows marketing at work in brain

 
Researchers in California have shown that you can increase a person's enjoyment of wine by just sticking a higher price on it.

In a demonstration of the power of marketing, researchers in California showed you can increase a person's enjoyment of wine by just sticking a higher price on it, according to a study released Monday.

Antonio Rangel, associate professor of economics at the California Institute of Technology, led a team to test how marketing shapes consumers' perceptions and whether it also enhances their enjoyment of a product. 

They asked 21 volunteers to sample five different bottles of Cabernet Sauvignon and rate their taste preferences. The taste test was run 15 times, with the wines presented in random order. 

The taste test was blind except for information on the price of the wine. Without telling the volunteers, the researchers presented two of the wines twice, once with the true price tag, and again with a fake one. 

They also passed off a 90 dollar bottle of Cabernet Sauvignon as a 10 dollar bottle, and presented a five dollar bottle as one worth 45 dollars. 

Aside from collecting the test subjects' impressions of the wines, the researchers scanned their brains to monitor the neural activity in the medial orbitofrontal cortex -- an area of the brain believed to encode pleasure related to taste, odors and music. 

The study found that inflating the price of a bottle of wine enhanced a person's experience of drinking it, as shown by the neural activity. 

The volunteers consistently gave higher ratings to the more "expensive" wines. 

Brain scans also showed greater neural activity in the pleasure center when they were sampling those "pricey" wines, indicating that the increased pleasure they reported was a real effect in the brain. 

"It's a common belief among scientists and economists that the quality of the experience depends on the properties of the product and the state of the consumer; for example, if a consumer is thirsty or not," said Rangel. 

"But what this study shows is that the brain's rewards center takes into account subjective beliefs about the quality of the experience. 

"If you believe that the experience is better, even though it's the same wine, the rewards center of the brain encodes it as feeling better." 

In other words, "people's beliefs about the quality of a wine affect how well it tastes for the brain," he concluded. 

The study appears in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. 

© 2008

I mean no disrespect but I think the evidence that we can't rely on our hearing without strict controls is as strong as that which shows USB data streams work or they don't.

Audio is science and engineering and everything is designed and tested with measurement, even the components used are selected because they measure and therefore perfom better than their predecessors. At no point in the process could listening be useful until after measurement. Engineers need to know the limitations of their hearing.

Computer Audiophile's strength is that it unites IT people, Audiophiles and Professionals who've been using computers for years to make the music we listen to. Of the three groups, Audiophiles are the most vociferous and irrational and nothing will convince them that they could be mistaken. They can hear all sorts of things regardless of evidence to the contrary.

I think it is very sad because it has marginalised audio and made it the butt of many jokes and it may yet kill the industry because many companies were doing badly before the present crisis. The problem I see is that it's possible to have an interesting debate with people who are receptive to new or alternative viewpoints and who have some respect for established fact. The arguments (for they are not debates) with audiophiles are as impossible to resolve as those that might take place between the Medical fraternity and faith healers or witch doctors and the outcome is likely to be the same. Nothing will be resolved and the former will depart frustrated. In Audio this means engineers, the ones who are most likely to make progress in improving sound quality. Actually this has been happening since the early eighties as magazines and shops have been invaded by "subjectives". Vast numbers have left the hobby, in many instances, disgruntled because they've wasted a fortune on kit that doesn't deliver.

On this forum I've explained the things in Hi Fi that make the big differences and why, in the hopes that it will help people evaluate better what they hear and so improve their system. And I've wasted thousands of words pointing out that a USB2 cable as might be supplied with a Printer or a Back up HD will be as good as it gets.

Ash

Good morning Ashley.

Looks like we're the early ones hu?

"...USB2 cable as might be supplied with a Printer or a Back up HD will be as good as it gets."

Ummm....maybe you need a better printer and HD.

Well, all that says to me is that even objectivity is subjective.

I guess I'm to conclude that no matter where we turn, our experiences are delusional. So be it.

For me personally, I'll take my delusions. I think my wife is hot - even at 53, I like Jell-O but not Lima Beans even though both have some degree of sustenance, I like dogs more than cats and I enjoy what good cabling brings to a good music system, even USB cables - I hear differences that are important to me. These are just four things that have made my life a little more colorful and rich instead of analytical and sterile.

Really, I do think science is useful and valuable but not the be all, end all as it's propped up to be many times by intellectuals. I find it fairly condescending when science is paraded as god on a stick.

Also, really don't have a problem with you having your position. Just seems like you're saying everyone (which includes me...) should share your position if we wanna be right. Am I to assume if I don't I'm screwy?

Anyway, no need to go round and round on this. We're good. Lets call it done.

Cheers!

"tfarney Wrote:
"I just got in a new pair of headphones this afternoon. Audio Technicas. They sound very different from my Sennheisers."

I'm sorry but, absolutely and totally, all headphones sond the same. ;)"

Cute, but a fatally flawed analogy. Headphones communicate something much more subjective and complex than "on" or "off." USB cables do not. They are not all created equal, of course. Some are heavier, more durable, more reliable than others. But they all either deliver the ons and offs accurately or not. If, like your customer, you hear a transition from hifi to music with a change to your USB cable, enjoy your...oh, wait a minute...I just saw that you're getting $700 for a 2.0 meter USB cable. I suppose I might enjoy those delusions as well.

Tim

"Cute..."

Thanks Tim. I thought it was kinda clever too.

Hmmm....headphone diaphrams just move back and forth - pretty simple, no?

"...I just saw that you're getting $700 for a 2.0 meter USB cable. "

Na...We only get $420.00 for 'em at 2.0m. Not cheap I suppose but, agree or not, good value compared to what could be spent. Next time you want to quote pricing from us check with me first or check our advertised promotions - not hard to find really unless there's a reason you'd not want to notice them.

Done with tit for tat. Carry on if you must.

Cheers!

I'm comfortable with subjective choices for wines, dogs, cars, even houses, but I think I'd be happier if my Doctor tells me what colour of pill would be best for my illness or for that matter if someone could produce convincing reasons backed by a little science for why I might pay hundreds of dollars for something that normally costs less than ten.

Ash

"Cute..."

"Thanks Tim. I thought it was kinda clever too."

-- Your'e welcome.

"Hmmm....headphone diaphrams just move back and forth - pretty simple, no?"

-- No.

"We only get $420.00 for 'em at 2.0m. Not cheap I suppose but, agree or not, good value compared to what could be spent. Next time you want to quote pricing from us check with me first or check our advertised promotions - not hard to find really unless there's a reason you'd not want to notice them."

-- It's your price list, your web site. If you want people to understand that a 2.0m cable is $420, not $700, update it.

"Done with tit for tat. Carry on if you must."

--No, I'm good.

Tim

I trust you had a good xmas? You seem to be in fine form :)

Cost has nothing to do with good, or bad, science. Cost is a marketing decision. If you're railing against the irrational pricing of many 'high end' audio products, then count me in.

If you're telling people that all usb leads are created equal then you're doing them a disservice.

The original poster was enquiring of other forum users if they had experience of 'high end' usb cables. I'm with you on the 'probably couldn't hear it even if it did make a difference' stance, although I have bought what I consider to be a well made cable, just because I like well made kit.

My question to you is why not let the discussion continue? As you pointed out, the audiophile element are irrational beings who refuse to listen to the wisdom of proven science. You're not going to change minds, so why the persistence? Both points of view will be there in the thread for all to read and to make up their own minds. To be frank, Ash, you're in danger of simply being rude and patronising. The manufacture of audio kit has to be, rightly, based on good science. The assembly of these bits of kit into a pleasurable whole is the task of the irrational, cloth-eared, easily duped buffoon who is paying for it.

Information is one thing and is probably what we are all doing here. But there are two sides to every story, not just the one. I personally believe that everything in the audio chain affects the final sound and it is a part of the hobby I find stimulating and rewarding. I like rolling my own cables, I like trying out different sorts of valves in my 2w SET, I built my own speakers. It is my hobby. It is not life-and-death.

I'm sure the original poster would have liked some answers to the question as well as the opinion that it doesn't matter.

I'm done. :)

Hey Tim.

"If you want people to understand that a 2.0m cable is $420, not $700, update it."

Good Point. I put a box around the "Current Promotions and Specials HERE" that's at the top of the page. Should make it easier to notice.

Cheers!

Well said BobH.

"'m with you on the 'probably couldn't hear it even if it did make a difference' stance, although I have bought what I consider to be a well made cable, just because I like well made kit."

I have two "free with USB device"-grade cables in my signal chain. One connects the hard drive that carries my music to my laptop. The other connects my lap top to my digital transport. Because it's a laptop in the middle, which serves other purposes, including net surfing around the house, they get plugged and unplugged multiple times every day. Hard duty for USB cables, yet they still carry my zeros and ones without error or noise, the wee workhorses. They are rather plain, though. If they ever decide to break, I may buy prettier ones. Actually, I should go ahead and do it while I'm still in hifi retailing (something I won't be able to afford to do once the market begins to recover) and can still buy premium cables at 5% over dealer cost, which is about 20 cents on the dollar.

Pretty is very expensive when it comes to cables.

Tim

BobH says:

"you're in danger of simply being rude and patronising."

personally, I thought Ash's comments were close-minded, disrespectful (of other's opinions) and condescending.

clay

Ashley says:
"I'm comfortable with subjective choices for wines, dogs, cars, even houses, but I think I'd be happier if my Doctor tells me what colour of pill would be best for my illness or for that matter if someone could produce convincing reasons backed by a little science for why I might pay hundreds of dollars for something that normally costs less than ten."

Ashley,
Many of us are comfortable with subjective choices for audio, as well. After all, it's a hobby in support of musical enjoyment.

Using your Doctor analogy, for every ailment, there are several different opinions that might be obtained depending on the doctor. There is no one correct wrong or right even with matters of health.

Ditto for audio.

clay

I like what Bob has written and agree with it and I'm extremely sorry if I've caused offence, I didn't intend that, but I did feel it important to stress the dangers of down valuing science, especially if it's not a subject you're strong in.

We wouldn't have hi fi or for that matter much of what makes today's living rather better than is was in the past without science and AVI wouldn't have won its thirty or more awards over the years for excellence if we hadn't used it to design our products.

I am also deeply concerned that an Industry I've cared passionately about for much of my life is slowly fading.

with sincere apologies.

Ashley

Hello Bob.

I agree. I think you make a good point. The only exception I would take is what's rational with either how a manufacturer prices stuff or an enthusiast's buying habits.

I agree - audio toys, and that's all this stuff is really, are expensive. I wished it weren't so both from a consumer and manufacturer point of view.

Even as expensive as some of this stuff is, I don't believe it's fair to paint a broad brush stroke across the enthusiast landscape as being irrational for what we're willing to spend. For myself, and I don't imagine I'm too different than a lot of people, regardless whether it's audio related or something else, if it's important to me (or if I want to simply find out if it is important to me...) and I have the means to acquire what it is I want or need, then I'll get it. I don't believe that's irrational thinking. Do you? I guess it would be irrational if buying a cable would mean leaving me homeless.

As a manufacturer I can tell you our product pricing is not irrational or even market driven. While I suppose there are some manufacturers who just throw a big price tag at the wall and hope it sticks, there are truly some of us who don't operate that way. RSAD's products for example are priced based on materials, labor, labor, labor, a bit of misc. overhead and, based on sales volume, what I need to make for a living which, BTW is modest, believe me. A movie and Dairy Queen with the wife once in while is as good as it gets - we're content.

A little further....

Even though I appreciated the differences good stuff made, I used to think our toys, especially cables, were a stupid rip off.....until I started doing this stuff myself. Now I understand. LOL! I've always said this and stand by it still: Until someone has walked a mile in my or another manufacturers shoes, be careful how many fingers are pointed. Can't tell you how many times I've pointed a finger only to find three pointing back at myself.

All in all, I think RSAD for one is making a good positive difference on more than one level. We've been doing what we do successfully for eight years and we have some pretty savvy and well respected clients. I'm sure there are others who can make the same claim.

Cheers to you Bob!

Hey Ashley.

If you felt part of your apology needed to come my way, no worries. No offense taken.

Still, Just to be clear...

"I did feel it important to stress the dangers of down valuing science..."

I don't think anyone was devaluing science. Science or otherwise wasn't talked about until you brought it up.

I imagine you're a credible Gent. Have you ever audtioned a high end USB cable? If you haven't, want to? I'll send you one to play with for a week if you'll send it back. No agenda, conspiracy or strings attached.

Pop me a post if you'd like: ridgestreetaudio@comcast.net

Cheers!

Poiema!!! R-v3
USB
Digital Master

700 bucks :S

What goes in to the pricing for "high end" usb cables? I mean they look fantastic and everything, but what differentiates it from some 30 buck belkin cable? I know the whole argument going on so far, but I was just curious to hear from someone making usb cables.

Re - Irrational pricing - point taken :) Got a bit carried away with my 'irrationals' there, maybe!

I have to admit, I have absolutely no idea how much it costs to develop, market and support an audio product. I only know how much I would like to be able to spend on keeping the industry healthy - and it's nowhere near as much as I've actually got! (Which is, in turn, considerably less than my wife thinks I need!).

Keep up the good work.

I used to be highly vocal against homeopathy. Then someone pointed out that homeopathy does work in that it makes people feel better and takes the strain off the UK National Health Service because the people who use homeopathy it don't bother their doctor. It's the placebo effect. And it's a real, measurable effect. It just doesn't happen to have any basis in the homeopath's water-based therapy claims.

I am quite comfortable with the same thing happening in audio. It's just a shame it is promoted to the extent where it might drive away rational, real world music enthusiasts who decide they can't be bothered pursuing decent sound if it means messing around with expensive cables.

Being scientific does not mean you allow a scientist to decide what you see, feel or hear but it is a valuable means of objectively assessing what you THINK you see, feel and hear. A subjective impression is often the least reliable source of information about what is really going on. It's a starting point, nothing more. Subjective impressions are the bane of witness reports the world over.

Taking the scientific approach is neither easy, glib nor condescending. It can be extremely difficult and the results often counter intuitive. If anyone wants to read more, I can recommend Lewis Wolpert's 'The Unnatural Nature of Science'.

By all means be laid back and appreciate cables for their colour, butch factor or whatever you like. But unless it is possible to measure and prove the cable is doing something different - and offer a scientifically-literate explanation why - it's potentially placebo, however you think it sounds.

P.S. The difference between transducers can usually be measured. Sometimes it's even possible to correlate the measurements with the subjective effects, given a listener with reasonably neutral hearing.

USb Prices
Iamkirk Wrote:
"Poiema!!! R-v3
USB
Digital Master

700 bucks :S

What goes in to the pricing for "high end" usb cables? I mean they look fantastic and everything, but what differentiates it from some 30 buck belkin cable? I know the whole argument going on so far, but I was just curious to hear from someone making usb cables."

Well, evidently my box didn't help. LOL! Kirk, if I tell no, not $700.00 but $420.00 does that change your "700 bucks :S" to "420 bucks :/" or better?

Without giving away my intellectual (some would say lunacy...) property, here goes...

Most audio cabling, spec'd or generic, is mass produced and can take huge advantage of economy of scale. In my experience and opinion there's a downside: The manufacturing process, while it poops out tons of bulk, compromises materials and it severely limits design options and choices.

There are a very few companies, of which RSAD is one, that builds their cabling one at a time from the ground up - i.e. we're not pulling cabling from a spool or shoving a wire through a tube of some sort then putting a pretty dress on it.

Here, I actually start with bare wire sourced from our precious metals vendor. This gives us a lot of materials and applications choices that very few if any even consider. Before I even begin to build the cabling there are several processes we apply to the bare conductors. The other build materials must be prep'd then we're ready to begin the build. Distinct from our chosen topology(s), the build technique we developed is laborsome but worth it - it makes a difference. There is not a high production manufacturing process that can do what we require. Wished there was - my life would certainly be easier. I had to design and build my own tooling to help facilitate the build process which is mostly hand work. After build is complete all our cabling gets a burn-in conditioning on a modified Audiodharma Pro to help facilitate break-in once installed in a system. BTW, here's a tidbit you may find helpful: there is a distinction between burn-in and break-in or, "settling" if you will. During the settling or break-in, it's not just the cable that's acclimating.

Finally, Lynn (my wife) and I sleep two nights with each cable before it goes out the door. Kinda gives our cables that portrayal of intimacy when installed in a good system. Okay...not really.

BobH Wrote:
"I have to admit, I have absolutely no idea how much it costs to develop, market and support an audio product. I only know how much I would like to be able to spend on keeping the industry healthy..."

I love it! Someone who understands what I believe the buyer/seller dynamic should be: Win/Win. I get so tired of the self centered "Give it to me at your expense" mentality. Little tolerance I have there and I'm usually pretty short with such conversation.

"...and it's nowhere near as much as I've actually got! (Which is, in turn, considerably less than my wife thinks I need!)."

LOL...I can definitely relate to that!

Cheers!

I'm genuinely curious this time. What does burning in a cable do, other than heat it up a little? And doesn't it cool down once it's unplugged?

Robert
Ridge Street Audio Designs

Thanks. It's just kind of hard to sort out all the cable choices. I mean i guess it's all relative to the price of the system (to some extent). Bluejeans claims they make their own cables too. Is this just a matter of what products are used? Or the choice to burn in the cable? Bluejeans gets recommended a lot, but perhaps that is just for middle of the road systems. Does anyone use this kind of cable in high end systems?

I hope someone will ping Siegfried Linkwitz and get him
up to speed on cabling. Sure, he co-authored the Linkwitz-Riley
crossover, but for all we know he's stumbling around buzzed
down on the farm by now and has completely lost touch
with the subjective.

He writes, regarding interconnects:

"I find what is needed at Radio Shack."

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion-faq.htm

Brutal!

Of course he probably knows nothing about USB cables.

;-)