Less Loss Audio DEVICES (Black Body)

You don't have to understand. Just buy it. LOL

Apparently the manufacturer has a hard time understanding the product as well. He claims it deals with RF and EM to improve sound. But after pages and pages of discussion on 300+ (related?) topics...see right hand side... Does he ever get around to discussing how the product works? Or describe how it is constructed?
After two or three paragraphs not getting anywhere I did some serious speed reading/skimming and couldn't find anything.

Wow, I actually thought it was a parody site at first.

I'm sure it's not snake oil, but rather based on real testing and solid theories. And I'm quite sure that the sonic impact is just shy of "revelatory" and that every system, regardless of setup, vendor, or treatment, can benefit from having ten or more of these devices strategically placed around the relevant gear. And that those that fail to hear a dramatic increase in airiness of the highs, and a "lit from within" character to the midbass, are in fact, haters with extreme grudges to bear the company and are probably stone deaf to boot.

Taking advantage of the very real Placebo affect.

Every drug trial compares the drug to a placebo [which is supposed to have no affect] however in every single trial the placebo does have an affect. In some cases up to 30% of testers respond to the placebo.

I respect Louis for what he does and if he lets you in, on his journey to a new discovery, than he gives way more information on the background of his products than other manufacturers. I see a direct relation to the information on his site and the products he develops. I bought 3 DFPC Signature PCs from Lessloss after trying one in my system with a very profound effect.
I havent tried the blackbody yet, but I will. I will start with 3 of them and I guess that if you would want to buy 10 for your system, Louis would advice you not to.
This is an advice Louis gave me: "Claudius, its not worth the money, its a scam. Save your money for cables... uh, or something more accepted." ;-)

Guys what I like about this forum is, that sarcasm is very seldom. So if you want to challenge the theories behind Louis products do so.
Claudius

You are quite right. Sarcasm is simply mean-spirited and adds little to any conversation. That said, sarcasm is often more gentle than outright hostility and frank disbelief. So perhaps it has it's place?

Moving on, and more constructively:

I have a stack of cables I borrowed from The Cable Company. I have Audience Au24e's, Synergistic Research Tesla Accelerators, Kimber Kable Select 1021s, a Harmonic Technologies Magic Link, Acoustic Zen Silver Reference IIs, Purist Audio's Aqueous Anniversary's, and some Revelations from DH Labs.

A non-sequitur? Well, no, not exactly. I say all this to highlight a poorly illuminated but still critical fact about audiophilia:

Everything matters, but very little matters very much.

In reference to that pile of cables, I have to say that most share similar characteristics. That is, all are very well made. However, beyond that, some are shielded (SR, HT, AZ, PAD) and some aren't (Audience, DHLabs -- and who knows about the Kimber). All are single ended, except the PADs. About half are silver, or some combo of silver/copper. All are ~1m. So, a nice selection of some nice mid-level (sub $1k) interconnects, all supposedly tried by my fellow audiophiles as being "synergistic" with my gear (as according to The Cable Co).

And you know what? Damned if they don't all sound pretty much exactly the same. I mean, so much so, that I'd bet anyone would be unable to discriminate one from another in a blind "taste test" (there are two exceptions, but they do prove the rule).

How can this be? Each company has it's own geometry, it's own approach to shielding, dialectric, conductor, capacitance, inductance, &c. That is, they're all wildly different. Yet ... it doesn't matter. At all.

Kinda makes you go "hmmmmm...", no?

Back to a point I made a few weeks ago: when considering an upgrade, try to figure out what it's worth to you. Using that methodology implies that: the degree of sonic impact supports a commensurate investment.

So where are your biggest gains going to be (which in turn indicates where your investments are best applied)?

1. Speakers. Hands down, the biggest impact to your sonic performance. While a new amp, pre, or source may make your speakers come alive (or not), changing them will in no case make a non-planar sound like a planar. Ain't gonna happen.

2. Amp + Pre-amp. I put these together, but I suppose others would break them up and rate them and their impact accordingly -- to each their own. Together, I think the point of these two elements is to make your speakers sound as good as possible, and that's about it -- which is the highest praise you can heap upon your amp and pre, IMO.

3. Source. I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again: it matters! But not as much as the other stuff, above, regardless of how much cash you throw at it. A dCS stack is never going to make your Yamaha sound like a conrad-johnson or an Ayre.

4. Speaker cables, interconnects, and yes, room treatments. Again, the best that all these things can hope for is to make the above gear sound it's best -- by themselves, if designed well, they ought to add nothing.

5. Tweaks. In this lowly, wildly subjective and IMO totally irrelevant category, I put racks, footers, cable risers, tube dampers, resonators, and, yes, power conditioning and power cables. What these things hope for -- and in many cases, aspire to -- is audibility, and most fail utterly.

Case in point here is Lessloss Black Body, very obviously a category #5 product. Here's the kicker -- even if it was free, most folks would benefit most by selling them -- and spending that money elsewhere in their system.

Does that mean you should never spend money in category #5, generally? No. You should -- because it's fun, and hell, you never know till you try. But -- and this is a big, fat, knarly butt of a but -- only only only after you've gotten categories 1-4 sorted to your satisfaction. And even then, be fully wide-eyed prepared to have your $300 in brass footers do nothing but look great.

There is a caveat, and perhaps it's unfair to throw it in at the tail end of an unduly downer of a post, but it's this: if your system is very revealing (and if you have to ask, it isn't), then you're going to need to spend more money in category #4. And in that case, category #5 becomes an enchanted playground filled with voodoo, spirits and dark rituals.

I say all this because too often we, as audiophiles, get wrapped up in the tweaks -- we invert the pyramid, if you will -- so it's worth resetting the worldview before wondering if we ought to be wandering off the map into the realm of the highly subjective.

Which means this: if you're looking to invest in your system, save up and make the big changes that will have dramatic impact. Then, over time, work downstream as you tune and refine ... and eventually, tweak.

So, Claudius -- that was what I was not saying. So, here it is and this time, without the sarcasm. Again, my apologies.

And happy holidays!

If my wife knew, that I am at a computeraudiophile forum answering a post she would hit me right in my face ;-)
Good that I have an Iphone, which I can kind of hide, while typing. I have a completely different ranking. But that would take to long for today, I promise I will get back to with my comments on that.
I just wanted to comment on "That said, sarcasm is often more gentle than outright hostility and frank disbelief."
Scot, if you would say I do not belief that this can work, than I am totally with you. I do not belief it either. But I know that a lot of things I do not belief in had profound effects on my listening pleasure. E.g. Power Cords. Ups I already start with my ranking...
Wishing you all the best
Claude

This just goes to see how different people think...

Where you place speakers as your number one, I personally put the speakers as the very last thing of importance, and everything else ahead of them...

I feel i would rank the importance in sonic as such

1/ The source is hands down the most important. And to me I cant possibly see how anyone can say any different. Just do to the simple fact that its impossible to improve a signal once it has left the source. IMPOSSIBLE! From the point the signal leaves the source it can ONLY degrade. I'm open to anyones argument that can prove me otherwise.

2/ I would place the Pre amp as number 2. We all know the very best pre amps are the ones who you don't know are even there, the ones who show no noticeable impact on the original signal...You want a great preamp so you have as very little impact on the original signal before it is transfered to the amp...

3/ The interconnects, for the very same reason as i stated for the preamp. A great interconnect should have as very little impact on the original signal before it reaches the AMP.

4/ which brings me to the Amp, it is where the most changes occur to the signal... I think we can all figure out what we want our amp to do at this point. And why a great amp is needed.

5/ The Speaker Cable... Once again we want a great speaker cable that will not alter the signal once it has left the Amp...

6/ which brings me to the Speaker as the last major component in the line up...

7/ would be all the tweaks we do... And the first tweak i would do is room treatment, then mains cables and conditioners... everything after than in my opinion makes very little impact in my experience..

As you can see the logic in my line up is all based on trying to keep the signal as original as possible as it passes down the line through all the components... And the ultimate logic behind it all is, its impossible to improve a signal once its passed through anything, the signal only gets worse once you alter it in anyway...

Anyways, thats my two bits. In no way do i want to offend anyone. Just posting my thoughts...

Cam

3/ I would then place the Amp at 3.

I think you've got an interesting approach, which if I may summarize is the following: "don't f@#k up the signal!" If that's a fair summary, I have no problem with that philosophy at all.

Well, okay, I guess the only thing I have to say is this: no one ever hears a signal. You hear sound, not a series of bits in a file, or a fluctuation in voltage, or anything else. It's sound. And that means a speaker of some kind. Said another way, there is no other component that can (and will) distort your signal more than a speaker. Hence, my stack ranking.

1. The Room
2. AC Quality (That includes PCs and Conditioner)
3. Source
...
?. Listener - Maybe 0.1 or maybe last?

1. Sound waves travel in your room. If you want them to find their way to your ear in a good manner invest in Room treatments (if your wife accepts them).
2. Even bits and bites arent 0s and 1s walking hand in hand from your PC to your speaker (even if the whole signal path is digital). Its all Power! In a perfect world you would have that 50-60hz at 110 or 220 V stable without any emi and rmi degrading your signal.
3. Cam is perfectly right, If you ever heard a very good source completely transform a system, then you know he is right.
I once heard a system at a show, sort of stumbled in this room, because another room was full, sat down and was completely drawn into the music. I sat at the back of a little showroom. No concrete walls, a glass door behind me, but treated with some room treatments. The sound was nothing of spectacular. The price of the speakers: 625 Euros!!!!! Swan S1
The biggest improvements in my system: Installing a dedicated AC, Changing Fuses, PCs from Lessloss and the Ayre QB9. Of course I wouldnt have been able to hear the improvements, if I had not very good speakers.
Socrates
I just made a similar experience with cables! Had three different cables here, all 1500 Euros plus. I heard differences easily but they did not change the sound to the better: my conclusion: my upgrade path is not cables! Yours might not be either!

So the Lessloss Black Body addresses 2 and 3 (if it is working ;-) )
Claudius

Not that the various sources are unimportant, but I think its fair to say that the speaker / room interaction has a far greater measurable effect on sound than anything else in the playback chain. Unless a source component has a seriously flawed design, there is no way a change in source should have the effect of properly matching a speaker to the room. A change in source can't fix an eight decibel standing wave hump at 80 Hz, nor correct a beaming upper midrange, nor fix the phase response of a specific crossover design.

Having said that, I do think sources are extremely relevant to the overall sound quality of a system, and the impact of a source will effect everything as a component in the chain. However, the speaker / room interactions should be dealt with before anything else because changes in this part of the chain are comparatively huge. Getting the speaker / room interactions right allow more subtle changes to be far more effective rather than masked.

Alan

I acutally have the blackbodies sitting at home now for a couple of weeks and had very little time to listen. But now I am ready to post some first impressions.
The short version: well worth the money!
The long version:
Just after I put the blackbodies around my equipment I heard an immediate change in sound. First impression: Sound became leaner, more room, more details. I removed them, listened. Details gone, less room. bass a little fuller but also a little muddier. Put the blackbodies around the gear again (all 3 placed around the QB9). Same impression. Asked myself: is this worth the money? Answered: No! Was disappointed, went to bed and slept. Woke up and thought about sending them back. I kind of expected the three to totally transform my listening experience. Well, I hadnt experimented enough. Yet!
The next night, I put one on top of each speaker. Now that was a clear improvement. Much more clarity! Sound became way more transparent than before. I tried to move around the one who was aiming at the qb 9 a little bit in one direction then in another. I put in on top of the QB9. Moved it further away. Hu, was what this? This hihat did sound different just a second ago?! It sounded much more natural. But not only the hihat, everything sounded more natural. But, did I somehow turn down the volume. I cranked it up some more. Well a bit more. My wife came in and told me to turn down the volume I hardly heard her. I only saw her lips move. Wow. I replied: Sorry. Wow, I coulndt hear my own voice. That was really loud. And it was so clear and not nerving.
Too bad I had to work the last two weeks about 14 hours a day, came home late at night and couldnt listen to music. Today I had three hours of listening. After about one hour I removed the two blackbodies from my speakers. Ok they work. The sound was no longer lively. More closed in. The noise floor was higher. Less clarity. Kind of like the impact of a better power chord. But PCs often change the sound (more bass, more hights, more body,...) The blackbodies seem to work on the details. on the whole frequency band. It does not change the overall character of my system. It uncovers the sound.
I will experiment some more and get back with more impressions, also with some listening material most of you know.
Anyone else has experience with the blackbodies?
Claudius

Hi there,

interesting off-topic debate.

I tend to agree with Scot ranking.
I did that twice, for two different systems, and that led me to very good results.
In fact, you can miss the strenghts of a new source if both the rest of the chain (including room) is not on par.

Right now, I'm ending step 4 : room, although the waf is quite tough, so I'm not expecting many changes, and lurking towards step 5 : power cables, definitely not going the Black Body route so far (I'm not saying it has no effect, that is just not for me at the moment) for the main system.

Of course, YMMV, blah blah blah...

Elp