Current CA Music Servers and Diagram

Chris ...

I noticed on your "PC" system you list Media Monkey and J.River as the two playback software - is there any reason you chose these and don't use FooBar 2k?

And a second question, your (multiple) Mac's, do they just share a single iTunes library, or do you have multiple library files?

Eloise

Hi Eloise - I don't use Foobar because it's like looking at a spreadsheet. I consider it a laboratory tool that's there if I need it, but it's not my cup of tea. Sure I can use another skin, but I'm just not into it. Nothing wrong with Foobar sonically though. I share one library for all my Macs, plus I have a small library on my MacBook Pro that's more for testing and fooling around than anything. I store the complete iTunes folder on the NAS. This way I don't have to update individual library files on each Mac.

When you share the iTunes folder and library files, can you access it with more than one computer at once, or is it limited to having iTunes loaded on one only at once?

Eloise

I don't take the chance of sharing the library. Plus, I don't need to because all my servers are connected to the same system. Once of these days I'll play with it, but I have a feeling it may take a while for a problem to happen.

What about Stereo Equipment?

What speakers, dacs, interconnect, sources, amplifiers do you have in the system at all times? (understanding you switch out some, but certainly there are some ones that stick around a while)

Make and Models?

Chris,
I will be very interested in hearing more as these "side projects" progress. I did not like my experience buying the Zalman setup from the west coast computer shop. These fanless single board computers in a small case with an SSD should be a real winner for someone who is willing to use Linux.

Mike

Chris,

Did you receive my reply to your inquiry about my Alix setup? I got back to you within a couple of says but heard nothing back. let me know if you have any more questions.

Nick

Hi Nick - I certainly did and I've been in my own world working on the Alix board and the Intel board since last Friday. Thanks for the information I'll be in touch shortly as I have a question or two for you :~)

Eloise- I'm not sure if this will answer your question, but with PC it is possible to run multiple ITunes instances off the same Itunes library. I have a NAS with up to four sources (3 PCs & Apple TV streaming) from the same Itunes library, all pointed to the same .itl file, running at the same time. Control them from the same Touch to feed Airport Expresses in different rooms of the house. 4 different songs, 4 computers, playing at same time, no issues so far in 8+ months with this setup.

That's great to hear Egon. When you rip CDs do you still have iTunes open on all the computers? I'm glad you've had it running for many months.

Hey Chris I noticed you mentioned that using a laptop is the ultimate remote. I looked into the remote desktop solution and it sounds promising. If I use my netbook to access my music from the internal drives in my desktop in another room how well does that work?

Can I have XP on my netbook and Windows 7 on the desktop, will that work?

And lastly, if I am accessing my music using the netbook to the remote desktop can someone go onto my desktop and use it while I am using my netbook to access it? I hope that makes sense.

Here's what I am thinking, I was going to put the desktop right next to my audio tower to connect it my stereo but if I can use the remote desktop and still access it without putting it right next to my tower (less clutter, noise, cables, etc.) why not, right? I just wanted to make sure it would work just as good and to see if someone can still use my desktop while I was also accessing it or is it pretty much locked to me once I log on using the remote desktop?

Thanks

Hi JB - This can be tricky depending on what version of Windows you use and if you want to use third party applications. Not all versions of Windows allow remote desktop. If your music server is running Windows 7 it will need the professional or ultimate version in order to be controlled via Remote Desktop. Any version can be controlled by third party VNC software.

Nobody will be able to use your computer that is being remote controlled.

It's really not that difficult even if I just made it seem hard.

I'm pretty sure this is the type of solution I'm looking for. My main computer is an iMac. That is what I use to manage and add to the library which is stored externally on a NAS. I tried the library share thing with another XP PC and while it does pick up the library, I can't control it with my iPod touch since it is not in the main library. Chris, in your setup, can multiple computers add to the library and are they all in sync automatically? I'm not sure now to point my PC to the itl file, if there is one, on my iMac. Ideally, I would like cover flow and to be able to use Remote with all of my computers.

Yeah, the NAS setup works wonderful with multiple computers. Since my computers share the same library there really is nothing to sync. They can all add to the library without problems. I just make sure iTunes isn't open on the machines not adding to the library at the same time. If iTunes had a real database they could all add at the same time.

To point computers to the NAS located iTunes library just direct iTunes to the iTunes folder. You don't have to select a specific file. iTunes will figure it out. Hold down shift on a PC or Option on a Mac when opening iTunes and you'll have the option to browse to the library.

How's MPD & Linux coming along Chris?
have you managed to add AIFF/ALAC support in MPD?
My impressions cf Amarra are that it is more "raw" but equally enjoyable. And streets ahead of Win.
I imagine your async USB dacs would be the thing.

Hi Andrew - Things are going extremely well with Linux and MPD. You should hear the sound I'm getting right now. absolutely fabulous :~) Yes, the async USB input on the dCS stack is incredible and the total sound in my listening room is stunning at this moment in time. So enjoyable to listen to my music this way!

I wish I could! I'd be over in two shakes of a lamb's tail.

There is something delicious about combining a sub $200 transport and a $40,000 (?) dCS stack. Less is definitely more wrt computer audio IME.

I know the Alix 2d2 I have around the place is very good as a transport (Thanks Nick - NYC Paramedic).

How good is the dCS U Clock & Scarlati! Amazing front to back dimensionality. Actually the dCS U Clock and any dCS dac eg the Elgar Plus is amazing.

On a tangential note my Quad 57's are finished having new bass panels/fabric grills/psu's/clamp boards fitted and are due back in a week - yippee. Mahler without arcing - joy!

Chris ...
A question that someone else asked and I thought I knew the answer but sure you'll know for sure ... can the PC just open the same iTunes Library files as the Mac? I thought the answer was no but perhaps you could clarify for us!

Another thought I had - in trialing MPd, have you tried it on a "full spec" PC such as your Dell box?

Eloise

I was asked above whether I can rip CDs on my PCs with multiple computers simultaneously using the same .itl file. And I'm not sure, haven't had time the last couple of nights to test it out.

My logic with this thing is that ITunes code has to allow for multiple different streams from the same library if someone owned several streaming Apple TVs. So I'm guessing that's why all my PCs are able to use the same .itl file on my network. (I have only PC so can't comment on the Mac/PC use from same file.) Anything that's outside just streaming, I don't mess with it because it's easy to avoid.

As a precaution, when making any change to my ITunes library, or updating software, I close all but one computer. Once changes are made I'll open the others as needed for streaming needs. I'll test this weekend whether or not it's necessary and post results.

@ Eliose - I too would love to know if Chis has run MPD on his eg Dell.

I run MPD on both my regular pc music server and the Alix 2d2. The regular pc sounds great but the Alix is superior. Which is not surprising when you consider the Alix draws 3 watts, is truly headless (you set up via SSH) does one thing and one thing only. Having said that I tend to use the regular pc as it is multi functional ie I have it hooked up by HDMI to my telly and eg can type this while listening.

On the pc I have tried Linux Mint and Ubuntu Studio. Ubuntu studio sounds amazing. Linux Mint (which is a repackaged regular Ubuntu with all the codecs installed) is slightly inferior. This is due I assume to the low latency kernel in Studio. The 32 bit versions of Studio and Mint both sound better than the 64 bit versions. Linux likes less ram - being hard limited to 3GB isn't a bad thing.

I also run Win7 64x with Foobar + Wasapi. Windows likes lots of Ram - 8GB is good. Foo sounds very good - I use it eg for listening to online radio.

The mobo does make a difference with a Asus P5Q Pro sounding the best of several I tried - I assume because it offloads video duties to a pci card. Plus debian plays nice with it. Not always a given.

I have tried unsuccessfully to port MPD to Snow Leopard - I don't know enough about it to not stuff up my Mac so have given up on that little venture. Just for fun I did run Studio under Parallels but could discern no real difference to iTunes and core audio (not surprising since Parallels uses core audio) I've yet to run Studio under Boot Camp. Mucking around with my Mac work laptop is a tad dangerous.

I found Amarra, when I tried it, to be a smoother more analogue sound and MPD to be more raw and brutally transparent. I liked each in their own way.

The Alix 3d3 is interesting because it can be used with a display - plus set up is easier.

I run AIFF for Mac and Flac for MPD/Foo. I like having multiple back ups in any event.

The problem with testing the Dell is Lynx AES 16 drivers. Using the Lynx requires yanking out the more popular ALSA sound system and replacing it with OSS, and it also means paying 50 bucks to the OSS guys to get the closed source drivers.

I think the answer for TV based control is to get a client that can run from a TV. Someone's already developed a Linux based client aimed at a TV, but I haven't tested that out as I don't use Linux for my HTPC, uing a Mac Mini/Plex. Would love to see the Plex or XBMC guys add mpd integration, but I don't know that it will ever happen. There has been a bit of interest on both boards, and someone started a proof of concept project, but it never got far.

The Network Media Tank community has something that looks interesting:
http://www.networkedmediatank.com/showthread.php?tid=23653&page=1

There is also an AppleTV client on the MPD wiki...

The Lynx OSS drivers are free for personal use provided you renew your licence (free) every 6 months. The easiest way to use MPD is with a usb dac - avoids the whole OSS thing.

Ummm.I have a client that runs from a TV...Minion in Firefox. In fact there is no other way to control MPD except via a client (unless via terminal).

Speaking of terminal, the NCMPC client is kind of fun. The terminal interface is so basic it gives you a good feeling that not much else is going on in the machine.

Do you have a link to the free version of the drivers? The only thing I saw on the OSS website was the 49.95 version.

I guess when I said TV I was thinking remote control/couch distance friendly. Any client can be run from a TV if desired of course. The things Network Media Tank guys are doing in terms of Fan Art, lyrics, etc are pretty cool, and a similar experience could be created relatively easily using XBMC or Plex.

they get back to you with a link to the free drivers.

@Chris - :)

Chris, which software are you using on your iPod Touch and MacBook Air to control the playback sources?

I have compared the Apple Remote against the Rowmote (both on my iPhone) against the regular IR Remote and must say that I get the best sound of my MacBook / Amarra / iTunes setup with the regular IR Remote.

The worst I get from using Apple Remote ore with VNC controlling (even more worse). With Rowmote it is acceptable, so with Rowmote I could live but the comfort against IR Remote is not huge.

I have measured the data out of the system with all three remotes working, but I get in all situations perfect 1:1 Bit True and also the same jitter performance.

For me the sound difference between using Apple Remote or IR Remote is larger than comparing FLAC against Wave or AIFF against ALAC.

So again, witch software are you using of your MacBook Air and on your iPod Touch?

And a second question: Does anyone know a Windows App similar the Mac App Rowmote?

Best Regards

Juergen

Dear Juergen:
Your post is of interest to me in that I currently control (a headless G4 Mac mini running Tiger sitting near my USB DAC and running iTunes) from my desk across the room using JollyFastVNC. I have remarked in this forum that screen-share software always seems to be ridiculously processor intensive on the host (in my case, the underpowered mini feeding tunes to my DAC). If I keep the session open (with iTunes in foreground) on my controlling client for 10 minutes, the mini's fan starts running higher. (I started off using Timbuktu--a proprietary s/w for screen control--and it was crazy-intensive on the processor, so I switch to Tiger's built-in VNC support.)
I don't have my reference speakers hooked up yet so I can not comment on sonic penalties.

Your post seems to imply that even just the control method used has an slight impact on the SQ. What else do you (or anyone here) think that can be due to besides the host having to run additional processing threads (and RAM use)? Certainly your experience with VNC ranking the worst would seem to bear this out.

Please tell us the basic specs of the host machine you are controlling.
Thanks,
ALEX

I thinking of setting up a Linux System with a Real Time Kernel?
I'm using Windows 7, and the latencies have a bad influce on the sound.
Therefore I'm curious about your side projects.

\Edit: Anyone tested 64Studio? Sounds interesting
http://www.64studio.com/

Regards, Matt

Hi Matt - It looks interesting since it is a real time kernel. I've talked to a couple people about real time kernels for music servers and they said it's not worth it. Don't take that as my opinion, it's just what I've heard. If there are benefits to having a RTK then let's do it right now :~) The 64Studio distribution is about 800MB. I'm using some embedded Linux distributions that are 50MB and run with 256MB of RAM. If there is a way to strip down 64Studio it could be a great project to dig into. Please do it and tell us :~)

Chris,

You could just recompile the Voyage kernel with real time patches. No need to futz with Ubuntu studio.

Thanks NYC_P. I'll be testing this for sure.

That’s right, VNCs are really crazy on processor load, and sounded very diffuse, so I just tried this on two systems and gave it up as an opinion.

I have three different Macs, to test some audio behavior on Tiger, Leopard and Snow Leopard. All sounded very different (2 MacBooks, 1 MacMini, each with 2 or 4 GB RAM, 120 or 160 GB HDD, nothing special).

The Macs seems to be very sensitive in Sound Quality (even everything is Bit True), and also iTunes, Amarra MINI and Amarra sounded very different and also Amarra 1.1 sounded different than 1.02, strange.

So with this high sensitivity on sound changes, it was easy to notice that IR Remote, Rowmote and Apple Remote and VNC all have influence on the sound quality.

On Windows Platform with J.River MC14 via WASAPI and reading files from HDD first into RAM and then to the output, I have a more consistent sound over different computers.

The IR Remote works fine with J.River, but I would like to play also a little bit around on Windows with software like Rowmote or Apple Remote, but on Windows Platform.

So I anyone has a similar App as Rowmote or Apple Remote for Windows, I would be happy to try this out.

Juergen

I appreciate the details for your music servers.

I see you are experimenting with Linux. What soundcard do you have, or are thinking about, for your Linux systems?

What playback and ripping software are you using for Linux? Considering your ripping strategy, what playback format is best for Linux: FLAC, AIFF or WAV?

I currently have Songbird on Ubuntu 9.10 and like it so far. It provides a lot of help with discovering new music.

With Ubuntu 9.04 the OSS out was limited to 16 Bit, but with Songbird and CD Data (16 Bit) it was at least for 16 Bit Data bit true. 24 Bit was dithered down to 16 Bit.

The new Ubuntu 9.10 has opened OSS to 24 Bit, but is not longer Bit True, even with 16 Bit CD Data and does also Resampling when changing sample rates of the source.

Juergen

You should give Arch Linux a go. It can run on a lot of systems and starts out as a terminal, basically. You build up whatever you want. I am in the process. It's pretty interesting but kind of frusterating. Permissions and shit are sort of annoying for a windows guy like me. Not used to having to do much of that. Home Windows User that is.

I cant really change my system at the moment because I'm in the middle of an important project, but after that I think I'll look into it. I kind of solved my latency-problems by the way. Disabling every startup, service or device possible (including currently not needed system devices) and forcing realtime priority for foobar did the trick.

Regards, Matt

Hi Chris,

Does the length of the Lynx AES16 -> DAC cable matter? I'm currently using a 1m custom Gotham HD26 -> AES XLR cable, from my G5/Lynx to an Alpha DAC, so the noisy G5 and NAS is close to the audio components. How long is your cable, and at what length do you expect jitter to become a problem? If I can run a 5-8m cable, I can move the G5 and NAS out of the listening room. Thanks!

Best,
Vincent

Hi Vincent - Length certain will matter, but if there is a magic length beyond which to go I am not sure. I know certain cables are designed to go longer distances than others. My cable is three meters. Depending on how much a new long cable costs, I would probably give it a shot and listen for any negative effects to the sound. If there are none or little but livable effects then you're golden.

Hi Chris,

I recently discovered your excellent website and I am very enthusiastic about it!

As a beginner in the area of computer based audio I'm in the process of finding out how to configure my system (location of iTunes library, location of music files, connection from music storage to music server and connection from music server to audio system).

From your articles and system diagram I learned you keep the music files and the iTunes library in one central location (the NAS I presume) and use the same library with all computers. Which is exactly what I'd like to do.

My question is, how do you connect your NAS to your music server: over the wireless network or wired? If wired, how (eg. ethernet, USB)?

When I use the wireless network (Time Capsule, 5 GHz) my iTunes (75k songs, 500 GB) and in fact the whole computer (iMac 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 1 GB memory) becomes very slow. Speed improves slightly when I move the library (not the music files) to the hard drive of the computer, but then I loose the opportunity to share. When I do not use the NAS, but connect a hard drive directly to the computer, speed is excellent, but again no sharing. Would you recommend to wire the NAS to the computer (which is not easy for me because they're not close to each other) or is there another solution?

I can imagine others might struggle with this issue as well, but I haven't found many posts on this subject yet.

Thx in advance for your reply!

Rick

Hi Rick - Welcome to Computer Audiophile. My NAS has two Ethernet ports so I have a couple options. Right now I connect port one to my Ethernet switch. This allows all computers on my network to access the music. I connect port two directly to my Mac Pro via Cat6 cable. Since my Mac Pro has two Ethernet ports it also connects to the main network. I haven't noticed any speed difference going directly to the NAS v. going through the network switch, but it's nice to eliminate additional points of failure. When I play music from he NAS on my Mac Pro I can reboot the switch or accidentally kick the power cord loose on the switch and not have to worry about losing connection to the NAS.

I do connect via wireless from my MacBook Pro once in a while and it does work fine. But, nothing beats a wired connection.

Thanks Chris for your quick reply. Nothing beats a wired connection, very clear answer.

This resolves another issue too: slow response and (annoying) time outs of my Airport Express, used for streaming music with AirTunes. I think I will use my old MacBook Pro as a dedicated music server, attach an external hard drive via usb, connect to my amp with a Devilsound DAC and use the wireless network only to make backups on the Time Capsule (and for iPhone based remote control). For me, sharing of libraries is more of a nice-to-have anyway. Like this I won't have to buy an expensive dac with optical in (I don't own a dac yet) and still improve sound quality compared to the currently used analog out of my Airport Express.

Rick

Chris
I greatly admire your resolve and your obvious quest for CA perfection. I've been involved in audio for 30+ years and still very much bitten by the bug - I have 5 systems spread around a few properties, most of them fully blown active systems , some tube , some solid state, some combination with conventional, electrostatic and one horn speaker system. All very evolved (imo) and a bit of money invested, typically most of my systems use CD and vinyl sources, preamp, DEQX, 6 channel power monoblocks etc- I think I have about 10 dacs so I understand obsessive behaviour.
But i dont get the nerdiness of CA- do you really need your systems to be so complicated and top heavy with equipment?
Does it really sound much better than a good dac outputing iTunes into a good amplifier and speakers?
I'm tempted to just stick my head in the CA water and see what's there, but will it be any better than my existing attempt at CA which is a Mac with E-MU USB Dac into a nice pair of hybrid tube/SS amps driving Gallo Nucleas drivers (4 working in stereo) plus sub?
Set up in my office as nearfield monitors so sound is like a big headphone, which is how I like to listen to new music to get to know it.
In it's own way it's as enjoyable as my big expensive systems . May I respectfully ask ; will going as deep into the technology as you have make any meaningful difference, or am I better off just having fun with this and doing all my critical listening on my "big" systems.

Hi Supra - Thanks for the post and a little background into your audiophile journey.

"But i dont get the nerdiness of CA- do you really need your systems to be so complicated and top heavy with equipment?"

One doesn't need anything but an iPod actually. But, when seeking the best sound quality available one does need to dig deeper and get more involved with equipment and configuration. I'm willing to bet many people would look at your audio systems and say, "[D]o you really need your systems to be so complicated and top heavy with equipment?" Please don't take offense with this next statement -> I think your belief that these music sever systems are complicated and top heavy with equipment come from a lack of deep understanding about how computers work and what each internal component does. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this and lack of understanding is one major reason I started this site. People need a place to learn about computer based playback. I really don't think my servers are complicated at all. My Mac Pro can be ordered from the Apple Store in the same or similar configuration. Putting in a Lynx card is very easy, but can be hired out if necessary. Connecting AES to an External DAC is a piece of cake.

"I'm tempted to just stick my head in the CA water and see what's there, but will it be any better than my existing attempt at CA which is a Mac with E-MU USB Dac into a nice pair of hybrid tube/SS amps driving Gallo Nucleas drivers (4 working in stereo) plus sub?"

It depends on your setup. If you have bit perfect output, low jitter, no moving parts, etc... and in my opinion a much better DAC then it should be much better than your current system. Everything matters from the power source to the speakers.

"May I respectfully ask ; will going as deep into the technology as you have make any meaningful difference, or am I better off just having fun with this and doing all my critical listening on my "big" systems."

Of course you can respectfully ask anything around here :~) I've actually gone much deeper than is shown here and the results are much better. If I were you I would connect your Mac with an excellent DAC to your big systems. That's the start of great sound.

Chris
Thanks for your comments- pretty much as I expected and of course I see your point of view. You are dead right about a lack of computer understanding holding me back, however i'm positive i'm not an orphan here- most audiophiles dont have the computer basics to figure this stuff out and i suspect it is just a bit too heavy for most to grasp without a lot of education, and that is very hard to find. There's basic primers around but nothing that can "qualify" someone to thoroughly understand all this CA stuff. At least that's my perception.
Still, Gordon Rankin is good at digital, computers and tubes so I guess it is just a matter of application.
I'll take your advice and put one of my good Dacs on the mac and slot it in with the stats.
Thanks again.

Hi Supra - Thanks for the response. You certainly are no orphan when it comes to this stuff. In the consumer market high end computer audio is very new to most people. Thus, people really shouldn't expect to understand the ins and outs overnight. People who claim to know everything actually no nothing in my opinion.

Make sure you use a good interface between your Mac and good DAC. If you want the best digital output don't use the built-in optical mini TosLink on the Mac.

Above you posted:
>> I can let people know exactly what I'm using and what I prefer. I've listened to countless configurations on many operating systems and hardware platforms. <<

The config information is extremely useful. What would be great is to know, at least as far as the complete tested rigs, the order of preference sonically, the order of preference for convenience of operation, and the order of preference for reliability (e.g propensity to destroy tweeters with blasts of noise), and finally the system that you personally end up using the most. That would really save a lot of time and more important guide equipment selection.

Sonically
G5
XP PC
Mac Pro & MacBook Pro

Convenience
Mac Pro
MacBook Pro
G5
XP PC

Reliability
Mac Pro
MacBook Pro
G5
XP PC

I listen to the G5 most frequently.

Thanks Chris for the prompt post re preferences. I hope you see fit to update them when you have finished your listening tests with the Linux boxes. Those kind of subjective preferences are invaluable and stating them unequivocally makes the site much much more useful (to me at any rate !!)

I am very hopeful that Linux will prove to be a real winner - neither XP nor OSX are (AFAIK) deterministic OS's, whereas some Linix distros sich as 64studio and Ubuntu Studio (again AFAIK) have realtime kernels which can prioritize processes properly or at least a lot better than the mainstream commercial OS's. All it needs is a few of the interface makers to write great drivers, a Linux port of a good player and then we're off !!!!

All success with your site which I continue to find a very useful reference.

Rgds

Try RiverMote or XPtunes for J. River control with iPhone. I use RiverMote but XPtunes give you a search feature too. Layout and response time go to RiverMote.

Rivermote was coming out with a native plug (with search and other added features) but seems that lack of relational database in J. River is an issue.

On the issue of remotes, I use UltraVNC on all PCs but the last thing I would want would be to have to access/control my media player; even over LAN, this simply is not really....fun.

That's why I think J. River is light years ahead of iTunes.

With their added Treemote feature, combined with Library Server, you can use any PC as a remote or stream client using the very same GUI on all PCs.

I stream FLAC, uncompressed, to my in-laws and office over WAN using the same wonderful GUI. To me they all sound great, but the usability is drastically different across Foobar, MediaMonkey, Amarra, iTunes, & J. River. I'm an Apple fan too, but it never ceases to amaze me how bloated iTunes is and ultimately not feature-rich.

Hi Chris
I just popped on Ubuntu x86 Studio 9.10 on my pc stripping off Win7. Nice to have a 1.2Gb instal rather than a 14GB install.

The basic Ubuntu Studio is fairly stripped down. I like that. I haven't configured MPD yet (that will have to wait till the weekend when I can get my Linux thinking cap on again) but already using Totem as a music player I can say what a terrific improvement I am hearing over Win 7. All with USB audio.

FWIW I am using Qbittorrent for torrenting. It is very, very fast.

I really do like Linux esp the Debian variants. 9.10 seems a big improvement on 9.0.

Thank you JonathanCatuccio for mentioning two Remote software for controlling J.River with an iPhone. I have caught a cold and I am still in bed and my ears are blocked, so my delay to your post. But I will give this a try as soon as I am up and fine again.

Due to the “play from RAM” feature in J.River, I am hoping that enabling the Adhoc WLAN and controlling J.River with RiverMote will not disturb the sound as much, as the Apple Remote does this with Amarra / iTunes.

I was a little bit surprised that no one reacted to my above post, that the kind of remote on Mac running Amarra / iTunes does influence the sound. I have had an demonstration on Monday so I repeated my “remote test” on an different Mac machine with the similar result as on my machines.

Amarra / iTunes controlled via IR Remote gave me a good sound (running the mac book out of batterie, bluetooth and airport deactivated). The next step down is using Rowmote control via Ad-hoc WLAN. The sound stage is smaller, less organized, a little bit more nervous. Then the next step down is using Apple Remote (compared to Rowmote with additional sending lot of informations back to the iPhone, so more traffic). This gave me a too nervous sound. I can't no longer enjoy classical music in the quality, as it was possible without Apple Remote.

So I am hoping with J.River, that this kind of remote will have less influence, due of the “play from RAM” feature, because I also noticed, that due to this feature, the sound difference between different windows machines is much less and more reliable, than with different Mac machines running Amarra / iTunes.

I am also happy, that some one raised his vote for J.River. Really this software plays back FLAC (with Tags and Album Art), AIFF (directly and natively, with Tags and Album Art), Wave (with BWF extension, so also with Tags and Album Art). Does play natively Bit True via exclusive WASAPI Mode with automatic sample rate change (for this you have to have Amarra to use this under Mac). It does also support the secure ripping mode (reads every sector two times) compared to the save mode in iTunes, where the do only take care that each sector fits to the next without gap or overlap (sure I personally use dBpoweramp for ripping, but still J.River does a good job in this).

I do not want to fight against the Mac user here, so do not take me wrong, I have also three macs, but I want to open the opinions, that there are also Windows Programs that do everything you need very good and sound very good, with all database features and streaming etc. So please, no waves against pro and cons of Mac against Windows, I just want to open the minds, that there is also world, beside the Mac world.

Juergen

"I do not want to fight against the Mac user here, so do not take me wrong, I have also three macs, but I want to open the opinions, that there are also Windows Programs that do everything you need very good and sound very good, with all database features and streaming etc. So please, no waves against pro and cons of Mac against Windows, I just want to open the minds, that there is also world, beside the Mac world."

Well said Juergen.

Great sound can come from almost any platform in my opinion.

Chris

I am a new coming in Computer Audiophile living in Beijing. Want to congratulate your very successful website with excellent information.

I went through your configuration and your article on strategy in ripping CDs. According to the strategy, you would keep the back up copy in Flac format in the NAS, do you keep the WAV files and AIFF files in the servers' ? does this mean the data will be split between the servers ?

A lot of articles were written on jitter, what are your views on using external clock as a means to eliminate jitter in the CAS ?

Hi newbjman - Thanks for the kind words. I keep my music al over the place because I need to test everything imaginable. Local SSD, local spinning HDD, external HDD, NAS etc... I've been keeping WAV and AIFF on the servers that have large hard drives like the ones in my ripping article. I also have a FLAC working copy on the NAS so I can stream music to my servers from the NAS. It all comes down to user requirements and what each person is willing to do for the best sound, convenience, data security, and price.

I'm a big supporter of external clocking as I've liked the results on most systems I've heard that use external clocks. I suppose an external clock could decrease or increase jitter depending on one's starting point. Jitter discussions are out of my comfort zone and out of my league in terms of technical expertise. Every time I ask a very qualified engineer I get a different answer than I received from a previous engineer. Jitter is a difficult subject :~)

Hi Chris,

Do you have any plan to test this machine? I would like to know the difference between Weiss DAC2.

Chan

Hi Chan - I'm talking to Linn right now about getting a review unit.

Hi Chris,
I would value advice on your comment;

"Make sure you use a good interface between your Mac and good DAC. If you want the best digital output don't use the built-in optical mini TosLink on the Mac."

I am planning to use a headless Mac mini to feed my Cyrus DAC X which doesn't have USB or Firewire inputs only coaxial or optical, as a temporary solution I am using the optical out feed from a G4 Powerbook but am planning on moving to a Mac mini for physical reasons of system integration. Would I be better considering an alternative method of achieving either an optical or coaxila input to the DAC X?

Is your comment about the optical mini toslink related to issues of quality of this stream?

Regards

Based on Nick's (nyc_paramedic) idea and with his help I wrote a step-by-step tutorial for the setup of a Linux music server based on an Alix board and MPD. This is even for Linux newbies (like myself). I've been using this server for several months now and it's great !

You might use some of these informations. Read it in reverse order (it's is a blog).

http://cheap-silent-usb-linux-music-server.blogspot.com/

I have had an Alix running for a while now - in no small part due to you, and of course Nick.
Now as an aside...Ubuntu Studio Kernel and MPD....

I've got my MPD back up on Ubuntu Studio x86 9.10.
All I can say is - WOW. I forgot how great MPD can sound even on Ubuntu platform.... It really is an awesome bit perfect player...and it's absolutely free! Yippee.

@Chris - so mate - have you got MPD up and running yet?

"@Chris - so mate - have you got MPD up and running yet?"

Oh yeah, long ago. I've got some amazing sound on a couple different servers I'm building. Very tweaked :~)

Your site is great..I just discovered it today while browsing for information to buy new equipment to link my PC music to my Audio system (Cambridge 540R Amplifier - Dali speakers) that sits in another room...
The PC is a very high end PC (i7 920 /4GHz running win7 64bit / itune 9 player)

I would prefer to manage to steam Audio without a wire but understand from reading that if I want to stream HD 24/192 it is not possible wirelessly. I undestood that maximum wireless would be 24/96. in that case I would go for the magicDac from Cambridge and would need a receiver. The apple one is limited to 16/44 but I think there are some 24/96 like the Logitec one...
If I go for wireless is that a setup you recommend?

I have not listenned to difference (and justification for) for 24/192...I see all sorts of posts and debates of not huge difference to 24/96...if there is an audible difference I would be ready to start buying such HD content...but then not sure what DAC to buy and what connection to use between firewire, USB etc...knowing that the cable would then be ~5meters (max budget for all new material to link PC to Amplifier is ~1000eur=1500USD but would hoe to escape with spending less)
Thanks for helping..
Eric

You can stream 24/192 but you can't use iTunes, and you need another PC (which you can build or buy for maybe $300 - windows based).

The Library Server in J. River will stream the source format uncompressed over LAN/WAN and you set the desired bitdepth & sampling rate on the client.

I'm listening to FLAC over WAN to my office 30 miles from home at 24/96.

itunes : (
j river : )

I just burned my first CD....over WAN to my office with J. River LS. Incredible software.

Hi thanks for your post.

- Why would I need another PC?
- Itune is said to play 24/192...I do not understand why I cannot use Itunes..
THX to help

Eric

You can use iTunes but does the airport-N do 192kHz? What other wireless devices do even 24/96. I think ALO has an $800 one that does 24/96. You can buy a tiny 120w psu mini-itx based PC and then hook up your DAC via usb or usb/spdif converter, then you can use your 24/96 24/192 DAC.

You can use Squeezeboxes I guess:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Squeezebox-Touch-Mac-iTunes-24...

Personally, I stay away from iTunes whenever possible; I prefer to use the available 21st century technology ; )

I'm very interested in your Music Server side project. It's seems like your going in the same direction I am with VortexBox making a small low power Linux based music player. But I have gone a step further and added auto ripping of CDs and automatic conversion to Apple lossless and different music server software that can serve almost any player. I just got MPD running on VortexBox as well.

So the big question is am I doing to much with one box? Originally I though that I would make a music server that required a music player such as Sonos, Linn, or SqueezeBox playing music directly off the server would only be for lower fidelity background music. But now it seems like it could be an all in one box that does everything.

Your going he other way trying to remove all the parts of Linux you don't need accept the player and some way to get music files to the system. Do you think there is a balance where once box can do it all and still provide similar quality?

Im also dramatically leaning towards a small fanless MPD server... Ive Been doing alot and trust me i mean ALOT of research on all the different ways to get into what i guess you could call the Computer Music Audiophile Hobby.. And the more I studied, the more ive come to the conclusion a small fanless MPD based Server is the way to go... They are very very cheap to make, and SEEM to have great sonic Benefits... (but lots of work, so hopefuly you know what you are doing)

I constantly read about some guys servers, and now after everything ive learned'; Ive noticed that they are almost all over kill... Hell its actually hard not to be overkill in todays computer market... As a matter of fact when you think about it, in many ways a first Gen Mac Mini is overkill processing in a Music Server... But with that said i think. No, I KNOW that building a PC over something store bought is WAY better. Three HUGE reasons 1) COST, its cheaper to build 2) You have ALLOT more options. 3) You have a better chance to finding a MOBO with all the best connections you need that these store bought models just dont have... Use those stupid USB and Firewire for things like Graphic interface and BluRay/dvd/cd Drives and free up your eSATA and SATA ports for the components that matter the most like the hard drives and internal wireless connections.

I guess the point im trying to make is, you can build a server for 1/3 what most guys are spending on there servers and be every bit if not more sonicly as good if not better... Then you can take that saved money and put it towards a better stereo component or treatment, or buy more music etc etc you be the judge on that.

Ive currently given myself a goal, that i dont believe is going to be easy, but im confident can be done. This goal is to build a music server that will be sonicly better as the Sooloos but with the same ease of use and beautiful graphic touch interface... All at a fraction of the cost. Oh and cant forget its going to be everybit as beautiful to look at...lol.... Toughest part of the whole project is going to be the software... Hardware i already know how to build and even got the parts picked out... As a matter of fact the hardware is better than whats found in the Sooloos.

Im not sure if anywhere here knows what hardware is used in the Sooloos but i do now (shhhhhh dont tell anyone, i can get in allot of trouble) i opened one up the other day, and its a very low powered fanless PC. My netbook has more computing power than this thing. Everything in it is off the shelf stuff that I can purchase online, excluding the DAC. My point being i can reproduce the hardware EXACTLY (minus the DAC) for $1700, thats including the touch monitor. Its the software i can't reproduce. But dammit im going to try to come as close as possible, with the help of some open source software and my best friend, who is a computer programmer for IBM...

lmao, and who knows maybe we will come up with something great and can go into business HAHAHAA...

Umm lol i had a point to all of this, My point being if you use the Sooloos as a benchmark, and i have to tell you guys if you have not heard it, it sounds glorious. So If you use it as a Benchmark knowing it has a low powered PC in it. You can quicly realize you dont need a high powered PC or Mac to make your Music Server sound glorious. Technicaly all Modern store bought computers are overkill in computing power, so unless your using your music server for other funtions other than just music (only thing that comes to mind is gaming), then hey, why not save yourself some money, or even better use that money difference and make sure you get the best components available... The thing that matters most is high quality parts and keeping your signal as direct as possible thus a clean signal entering your DAC. Oh and high bandwidth along with fast signal transfer between components would be important as well, especially if you want to play HiDef Music 24/192 etc...

I hope i didnt step on anyones toes...

Thanks Cam

Hi Cam - Have you looked into the OrigenAE touch panel? It looks very nice and works with Linux. I really like your lofty goal to use open source software to come up with a great software interface. Very cool.

I've used a Sooloos and love the interface and music cataloging ability. Right now I haven't seen anything better as far as usability goes. Sonically it's pretty good and enjoyable to listen to. I know the sonics can be improved and hopefully the software can be improved upon.

I have looked into that Panel already... I agree its gorgeous and perfect in almost all respects... But where it fails is price. Its a ready made peice. Im more interested in a straight from the factory raw model... When i put this project together i want to make it a custom project, including the case that will house the monitor and computer, DVD drive etc...

By the way thanks... I know its very ambitious, and a huge undertaking... NOT THE HARDWARE, but the software side of it... But my back ground is electronics and little bit in robotics... My friend is the true software guy... I know a little, but he will be the one doing almost all the software work... I hope to have this done in a year, but that depends on how much time he can help with it at any given time.... But he likes the idea, and as i said he is the type thats up to challenges...

Secondly I agree the Sooloos is the big boy on the block, and there are always ways to improve everything, but I think there software is great as is. It might some how degrade the sound, but i really could not say. But if it does it cant be by that much and the interface is worth it anyways. Hardware wise, well I could not say either unless you swapped out parts for others and then listened... example the MOBO, soundcard, DAC... I personally have nothing bad to say about the product expect it has a massive markup over the cost to built, since as i said the parts are off the shelf type stuff minus there DAC and software.

And on a side note if i wanted to improve the sonics of the Sooloos i would not waste my time swapping the Mobo, The only things i would swap are the soundcard and DAC...

By they that brings up a good question... I never read any reviews or comparison on soundcards on this sight, and if there are, i have not come across them yet... Everyone just seems set on the LYNX AES16... Maybe just because no one knows of any other high end soundcards maybe. Or have others been reviewed... I only ask because its almost like no one is actively looking to find better soundcards, you know the same way most, if not all audiophiles are always looking for better equipment in there other componets, examples CD player, amps, cables, speakers etc... Anyways it was just a thought

Cam

Hi Cam - I've actually been researching sound cards for a couple years. I'm sure there are cards available that I'm unaware of, but not many :~) I've used a few of them and know colleagues who've used many others. The search for a better card should never end.

I can say I've run into more issues with other cards than one could imagine. Sample rate support is shoddy and website information is absolutely incorrect on some manufacturer's sites. It's a pain to find this out after two days of working on a card.

Have you reviewed any of the the RME cards... I see allot of potential in a couple of them in there Hammerfall line up?

I've talked to several industry engineers about the RME cards and put off getting one for a while. However, I have one coming in this week. The 9632 should be here in a few days.

Crazy you should say that... thats the one i had in mind exactly... Even funnier, that is the Card that is located in the Sooloos... Which is how i became so curious about it in the first place... But what makes it cooler is all the expanission boards the company offers that you can attach to it... The Word Clock modul in particular

Good luck on your endeavor Cam.

"Its the software i can't reproduce." You don't have to; J. River did it for you - for $40. Through in a touch PC and a small client, then DAC, you're free (from iTunes - it feels SO good to say that).

I'm convinced J. river is the poor man's Soloos system; especially given the Library Server features.

Great point about the uber-powerful HTPCs out there.
I just went form a Q6600 quad-core HTPC/Music Server which I built 2-3 years ago (?) and I built a system around a mini-ITX board with 120w PSU.

Could be fanless but since I have an Addonics box with 5 drives in the cabinet too, I have fans. Drilled some holes in the back for airflow, and I can't hear the fans; the fridge in the kitchen is louder (which I can vaguely hear on my couch). I got a slim client for my MagicJack and was impressed at its silence so I do appreciate the silence of a small yet powerful client. I still want some power on my master server/system though (all 120w! - running a 2.4gHz dual core 45watt AMD cpu).

In terms of usability you can not beat J. River; people are probably sick of me preaching about it, but the fact is that offers so much customization as to be jaw-dropping. I pull meta-data in from YADB, CDDB, and YADB and then modify things myself or use MusicBrainz or Jaikoz to clean up lyrics and year fields.

I want full control of my gui and metadata, and I want it at work and in the kitchen. I just added an HP Touchsmart in the kitchen, and it's integrating nicely with the master system via Library Server.

Remember that not every wants a low power server. Analyzing for ReplayGain or just an .ape Verify, even when multi-threaded will need some serious mips. Now with dxva working though we don't need much power for high-def video over LAN. I was streaming 8000kbps? (1080P) material over the LAN with 6% cpu usage on the Touchsmart using J. river Library Server. A lot of guys want to have a server/HTPC/gaming rig all in one and want the cpu on steroids, but I agree with having simple low-power clients.

Last time I looked at the Lynx, have they changed anything on it since it came out? The EMU stuff is rock solid; used it for years. I currently use an externally powered, modded for BNC EMU1616M. Patchmix is very flexible as I'm sure the Lynx stuff is.

The WASAPI option for USB DACs like Rankins (which kick @SS) seems like such a simple route (then enable play-from-memory in J. River). I don't use the USB on my NOVA as it is limited to 44kHz, but the USB DACs are effective and simple imo.

I plan on adding a 5th PC here and it will be a small mini-ITX or atom based PC the size of the mac mini and it will run J. River Library Server which will enable it to pull up to 24/192 from the LAN....it's only limited to what DAC I use and how I integrate it to the PC. All this at a fraction of the cost of mainstream setups.

I don't want to suggest you don't rock some open-sourced project out but I will keep preaching about MC14 because it just keeps getting better.

The Library Server also has a new feature enabling any client to act as a remote for the master; the possibilities are endless. You don't need just PCs in the mix as MC14 can output to any number of sound devices as unique zones; they have even added DLNA to their uPnP support.

Theater View in J. River is nice, but I like standard view given that I can configure all kinds of ways of looking at my music. I honestly cringe when I see the pricetag on Soloos and the limitations of the view schemes.

I did want to make a final point about the need for a good soundcard. I happen to have a PCI slot in my brand new mini-ITX board so I could use the EMU1616M. But do we really need a high end card just for pushing to a DAC? I doubt it. This opens up another can of worms regarding tos. vs. coax etc. I did happen to mod my setup for BNC for the link between Sabre DAC and 1616M and I justify my card as I use it for ADC as well. That's why I think the USB DACs are effective; we buy $300+ cards just to push to a DAC, and might as well even get an external card if one is that concerned about how the digital data begins its journey.

I used to have an OriginAE X11 HTPC case; nice stuff. I could justify the cost of that touchscreen model when I just picked up a full 20" touchscreen PC for $800. I would also rather keep using my iPhone (Rivermote) or Gyration remote (or mouse) for controlling my server's zones.

What does Soloos do with a CD not found in its database btw? On-screen keyboard for manual metadata entry?

Thanks for your support...

It seems you and i think allot on the subject...

The mini-ITX route i believe is the way to go... The MOBO i am seriously considering is a DUAL ATOM with the Nvidia ION built on board as the GPU... This board can Handle any HIDEF content available today. Hell you can even play Games on it if you wanted lol.

You should look into the Dual ATOM ION combo MOBO for your new computer... As far as i can tell its the best mini-ITX board out there right now... The dual Atom still draws low power, i think 8w. The ION replacing the Intel Chipset is just the icing on the cake. And they all have built in wireless, and tonnes and i mean tonnes of inputs.... something like 10 USB 2.0, 5 SATA, 1 HDMI, they have 5.1 or 7.1 audio, take up to 8 gigs of RAM (SWEEEEEET) anyways you get the picture... This little sucker can be made into a tiny HTPC if you want, So it will easily handle a 24/192 if its being used as a Music server... Soooooo flexable, i love all the inputs on such a tiny MOBO... This mini-ITX can do it all.

thanks

oh ya, im going to look into this software... The music server i was talking about is nothing i can do overnight.... but until then i want to build something i can use right now... Im going to use that dual atom ion mobo i was telling you about and build a tiny all in one HTPC/Music server and i think this software is exactly what i was looking for. I never knew about it...thanks for telling me about it... I still want to build my own interface, but until we get that software built, this will be great to have... looks pretty cool so far.

Awesome. I use a JNC81 from Jetway, and I think I could stuff in a quad-core Phenom but probably won't ever. Mine has the HD3200 like the Touchsmart. Decent graphics set that does 1080P for me easily.

That board sounds great. It is a great time for building that's for sure and I too love the mini-ITX.

That's why I kinds of like Firewire/USB DACs even though I don't use one; it's going to be tough to stuff in a PCI card to these PCs as they keep getting smaller. Or just use Toslink or S/PDIF converter to push to an external DAC.

I currently have a laptop running Vista connected to a pre/pro via USB. I'm using Windows Media Player as my playback software. All music was ripped to the laptop's harddrive. The laptop has access to the Internet via Linksys wireless router. This wireless router has ports for physical connection as well.

I've continued to add CDs to the laptop and now I'm out of space.

If I connect a NAS device to the Linksys I'm assuming I'll be able to see and access that NAS as a network drive from my laptop. Therefore, if my music files are stored on the NAS I'm also assuming that I can play that music just as if it were on the laptop's harddrive.

Will this work? Will the music file data flow continuously and fast enough so that play back is uninterrupted? Will the quality of the sound degrade for any reason?

I realize that I could just attach and external drive directly to the Laptop but there are other PCs in the house that could take advantage of the NAS as the source of all music files.

Thanks for any feedback

Yes, you attach a NAS to your network and you can play files directly from it. You can mount it from a network drive. Some NAS boxes, such as VortexBox, will also let your access your music in other ways such as directly though iTunes or on a UPnP device.

Once your music is on a NAS you can access it from multiple machines at once.

Thanks. As you no doubt can tell by my question I'm very new to this. I didn't know if the speed of the data transfer happening wirelessly would affect the playback or cause any drop outs. Or is the speed of the NAS itself an issue? Should I look for a minimum RPM of 5400 or 7200? Are there any key features or functionality I should be looking for?So many questions.

Would someone please explain how to use NAS in a music system? I use a Mac G5 running Amarra/iTunes; and I've invested in a solid-state drive where I have (only) my music stored.

Assuming that I owned a NAS like Chris', then how would I store my music files on it? Say, if I were ripping a CD: How does iTunes (?) know to put it on the NAS? Once music is on it, and I want to play some music stored on the NAS, then how do I access it (with iTunes)? Will the music then run from the (spinning) NAS or is there some way to conveniently move it to my solid-state drive; or, in using a NAS do I give up using it?

Hi Chris
First post for me. Thank you for the excellent knowledge base you are creating here!

I wondered - why have you chosen a 16 channel sound card as your preferred PCI card, when there are 4 chanel cards from Lynx also?

Have I missed something? I would have thought that the card only ever takes one stereo input - ie 2 channels? It seems odd to have all that additional hardware on the card, and it won't be free - the AES16 is quite expensive.

Sorry if I am being stupid.
Regards
Julian

Hi Julian - Thanks for the kind words. I wish there was a better Lynx card for two channel audio but there isn't. The AES16 supports up to 24/192 digital output whereas the other cards do not. All the extra antennae and extra circuitry on the board can't help :~) If Lynx developed a two channel card with the same sample rate capability I'd take a look at it immediately.

Hi Chris
Thank you for your prompt response, so - yes I had missed the obvious sample rate differences. Oops!

I forgot to ask - sorry - on your CA04 pc based music server you were quite happy with iTunes. On your latest PC server you have opted for Media Monkey.

What made you switch?

Would iTunes still work well with a Lynx AES16e on a PC ?

Also - have you discounted ethernet connection as a way of avoiding the default sound card on PCs? Linn do some network connected media servers (they are 24/192 compatible and have optical outs so you can ignore the dac if it is inferior. I am not sure if they handle AIFF - their web seems to say they handle wav and flac).

Thanks and regards
Julian

Hi Julian - The CA04 along with the others are designed to make entry into computer audio pretty easy. One can always improve :~) MediaMonkey allows much better configuration and bit perfect output without crossing one's fingers. Now I am actually using JRiver and think I may make the switch on all my PC servers to JRiver. Technology always leapfrogs the competition. What is good today will be bested by the competition tomorrow :~) iTunes will work with the Lynx on a PC but you'd be much better off with JRiver.

I am very interested in what Linn is doing and really like its Ethernet implementation. I'd like to get the new Linn integrated with Ethernet in here for review.

How's the progress on the linux project? THe intel Mobo looks interesting. Any other boards like this that you found in your search? Better/worse? I was looking for something a bit more mainstream than the alix, so i can order off ncix.com. What kind of HD would you use with these? I am thinking about getting a smaller computer going with linux (Crunchbang or arch perhaps). I am just not sure what i want to do with the HD (usb stick, flash drive, ssd, etc) to keep the computer smaller and fanless.

IamKirk,
Linux runs really well on an SSD drive although it should run off a flash drive as well. The performance is way better on SSD though. I have used a small Atom box and also a Fit-PC2 to build Linux based music servers and they both work well. The Fit-PC2 draws only 6 watts of power including a hard drive. Check out my media server Linux distro, VortexBox. We have now have a software player based on mpd working as well.

I use an Asus MB with my Vortexbox/Linux unit and it works out great! Andrew and I have also found good use for dual core processors with lots of cache on these units;) I have used hdd and ssd on and they are more or less the same, but I do prefer the ssd. I guess you could use a usb or flash drive, but I would use sata drives if your going with a main stream MB.

Jesus R
www.sonore.us

Hi agillis - Please don't advertise your product via comments here on Computer Audiophile. It's a slap in the face to the manufacturers and dealers who have paid to support the site.