Magico, Merging Technologies, and Matan

Hi Chris, I wonder what's your opinion on ribbon speakers, like Magnepans for example. Have you ever heard them (any model)?

Hi Matias - I like ribbon speakers. Magnepan is actually located 20 minutes from my house and I've had lots of exposure to them. I've heard every model currently available. I like them, but to be honest they are no Q5. There is a new Magnepan 1.7 being introduced at the Show in Vegas this week.

Hi Chris,

Any "must see" products at CES that you'll be hunting down? Based on this, I'll be heading to the Magico room at the Venetian.

Thanks

Jon

Hi Jon - Check out the TAD room as well. Andrew Jones will be using a Zalman TNN300 with Mykerinos card. TAD is also presenting its new amplifiers and DAC/SACD player. dCS has a new DAC that'll be on display at the show as well.

Thanks Chris,

I wouldn't have gone to the TAD room, but definitely will now. I love their speakers, but so expensive. dCS was already on my list, but, ditto.

And check out Wadia (30 234 at the Venetian) -- they're supposed to have the new 121 on display.

And I'm sure you saw Stereophile's cover this month. It's all happening.

Jon

I'm not sure I read that right: the new PC audio card (with software) is going to cost ... $12k?

Sheesh.

You know, I have to be honest here. If this isn't actually a typo, then the fact that the card performs well is ... well ... boring. I mean, really. It's great? Wow. Shocker. And?

Let me explain:

/Begin Rant

The fact that a wine maker can make a $5000-a-bottle wine that will score well in Robert Parker's Wine Advocate is about as revelatory as the sun coming up in the East. It's great? Wow. Shocker. When we hit these price points, the real story is how a wine maker failed to make ambrosia (as in actual "Food of the Gods", not just "very tasty") for that kind of cash. What? It doesn't raise the dead, too? Fail! As my wife is so fond of saying, "at that price point, there's no magic" -- of course it's going to be good, so what? By contrast, and following the analogy a bit more, a $10 bottle that scores just as well as it's $5k sibling ... well ... now that is the true miracle and something to be sought after, celebrated and shared. More importantly/relevantly, given the sheer volume naturally occurring at that lower, more accessible price point, this is precisely where an independent and trusted reviewer is at their best and most useful -- helping to sort noise from signal -- and why and more importantly, when, Wine Advocate is such an awesome resource.

Back to audio:

Look, I'm not intending to disrespect the designers and researchers that poured their time and attention into creating wonderful product, especially product that can produce wonderful emotion and enjoyment. But honestly, who cares? Wish I could afford it! Oh well. Next!

It's like buying Automobile and finding an article about the latest shootout between an offering from Ferrari and Lamborghini. Yes, there are readers that really love that stuff. But since no one (statistically, anyway) is ever going to be buying either, what the article amounts to is the magazine equivalent of highway rubbernecking at a traffic accident -- not helpful, constructive, or useful behavior, but certainly entertaining. In a prurient kind of way.

I think this is what bugs me about Stereophile Magazine (or any of their peers, for that matter). There's very little attempt to review great product as it relates to a cost/performance curve (ironic, perhaps, given my example earlier, but this is precisely where Automobile and it's peers tend to shine).

Given that increases in performance do not keep pace with cost, and that in all likelihood the relationship is asymptotic, what you have at the top of the bar is teeny-tiny increments in performance, all of which cost exponentially larger sums of money.

The question that is begged by all these uber products: is it necessary to spend all that to get great performance? I submit that the answer is "no". But it's increasingly hard to find evidence for it in audio reviews.

Is it the case that the Magico/Merging Technologies solution is in fact the bar that others ought to be measured against? Or perhaps a dCS stack? If so, fine. But the magic is happening elsewhere.

/End Rant

Sooo many questions...

Chris, what hardware is provided by the Mykerinos 'solution'? Seems like it's simply a card.

I also didn't see what (or even if) DACs were used in your listening tests. Do they also provide the digital-to-analog conversion? Or would ultimate sound quality still be limited by the available DACs with AES inputs?

Given the Pyramix angle, are we talking about sample rates above normal ( which I consider to be up to 192 kHz) as an aspect of their solution?

thanks
clay

Hi Scot - Thanks for your honest opinion but I disagree with much of what you said. No worries though :~)

On this trip I was out to hear the best sound possible. I wasn't looking for price/performance ratio or anything else. The fact that this solution performs wonderfully is not boring to me. In fact it's incredibly exciting. Products that have nothing to do with hocus pocus and snake oil and are based on solid engineering principles are exactly what this industry needs. I'm happy to have introduced the Computer Audiophile readers to the products mentioned in the article.

As you well know it's impossible to please everyone all the time. I know several people who will purchase this solution the day it's available. These same people would have no interest in the ASUS card that is featured on the cover of Stereophile this month. That card is under $200 and it performs terribly. Outputting a bit perfect signal with that card is virtually impossible. Other cards I am considering at this time are from ESi. The Juli@ and the Maya44 are great values and I hope to bring attention to them here on CA.

The posts in the forum on this site reflect the overwhelming interest of the community here to set up high fidelity systems with computer audio components (DACs, software, storage media, and computer systems) that range in individual costs from $500 to $3000 (with few outliers). There is not a large population of threads on the topic of "I have $60K to spend on some loudspeakers--what do you recommend?"

Furthermore, what happens forward of the DAC is much more comprehensively and competently covered in other parts of the Internet and even print media. Statements such as "There isn't a single product on the market today that's capable of this level of performance." are at face value absurd. Speaker performance is inherently a subjective matter, so in the absence of objective measurements (which don't yet exist to capture the full scope of what people perceive as qualitative differences among loudspeakers), it would be much more plausible to say that these speakers are, in his personal opinion, the best that he has heard.

The majority of the home page stories here since the end of November that were not simply press releases from vendors have been for products that are irrelevant to the community here. A DAC system for >$30K, a robot for ripping CDs, a $12K sound card, and something entirely beyond the scope of value on this sight, some speakers for Kuwaiti royals.

There seems to be some money flowing into Chris's hands from somewhere to fund his airfare, lodging, and per diem to do all the traveling that he tweets about, so why not put some of those resources into adding solid information to the topics that dominate the commuity's interests.

This has been done, for example, in promulgating guidelines on ripping CDs, configuring some music servers, and setting up wireless music distribution networks. But there are major gaps in knowledge that remain and could be addressed by the effort that seems to go into rhapsodizing about esoteric components that only a handful of people will ever afford or own (lot's of wealthy people are actually frugal with their money, after all).

The following features would be of infinitely greater service to the community here than organizing trade exhibitions or more reviews of things like the dCS front end:

1. A series of DAC shootouts at various price points judged by a panel of 8-10 listeners in a double blind setting. A well organized shootout that highlights the particular strengths of the DACs (in addition to picking an overall winner based on the stated criteria) would be infinitely more valuable to everyone here than another opinion about a $20,000 anything.

2. A series of USB cable shootouts modeled on the above.

3. An objective analysis (perhaps via interviews with audio engineers who are innovators in the industry and know something about the topic) of all of the variables that go into the quality of sound produced by a computer source. There's a lot of assumption that control of jitter is the main issue and maybe RF interference in the system. There's a lot of skepticism about the possibility that there is a physical explanation for benefit from different hard drives or cables or playback software. It would be a real service if the front page stories sought out expert insight into these matters to help raise the level of discussion and put misconceptions to rest.

Those things, if done effectively, could constitute a full program for CA in 2010, and perhaps get the site back on track after having lost the plot.

Chris, have you tried a device like the Antelope DA which isolates noise from the AES output device (e.g. Lynx AES16) before going into the DAC and, if so, how would you rate the sound quality of that configuration vs the customized Mykerinos set-up you heard at Tim's place? Have you tried a device like the Weiss firewire-to-AES converter?

I have a Zalman TNN-300 with Lynx AES16 and a Berkeley Alpha DAC. I've tried the Antelope DA and the Grimm Audio CC1. The CC1, unlike the DA, actually reclocks the AES pass through AND can provide a high quality master word clock output.

In my testing I found the DA provided an immediate and notable SQ improvement. When I used the CC1 I found no significant incremental improvement over the DA, even when I used it to provide word clock into the AES16.

This says to me that the primary weakness of the AES16 is one of less than optimal noise isolation versus clocking errors. I believe Berkeley Audio shares that view.

I raise this point in this thread as I believe the Mykerinos PCI card (at a cost of over $3500) likely has much better noise isolation than the Lynx AES16 and this could be a large part of the SQ you heard.

What's your take? Also, I was curious if you had plans of ever reviewing the ULN-8/Model 4 so your readers could see where you slotted its performance versus the rest of the field?

Thanks.

Hi Clay - The solution consists of a Merging Technologies Mykerinos audio card and Merging Technologies software. The software in use right now is the Pyramix software from Merging but I think there will be a more user friendly version available in the future. The Mykerinos cards used over the last few days provided AES and world clock in/out. No digital to analog conversion. The card works with any AES capable DAC. Based on my experience I don't think this solution can be beat by any USB or FireWire interface or DAC available today.

Sample rates supported will likely be all the way to DXD. I can guarantee up to 24/192 works as I listened to several 24/192 tracks.

Hi earflappin - I haven't tried the Antelope DA or the Grimm devices yet. I've heard the Model 4 more times than I can remember. I personally like the Alpha DAC much better.

Thanks for the response Chris. What DAC's did you listen to at Tim's place? Berekeley, Model Two, ?

Those of us who have interacted with Tim and know how the extent of his experimentation with all things digital and his passion to find the best possible sound quality, will know that for him to be this excited about the Merging technology is significant. What's hard to judge of course at this point is how much of that performance can be had at a much lower price.

As I posted, I suspect a big chunk of this performance improvement can be had via a device like the DA which does AES noise isolation and other such devices, but probably not all of it looking at how well the Mykerinos has been designed and the fact that the software player and PCI card has been carefully optimized as a single solution by one company. Only though A/B testing will we know for sure. Hopefully, that can be done down the road.

In response to the other two posts bemoaning your reviews of expensive gear (dCS, Magico, Merging, etc.) I think all of us who frequent this forum need to understand this site is now your full-time job and you need to run it as a business and not a hobby. I'd like to believe that through mutual information sharing each of us can find what we're looking for on this forum and use it to zero in on where we want to be on the price/performance curve.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with us Chris. I for one like to keep abreast of leading-edge developments in a field of real interest to me... whether they're of practical relevance to me or not.

I'd also like an answer to Clay's earlier question - which DAC were you using?

Mani.

Hi xenophilic - Thanks for the honesty and well meaning comments. I always encourage discussion like this on the site. I disagree with almost everything, OK everything you said but I'm totally fine with your opinion. It didn't make me mad or anything and I like the fact that you offer your own ideas to make the site better. It's much easier to attack someone or something without offering a better method. For offerring ideas I commend you, although I don't agree with them (see below).

The Computer Audiophile community is similar to general public. The higher the price the fewer people can afford the component. Conversations on the Forum are only one part of the site. Less than 1% of the CA readers post on the forum. Again, the forum is one indicator of the interests of CA readers.

"Statements such as "There isn't a single product on the market today that's capable of this level of performance." are at face value absurd. Speaker performance is inherently a subjective matter, so in the absence of objective measurements (which don't yet exist to capture the full scope of what people perceive as qualitative differences among loudspeakers), it would be much more plausible to say that these speakers are, in his personal opinion, the best that he has heard."

Magico creates its speakers using more measurements than anything else. There are many objective measurements of the Q5 that support my opinion. Stating something on my site that I write is my own personal opinion would be as redundant as one can be.

"Furthermore, what happens forward of the DAC is much more comprehensively and competently covered in other parts of the Internet and even print media."

Multiple sources of information are always a good thing. Sony created a Compact Disc Player back in the 80s. Was there a need for other manufacturers to build CD players? I don't think anyone would say no to that question. Each audio writer has a different perspective and skill set. Many people like to read the opinions of a lot of writers on all kinds of topics.

"The majority of the home page stories here since the end of November that were not simply press releases from vendors have been for products that are irrelevant to the community here. A DAC system for >$30K, a robot for ripping CDs, a $12K sound card, and something entirely beyond the scope of value on this sight, some speakers for Kuwaiti royals."

I don't publish press releases on Computer Audiophile. Based on the site traffic statistics the articles published recently have been very popular. Site traffic has never been higher thanks to readers such as yourself. None of my statements are to be taken as a shot at you xenophilic, they are just counterpoints to your post.

The shootouts you would like to see may sound like a great service at first blush but would only serve to mislead readers. I've listened to many components in locations all around the country and the same component sounds different in every system. A shootout would be valuable only to people who live with the shootout system on which everything was tested. Also, most components take very different configurations to sound the best. It is very misleading to connect two DACs to the exact same system and call one better than the other. The results are really only valid for the complete system setup used in the test. A more realistic test would configure a system for each DAC that really makes it shine. Yet, this too would be a disservice as nobody would have the same system with the same power feed etc...

"An objective analysis (perhaps via interviews with audio engineers who are innovators in the industry and know something about the topic) of all of the variables that go into the quality of sound produced by a computer source."

This is a very valid topic and one everyone could gain from. In fact this whole site is dedicated to the variables that go into computer based audio. But, if I asked 5 engineers questions surrounding this I would get 10 different answers. I believe Positive Feedback asked 10 audio engineers these very questions and none of them totally agreed.

Hi Mani & Earflappin - Much of the listening was done via a PM Model Two. I did spend a little time with the new TAD DAC. In the future I will spend many more hours listening via an Alpha DAC in my home system.

Thanks for your comments.

I think I started reading this site shortly after it went up (referred here from another forum) and I must admit that recently I've read less and less. This is mostly because it seems that many of the products mentioned/covered/reviewed are really pushing into high 4, low 5-figure territory which is pretty rough for me. After reading some of the above comments (as well as the reviews in this post) I was ready to say "Amen brother, this place is Stereophile by another name." Now, I still read Stereophile online but I think I read it for the same reason that my wife reads things like People/Cosmo... I have chosen to cancel my subscription to Stereophile as of a couple of years ago because I felt it didn't cover any of the gear I was interested in.

So, after thinking that, I want back through the last few "pages" of CA and I must say, I still think there is a pretty good balance here on simple/cost effective solutions to getting the most out of a music server vs. reviews of multi-kilobuck products that "statistically speaking, no one is ever going to buy" (I love that line by the way!). I was shocked by 54K speakers, but absolutely blown away by a 12K sound card! Anyway...

I still think CA is a great site and worth visiting from time to time, I just hope Chris is able to maintain a balance between information/products that are available to the majority of us vs. covering the state of the art. I think there's room for both here on CA; I just hope things don't go "off the rails" in pursuit of SOTA. I think there's still a lot of us out there looking for "the best $10 bottle of wine you've ever had!"

"So, after thinking that, I want back through the last few "pages" of CA and I must say, I still think there is a pretty good balance here on simple/cost effective solutions to getting the most out of a music server vs. reviews of multi-kilobuck products that "statistically speaking, no one is ever going to buy" (I love that line by the way!). I was shocked by 54K speakers, but absolutely blown away by a 12K sound card! Anyway..."

Hi bigjppop - Thanks for looking through the site and using the facts to support your position. There really is a balance on CA. Soon I will post an article on building a music server that's incredibly inexpensive, small, and sounds wonderful. Looking only at the recently published articles is like watching the stock market and cheering or jeering every minute.

I think it's important to write about the current SOTA in computer audio... on a site called Computer Audiophile.

Hell, if Chris didn't, most readers would think that a certain $6K AD/DA converter is as good as it gets. It definitely isn't...

It's good to know how high the bar really is.

Mani.

hi chris
i have been a 'loyal' reader for a couple of years. my comments come from the position of being a 'loyal' reader of CA, who takes a multi-daily dose of your posting.
- no doubt you must secure stable advertising revenue to make a 'go' of CA; even more so now that this site has graduated from hobby to 'job'
- no doubt you have an obligation to the CA community to report on the 'state' of the CA field, without limitations on cost of purchase.
-you have established, quite obviously, a reservoir of good faith and trust from your readership.
- i think it critical for maintaining your own legitimacy that you strive to keep an appropriate distance between your advertisers products and your editorship/writing. with all due respects and without casting any doubts on the intent of your latest postings, i think those posts tread perilously close to 'fan-boy'/cheering section status. this is not to say that the products are anything other than first-rate, rather i want to raise a warning that 'cheering-section' reports are, by their nature, prone to misunderstanding by your readers and could raise responses from readers that will not be easy to calm once raised and will lead to an unnecessary and acrimonious diversion from the purpose of this 'zine. in this regard, i direct your attention to the numerous threads on AA (critics). lord knows, we don't want to move in that direction.
-remember the old canard about being "...cleaner than caesar's wife".

take care.
johnnyturbo

the quality of CA is first rate

"I think it's important to write about the current SOTA in computer audio... on a site called Computer Audiophile."

Totally agreed.

I also happen to believe that the single most important characteristic Chris provides here is an environment where people can share their opinions (respectfully) - without fear of retribution due to disagreement with Chris' view, and/or without fear of being shouted down by those that take a different position.

"Hell, if Chris didn't, most readers would think that a certain $6K AD/DA converter is as good as it gets. It definitely isn't..."

My comments above are especially appropriate for the topic Mani points to here - i.e., the ULN-8/Model Four versus Berkeley Alpha 'debate', as it were.

Chris clearly prefers the Alpha, but does little more than state the Alpha as 'his' preference 'in his system'.

"It's good to know how high the bar really is."

Well, I think perhaps dCS have the high bar staked out already!

Re the certain $6k AD/DA, in my opinion, the issue is that some believe it is in another league than the Alpha and for nearly the exact same price (when you factor in the cost of the obligatory Lynx card for the Alpha). IOW, not necessarily that it's the best there is, but just the best value for those that are already in the game for $5k.

:)

Even for fans of the "certain $6k AD/DA" (who might believe it is another level up from the Alpha), I guess it's good to know that a $24K plus combo is required to bring digital sound up to a new level. I'm referring to the Mykerinos / PM Model Two combo, of course, and assuming, perhaps wrongly, that a Model Two would go for as little as $12k used.

absolutely no disrespect intended,
clay

PS, Mani, should you ever decide to, uhm,...oh, never mind, not gonna happen. ;)

Just to add my two cents to the discussion, I think it is incredibly important for you to go out and find the best performing components out there as regards a complete computer audiophile setup. Since most of us won't hear 100k systems often, if ever, I think it is all that more valuable for a reviewer to get perspective on just what is possible. Plus, I for one always enjoy reading about things that I can't afford if only to drool and dream.

Having said that, I would like to see you take a look at some more budget minded components and hear your thoughts about where they stack up next to the big boys. I'm also not sure I quite agree about your statement in regards to a gear shoot out or even simple gear comparison. While I think most of us are mature enough to understand that your (or anyone else's) opinions on gear would be both subjective and highly system dependent, I think such comparisons are still valuable as many of us won't be able to hear the amount of gear that you can round up.

If you were to then add your thoughts as to system matching and building up a proper system that would be even more fantastic and just icing on the cake. I know I'd love to see a budget usb dac comparison (hrt streamer, v-dac, devilsound, hiface) and maybe some talk about computer audio headphone systems, but regardless this continues to be a great source of information.

"I for one always enjoy reading about things that I can't afford if only to drool and dream."
Hey, that's me too! :D

@Chris -- appreciate you're taking my comments as intended and not as being in anyway a personal attack or an indictment of your site, your job, or your personal and professional choices.

You must know that we all envy the hell out of you. Lucky bastard!

That said, there are some very large gaps in the current crop of audio review outlets out there -- gaps that I think you might be in a rather unique position to help address. Your mission, should you choose to accept it ....

Oh, and just for the record, I'm not interested in budget performers. I'm interested in uber performers that just happen to be value priced. As I said, these are the "diamonds in the rough". If that means that the best sound possible is available for a mere $50k, then, so be it.

But there is a value in reviewing such products -- as a metric. That is, the bar has to be set somewhere high, otherwise every great product you run across will be the "best thing you've ever heard". I mean, there's only so many times you can say "Well, this one goes to 11".

A dealer I've worked with in the recent past described audio reproduction as an exercise doomed to mediocrity (my words) -- that is, when referencing Dave Clark's Big Question (what is the point when building an audio system) the best you're going to be able to do is 80% of live music's 100%. Pretty damning, IMO, if your goal is to recreate live music, no? But if you're after "the best you can get", well, the job is a little different. Anyway, by hitting the high point w/ the Magico, the dCS and all their price-peers, you now know what it is you're shooting for.

But this assumes that there is some measure of standardization of review. That is, that comparing one component's performance to another's is a valid approach. This of course relies upon the notion that some measure of objectivity can be injected into the process. I am afraid that I have to disagree with your view that shootouts (or by extension, simple comparisons) are inherently unfair or misleading -- quite the contrary, I feel that no other review methodology is worthwhile. Without reference to a scale or metric or bar, no review comments can be taken as having any relevance. It can't all be relative, else we would have nothing at all to talk about with such passion!

And in case I haven't mentioned it, this site is a lot of fun. And the passionate contribution of it's locals is in large part what differentiates it from its more staid peers. Thanks Chris!

More later ....

“There isn't a single product on the market today that's capable of this level of performance.” Chris, I enjoy your work, but I assume you did something similar to what a colleague of mine did and went to hear many of the contenders in their ideal environments: http://www.ultraaudio.com/opinion/20090801.htm. You would have to add Kharma Grand, Focal Grand, Dynaudio Master, Gryphon Poseidon, and a number of others, to be able to even approach validity with your statement. Please don’t turn into Jonathan Valin – we need objectivity and good sense on this great site.

Hi Scot - Thanks for the kind words and your well thought out opinion. I can say this: I now have a new reference to which I can compare future products and systems. At CES this week I will be comparing everything to the sound I heard in the Bay Area last week. This reference system does not really help when I publish reviews of products like the Peachtree Nova (coming very soon) which sells for a bit over $1k and is not designed to be a reference product.

I agree there are diamonds in the rough. I get just as excited to bring the readers information about those products as I do the very expensive products. To some people the $5k Alpha DAC is a giant-killer in price to performance category. Sure $5k isn't cheap, but it's reasonable in this hobby.

Based on your response, and others, maybe we should create a forum thread about head to head reviews and shootouts. Not that I have a desire to participate in a shootout, but I will certainly participate in the discussion.

Hi Randall - Thanks for commenting. Please don't take the following response personally. Let's meet up at CES and chat if anything I say is offensive :~)

I stand behind my opinion 100%. The Q5 is the best loudspeaker on the market today. I'm willing to bet you have opinions on the best loudspeaker, DAC, cable, etc... I don't feel the need to qualify every statement I make with the typical audiophile review speak (not aimed at you or anyone specific). In my dCS review I did use a qualifier such as, "Best DAC I've heard in my system." That's only because it was 100% truthful. The Magico Q5 doesn't need a qualifier in my opinion. I think manufacturers who produce the best gear should be rewarded with the superlatives to match. Not every speaker can be the best. I'm willing to take the heat for my opinion.

"You would have to add Kharma Grand, Focal Grand, Dynaudio Master, Gryphon Poseidon, and a number of others, to be able to even approach validity with your statement."

Not so. If you're going to add the above speakers then you must add every speaker in every manufacturer's line no matter what the price and even speakers made my readers at home. With every statement in every context in life there are a certain number of assumptions one must make. Thus one doesn't have to experience every thing in the world to have an opinion and make a bold statement.

Again, nothing personal Randall.

Well if anyone wants to hear what Mykerinos cards/Pyramix workstation can really do, we'll be at the Venitian 29-335 playing DSD and up to 384kHz files from assorted labels.
We'll be using DAD AX24 and Meitner/EMM Labs converters.

Regards,

Bruce - Hopefully you read the article and realize this solution is a highly configured Mykerinios card with Pyramix software. It's really not like the rig you may have on display at CES. If people really want to here the solution I'm talking about they can visit the TAD and Magico rooms.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems pretty clear that all Chris is expressing, and can express, is a personal opinion as to what he considers to be the "best" speaker, DAC, server, etc. he's heard. He's not stating a fact, its an opinion.

It's up to us to weigh that opinion based on a variety of factors including the universe of equipment he's heard, business motivations, etc.. Whenever you have an advertising revenue based forum or publication you are going to have these issues. Buyer beware.

I remember last year when Jonathin Valin declared the Magico M5 the best speaker he had ever heard. Others contend the Wilson Alexandria is the "best". I heard the M5, Alexandria and Rockport Altair back-to-back in a controlled environment and easily preferred the Altair. Then I listened to the Geddes Summa and Abbey speakers and to my ear they outperformed all three at a fraction of the price and in "real world" rooms. What's "best" in an ultimately subjective hobby like high end audio will always come down to opinions and opinions typically have a bias.

Earflappin says:
"Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems pretty clear that all Chris is expressing, and can express, is a personal opinion as to what he considers to be the "best" speaker, DAC, server, etc. he's heard. He's not stating a fact, its an opinion."

I couldn't agree more.

I'll also state my opinion that this expectation some seem to have that Chris' should review gear head-to-head (in all manner of combinations) as some sort of final arbiter is surprising, and rather unfair expectation-wise.

This seems especially true in computer audiophiledom, where more and more we learn that the setup & configuration of the source system has a significant impact on the sound emanating from the DAC, and overall system. IOW, unless your source - and downstream components, for that matter - are set up the same as Chris', your results will likely be different.

clay

While I totally agree with earflappin as well, I don't think asking for gear comparisons is really unfair. Just like I value your opinion on the gear you've heard, I also value Chris's opinion as someone who has heard a wide variety of systems (far more than I ever will). I think most people come here looking for help on what components to buy/ how to set up their systems. If I go to a dealer I'm limited to comparing the gear they have on hand. There is no way I'd be able to gather up several dac's to compare in my own system, so I'm limited to doing research and then having a little bit of faith.

I think most manufacturers set out to make the best sounding gear they can and I'm sure Chris reviews gear that interests him, thus many pieces of gear he listens to get the thumbs up. But when it comes time to pull the trigger and buy something even a subjective comparison from a trusted source is more valuable than a list of components that all sound good and have similar functionality. Sure my system won't sound exactly like yours, but building your system to sound its best is I think what this is all about.

@Clay, et al.,

I think it's a truism that all reviews are in fact opinions. Does that have to be the case? Or is there another way to go? I submit that there ought to be.

No review I've ever seen ever takes a recording of a transient waveform and compares that to another sample when a component has been swapped out/in. The two waveforms then would be "diff'ed" to show what, if any, changes have occurred and are therefore attributable to the components being compared. Note that this would require a comparison, but the results would be as objective as I can imagine, but then, I'm not terribly creative.

As far as the variability of system performance, well, "synergy" is a real PITA. How can we possibly remove the impact of great or poor synergy? Well, it turns out, this is a trivial problem to solve. The answer? Statistical sampling.

My solution is to take a variety of reviewers, have them all rate against the same bar, but with whatever reference gear they prefer. The more variation here the better, as the point of this would be to collect as much data as possible. Have each reviewer rate along the same scale or with the same chart or whatever. Tabulate the results and post the comparisons. This would generate a large set notes that would, I'd hope, point out the strengths or weaknesses of each piece of gear with a large variety of systems.

I think this would only work with a/b comparisons, and having the team reviewing doing all the same a/b comparisons. Should shed some serious light on "synergy" and "resolution" and all manner of other things. And also provide a great deal of useful info to all manner of interested parties ....

The closest example I'm aware of, and it's probably not that close, was the blind testing done by the ULN-8 beta testers against a number of the ULN-8's top competitors (8 or more of them, as I recall).

I wasn't involved in it, so don't know the specifics other than what is mentioned above, and that the ULN-8 came out on top.

Scot says:
"How can we possibly remove the impact of great or poor synergy? Well, it turns out, this is a trivial problem to solve. The answer? Statistical sampling."

I'd suggest that the optimal way to solve the synergy issue is to test the gear on one's own system. This has the additional advantage that it is within ones' own power/resources to make it happen. Admittedly not always a simple task, it seems orders of magnitude easier to pull off than getting the type of panel you describe to do enough listening to provide statistically valid results.

just my two cents,

clay

What os is the Matan server running? Also any pics?

Jesus R
www.sonore.us

Hi Jesus - I believe the official version of the Matan server runs a highly customized embedded Unix OS. The server I saw this week was in the final chassis but ran Windows XP for the Mykerinos card and Pyramix software.

I'll take some photos at CES in the Magico room.

Chris, - I applaud the updates on the new Computer Audio kit, such is a real reason I frequent this site. Now your quip, on the new dCS DAC led to a bit of sleuthing with the following uncovered, ex the CES website:

"dCS will be introducing their new Debussy digital-to-analog converter. Housed in the sleek U-Clock chassis, Debussy features a wide array of inputs, including dCS' patent-pending asynchronous USB, as well as traditional S/PDIF and AEB/EBU. An LED-based display indicates active input, sample rate, and volume level. The control board and Ring DAC are derived from those in the Paganini DAC, with variable output of either 2V or 6V available on either XLR balanced or RCA unbalanced analog connectors.

Curious range that dCS now has...I really begin to wonder what the substantive audio/musical/sonic differentiation is between the Debussy, Paganini, and Scarlatti DAC's....be interested if you could find out more on how dCS sees the relative merits

Chris, I highly doubt that the Mykerinos card that you heard is any better than what's available to the mastering engineers worldwide. Hell... it can't even do DSD/DXD... what does that tell you? Just as Amarra isn't any better than a Sonic Solutions or NexStage system.

Besides, have you actually worked with and listened to a DSD/DXD Pyramix system at any length in YOUR system?

$12,000 can get you a Sonoma system AND Mytek converter!

Regards,

Chris Connaker: "I've heard the Model 4 more times than I can remember. I personally like the Alpha DAC much better."

Chris, since you've heard the Model 4 (ULN-8) in several environments, you must have an impression of its salient characteristics. Can you share that with us?

Even if you've never heard the Model 4 in your own system, if you've heard some characteristics that tend to persist in several environments, that's quite meaningful since those characteristics have a high likelihood of manifesting in other people's systems.

Thanks!

"PS, Mani, should you ever decide to, uhm,...oh, never mind, not gonna happen. ;)"

Not sure what's "not gonna happen"... BUT...

If you mean using my Model Two for a shootout between it and a ULN8... you're right - I have no interest whatsoever in doing this. This could only ever end up being a promotion for the ULN8, which, let's face it, doesn't really need any more on this site ;-)

If you mean selling it... you're definitely right - over my dead body!

Mani.
PS If you ever find a Model Two going for $12K, let me know.

Dear Clay:

If you do not mind me inquiring;

1 what microphones do you own?
2. what microphone preamps do you own?
3. how many mics do you generally use for a recording?
4. what type of music do you record and in what type of venues?
5. which plug-in(s), if any, do you use.

I am curious to learn more about your music background.

Regards,

Tim Marutani
Emeryville, CA

Chris, you said, "If people really want to here the solution I'm talking about they can visit the TAD and Magico rooms."

Will people be able to hear the Matan server, Pyramix software, Mykerinos card and PM Model Two in these rooms?

Do you know what amplification they will use?

Mani.

Lately I have not been contributing to the forums as often as I have in the past. However, Chris, this very interesting article regarding the Merging Technologies Mykerinos Audio Card was just too good to pass by. I am a little lost as to exactly who is who in this new product venture.

Okay, Merging Technologies is located outside Geneva, Switzerland and basically described as a Software Company specializing in Audio/Visual software applications, and writing code for ASIC boards. Mykerinos and Pyramix are trademarked brand names of Merging Technologies. This is a well established company in the professional audio/visual industry.

Marutani Consulting claims to be an audio retail operation located in Emeryville, California and owned by Tim Marutani. Their website is currently under construction without any information but has posted a phone number, fax and e-mail address, but no street address.

The Audio Salon seems also to be a retailer of high end components (primarily MBL), has a website with a single toll free number and no known address, and the only name associated with the company is the proprietor Maier Shadi who is not mentioned on the website but is located somewhere in the vast area of southern California.

Reiff Audio is a completely unknown entity working with Merging Technologies and has already awarded dealerships to Marutani Consulting and The Audio Salon in exchange for their beta testing services. So exactly who is Reiff Audio? Who are the principles, Where are they located, and exactly What does the company do?

Please let me know if I’m reading your breaking news correctly or not. You fly across country to the San Francisco Bay area to check out a new PCI audio board based on the established Pyramix software and Mykerinos ASIC audio board. The board and software are being reconfigured for the high end consumer market by the totally unknown Reiff Audio. You listen to the product in a Zalman TNN300 (which is an empty black box) running Windows XP (two generation old operating system) and post a photo of the Mykerinos 64 channel audio editing board which has no outputs. The product will be available for ~$12,000 from only two dealerships - audio retailers without any known physical address.

So, Chris, what is the real story here?

I completely understand your enthusiasm to explore the cutting edge of what is available in computer audio technology, and to establish benchmarks for your readers. I actually look forward to reading your excellent articles. But somehow this article reads like “psst, hey buddy, take a look, I have an audio card for you right here in my jacket.” From the facts presented it has all the tell tale indicators of a fly-by-night operation. I cannot speak for everyone else here, but I am not naive enough to hand over $12,000 to someone on the other side of the country with no known address.

Daphne

“With every statement in every context in life there are a certain number of assumptions one must make.”

No offense taken Chris, and thanks. Your statement above is the clarification I needed. You “assume” it is the best, which is by definition all you could do since you have not heard the other, equally ambitious loudspeakers. I won’t be at CES this year, but will buy you a beer at the next show.

My 'not gonna happen' was of the 'over my dead body' variety, as you surmised.

I'm not a big believer in shoot-outs, given that they are very installation specific, and that the 'results' seem to be taken (by most) all out of proportion to their actual relevance/importance, IMO.

re my $12k comment, I did say 'if one can be had for as little as $12k'. I only used that number as a guess, given that it made the math of the Mykerinos / Model two combo FOUR times the price of a ULN-8. :)

all the best in 2010,
clay

Hi Daphne - I assure you this is no fly by night operation. Tim and Maier were co-sponsors of the CA Symposium and run well established businesses. I prefer not to speak for them so I'll ask them to respond to your skepticism. I know Tim and Maier have many customers who browse CA and hopefully they can respond as well.

Trust me I have no interest in fly by night anything.

1 what microphones do you own?

Sennheiser MKH-30, MHK-40, MHK-20; a figure-8, cardiod, and omni, respectively, are my primary mics. I also have a Core Sound High End Binaural setup of matched DPA 4060s that I recently purchased for actual music recording in semi-stealth mode. And finally a pair of handmade Telinga EM-23s (very low noise, small omnis) from Klas Sandberg in Sweden, he of Telinga parabolic mic fame.

2. what microphone preamps do you own?

I use only portable mic preamps. My first, and smallest, is Sound Devices MP-2, later a Grace Lunatec V3 (bought from Kavi Alexander, who had it custom built with a high gain mode and a mid-side switch), and finally I have the ULN-2, which I rarely actually record with since it's the largest of the three and also requires a computer.

3. how many mics do you generally use for a recording?

Only two. Normal setup is Middle-Side matrix using the MKH-30 with either the 40, or the 20 as the Middle mic. Or either of the pair of omnis, of course. I need to put together an Ambisonic mic setup which would require additional mics, but designed as single point source. I also own the Zoom H2, a hand held recorder with (low quality) built-in 4 channel mics, which can record in surround sound, and be decoded with an Ambisonic(-like) plug-in.

4. what type of music do you record and in what type of venues?

I rarely record music, preferring to record the sounds found naturally in nature, which puts extreme pressure on the quality of gear given the low levels I'm attempting to record. Think, preamps running near full out as a matter of course.

5. which plug-in(s), if any, do you use.

Don't normally use much in the way of plug-ins, although I hope to be able to use more of the available Ambisonics plug-ins if I can ever get a proper Ambisonic mic setup sorted out.

Any more questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

And keep up the great work advancing the SOTA. I"d love to visit, but am across the country. Perhaps in 2010, I'll be out your way.

Cheers,
clay

Mani - That exact combination should be in use in the Magico room. The TAD room will not use a Model Two or a Matan server, but will use everything else.

For all those who manage to hear the Magico room (especially), please post your thoughts...

Mani.

Ordinarily, I would have shared a dose of your skepticism... were it not for the fact that people will be able to hear these products for themselves this week. Unfortunately, not me :-(

As a result of writting what he has, Chris has actually stuck his neck out quite a bit... don't you think?

Mani.

Chris, here's another new speaker to check out at CES.

Brian Cheney of VMPS will be introducing "A new concept: the Live Music Reproducer."

See the links below for more info.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=75909.0

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=75905.0

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=73700.0

I met Tim a number of months ago when I purchased a Lynx card from him. As he lives about ten miles from me I’ve been able to get together with him on a few occasions to A/B various setups.
For reference, my setup consists of Zalman, Lynx, Berkeley Audio, into a Conrad Johnson CT-5, VTL 450 monoblocks and Wilson Sophia speakers. I use XXHE for software. My benchmark CD player is a Spectral 4000.
I’ve had as a goal in computer audio to be able to sell the Spectral, and correspondingly the cj preamp, but I’m a stickler for sound quality and my music server had never achieved the same level of refinement.
I have not heard Tim’s Pyramix setup in my system so I cannot say that it beats the Spectral. I did however take my server to his shop and A/B’d it to his Pyramix setup and the superiority of his sound quality was immediately obvious. The detail, refinement, and ease had mine beat hands-down. Tim was using a Pacific Microsonics Model Two which is, of course, a loftier DAC than the Alpha, so I new I had to hear the Pyramix in my system, but I had a strong hunch that a Pyramix solution was in my future. After CES, Tim will get the Alpha working and let me hear how it sounds.
At that time I heard Tim’s setup I anticipated the cost was in the five thousand dollar range – big chunk of change, but if it allowed me to sell the Spectral and the CJ, I’d be ahead of the game financially. If the cost is really $12,000 it will take more thought. It’s funny, though, the dichotomy between hi-fi and computer pricing. If I was willing to stump up for sound quality at my audio store, why should I be any less willing for computer-based audio? I’ll hold that thought until I hear the Pyramix in my system.
I do want to add my thoughts about Tim. As I said, I bought the Lynx card from him, but I feel my relationship with him now is as a mentor and friend. I have a ton of respect for the sound he has been able to achieve. He is clearly on a quest to get the best possible sound he can out of a computer-based system. When I’ve been antsy to upgrade to his then current configuration, he has always told me to wait because there was more work for him to do before he felt he had achieved a plateau that I could move to without the near-term risk of wanting to upgrade to a new and improved level of sound. I think he has a ton of integrity and I consider myself lucky to have him as a resource.

I'm extremely interested to hear about developments that advance the SOTA even if I have to wait for them to become available in products that I can afford.

interesting point...

"Chris has actually stuck his neck out quite a bit... don't you think?"

I don't see it as much "sticking his neck" out as "showing his hand", i.e., his preferences in a reference system.

Although I guess there is a bit of a 'sticking his neck out aspect' to even that, e.g., those who disagree with his choice of 'reference' products might be disinclined to respect his opinions on other things (in a worst case scenario), and/or devalue his reviews of 'competing' products, or even design philosophies.

One would hope this would not be the case given that quite a number of different products are capable of 'reference' caliber playback, and one can only choose a single reference system, yes?

I've not yet seen Chris suggest that he believes his preferences are some sort of absolute statement, although his exuberance for the new Magicos admittedly comes closer than I've seen to date. :)

At the end of the day, none of us should take Chris' opinion to be more important than one's own. Neither should we imagine that he is trying to impose his opinion on anyone here.

clay

With all due respect, and great deference to Chris, I have avoided the "this is the best there is" statements for a long time. When I was at the Symposium there was a pair of Magico M5's used for the demos and comparisons. I didn't care for them. I actually greatly preferred Keith Johnson's limited bandwidth, low output MDF boxed speakers that he used for monitoring. I was told that the room was very difficult, which I accept. In another venue I might have been as enthusiastic about them as Chris.

My point is that it is impossible, for me at least, to overlook the synergy involved between other components, room, and listener tastes. I have heard Wilson Alexandria's in David Wilson's home. As you can imagine, they sounded glorious. I have also heard them in contexts where there were not as good. It certainly doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the speakers, just context.

I sometimes am absolutely convinced of what a client should buy, only do to an in-home demo and discover that they are not so good with his system, his room, or don't match his tastes (or hers). Women have a wonderful tendency to listen to the music rather than the gear. Sexist statement but it seems to be true to a large degree.

So, please, no offense, Chris. I absolutely accept that it is a great speaker and that it sounded wonderful. I do have to quibble with the absolute nature of your statement. Having said that, I will indulge in my own abolute statement; I have never heard a perfect speaker and don't believe it exists. Perhaps this is the one. Perhaps...

See you at CES. You have my permission to throw something at me.

Rick

Rick

Hi Rick - Of course no offense taken :~)

I'm willing to take heat for making a bold statement of my opinion. If I would have said the Q5 loudspeakers are the best I've heard on a Tuesday in Berkeley, CA that would also have been the truth. Instead I elected to state my opinion without hesitation or qualifications. If I would have used qualifications I would have irked the other half of the CA readers who are looking for a writer willing to say what he really thinks. I could have written this article like most of the mainstream audio press but that would have been a compromise selling the loudspeaker short and selling myself short. I'm totally fine with my decision to call this one like I see it.

I wonder what readers would have thought if I didn't like the speaker but made everyone read between the lines by beating around the bush with evasive statements.

You can't please everyone all the time :~)

See you in a few days Rick.

Dear Daphne:

If you wish further information regarding my industry background, by all means, please contact me @ 510-652-1911 knowing that I travel to the CES tomorrow mid-day via ground transportation to deliver analogue tape machines, (they don't travel well via normal freight methods).

After our conversation, please feel free to post your observations knowing in advance I have signed several non-disclosure agreements with various manufacturers throughout the industry.

As for Aaron Reiff of Reiff Audo, I met Aaron about 9 years ago conducting cinema audio research with Jerry Steckling, (presently
www.JSXAudio.com), at Skywalker Ranch in Novato, CA. At that time, Aaron was the engineer of the scoring stage responsible for the recordings for film.

Maier Shadi of The Audio Salon and I met through one of the founders of Berkeley Audio Design, Michael Ritter, a couple of years ago. Since our first meeting I have met Maier's family and parents.

I met Chris Connaker through one of my customers. It doesn't take a rocket scientist when one of my customers refers me to information sources.

I hope this helps give you a better understanding and I hope to hear from you via telephone shortly.

Best regards,

Tim Marutani
Emeryville, CA

"... I did however take my server to his shop and A/B’d it to his Pyramix setup..."

Were you using Tim's PM Model Two for this A/B?

If so, I hope that for all 16/44.1 material you had XXHE on your Zalman set to Quad Arc Prediction and the Model Two set to 176.4K. My understanding is that when set to 176.4K, the Model Two is non-oversampling, which is exactly what Quad Arc Prediction in XXHE wants to see to do its magic (and it really is magic!).

But thinking about it, I bet you used RR 24/176.4 material in the first place...

Mani.

Dear Clay:

Thank you very much taking time out to give me a background! If we do have the pleasure of meeting, please remember everything I do here comes from the perspective of playback.

Hopefully our paths can cross sooner than later as time passes by very quickly in this day and age.

Best regards,

Tim Marutani
PS I hope you are not allergic to cat hair or dander.

After installing and listening using the Merging Technologies hardware I/O, I said to myself from day one and disseminated to everyone around me, the challenge will be to identify how much can be translated using alternative digital configurations. As I have customers that own Pacific Microsonics Model Ones and Twos, there is no translation loss.

This is not the answer to cancer but certainly may be considered an excellent reference point along with attending a performance of the Berlin Philharmonic @ Disney Hall and referencing to the sound of a 1/2", 1/2 track analogue tape machine.

There was no time available to undergo experiments other than to amass re-clocking devices, word clock DAs, master word clocks, and other digital distribution systems in an attempt to reduce noise. Most of my gear is now in transit to the show. This being said, the TAD room will be using a main stream SACD player/DAC along with one of the four computers housing Merging Technologies hardware. Thus an example of the "real world".

A completely other mission will be testing using alternative and mainstream DACs. For those individuals I have the pleasure to know and happen to live near my facility, the testing will begin in there home using their system and their reference points.

Who really knows where this will go but there are brilliant programmers willing to take the ball from this point forward and I do believe the hardware is stellar and the playback I am experiencing is very good.

I truly hope this information helps place things into a more proper perspective.

Respectfully,

Tim Marutani
Emeryville, CA

"As I have customers that own Pacific Microsonics Model Ones and Twos, there is no translation loss."

Tim, what exactly do you mean? Do you mean not being able to distinguish between an analogue source and a digital copy made with these machines?

FWIW, at 24/176.4K rates, I can't...

Mani.

I took Tim's comment to mean that the advantages of using the Mykerinos were not "lost in translation" by use of a less resolving/revealing DAC.

IOW, are the results of the Mykerinos as dramatic for most DACs, or more so for the PM devices.

clay

Dear Mani and Clay:

Happy new year and hope you are well. English is not my first language and many times my thoughts are far too rapid than my ability to communicate.

What I was trying to say was the odds of a Pacific Microsonics owner coming to a similar conclusion as I are far greater as the DAC issue is on same playing field. In other words. it greatly reduces variables.

I have conducted listening tests at three different locations using three different loudspeakers and electronics compliments and have consistent results. I use the term consistent as at one location 176.4k playback was questionable but when I returned to my facility revisited the files transferred into my DAW using a G5 - Lynx - Amarra I found only iTunes would play the file and the HDCD flag disappeared. Oh yes, three different Model Twos. Btw, really enjoy the G5 - Lynx - Amarra rig as well.

What I hear using the Model Two and Merging hardware are spacial cues that are exceptional. As I compare digital playback to analogue I begin to recognize similarities between the two formats.

There is a sense or relaxation when listening, even for 10 continuous hours. As we all know, nothing is even close to perfect. I do believe I may be able to identify the sound of DSP but who knows.....? I can identity the sound of digital halo within a heart beat.

The playback does have similarities of the presentation of an orchestra in a good sounding venue. Which row in the venue is another story. As in attending a live performance, I do not find myself fidgeting searching for another track or riding the volume control. I suspect it is a result of lowering noise or at least redistributing the noise.

I hope this helps.

Best regards,

Tim Marutani
Emeryville, CA

thanks....that's what I expected!

Jesus R
www.sonore.us

Hi Tim,

So, with the Merging software/hardware and the Model Two you hear "spacial cues that are exceptional". And your point about 'translation' was indeed (as Clay correctly surmised) concerned with whether this sound would be 'translated' (or reproduced) in other people's setups. You've already concluded that setups with PM Model Ones and Twos DO reproduce this sound intact, but you will now explore the results with other DACs.

Got it. Thanks for taking the time to help me understand what you meant.

BTW, I'm really impressed with your scientific approach to all this - is what you're 'measuring' (subjectively in this case, I guess) reproducible in other similar systems? Cool.

Mani.

"With all due respect, and great deference to Chris, I have avoided the "this is the best there is" statements for a long time. When I was at the Symposium there was a pair of Magico M5's used for the demos and comparisons. I didn't care for them."

Having heard Magicos several times over the last few years at various events, I have to agree, but I'm still greatly looking forward to hearing the Q5s at CES. The V3s have been the only Magicos that ever wowed me, but I will happily report back on what I think of this year's presentation.

Exciting times indeed!

Cool stuff Chris, thanks once again for keeping us in the bleeding edge if digital playback!

Damn, a pressurized server, I am going to have to breakout the welder and get to work on all those pretty holes in the G5!

Cool stuff, so does Matan ever plan on trying that new Swiss sound card? Sounds like a match made in heaven.

Wonder if Magico plans on coming to RMAF 2010?

Its probably worth noting that Magico's demo room has been acoustically treated, therefore I'm not surprised that the speakers sounded good.

Setup of speakers in a room is the most challenging thing, and most rooms that us audiophiles have are woefully inadequate to do justice to the level of equipment we use.

I sometimes wonder if audio enthusiasts will be having exactly the same discussions in 50 or 100 years from now.

One or two contributors have already referred to the fact that the performance of any loudspeaker is room-dependant, so there isn't a "best speaker": there is only a best speaker for a particular room, and, given that life is short and most of us have limited opportunity to try different speakers, the likelihood is that we will never find the best for our own listening room. That doesn't that we can't find something that is (merely) very good, and maybe we should just be happy with that.

And, as to the (stratospherically expensive) state of the art in general , it is interesting to read about it, but, given that even the best is not perfect, it is really only worth considering if you can afford to discard it when something better comes along. Of course, what is expensive to you might not seem so bad to me, and vice versa, so the point at which you are willing to discard an item might be different too.

Meanwhile, again, I'll stick with the very good, and leave "the best" to others.

And perhaps have a little look at room correction systems? :)

Many examples exist and they are the only way I have found of adequately 'treating a room' and getting those uber expensive speakers to start giving of their best! My TACT makes my cheap and nasty Martin Logans sound almost hi-fi! You never know, instead of not buying the Q5's you would be able to choose something else not to buy!

Me, I'm saving up not to buy that soundcard!

Everyone seems to be on a roll here which suggests great things and discussions for the rest of the year (a sure sign of optimism). I don’t mean to hijack this thread but since I may have the ears of several readers I can’t resist.

Hi Earflappin – its seems that you have a pretty good system and ample budget, so why are you using Win7 with XXHighEnd when the general feedback is that Vista and XXHE is sonically superior?

Hi Bruce – thanks to some favorable posts from you and others I picked up a Korg MR2000s. I am thoroughly enjoying it and wondering if adding an external clock will take it to a higher level, say one of the Antelope or other reclockers. Or would that be a waste since I am primarily using the Korg to digitize vinyl to 1-bit/5.6 MHz DSD (even though I am dabbling with using it as a PCM DAC)?

Hi Mani and Clay – I’d sure like to see a shootout between the Pacific Microsonics Model Two and the Metric Halo ULN-8. I thought I would be happy with the Berkeley Audio Alpha DAC and I almost bought one until I got the impression from others that it’s not sonically in the same league with the Model Two. So what’s the sense and for now I decided to jump off the DAC merry-go-round in the futile pursuit of sonic perfection so I could explore other things (such as digitzing vinyl) and just enjoy the hardware that I have (and is paid for). My current thinking for a future DAC is either the DAD AX24 or a future Wavelength Audio DAC if Gordon decides it will support 1/5.6 MHz DSD.

Hi Daphne – you’ve been missed. I hope you find more time this year to contribute to the CA forums.

Hi Chris – happy hunting in Vegas and keep us posted.

"I thought I would be happy with the Berkeley Audio Alpha DAC and I almost bought one until I got the impression from others that it’s not sonically in the same league with the Model Two."

Well, if your main criterion is to get something sonically in the same league, you'll never buy a new DAC ;-)

Mani... being just a little factious.

Don't let Mani try to suck you into that Model 2 cult following. There are several DAC's that will equal or surpass that antiquated technology.

Playback Designs
DAD AX24
EMM Labs DAC8IV
Lavry DA924

If you're just using one of these external DACs, there's no need for external clock. We've tried everything from Crystal to Rubidium... none change for the better.

Regards,

This 'antiquated' technology produces the RR 24/176.4 recordings... probably the finest hi-def available today.

There's a reason why Model Twos were used at the Computer Audiophile symposium, and why Matan/Merging/Magico will use them this week...

Nuff said.

[EDIT: You forgot to mention your BS server in the list ;-)]

Mani.

Thanks for the VERY interesting article, Chris, but it seems “over-the-top”, especially with regards to the Magico. Of course, I believe you when you say it’s the best you’ve ever heard (and maybe I’d agree if I heard it). But I find it not credible that the speaker is a "new paradigm". I just don’t see anything that is radically different about this design. YG (and others?) does metal enclosures, albeit not the way Magico does. Others have beryllium tweeters. The other Magico drivers don’t seem especially different from what other manufacturers are doing. What’s in the cross-over that is so new? It seems the Q is more of a case of an exceptionally well executed design. I’d find your report more credible if you would have instead said “the Magico is best design I’ve heard/know of”.

If I had an unlimited budget, I’d probably want to hear the Magico but I’d also want to hear stuff like the Vandersteen 7, Avalon Isis, and TAD Reference One. Perhaps I’d conclude that the Magico was “best”, but I can’t imagine it would be head and shoulders better. It's not like these other designers are idiots or are resting on laurels of past glory.

BTW, I really enjoy Computer Audiophile – please don’t become the next Valin!

OK, not my thread but I officially (unofficially, actually) call a time out!

Rick

"antiquated technology"

Newer isn't always better, is just has the opportunity to be...

Hi Beetlemania - Thanks for the comments. I have heard the Vandersteen 7, Avalon Isis, and TAD Reference One. All great speakers, but no Q5 in my opinion.

"t's not like these other designers are idiots or are resting on laurels of past glory."

You are 100% correct for the most part. Andrew Jones of TAD is a fabulous designer and has created excellent speakers. I actually listened to the Compact Reference on Wednesday for a while. Andrew will be using the Mykerinios card and Zalman music server this year at CES. I may be a bit biased because the case will have the CA logo on it :~)

"BTW, I really enjoy Computer Audiophile – please don’t become the next Valin!"

Thanks very much for the kind words and logical disagreement. No worries about becoming anyone else :~)

Hi Machinehead - Thanks for the post. Magico will be using a Matan server with the Swiss card this year. These guys have the option of using any equipment in the world and they're going with the Mykerinos.

"The best there is " statements without qualifiers and context sets - particularly with respect to speakers, given room intereactions and upstream equipment impacts - should be avoided.

To take from first hand experience. I spent a most choice day auditioning speakers in the $30-$45k range, to wit the Magico V3, Rockport Aquila & Ankaa, and Verity Audio Parsifal in a well treated demonstration room. To reduce independent variables, room acoustics, upstream equipment and music selections were essentially constant.

Suffice I went into the audition process expecting to be duly impressed, if not blown away, by the Magico. To my surprise I discovered that they are not a good match for my ears. Clearly there are many for whom they resonate, I am not one. Which led me to conclude that speaker matching is an individual taste, call it idiosyncratic.

Hence, "Your best is probably not mine"...

"I feel the DAD, EMM Labs, Playback Designs and the PM2 are the best converters made... period."

- Bruce Brown Link

"I know where there are about 5 or 6 PM2's that were picked up from a film co. that went under. They are going for ~$8k.. I think I just might pick up one!"

Comment later edited to say:

"I know where there are about as many people that want the PM2 as there were made. It would be great if they did come out with a PM3 that was as good or better than the original. It would be a hard act to follow!"

- Bruce Brown Link

"Hence, "Your best is probably not mine"..."

I could never disagree with your statement. Although I still stand behind my statement, not in an arrogant way, but rather I am very confident in what I heard and know about this and other speakers.

Thanks for the post.

Given your praise for the Q5 I am intrigued as to just how good they are.

At the very least your advocacy is prompting me to contemplate a new audition ensemble.

Perhaps Q5 vs Avalon Time (just released, would hope they are at CES) vs Rockport Aquila vs Wilson Maxx 3.

Unobtainable = antiquated

Mani.

Keep drinking that Kool-aid Mani.. You better hope it don't break down because you'll have an expensive door stop.
There are many more labels that use other converters that I feel are better than the RR recordings.
Thanks for the links Chris... I had to edit the remarks because I was called to the carpet from one of the Model 2 worshipers. I'm tired of the political BS and having to "watch what I say" because it might offend someone.
Yes, the Model 2 is in my top 5... but there are better.
The quote: "I feel the DAD, EMM Labs, Playback Designs and the PM2 are the best converters made... period." I'll have to drop the Model 2 now because it's NOT made anymore. I'm so glad I didn't pick one up now!

I don't use and have never used a server because they're not as good as the professional workstations that we use everyday. That's why I didn't include a server in my list.

Regards,

"I have heard the Vandersteen 7, Avalon Isis, and TAD Reference One. All great speakers, but no Q5 in my opinion. "

For each of these, did you get an extended audition in the designer's soundroom where the system was maximally dialed in (which appears to be the case for your Q demo)?

Looking forward to reading the CES reports . . .

Mani - Euphonix would service your Model Two like they have all the others.

Hi Chris,
I was at Goodwin Audio who have had a long history with Magico and the only dealer (i believe) to have the M5, M6 and V3 in the same room (i guess they have the whole line). in our listening we were saying we hope we can get the best of the M6 and the M5, notably, the great mids and top end of the M5 but get the M6's ability to pressurize a room, i.e. move air sufficient to the room size. i was wondering what size room you heard the Q5's in and if you think they have the ability to fill a large room. dimensions wise they seem to be closer to a V3 than M5 but volume wise, i think they are pretty close to the M5 (I am speaking of actual internal volume).
thanks,

"Well, if your main criterion is to get something sonically in the same league, you'll never buy a new DAC ;-)"

Well, there's a well known pro recording engineer who posted here that his all-time favorite converter was the Model Two - at least up until the arrival of the $6k AD/DA that must not be named. ;-)

Mani, I know you were kidding. If I had your DAC, I'd have said the same thing.

clay

Hi bherlihy - Wow a discussion that's on topic :~) I like it. I believe the Q5 has more internal volume than the M5. I don't want to guess at the room dimensions. Not small and not large. Hows that for subjective? I hope you can go back to Alan Goodwin's when the Q5s arrive.