Look forward to a cool seminar, and we promise to leave the tomatoes at home!

What does Nordost have to do with computer audio?

I looked at the back issues of HiFi+ magazine, and see nothing to qualify Roy Gregory as a member of this panel.

I guess he'll be telling the attendees how important it is to use hiend digital cables.

Hi Frank - I certainly will be reporting from RMAF. Plus, I should have my Symposium article published this evening :~)

Gordon, I look forward to meeting you.

Jeff

...is rather more aware of the state of the computer audio art than you give him credit. Unfortunately, as editor (and now as contributor) to Hi-Fi+, he is bound by the tastes and demands of the readership. As am I.

I took over the editorship earlier this year with clear designs to further the understanding of computer audio in Hi-Fi+'s readership. To that end, my first issue featured reviews of the Benchmark DAC1 Pre and the HRT Streamer and Streamer+ (great products, lousy name... what's next, the Hot Flush power supply?). The second issue I edited discussed Spotify in an editorial and there was a review of the Naim HDX. After that – nothing. Why?

Because I think the only way I could get a worse reaction from a crowd would be to lay on a bull-fight as entertainment at a Hindu wedding. A subsequent reader survey has shown interest in computer audio in the readership is currently way below multichannel music – and that in a country where living space is at such a premium that even multichannel home theater struggles to justify its existence, where multichannel music is a subset of a minority interest and where multichannel SACD players are functionally non-existent.

This poses the same problem for me as Roy faced. Sales of CDs and CD players are in decline. People are turning to their computers as music servers and to download music. And mentioning this in the pages of Hi-Fi+ has, until recently, ended up with the writer being likened to Benedict Arnold, Vidkun Quisling and William 'Lord Haw-Haw' Joyce. As it stands, the seemingly typical response to suggestions of music servers replacing CD in the rank-and-file Hi-Fi+ readership is to say "time to dust off the record player, then". Remarkably, that's a major improvement – a year ago, such suggestions would be met with "when you cross the road, don't bother looking!"

Right now, I have to consider computer audio as an occasional feature in the magazine, then a regular one. This is slow progress, but it is progress. And it was also progress begun under Roy's tenure as editor.

Edit: I forgot to mention, I will be attending this seminar (as well as the show itself), but as a photographer/journalist for RMAF and AVGuide. That's different from a photo-journalist by a factor of about five bullet holes. I'll try not to heckle. See you there!

Hi Alan - Thanks for the post. Some interesting information. See you at RMAF :~)

Based on the RMAF forum schedule, it seems that Mr. Gregory's main focus will be promoting Nordost cables.

If he's so more aware of the state of the computer audio art than I give him credit, please direct me to any reviews he's done of PC audio
or any digital playback equipment.

Having a paid Nordost cable employee on your reviewing staff is a joke.

Are Roy and J.Valin rooming together at RMAF? Will there be some
"special price" Nordost cable deals in the parking lot after the show?

You've taken over the helm of a sinking ship.

Im writing to you as a member and not a business and thinking of attending the show as such! Have you thought of some kind of event for all the CA members to get together and hang out as a group?

Jesus R

Bruce,

I guess my point is that SACD/DSD has been essentially unusable in the context of consumer computer audio, and from what I recall (I was a very early adopter of SACD with a SCD-1--still have it and use it, and have several hundred SACDs) was marketed to the record labels in the beginning of it's introduction as such as a way to combat Internet piracy (you can't rip it if you can't read it). I'm sure playing DXD master files from a professional workstation sounds wonderful, but that's not really a consumer level option either. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this accurately states the current situation with regards to SACD/DSD (note that I'm referring to the DSD layer; obviously with the Redbook layer of a hybrid you can essentially treat it that the same as a regular CD).

1. There are no computer drives that play the DSD layer of a SACD, and apparently Sony has previously stated there never will be.

2. There are no DSD downloads except for a smattering of files from an obscure Norwegian label with even more obscure artists, and very limited options to play these on a computer (some WMP plugin the converts to PCM, which makes DSD purists gasp and leaves Mac users--though I'm mostly a PC/Linux guy--out in the cold, plus I think some very specific Sony VAIO desktops).

3 Aside from very few--and generally proprietary--options, there are virtually no audiophile transports that output, and no audiophile DACs that accept, DSD. It seems like this could potentially be solved with HDMI, as that is being used in mass market multidisc players and receivers to transmit DSD in some cases, but from what I hear the HDMI licensing costs are simply too high for most audiophile companies, hence I don't believe there are any audiophile DACs that support HDMI at this time (excepting PS Audio's proprietary I2S connection, which doesn't use any of the HDMI encryption licenses and therefore doesn't have the stiff licensing payments).

So I guess my question to Mr. Skinas would be, given the above (and again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), what future role will SACD and/or DSD play in the context of an audiophile computer audio system? Unless something dramatically changes, I don't really see if playing any role unfortunately.

Gang,

DSD was a marketing move by Sony and Philips to make money. The CD had run it's course and they both needed some new income. They just did not look at the maketplace well enough before coming up with it.

All the Sony tools for DSD mastering use PCM as their basis.

The problem for computer audiophiles is not if they could get the DSD files but merely what to do with them ounce they have them???

In the end anyone could write a DSD->PCM converter and this would fix the problem.

Thanks
Gordon

Bruce,

I looked for "Atrium 433" in the RMAF Exhibitor list. The only reference I could find to a room 433 is "Marriott 4th Floor", "433", which is the Usher Audio/Musikmatters, JPS Labs, Stillpoints, Power Modules room. Is this the room you will be in?

James

Bruce,

First of all, let me say that I appreciate your work and have purchased some of the HDTracks files you've worked on, oftentimes of SACDs I already own just so I can listen to something higher res on my computer audio setup. I guess I just have a different perception of DSD as someone on the consumer side of things.

I'm aware of the products you mention (which I sort of eluded to in my post but didn't directly name, and I've heard the Meitner and dCS stack), but as I see it there's no momentum at all in the audiophile marketplace towards supporting DSD, either in the traditional standalone digital market or especially the computer audiophile market. EMM and dCS are companies that have been doing this for 5+ years; there hasn't been any new entrants offering DSD input/output since then (Playback Designs was started by a designer who defected from EMM Labs, so to me that really doesn't entirely count as a new company supporting it; I thought they only had a one box player anyways but you'd know better than I). SACD/DSD has been around for 10 years at this point, and I think by any measure it's on it's downslope. Output of DSD is pretty much the same handful of companies that made a heavy investment in SACD at the beginning, and by companies that also were heavily involved on the pro side with DSD--where are all the other high end digital companies like Ayre, Boulder, Goldmund, Linn, MBL, Spectral, Wadia (though I believe they stated they are developing one with their flagship 9 series but it's been heavily delayed), Weiss, etc.? And there's no interoperability...what if I prefer the EMM Labs transport to the dCS transport, but want to use the Scarlatti DAC? I'm out of luck because each company's approach is proprietary and only works with their counterpart product. HDMI seems to be a viable solution for this, as evidenced by mainstream companies like Denon, Pioneer, Onkyo, etc. using it to pass DSD, but apparently the HDMI licensing costs are just too high for the low volume audiophile market. And that's just the dismal situation on the DAC/transport side of the equation; it's even worse on the computer side. There's a DSD-to-PCM WMP plugin, but I doubt very many serious computer audiophiles are using WMP as their audio player of choice.

While I'm glad you're doing DSD downloads for another label, that makes a grand total of 2 labels. I guess what I'm wondering is if DSD files will ever be something you can download and actually have a decent chance of playing across various computer or digital audio platforms. As you said, there is a decent library of SACDs that presumably have DSD or DXD master files, or it appears you have a mechanism to rip from a SACD as well. But if a DSD download is something that I have to buy a DSD recorder like the Korg or Tascam to burn discs to play on a SACD player, I might as well just buy the SACD. That kinda defeats one of the main reasons why people have music servers in the first place--they're trying to avoid having to mess around with physical media for every listening session. While I'd love to have SACD/DSD have some sort of role in the future regarding that, it doesn't appear it will.

I think it would be good to have a formal time(s) to get together and say hi. Lots to talk about and learn. This will be my 4th or 5th RMAF.

Always have a great time.

Last week from Wavelength it was 24/192 over USB. Now DSD over USB. Will it be compatible with the DSD formats, say from Korg, 1-bit/2.8224 MHz and 1-bit/5.6448 MHz? Please tell me how much and how long do I have to wait.

Gang,

We have hammered out some of the details on the DSD specification. Basically we will insert a new Sampling Frequency at 117.6K @ 24. When the computer enables this frequency by the application we will know that it is DSD data coming down. Convert the PCM DAC chip to DSD and then adjust the hardware to work as DSD in straight 2 channel x 1 bit at 2.8224 sampling rate. We have not talked about double speed.

As far as DXD is concerned, there has not been much interest there as of yet. Especially with the upcoming 32 bit architectures they should have looked at that more than increasing the sampling rate. Increasing the bit depth really has a lot more promise.

Thanks
Gordon

Love the sound of my Korg MR-1000

I have a Korg MR 2000S that I bought recently from Sweetwater to digitize my LPs. I am also using it to digitize my SACDs and DVD-As, since I have a few DVD-A tracks that could not be ripped using DVDAExplorer. I have been digitizing these to the higher quality 1-bit 5.6448 MHz format based on the feedback from others who said the digitized SACDs are indistinguishable from the originals. For the DSD formats you definitely use the Korg as a DAC but since the MR 2000S has digital inputs and outputs for the lower resolution PCM formats, I assume you can use it as a DAC too. I haven’t tried using the Korg for anything but DSD, but I have used their Audiogate software to convert the DSD files to 24 bit/176.4 kHz WAV files for playback with my other DACs and music servers.

I have not had the Korg long enough to post any reviews but I am impressed with what I have heard so far and it’s just as easy to digitize my LPs as it was years ago when I used to record LPs to tape. I suggest someone like Bruce at Puget Sound Studios could provide a more qualitative opinion of the Korg MR 2000S. Anyway that’s why I expressed interest below in the news from Wavelength Audio that some of their future DACs may support single and double speed DSD.