Submitted by The Computer Au... on Sun, 10/11/2009 - 19:31
The Ayre Acoustics QB-9 asynchronous USB DAC is currently one of the hottest products around. Everyone is listening to it or talking about it. In fact I did both at the Computer Audiophile Symposium in June at Fantasy Studios. My first impression of the QB-9 was so good that I asked Ayre's Steve Silberman about using the DAC in one of the very high-end systems at the Symposium. I assured Steve that the rest of the system would be completely capable of faithfully reproducing the analog output from the QB-9. Thus, the QB-9 was connected to a Mac Mini, a nice preamp and pair of amps, and Magico v3 loudspeakers. Based on the Symposium attendees' reactions to the sound and my countless hours of listening to the DAC in several different systems I completely understand why the Ayre Acoustics QB-9 asynchronous USB DAC has everyone talking. The reason this DAC is so hot is because it's so good.
Hit The Ground Running
At CES 2009 Ayre Acoustics introduced the QB-9 to the world. Ever since that show the DAC has continued to gain in popularity. This gain in popularity can be tough to accomplish. Some manufacturers introduce products at CES and talk about them, and talk about them, and talk about them, building incredible hype. This often backfires as there is a huge hype-hurdle to jump when the product is finally released. Everyone expects everything from such an over-hyped product. Ayre on the other hand bet on the QB-9's performance and let it speak for itself. The DAC was setup in a fully functional system at CES where people were free to tap the touch screen of a Mac Mini to select music they wanted to hear. Nothing generates great press like a great performing product and the CES demo got the ball rolling for Ayre's QB-9. Since CES there hasn't been much talk from Ayre itself but there's been a groundswell of Internet chatter and talk amongst those in the industry. I can't count the number of times I've been asked, "Have you heard the new Ayre DAC yet?" Since this DAC is only being reviewed by a few writers in 2009, I took the question seriously and assumed the person hadn't heard the QB-9. After listening to the QB-9 for a lengthy period of time I started to ask others in the industry, "Have you heard the new Ayre DAC yet?" However, when I asked people if they'd heard the DAC it was more of a statement than a question. I knew what the QB-9 was capable of and I likely tipped my hand by the way I spoke. Either way I communicated my positive thoughts about the QB-9.
Differentiation Is In The Details
The Ayre Acoustics QB-9 is unlike most USB DACs on the market today. It's one of only a handful of USB DACs using asynchronous transfer mode and it's a solid state design. In a recent article here on Computer Audiophile titled Asynchronicity I delved into the differences between USB transfer modes used by USB DACs. The following information from that article should be helpful for readers unfamiliar with the concepts of Adaptive and Asynchronous USB transfer modes.
"The main thing to keep in mind when reading about adaptive and asynchronous USB modes is clocking. Clocking is extremely important with digital audio. Many digital audio experts agree that keeping the clock as close to the DAC as possible, or using a master clock for all digital components is the way to achieve the most accurate sound. In consumer high-end audio as well as professional audio clocking is a major concern and very often external master clocks are used to achieve the best sound.
Asynchronous USB DACs are few and far between. Currently Ayre, Wavelength, and dCS are the major manufacturers with asynchronous products on the market. In my opinion the reason for this lack of async DACs is simply because it's very difficult implement this technology. There is a specific skill set required to implement asynchronous USB and it's not common place in high-end audio. Implementing async USB requires a manufacturer to write its own software for the TAS1020 chip and invest thousands of hours on this part of the DAC alone. The limited number of manufacturers who've decided to take on this task instead of going with a plug n' play chip are doing it because they think the performance gains far outweigh the development pain.
Asynchronous USB essentially turns the computer into a slave device as opposed to adaptive USB which does the opposite. Thus, an asynchronous USB DAC has total control over the timing of the audio. One very important feature of asynchronous USB mode is bidirectional communication between the computer and the DAC. The computer sends audio and the DAC sends commands or instructions for the computer to follow. For example the computer's clock becomes less accurate over a given period of time and can send too much data too quickly and fill up the buffer. Asynchronous DACs will instruct the computer to slow down, thus avoiding any negative effects of a full, or empty, buffer which can manifest itself into audible dropouts and pops or clicks. According to Wavelength Audio the tail is no longer wagging the dog when using asynchronous USB mode. Plus all of this is done without additional device drivers or software installation."
Ayre Acoustics currently licenses the Streamlength Asynchronous USB code from Wavelength Audio. Even though Ayre and Wavelength share the same Streamlength Asynchronous USB code in their USB DACs most other design elements differ quite a bit. The most obvious difference is the QB-9's solid state design. However, The QB-9 is not just a solid state version of a Wavelength DAC. Wavelength uses custom filters on the new Sabre32 board and its Wolfson parts use different filters than the typical sharp units found in most DACs. Ayre uses its Minimum Phase digital filter. The MP filter used in the QB-9 is the result of extensive research by Ayre into improving compromises with pre and post ringing in typical digital filters. Typical "Brickwall" filters have about ten cycles of pre and post ringing.
To help readers understand a bit about this ringing concept here is my layman's cheat-sheet.
A pre-ring results in audible pre-echos
A post-ring results in audible post-echos
Pre and post echos are audible sounds that surround an actual event like an invigorating transient. Pre-echo >> Transient >> Post-echo. A live performance has no such thing as pre and post echos such as those involved in analog to digital conversion. An easy way to think of this pre and post ringing concept involves the Super Bowl. There is a pre-game show (pre-echo), the actual game (musical transient), and a post game show (post-echo). If one only wants to watch the actual game, the pre and post game shows should be eliminated. Brickwall filters can't eliminate the pre and post game shows. They force one to watch the pre game, game, and post game. Watching all three certainly detracts from the actual event if that's all one wants. Listening to an audio track one certainly doesn't want to hear pre-echoes and post-echoes in addition to the wonderful transients that are supposed to be reproduced. If the goal is to recreate a musical event in one's home then we must use components that drastically reduce these echos. The Ayre MP filter is somewhat equivalent to watching only the Super Bowl game and a small snippet of the post game show. Instead of ten cycles of pre-ringing and ten cycles of post-ringing, the MP filter has zero pre and only one cycle of post-ringing. To my ears this sounds like a highlight reel where only the best of the best is heard.
In addition to the MP filter the QB-9 has fully balanced discrete circuitry and what's called the Ayre Conditioner. The Ayre Conditioner is a non-ferrous RF power line filter developed in-house at Ayre. A huge benefit of using a built-in RF power line filter is that the listener is virtually guaranteed this filter improves the sound. Ayre is not going to add features to its own product that decrease fidelity. The same cannot be said of external RF power line filters or conditioners. Third party filters or conditioners can make wonderful improvements in one's sound system, but the products must be designed to work with many different components on the market. Finding a power product that is a perfect match for one specific component can be difficult. Finding a power product that is a perfect match for all of one's components is even tougher. Thus, the value of the built-in Ayre Conditioner RFI power line filter should not be underestimated.
One other factor in the QB-9's increasing popularity is that this DAC is getting more and more mainstream dealers interested in computer based audio. Ayre has been a well known brand for over seventeen years. It has a wide dealer network penetrating many different markets. Ayre is a Blue-chip company. When it releases products people can expect a very high level of quality and support. Thus, I've received emails from Ayre dealers about music servers and Ayre customers saying their dealer is really trying to get into computer based audio and has the QB-9 on display in a very good system. These are all very positive things in my opinion and have not only contributed to the QB-9's popularity, but the industry as a whole.
System Integration & Listening
I've listened to the Ayre QB-9 in more than a few systems since I received the review sample. Not only have I tried it with a plethora of components here in my listening room, I brought it with me to a colleague's studio in Northern California. There I listened to the QB-9 through an MSB and TAD based system. I really like the sound of TAD loudspeakers and the QB-9 made the listening session a great experience. The most impressed I've been with the QB-9 was at the inaugural Computer Audiophile Symposium at Fantasy Studios in June, 2009. The complete system was as follows.
Magico V3 speakers, Ayre QB9 Asynchronous USB DAC with WireWorld prototype USB cable to a Mac Mini, WireWorld Silver Eclipse 6 Single-ended, (RCA), from the Ayre QB9 to Mbl 6010D preamp, WireWorld Silver Eclipse 6 balanced interconnect from preamp to Mbl 9007 mono power amps, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 6 speaker wire to the Magico V3 speakers. All power cords in this system were Wireworld Silver Electra Power 2 meter. External music was stored on a Thecus N7700 NAS drive with Seagate ES hard drives.
The goals of this system were great sound, ease of use, and great aesthetics. Many people can't or don't want to put a large Mac Pro desktop computer with a Lynx card in their living room or listening room. Thus the QB-9 / Mac Mini combination was a no-brainer. It's simple to use, sounds great, and looks great.
By far most of my listening was done here in my listening room. The winning combination I settled on for the most critical listening was the QB-9 connected to an Ayre AX-7e Integrated Amp, with Verity Audio loudspeakers. My Mac Pro desktop running OS X Leopard and later Snow Leopard with iTunes & Amarra was used for much of my listening as it's my current go-to computer for most listening.
The Ayre QB-9 is incredibly simple to use. It has one USB input and both balanced XLR and single ended RCA analog outputs. There's no rocket science involved when making the physical connections from computer and to preamp. Using Mac OS X the software setup is just as easy. In the Audio Midi Setup application the QB-9 needs to be selected as the output device. A couple clicks and configuration is complete and bit transparent music is ready to flow into the listening room.
The sound of the Ayre QB-9 was just as I expected from an Ayre component at this level in the Ayre line-up, it was great. Most of the music I listen to does not hit the extreme ends of the frequency chart. I don't listen to test disks for fun that's for sure. Thus the Ayre performed stellar 99.9% of the time. Remember, there is no such thing as an Ayre Acoustics all-out-assault DAC for $2500. There are bound to be some design compromises to hit this price point. The only faults of the QB-9 are the extreme highs lacked ultimate separation and resolution and the very bottom end frequencies were a tad smeared in my system and in my dedicated listening room. Everything in between was stellar. At $2500 the QB-9 is a great DAC. Music has a wonderful flow to it when played through the QB-9. I was not straining at all to hear the fine details of the new Beatles remasters. The Ayre QB-9 brought the music to me in all its glorious detail. Switching from the 16/44.1 Beatles collection to some 24/88.2 and 96k material delivered an even more pleasing experience. The QB-9 changes sample rates on-the-fly instantly. Users will hear no gap in playback like some DACs that take their time switching from sample rate to sample rate. Since recommending the Stone Temple Pilots DVD-A album Core to some of the Computer Audiophile readers, I've been listening to it quite a bit. I've ripped the files to 24/96 WAVs then converted them to AIFF via the Max application so I can add metadata and album art to the files in iTunes. This album sounded awesome through the QB-9. I know some of the more traditional audiophiles may be jumping out of their skin right now asking (the following should be read out loud in a Thurston Howell, III voice) "How he can judge the quality of components with such abrasive Rock and Roll?" When one is intimately familiar with certain albums it is simple to evaluate components with this material and the differences in sound are identifiable immediately. Continuing my Rock and Roll high resolution road, I ripped Neil Young's Greatest Hits DVD to 24/96 WAV files and followed the same conversion process to AIFF. Again, the sound was great, listening was easy, and I didn't even have to think about the components in my system. There was no offensive sounds coming from anywhere. The QB-9 and AX-7e combination is extremely musical and very transparent. One thing I have really noticed about this asynchronous USB device is the way the music just flows to the listener. There is no leaning on the edge of the chair to hear the music or straining to hear the opening and closing of microphone channels before and after certain vocal recordings. It's all there and all served right to the listener. During my listening sessions I listened to a fair amount of acoustic Jack Johnson albums. Again, the music was right in the QB-9's wheelhouse. Jack's guitar sounded so real, almost like Jack was in the room sitting behind one of the Verity loudspeakers. This was some of the best sounding acoustic guitar I've heard in my system in recent memory. Flowing, accurate, and easy is a good description for listening to music through the Aye QB-9.
Readers of Computer Audiophile know that my listening room as recently become the land of Asynchronicity. I have so many asynchronous USB products here that it's difficult to get excited about some of the good adaptive USB products currently on the market. During the review period I compared the QB-9 to the Wavelength Cosecant, Wavelength Proton, and dCS U-Clock asynchronous USB to S/PDIF converter connected to my Alpha DAC and the dCS Paganini DAC. Listening to The Beatles remastered Mono box set via the QB-9 and the Wavelength Cosecant was a very telling experience. I wish everyone who was considering these two DACs could listen to this material via each DAC side by side. In the simplest terms, if you like tubes you'll prefer the Cosecant. If you prefer solid state components the QB-9 will be the instant hands down winner. I will say the Cosecant's warmth made the Mono box set sound as close to vinyl as I've ever heard in any system. But, is that accurate or just what some listeners prefer? I have no idea, that's for each listener to decide. A major difference between the dCS combinations I used and the QB-9 DAC was soundstage, and of course tens of thousands of dollars. The dCS and Alpha DAC had a very deep transparent soundstage, and much larger price tag, that the QB-9 just couldn't match. There was no hearing all the way to the back of the hall during an orchestral performance with the QB-9, but one can't have it all without paying for it.
Two other products readers are likely considering when researching the $2500 Ayre QB-9 DAC are the Bryston BDA-1 and the Benchmark DAC1 HDR. The Benchmark DAC1 HDR is a wonderful component that can be considered a jack of all trades. It has a remote control, volume control, analog input, several digital inputs, and a headphone amplifier all in one chassis. In addition to these features the DAC1 HDR uses an adaptive USB implementation developed with CEntrance. Some readers could use the aforementioned data to make a purchasing decision already. If you want all the extra features, and circuitry, the DAC1 HDR is your component. On-the-other-hand the QB-9 is at a big sonic advantage with its asynchronous USB implementation and the fact that is does one thing and one thing only. It receives digital data via its USB input and converts it to analog audio. Comparing the sound of the DAC1 HDR to the sound of the Ayre QB-9 is a pretty simple task. The DAC1 HDR has the CEntrance adaptive USB "house sound" and the DAC1 HDR is extremely tight, a little edgy, lacks the decay of the best DACs, and can be a tad fatiguing during long listening sessions if the listener isn't used to its presentation. The Ayre QB-9 sounds vastly different just as I described earlier in the review. The music flows unhindered right to the listeners ears with a sense of rightness that the adaptive USB DACs just don't have yet. Not only is the QB-9's asynchronous USB implementation and advantage, but the analog output stage in the QB-9 is very strong. Comparing the QB-9 to the Bryston BDA-1 via memory only I sense that the BDA-1 lacked a little something in its analog output stage. I remember saying the sound of the BDA-1 wasn't all that different between its numerous digital inputs. I tend to think this has to do a little with homogenization of the sounds all traversing through the same analog output stage in addition to other internal circuitry. The Bryston BDA-1 is a really good DAC, but I favor the Ayre QB-9's sound in my system.
Thousands of Miles and Hundreds of Hours Later
The QB-9 asynchronous USB DAC is Ayre's first entry into the USB DAC market. Based on performance Ayre has hit a home run on its first plate appearance. Asynchronous USB is currently the technology to beat in the USB DAC arena. Ayre made a very wise decision to release a product when the time and technology was right. Ayre did not go down the adaptive USB path just to release a product and sell units in a down economy. Again you're not going to get Ayre's all-out assault for $2500, but you will get a DAC that is incredibly pleasing and accurate. A sense of ease emanates from the QB-9. This translates into wonderfully relaxing listening sessions where one can forget about the components and get lost in the music without even trying. I hope listeners have a couple hours to spare each time they sit down to listen via the QB-9. Time flies when Sonny Rollins is whaling on his tenor sax or Beck is weaving a unique story with his lyrics and great sounding instruments. Thanks to Ayre for contributing to my musical enjoyment over the last few months and congratulations for making the Computer Audiophile Suggest Hardware (CASH) list with the QB-9 asynchronous USB DAC.
Associated Equipment: Mac Pro, Lynx AES16e card, Kimber USB cable v1 & v2, Benchmark DAC1 PRE & HDR, Kimber Select cable, Verity Audio Fidelio loudspeakers, McIntosh tube amplification, Virtual Dynamics power cables, Richard Gray's Power Company cables, dCS Paganini DAC, dCS U-Clock, Devilsound DAC v2, Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC, Wavelength Audio Proton & Cosecant, Ayre AX-7e Integrated Amp, Windows XP "Music Server for a Song."
Mac Pro detailed specs:
Model Name: Mac Pro
Model Identifier: MacPro3,1
Processor Name: Quad-Core Intel Xeon
Processor Speed: 2.8 GHz
Number Of Processors: 2
Total Number Of Cores: 8
L2 Cache (per processor): 12 MB
Memory: 10 GB
Bus Speed: 1.6 GHz
Boot ROM Version: MP31.006C.B05
SMC Version (system): 1.25f4
System Version: Mac OS X 10.6.1 (10B504)
Kernel Version: Darwin 10.0.0
Boot Volume: Macintosh HD
Boot Mode: Normal
Computer Name: Mac Pro Music Server
User Name: Chris Connaker (Chris)
Secure Virtual Memory: Not Enabled
64-bit Kernel and Extensions: No
Solid State Hard Drive - MemoRight GT Series 2.5 64GB SATA SLC SSD
Gigabit Ethernet direct connection to Thecus N5200B Pro NAS
Digital I/O - Lynx AES16e w/ custom HD26 to XLR AES/EBU cable
Software - iTunes with Amarra from Sonic Studio
__________________
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Nice review, Chris.
Congrats to Charlie (and Gordon) on pushing the envelope of computer audio beyond the transport-to-DAC (aka legacy) era.
Any thoughts on comparison with the Minerva?
As for the 'house sound' of the Centrance code, I thought your description matched pretty well the Benchmark 'house sound' - lean, clean and clinical. Are you sure it's the Centrance, and not the Benchmark, or does the Benchmark have a different sound via other inputs?
clay
Hi Clay - I think CEntrance plays a big role in the sound via USB. The other CEntrance based units I've used have a similar sound. Other interfaces on the Benchmark certainly sound different but very close to what I call the CEntrance house sound. It could be a few combinations and others sound like Benchmark. I'm making my statement based on what I've heard plus a little research. I could be incorrect. It's a good discussion point.
A longitudinal study could be conducted, but I'm moving on to other topics :~)
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
I haven't read through the whole review yet. But text search did not find the word "Weiss".
Did you do the obvious comparison between this DAC and the Weiss Firewire DAC2/Minerva? They are in similar price range and I am sure many will be interested to hear how they compare.
DIGITAL:
Macbook Pro--MacMini--Weiss DAC202
Squeezebox Touch--Weiss DAC202
Cambridge 650BD--Weiss DAC202
Analogue:
Weiss DAC202--(Naim NAC282/HiCap/NAPSC)--Naim NAP200--Harbeth Monitor 30 on Skylan Stands, Sennheiser HD580 with Cardas cord
Airport Express--Meridian AD88
Hi agentsmith - I have not listened to or used a Weiss DAC2. I reviewed the Minerva quite a while ago and at close to $5,000 it's about double the cost of the QB-9. Plus, I don't have the Minerva here any more so comparison from memory with a component that I haven't used in a long time is tough. I couldn't compare the QB-9 to everything so I selected my components and went with it. There is always room for a follow-up to the review :~)
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
I think you nailed it Chris. Thanks for a great review.
david is hear
http://www.tuniverse.tv
Thanks Chris. Regarding the pricing I believe the DAC2 is probably a better comparison of the Ayre DAC since as far as I know the street price of the two is only about 10-20% difference. On top of that the DAC2 also has other inputs so as I view the DAC2 is in the same price class as the Ayre.
I would love to hear your view if you come across a chance to compare the two. May be Daniel can help arrange for a match? Although I think the Weiss DACs are in short supply as I waited almost 3 months for my DAC2, it was worth it though.
DIGITAL:
Macbook Pro--MacMini--Weiss DAC202
Squeezebox Touch--Weiss DAC202
Cambridge 650BD--Weiss DAC202
Analogue:
Weiss DAC202--(Naim NAC282/HiCap/NAPSC)--Naim NAP200--Harbeth Monitor 30 on Skylan Stands, Sennheiser HD580 with Cardas cord
Airport Express--Meridian AD88
I was so excited to see a new review. As always, it was a great read! Thanks.
I do have one question though. I love the sound of tubes and am saving up for my first Mcintosh piece, the MC 275 -by coincidence, the same one you have :) Is there such a difference between a solid state DAC such as the Ayre and a tube DAC like the Cosecant? I would have guessed having tubes in the amp and pre-amp, it might not matter so much whether the DAC were solid state or not.
I guess you like the tube sound too although you do use the SS Alpha. Pardon my simple questions. I am sure I am still very green.
thanks
Chris,
Thanks for the review and associated equipment update. Just so I am sure I got this straight, in essence, the QB-9 is a TiVO for the listening room? Pre and Post ringing are audio commercials I no longer have to listen to? Considering my feelings about watching TV without TiVO, SIGN ME UP! Additionally, has your system changed at all since your extensive review of the Berkeley? Could the soundstage differences be due to room or equipment changes, or is all else stable since the review? My view of the two was that run through the same pre, they were similar sounding, but that with the Berkeley run directly into the power amp its main improvement was not in sound, but in soundstage. Any comment?
Again, Chris- thanks.
And thanks Gordon and Charlie, too.
So take that, Mr. Taffel...
G5 PowerMac 1.6Ghz, 4 GB RAM, 2 Internal Seagate 7200 RPM 1TB HDs / Lynx AES16 PCI / Gotham Audio 110 Ohm Digital IC / Berkeley Audio Alpha DAC / Cardas Cross IC / Musical Fidelity KW 750 / Cardas Cross / Magnepan MG 3.6r / Custom purpose built listening room
Note: Comment removed. User appeared to be trolling under two different names.
- Chris
Chris, thanks very much!
I have listened to a not fully broken in QB9 and a full broken in Weiss for the last couple of days.
Interesting enough I have the same impression regarding bass with QB9. Although it did matter quite a bit, what kind of power cord I am using. With some power cords especially the transient response of e.g. an acoustic bass was much better than with others. These cables tend to sound a bit leaner. But my conclusion is, that it has to do a lot with roomacoustics.
I listened to the weiss now, for almost 10 days. The Minerva is a wonderful piece of gear and I was about to pull the trigger but then got the chance to audition the qb9...
In my system (Macbook Pro, Amarra, (Weiss and QB9), HMS and lessloss PowerCables and XLR Cables, ADAM AUdio active speakers) using the volume control of Amarra (The weiss volume control seems to be a bit more dynamic than Amarra) the weiss produces a very analog sounding picture. Even not so good ambiences are produced very listenable, Instruments are in Place, Voices stand right between my speakers, the sound is involving and it never is unnerving. That is with 16bit 44,1 khz. What really makes the weiss sing is Material at high samplingrates. All the samples on this site were used and the useal suspects vom HRX. Wow. But allthough most of the material used is brandnew I had the impression, that it sounded just a bit too analogue almost old????. In direct comparisson to analouge (Technics and TW Acustic Raven) my turntables sound a bit more alive. Nevertheless, the weiss unit is among the best Digital I have ever listened to (I havent listened to all the ultraexpensive gear except the top of the line Meridian and Soolos Music Server, Krell CD Player, Audionet).
When I introduced the QB9 in my system, I had plenty of detail, plenty of room, very accurate pinpoint imaging, but very analytical sound. This improved after I gave the unit 24 Hours of Isotek burn in coupled with classic, rock and pop CDs in constant rotation - I thought, "good resolution but without the emotional quality of the weiss. More burning in. Then yesterday evening, after about 72 hours of putting constant music on it, I sat down for another critical listening session. The first record I spun was Anna Netrebko "Souvenirs" Requiem - Pie Jesu. Actually I am not a classical fan and listen mostly to electronic music and jazz, but I have an idea how classical music should sound. Well it did sound the way I wanted it to sound. Those who know the record and have heard it on different systems might know that it can sound a bit cheezy, but it has orchestra and a choir in the background and it is quite a challenging task to seperate everything in the right way. I discovered that everything is in the right place. But not at first listen. I was actually overwhelmed by the emotional quality of Netrebkos Interpretation. Goose bumps. A fellow audiophile and sound engineer who stopped by to "help me with my decision" (of course!) sat there with his mouth wide open. His first comment: How much is it? His second: Thats a nobrainer? His third: I would very much like to listen to this unit in my system. His 4th: Damn, I need this record. After he listened to some records he is familiar with, he said, he really needs to listen to the qb9 in his system. He has a wadia! We played a whole variety of records including Bjork, Miles Davis, Chet Baker, some more classical music, audiophile female voices (Sara K and the likes), Zero 7, Roger Waters, ...
Same results! Spectactular! And what is most important. Not at all tiring. I could listen to very high volumes and then turn it down and still everything had weigth, the correct size, plenty of details I never knew existed in some old but familiar recordings.
Than we compared to the weiss. I was completely shocked at the difference. In my system and to my ears the difference is huge. Huge Ok but which one is better? I vote clearly for the qb9, my friend said the same.
But what are the differences. Compared to the QB9 the weiss seemed rather veiled (is that the correct english term?) If the QB9 has 100% resolution, than the Minerva has about 85% (For the first time I could understand what e.g. Maria Callas was actually singing!!!) The only thing I really liked better with the weiss, was the integration of bass in the overall picture. The best word to discribe it, is balanced or round. With the QB9 I sometimes missed some extension in the hights (maybe the MP Filter?) and the already described mushier bass (good word Chris). I listened to some records where I could not follow the basslines. I have not tried to fiddle with the placement of my speakers and have not tried using eq (It cost me weeks to find the "perfect" placement for my speakers which gave me the most musical pleasure with my analogue rig). in another post I was informed that break in might take up to 300 hours. I looked in the manual and it says 100-500 hours. So maybe bass will become more defined. But nevertheless I orderd a unit last night.
Those of you having not listened to the qb9, do so. Especially when your in the market for a DAC. Please do so. Especially in the US. I will pay 2800 Euro. The Weiss DAC 2 costs 2300 Euro in Germany. The Minerva about 3600 Euro. So for 2500 $ this seems to me like a bargain (thats 1700 Euro).
A week ago if someone would have asked me about the best digital gear, I would have answered The Weiss Minerva, today I say QB9.
By the way: without Amarra I preferred the Weiss. So maybe you should listen to different players before making a decision. Another interesting detail: Check the correct AC polarity of the QB9! The difference in my system was huge!!!! With wrong ac polarity the weiss definetly sounded better! In Germany we just reverse the plug. If you cant hear the difference you can check with a voltmeter. Can you do that with us plugs? (Maybe Mr. Hansen can chime in on this matter!)
All the best from Germany
Claudius
Charles Hansen - if you are listening - you did a marvelous job. I have auditioned quite some expensive gear in the last couple of years (Mostly Speakers, Amplifiers and analogue). But this much soundquality for so little money. Wow I will now audition your preamplifiers!
The only thing lurking in the back of my mind is: How would the qb9 compare to all the wavelength stuff? Well no chance in Germany.
Amarra 1.2, I-Tunes, Mac-Mini (4GB) SSD, Transparent Cables USB, Ayre QB-9, Octave HP-500SE, all PCs Lessloss Signature, HMS Sestetto, ADAM Pencil MK2 (active)
Lessloss blackbodies (3)
"If the QB9 has 100% resolution, than the Minerva has about 85%"
I had a chance to audition the Minerva some months ago. What was fascinating me was the resolution I heard from regular CD titles. The Minerva, through Firewire, offered the most revealing I'd experienced from hifi equipments.
100 v.s 85 ...... Claudius, you must be joking !! Do you know how high the heaven is ?
Thanks Chris and Claudius for wonderful reviews. :-)
------------------------ a snippet -----------------------
Ayre K-5xeMP Released (link here)
Date: Sunday, 31 May 2009
A ‘Maximum Performance’ (MP) version of the famous Ayre K-5xe is now available
This new version is serendipitous, since it came about only because when Ayre was developing the analogue output stage of the Ayre QB-9, it made what it calls a ‘surprising discovery’. Ayre’s Brent Hefley told Australian Hi-Fi Magazine: ‘Charlie and Ariel discovered some things that we could implement into the output stage of the K-5xe that would make a very significant improvement, so we did… and the result is that the new version is shipping now, with the same ‘MP’ logo on the front as the C-5xeMP.’
Ayre is distributed in Australia by Advance Audio. Chris Strom, of Advance, told us that existing owners of the C-5xe will be able to upgrade to the MP version, but that he hadn’t yet finalised pricing. He said that when he does, there will be two different upgrade prices: one for customers who’d purchased a C-5xe this year, and another for all other customers. ‘We will also be offering an additional option of changing the symbol buttons to alphanumeric types,’ he said. ‘I’ve already fielded calls on the question of the availability of MP upgrades for the V-5xe and P-5xe, and I’ve been advised by Ayre that it’s not working on an MP update for either of these models. However, I can say that Ayre will soon be releasing a USB DAC and updated MP series products for both the Universal player and the C-7x.’
Bordin, but just a bit! With the QB 9 i heard details I did not hear with the weiss unit. e.g.: with the weiss I could hear how Anne Sophie Mutter breathes while she is playing Mozart and I could hear the orchestra flipping the pages of their notes. With the QB9 I can hear subtle nuances of the breathing. Whereas with the weiss you hear pages beeing flipped and it sounds like a not very defined noise with the QB9 you hear lots of pages beeing flipped across the stereopanorama. With the QB9 even in Tutti passages the stability of the recorded room is rock solid. With the weiss it is not nearly as solid (With 196 Khz you have this with the weiss even better!! Check the sample of FIM. Unbelievable sound quality on that recording (again I am exaggerating ;-)).
Another example: Diana Krall playing the piano. With the QB 9 I hear every note of an accord (I dont know if this is the right word in English?). You can literally follow her hands on the piano. And I actually heard notes(!) or instruments I have not noticed before.
With the weiss I have the impression: wow thats how a piano sounds. With the QB9 its more like: Wow this is a grand piano, maybe a steinway? (I cant really tell the difference, but the soundengineer with me could)
So this is how I came to 15% Difference. Given that the Weiss is such a great dac it might paint a wrong picture. I change it to 10% difference.
Bordin, I hope heaven is even higher than this ;-).
Claudius
Amarra 1.2, I-Tunes, Mac-Mini (4GB) SSD, Transparent Cables USB, Ayre QB-9, Octave HP-500SE, all PCs Lessloss Signature, HMS Sestetto, ADAM Pencil MK2 (active)
Lessloss blackbodies (3)
I loved them both. They easily exceeded the Bryston BDA-1 that I had near the same time (more analog, more organic and musical, yet with more detail). I also listened to Gordon's Cosecant and loved it too, but the overall sound in my room was slightly bloomy (not a fault of the Cosecant but likely of the overall synergy of the room/equipment). I quickly whittled down my list to the QB-9 and DAC2. In my room, with my setup (Modwright LS 36.5 tube pre and/or Wyred STP-SE solid state pre; Spectron Musician III Mark 2 monoblocks, SP Tech Revelation speakers) the midrange colors and significant bass control of the DAC2 won out. That's not to say the QB-9 was a loser.....far from it. This is through lots of a/b'ing. Kinda like choosing flavors of a very good ice cream.....the ice cream must have certain basics covered (creamy, fatty, good chunks of flavor, no after taste, etc) but beyond that the choice of flavor is a pure personal preference. [Note: Oh, and my "detail"or resolution comapro would be DAC2 95%, QB-9 90% (the $5k Berkeley Alpha is the 100% benchmark in that category for me, but lost in the midrange). Most other less than $3k DACs aren't anywhere in the 80's in my opinion.]
Anyone who has USB as their only input ought to arrange a QB-9 demo asap.
"We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T.
Chris,
Nice review... thanks.
Did you play around with the "listen" vs. "measure" DIP switch on the rear?
Just curious if you did and what you heard if you did.
Jeff
Hi Jeff - I did not change the switch from the listen position. Something about the word "measure" turns me off when it comes to relaxing and listening to music :~) Good question though.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Chris,
The other question I was hoping somebody else would ask, since I know you can't want to answer it is:
How about Proton vs. QB-9? The Proton is half price, and USB powered. Both ss. Any comparison in sound to give us? I never really considered a proton, no local dealer. I was just wondering.
Thanks!
BTW, you must have done a good job- neither Mr. Hansen nor Mr. Rankin has chimed in yet. (Or it's Monday).
G5 PowerMac 1.6Ghz, 4 GB RAM, 2 Internal Seagate 7200 RPM 1TB HDs / Lynx AES16 PCI / Gotham Audio 110 Ohm Digital IC / Berkeley Audio Alpha DAC / Cardas Cross IC / Musical Fidelity KW 750 / Cardas Cross / Magnepan MG 3.6r / Custom purpose built listening room
I have been too lazy to try it for myself so I hope you had done the work for me!
Sorry I missed your call at RMAF.
Jeff
Hi Ted,
thats really interesting. The other way around, with resolution? Better bass control on the weiss is exactly what I hear as well. The coloration of acoustic instruments I found much better with the QB9. The Weiss has a more prominent midrange in my system. So as always one has to try in ones system.
I forgot: I used a transparent cable usb cable with the ayre and a standard Firewire 800 to 400 cable for the weiss which sounded better than a 400 to 400 cable (supplied by the german weiss representative) with a 800 to 400 FW Adapter. I did not use the much praised fw goldxcable (no way to get it in Germany). The Transparent cable provided a significant improvement! But I did not conduct critical listening tests comparing it to the standard usb cable. I tried the standard for one song than changed to the transparent, heard a significant improvement and let it stay there.
Thanks for the different opinion. I almost felt bad declaring QB9 a "winner".
Like the comparison with ice cream.
Claudius
Amarra 1.2, I-Tunes, Mac-Mini (4GB) SSD, Transparent Cables USB, Ayre QB-9, Octave HP-500SE, all PCs Lessloss Signature, HMS Sestetto, ADAM Pencil MK2 (active)
Lessloss blackbodies (3)
I too am interested in how it compares to the Proton, since the Proton uses the asynchronous technology. The Proton review didn't compare it to many DACs and paying over double for the Ayre might give a good idea of value vs performance, especially since you have both units available.
I am sure there are nuances present in the Ayre that are invisible on the Proton, but on system of components under $10k or so, is the QB-9 overkill? Or will it still outshine something like the Proton even on modest systems.
I might be a little daft. Many people tell me so, but I can't really find the QB-9 on the cash list. :)
"Last Update 06/21/2009 08:00 AM CST"
The CASH list simply hasn't been updated yet.
"We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T.
Thanks Ted :~)
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Thanks for the very thorough review. My feeling is that so much of this gear gets just so much right depending on how the gear is implemented, associated components and needless to say one's own personal tastes, that its pointless to try to spend hours trying to find - dare I say it - the Absolute Sound. I can't believe I just said that. :) Anyway, I spent a weekend with the QB-9 and the Bryston and compared them both on their USB inputs and found the Bryston to sound more open, particularly on the top end. Looking back at my post from that time reminded me that to my ears the QB-9 had some magic on vocals which I described as a tube-like dimensionality. But overall I would describe the QB-9 as just a little dark tonally in a way the Bryston wasn't. I already had a lynx card installed in the G5. So comparing the QB9/USB (USB>G5) to the Bryston/AES/EBU through the Lynx (i.e. NOT USB) sealed the deal for me in favor of the Bryston. Your mileage may vary. My speakers are Thiels which will resolve just about anything you throw at them so I was surprised at the soft top end I heard on the QB-9 which sounded recessed in that range. I have also found that cables can make a huge difference in tuning a system. I'm playing around with different interconnects: Nordost Baldaur, JPS Labs Superconductor Q and will soon have an Audience Au24E and a Kimber KACG. I would guess that a silver cable like the KACG might bring a little air into what I heard as a lack of same in the QB9s high frequencies. I never really used to believe that cables could make a difference but I know now particularly having compared the JPS and the Nordost - they can make a significant difference. I like playing the general classical repertoire to evaluate cables but also something simple and acoustic like Jennifer Warnes' Ballad of the Runaway Horse (the 25th anniversary edition of Famous Blue Raincoat) -- that is a great piece of music performed and recorded well and is very useful for cable comparisons. What Chris describes as ringing I believe is the classic digital sound that we're all trying to get away from as far as I'm concerned - its the classic fake 'decay' after the transient or after any note or sound. That gives away the source as deadly digital to me every time. I don't have a final cable choice yet but I am a firm believer now in the cable voodoo I used to snicker at. Never say never I guess.
Interesting feedback. I have also heard the Bryston, Weiss and Ayre all without Amarra.
My preference was:
DAC-2 (via firewire)
Ayre QB-9 (via usb)
BDA-1 (via usb)
I found the Bryston to be a great DAC but was let down by the USB transfer. There was little between the QB-9 and DAC-2 but thought the Weiss had the edge in my system (slightly more dynamic). The Weiss also has the flexibility of more inputs. As others have stated if possible you should demo both.
If not all 3!
Chris,
Can you share your thoughts on the PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC compared with the QB-9 asynchronous USB DAC and Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC (I know the Berkeley is your favorite reference DAC) ? I don't think you have reviewed the PS Audio PWD yet so I'm just looking for thoughts.
I'm just jumping into the digital music for my main audio and exploring DACs that are good for my application. I plan to place a server in the garage (keep the living quiet) connected to my living room via CAT 6A directly to a DAC or Mac Mini or HTPC (still trying to decide between Mini or building a HD HTPC. This decision really boils down to whether I want a pure audio system or a audio / HD video system) and then to a DAC. All intergrated to A Rotel receiver with B&W 805S speakers with JL Audio F110 sub and controlled with a Harmony 890. I'm thinking about adding a Ipod Touch to make it all headless.
As a result, I really like the concept of the PWD with my application. While the price point of $3k plus $500.00 for the IP bridge is a bit pricey I would strongerly consider for the right match to my system. However, if I go with a HD HTPC the QB-9 USB DAC or Berkeley is a better fit. As indicated by my equipment I have a small listening area (18 by 22) but value quality however, I don't need reference quality per say.
Thanks for your informative site and the blog and CASH list.
Ed
New (2010 w/ HDMI) Mac Mini > Rotel RSX-1560 > B&W 805Di>JL Audio F112
Apples and oranges:
How does it compare with the Alpha DAC?
G5->LynxAES->Berkeley Alpha DAC->Groneberg Interconnects->Odyssey Strattos Mono Block Special Editions ->Groneberg Speaker Cables ->Odyssey Lorelei floor standers
www.beresford-dac.com
Hi Ed - Welcome to Computer Audiophile. I haven't spent enough time with the PS Audio PWD or PWT yet, so I can't render an opinion. I've only seen the units at audio shows briefly and I will review one as soon as PS Audio releases the network bridge feature, which could be a while. That said, the QB-9 and the PS Audio products you mention have vastly different feature sets. If you know exactly what you need in terms of features you may be able to narrow your choices down a bit.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Chris, I am glad that you are waiting for the network "Bridge" to review the PS Audio PerfectWave DAC. The PWD performs very well as an SPDIF DAC, and it performs at a very high level when paired with the PerfectWave Transport via the I2S connection. The USB performance of the PWD does not equal its performance via SPDIF or I2S (although IMO it is at least as good as anything else out there that uses the Centrance code). I have heard reports from those that have made direct comparisons that the PWD has been at least equal in sonic performance to the Berkeley Alpha when both are receiving the same (SPDIF/AES) feed-this is only hearsay, as I have not heard this comparison myself.
Theoretically, the PerfectWave DAC should perform at least as well through the network "Bridge" as it does when paired with the PWT via I2S, and there is a good chance that the PWD with Bridge will actually outperform the PWT-I2S-PWD pair. I think the readers of Computer Audiophile will be best served by the PerfectWave DAC with the bridge as a network player, capable of very high fidelity, and playing computer audio files of all resolutions.
barrows
MacBook, Pure Music, 4 G RAM-bel canto CD1-Modded DLIII-Ayre K5xeMP-Pass X 150.5-Focus Audio FS888-
DIY Parallel AC Filter-PS Audio Modded P-300 @ 90 Hz-DIY power cables-Nordost Frey Audio Cables
Excellent review from Chris!
As he mentioned, the Qb9 is very easy to use and sounds good without looking for further improvement.
With my "legacy " ARC DAC7 I have to use an M Audio Transit (and glass optical cable) to make it sound to my liking.
If I had just tested the Usb input I think I would have bought the Qb9 and sold the Dac7...
At 2500$ the Qb9 is very well priced even though it has only one USB input.
It is a pity that 2500 $ become 3 000 € in France...
I agree the DAC sounds good, but $2500 per input makes the Alpha DAC w/ 3 inputs plus preamp & the Minerva seem like a bargain.
G5->LynxAES->Berkeley Alpha DAC->Groneberg Interconnects->Odyssey Strattos Mono Block Special Editions ->Groneberg Speaker Cables ->Odyssey Lorelei floor standers
www.beresford-dac.com
I got "Page Not Found" when clicked on it ...
Regards
Milos Dunjic
Oakville, Ontario
Canada
Why use USB DAC vs normal DAC? Still can't understand what would be the main reason to switch to a USB DAC from high quality normal DAC ... any suggestions?
Regards
Milos Dunjic
Oakville, Ontario
Canada
In many peoples opinion USB can sound better than optical.
G5->LynxAES->Berkeley Alpha DAC->Groneberg Interconnects->Odyssey Strattos Mono Block Special Editions ->Groneberg Speaker Cables ->Odyssey Lorelei floor standers
www.beresford-dac.com
Well that was embarassing. Thanks for letting me know the link was broken. I just fixed it and tested it :~)
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Nice review but I must be missing something. Seems a high price to pay for only one input option. That was one of the principle reasons - beyond overall sound quality - I opted for the Bryston. I can support all of my music and home theatre systems through it.
Do not forget the following. Say you have a Mac laptop or Mini hooked up to the QB-9 via USB, now what you have can playback digital sources many ways:
1. You can playback files that have been ripped to the computer HD
2. You can place a CD or other audio media in the drive of the computer and play it without ripping
3. You can attach an external digital source via SPDIF toslink to the digital input on the computer and playback through the QB-9
4. You can playback internet based audio, like streaming radio, through the QB-9
I am at a little bit at a loss for what other sources you might need to playback through a DAC? If you have Amarra, you can also experiment with using Amarra's volume control (which should sound just as good as that offered by the DAC2/Minerva) and forgoing a preamp if you prefer. Of course in some systems people still need/want a preamp-for analog sources.
IMO the choice between the QB-9 and DAC2 should only be based on which sound one prefers.
barrows
MacBook, Pure Music, 4 G RAM-bel canto CD1-Modded DLIII-Ayre K5xeMP-Pass X 150.5-Focus Audio FS888-
DIY Parallel AC Filter-PS Audio Modded P-300 @ 90 Hz-DIY power cables-Nordost Frey Audio Cables
You make a good point of choosing based on sound quality.
As far as other needs for inputs:
DVD or Blu-Ray (some stand alone units will best the quality of a movie played through iTunes.
Satellite or Cable box
Roku Box or Apple TV for streaming movies
Wadia digital interface for the iPod
G5->LynxAES->Berkeley Alpha DAC->Groneberg Interconnects->Odyssey Strattos Mono Block Special Editions ->Groneberg Speaker Cables ->Odyssey Lorelei floor standers
www.beresford-dac.com
Dear sir,
Why use USB DAC vs normal DAC? Still can't understand what would be the main reason to switch to a USB DAC from high quality normal DAC ... any suggestions?
SPDIF always will have residual jitter due to the nature of mixing both the clock and the data over one signal. The receiver side will always have to track the incoming clock which will cause jitter.
Jitter on the MAC Mini Optical is around 1500ps and the MacBook Pro about 1250ps.
When you use the Streamlength Asynchronous USB Code that I developed you can use very low jitter oscillators to create the I2S stream to the dac chip. This will result in jitter with numbers a lot less than 50ps.
With jitter under control you can then concentrate on the rest of the circuitry.
In Adaptive USB mode this jitter is very high, much higher than SPDIF and this is why everyone has to institute some kind of jitter elimination. But as we all know all these elimination methods merely act as filters and cannot get all the jitter out of the signal and this is why dacs with both SPDIF and Adaptive USB always measure better on SPDIF than they do on their USB ports.
Thanks
Gordon
J. Gordon Rankin
~~~~~~~~~~
Wavelength Audio
http://www.usbdacs.com/
http://www.wavelengthaudio.com/
http://www.guitar-engines.com/
Nice speakers Chris!
and thanks for the review. Well written and informative without the lolly water. Well done.
If it sounds better to you then it is better...
Thanks to everyone, especially Chris, for this great site and discussions like this one. I had been fooling around with an Apple TV ported into my home theater but wasn't really happy with the sound.
Pretty much read every thread on this site and opted to do an upgrade.
Yesterday I bought 1) This Arye DAC, 2) 13" MacBook Pro (I like having a monitor and keyboard handy even though they won't get much use after set-up) 3) A Drobo w/ 4 1 TB drives. I'll get Amarra and am currently using their demo.
Just letting the Ayre process music from a iMac right now and get some hours on it, but it's already a big improvement over my previous arrangement. My Ayre dealer's set-up is what convinced me though.
Going to recapture my CDs in AIFF unless any of you experts have a better idea. Hoping this is the final time I need to do this.
Thanks again.
MacBook Pro Laptop / Drobo / Amarra / Ayre QB-9 / Control w/ another MacBook Pro (screen sharing) or iPhone w/ "Remote."
"Going to recapture my CDs in AIFF unless any of you experts have a better idea. Hoping this is the final time I need to do this."
Bighat, or files that were ripped in a lossless format, you don't need to re-rip, just convert them. If in ALAC (Apple lossless), just select files in iTunes and 'Create Aiff version'.
If FLAC, you can use other programs to do the conversion. Max, I believe, and perhaps XLD, not sure, as I've not converted FLAC.
enjoy
clay
My OB-9 isn't even broken in and I certainly have no complaints but would like to pose a couple of questions to you folks based on remarks over the weekend from my dealer.
1. Do you think upgrades are likely for the QB-9? Dealer said it was software upgradeable and we'd probably see capability to process music above 24/94K? Anyone familiar enough with it to comment on that possibility or are there tech. issues that would preclude that from happening?
2. What are your thoughts about Ayre as a company? I have to admit my phone conversation with one of their people was very pleasant and enlightening. My dealer said that they are without peers when it comes to customer service and satisfaction and he's been a dealer since 1994. He cited a few high-end brands he could only wish were as responsive to the needs of their dealer network and customers. I always though them a good brand but was surprised to hear such a strong endorsement in comparison to some other high-end brands.
Thanks,
Matt
MacBook Pro Laptop / Drobo / Amarra / Ayre QB-9 / Control w/ another MacBook Pro (screen sharing) or iPhone w/ "Remote."
My experience is that Ayre is one of the absolute best companies in the high end. They have a policy of offering product upgrades at reasonable prices when they find a way to improve a products performance-this policy really increases the long term value of purchasing an Ayre component. Most other companies would just introduce a new model, with the customer being forced to sell their component and purchase the new version in order to take advantage of a performance improvement.
My understanding of the QB-9 is that at some point there will be an upgrade available to the DAC to handle data rates above 24/96 (up to 24/176.4 and 24/192). When this happens it will require a hardware upgrade-the USB receiver board will have to be replaced with a new board. I suspect that this upgrade (if and when it is available) will require a return to Ayre through your dealer.
barrows
MacBook, Pure Music, 4 G RAM-bel canto CD1-Modded DLIII-Ayre K5xeMP-Pass X 150.5-Focus Audio FS888-
DIY Parallel AC Filter-PS Audio Modded P-300 @ 90 Hz-DIY power cables-Nordost Frey Audio Cables
1. Per Charlie Hansen, there will probably be upgrades to the QB-9 to upgrade to higher than 96k, but it is dependent on the code being perfected by Gordon Rankin at Wavelength. Apparently the upgrades will have a cost based upon when you bought the DAC, i.e. the later you bought it, the less it will cost. My suggestion now is don't worry about it, you have a great sounding DAC which is easy to set up and can be upgraded soon if necessary.
2. Your dealer is correct in my experience. Not only is Ayre among the best companies for customer service around, but in fact, Mr. Hansen is very often found here or on AA responding to questions about his products. Like his products or not, few in the industry (Taffel the Turkey aside) think of him as one of the top designers in audio. I'm not going to get into the whole story out of respect for privacy, but if you know his recent history, he is even that much more impressive. You bought a DAC from a very high end company for a pittance. Enjoy it, you can upgrade if the time comes, but you may never need to.
I have no connection to Ayre (or Wavelength) except respect for a job well done.
G5 PowerMac 1.6Ghz, 4 GB RAM, 2 Internal Seagate 7200 RPM 1TB HDs / Lynx AES16 PCI / Gotham Audio 110 Ohm Digital IC / Berkeley Audio Alpha DAC / Cardas Cross IC / Musical Fidelity KW 750 / Cardas Cross / Magnepan MG 3.6r / Custom purpose built listening room
Chris, thanks for thorough review. I have this one short-listed for sure.
I do not understand (at all!) how the $2500 translates to a local €2700 though. Current FX rates put it at UNDER €1700. Can someone pls. tell me what additional costs and profits are covered by this 59% cost increase over the US price?
A consequential thought.. I can buy a used Macmini Intel, duo core (€350) + external 1.5Tb disk (€ 100) + a Weiss DAC2 (€2200) for the price of the QB-9 in the Netherlands..
Other folks thanks for the compare to Weiss DAC2 and Bryston. Hope to have my private shootout in the near future. Need to get that d@rn listening room finished. (C, how did you get yours finished so soon...!)
NB. Q: "If FLAC, you can use other programs to do the conversion. Max, I believe, and perhaps XLD, not sure, as I've not converted FLAC." A: MAX converts both WAV to AIFF and FLAC to AIFF. It can also chew CUE files and cut a single FLAC or WAV files into individual AIFF tracks, with all the data tagging done by MAX using the CUE file data AND auto import it into iTunes. Chris added a nice video on using MAX..
link: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Step-Step-Video-WAV-AIFF-MAX
Cheers,
Hans
QNAP 439 (raid5) → MacMini (PureMusic, iTunes, AIFF) → HiFace (BNC) → BADA → KAV280p → Nemo's → Hales T8
Hi Hans,
I just wanted to respond to your question re imported goods from the US to other countries. I cannot respond directly for Ayre specifically, but in general as to how most audio companies distribute products in foreign countries.
In the US, audio products are usually sold directly to dealers from the manufacturer. The manufacturer takes on the costs of marketing, service, etc. So domestically US products are subject to one mark up by the dealer. Internationally, a US product is sold to a distributor-the Distributor has the following additional costs (other than the purchase price of the product form the US manufacturer): overseas shipping, VAT and Import taxes/duties, marketing expenses in the associated country, and the cost of providing service/warranties. Then the distributor sells the product to a dealer. So foreign products are subject to two steps of markups, and the additional costs that are associated with running the distributorship.
BTW, in the US we pay a premium for audio products produced in Europe for the same reasons, although the premium we pay for European products is not as high, because we do not have as high taxes on imported goods as European countries have. Oh, i just remembered one additional expense of distributing US products in Europe: CE certification. I believe CE certification is necessary for products in Europe, getting this certification is another additional expense.
barrows
MacBook, Pure Music, 4 G RAM-bel canto CD1-Modded DLIII-Ayre K5xeMP-Pass X 150.5-Focus Audio FS888-
DIY Parallel AC Filter-PS Audio Modded P-300 @ 90 Hz-DIY power cables-Nordost Frey Audio Cables
Been lurking for a week plus & this is my first post I believe.
Just pulled the trigger & bought one of these from the local dealer. Should arrive in my part of the world sometime next week.
I'm intrigued by the posts & comments from this forum. Will definitely do some comparison with my current setup. I have been using computer as source since 2004. My setup until the beginning of this year was :
Hardware
1) PC - Zalman TNN500 Pentium 4 based Windows XP system
2) USB out to Apogee Digital Big Ben modded by Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio :
i) M-Audio transit transplanted into the Big Ben
ii) power supply mod etc.
3) Audionote 1.1 kit DAC modded :
i) Vacuumstate HV shunt regulated power supply
ii) DAC 1.2 output board
iii) Async reclocking on the CS8412 receiver
4) DIY Vacuum State FVP based linestage
5) Rives Audio PARC room correction unit
5) DIY Transcendent Sound T8 OTL
6) DIY BR Mitsubishi Diatone MB610MB full range with helper tweeter & a sub woofer
7) Power Conditioning include :
i) Exactpower something15
ii) PS Audio PS300 - 2 units
Since April of this year, I made to make some changes to the system mostly due to equipment failure :
1) The PC & transit developed some problem - had to replace them with :
i) new PC Zalman TNN300 running core 2 duo
ii) Empirical Audio Off Ramp 3 with ultra clock & Paul Hynes power supply
2) The PARC also failed & now waiting for me to send it all the way to the States for repair
3) PS Audio & Exact power also failed - PS been repaired but failed again. Exactpower still waiting on spare parts till now
i) no replacement for the PARC
ii) bought Purepower 2000 power conditioner
Software
1) all song files ripped using EAC in wav
2) Foobar 0.8.3 or something like that
3) bypass kmixer
I will insert the Ayre to substitute the Empirical Offramp, Big Ben & Audio Note. Let's see it compares.
BTW, I really like the current setup now. I have tried more expensive DAC (factory AN2.1) but it failed to impress me.
I'm also starting to investigate the USB cable between PC & converter. Bought a short length of normal grade wire to compare with my current no name 5m piece with power lead disconnected somewhere along the cable. The original use of this configuration was to power the transit with an external 5V supply & not the supply from the PC. Off Ramp has no need for the 5V supply so the exetrnal power supply was simply disconnected.
Will report back in a couple of weeks.
Regards,
Joe Ling
Island of Borneo
Wow, this is a great site!!
Burning in the Ayre now. Amarra arrives today. Sadly, work raised its ugly head and I was unable to take the day off to play. Well tomorrow will have to do.
Thanks for passing along news of the QB-9 upgrade path. Great news that it's dealer installed. Let's hope it comes out by 17 Jan. LOL. That's my 90th day. Of course, if even later, it appears Ayre does stay reasonable on the upgrades.
TGIF,
Matt
MacBook Pro Laptop / Drobo / Amarra / Ayre QB-9 / Control w/ another MacBook Pro (screen sharing) or iPhone w/ "Remote."
I think its cool with the upgrade, albeit the price model does make me kinda regret being a first mover. :)
On the other hand, I have enjoyed it every day for about 8 hours (use it at work) since june.
One thing though. Its not like its floating about with hi res recordings, so ...
Does anyone know the output impedance of the QB-9?
Thanks.
Hi msjjr - Did you check the manual?
http://www.ayre.com/pdf/Ayre_QB-9_Manual.pdf
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Hi Chris. I did, but either it isn't there, or I'm blind. :)
Regards, Mike
Ayre usually lists this in their manuals. Look on the page that shows the specs. Usually most Ayre stuff is 50 ohms per phase: which translates to 50 ohms for single ended and 100 ohms for balanced.
barrows
MacBook, Pure Music, 4 G RAM-bel canto CD1-Modded DLIII-Ayre K5xeMP-Pass X 150.5-Focus Audio FS888-
DIY Parallel AC Filter-PS Audio Modded P-300 @ 90 Hz-DIY power cables-Nordost Frey Audio Cables
Thanks barrows.
So I borrowed this unit from my local high-end store and compared it to the Bryston DAC. Frankly, I don't understand the hype. I cannot hear any difference whatsoever. Only distinction I can find is that the Bryston seems to be more faithful. Plus, the Bryston already handles higher sampling rate without an upgrade. Why does everyone have a hardon over this unit?
Don't take offense, but maybe the issue is you or your system instead of everyone else.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
That's cold.
I tried them both and I chose the Bryston as well. :)
- Paul
Hi Paul - Not trying to be cold or rude. Preferences are preferences and each person selects the components that please them (hopefully).
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
I think my hearing is pretty good even though I am getting on in years and, although I can't afford esoteric high-end gear, my Simaudio i5.3 and DALI Helicon 400s do a very nice job of reproducing music. I was truly interested in the Ayre and, given the glowing review, thought I would hear a distinct improvement over the Bryston (also well reviewed here last year). As noted in another comparison on this site, the Bryston sounds more accurate to me. Also seemed to deliver a slightly fuller sound stage. That said, I am by no means an audio expert and, as you point out, it's all about what you like, not what others tell you to like.
Hi dsbourque - Thanks for the reply. No offense taken.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Folks,
Interesting twist (for those still trying to decide).... :-)
For all folks that compared & favoured the Bryston over the Ayre: what digital interface did you use to feed the Bryston? Sounds like a sensible question (to me), given the jitter argument of asynchronous USB versus various types of SPDIF (and adaptive USB)...
Thanks & keep up the discussion!
Hans
QNAP 439 (raid5) → MacMini (PureMusic, iTunes, AIFF) → HiFace (BNC) → BADA → KAV280p → Nemo's → Hales T8
Gang,
There are two key things you really need to set to make sure the QB-9 reaches it's full potential.
One like most solid state components this needs to be powered up all the time.
Second because of the MP filters I and others have found that any upsampling done by the computer will have a negative effect on the output. In other words make sure your sample rate displayed on the QB-9 is the same as the sample rate of the track.
This of course would be easy with XP, Amarra and Twilight. With Vista or iTunes an internal upsampler will keep the QB-9 from really shinning.
Thanks
Gordon
J. Gordon Rankin
~~~~~~~~~~
Wavelength Audio
http://www.usbdacs.com/
http://www.wavelengthaudio.com/
http://www.guitar-engines.com/
In his post, Gordon says that like most solid state components the QB-9 needs to be turned on all the time.
Gordon, is this true of your DACs given their solid state and tube aspects?
Second, you note that the sample rates must be kept the same and that this could stop the QB-9 from shining with iTunesbecause of internal up sampling. Can this be avoided if you change the midi settings for highrez files in iTunes or is there an internal up sampler that is always functioning?
The older I get, the less I know and the more I want to learn
I used only the Toslink on the Bryston.
Ray,
Can this be avoided if you change the midi settings for highrez files in iTunes or is there an internal up sampler that is always functioning?
You would have to close iTunes and change the sample rate equal to the rate of the next track you are playing. You cannot change the Audio Midi during an iTunes session as iTunes takes a snap shot of the output sample rate when executed and will resample any tracks that do not match these rates.
Or you could use Amarra or Twilight when it becomes available as both of these will change the sample rate on the fly.
Thanks
Gordon
J. Gordon Rankin
~~~~~~~~~~
Wavelength Audio
http://www.usbdacs.com/
http://www.wavelengthaudio.com/
http://www.guitar-engines.com/
Hans - when I did my comparison I truly thought both performed well on the jitter-prone USB inputs. That may not make alot of sense (the Ayre should have trounced the Bryston no?). There it is nonetheless. I had already purchased and installed the Lynx card in the G5 with the cable sourced from Redco. The comparison between the Ayre (usb only) and the Bryston run off the Lynx was really hands down for the Bryston for me, by a significant margin. Much more detailed, much more air on the top end. Mind you I don't find the Bryston "bright" I just find it "right." Sounds like ad. Ha. Anyway as I reported earlier, for me, the Ayre had a certain seductiveness on vocals but overall - to my ears - it sounded a bit closed in at the top. All this stuff is sooooo system dependent though. I had installed the Lynx card thinking I would likely have to shell out big bucks for the Weiss 2 or for the Berkley unit. Instead I wiggled the Bryston out of Audio Adviser as an open box unit which slashed more than $300 off the price. That's the not the kicker though - the kicker is that I'm still thrilled with the Bryston and am playing with uber-expensive cables to tune the system further. I've got Thiel 2.4s driven by bel canto monoblocks. I haven't tried Bryston gear all the way around but by way of a footnote I am aware that Thiel demos all their products with Bryston gear. The Thiels sound GREAT with the bel canto amplifiers though. The DAC is the first piece of Bryston gear I've owned. I was impressed with the build heft of the Bryston piece - not that that necessarily has any bearing on the quality of the sound but you KNOW when you handle the Bryston there's a BIG flat toroidal transformer in there. Read the lit on the Bryston. Try the two yourself - because as always your mileage may vary.
Toslink su*ks on everything IMHO.
What is Twilight? An Amarra alternative?
Scot
PowerMac G5 >> ART Legato >> Berkeley Alpha >> Système du Jour
"I might remind you that whilst your ears are on the side of your head mine are near the top and may well hear nuances that you cannot."
I thought maybe 'twilight' was a typo until he said it twice.
Gordon did mention that he had a version of an amarra competitor at RMAF, perhaps this is what he's referring to.
He also said previously that the guys at Audiofile Engineering prefer to keep it low key. Perhaps they are hoping to avoid some of the issues associated with bringing a product to market prematurely.
just my two cents,
clay
cough, cough ...you're correct... clear throat.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
I understand that Toslink has a less than stellar history and, therefore, reputation but also understand its limits have pretty much been overcome with the advent of better connectors, glass fiber etc. Suspect I'm missing something?
The Ayre will roll off the highest frequencies when set to the the "listen" position. It sounds like you might prefer the "measure" setting in your system. Did you use "listen" or "measure" in your auditioning?
I think it is important that anyone posting their listening impressions of a piece of gear note as many of the setup particulars as possible: system details, power conditioning used, cabling, and the settings on components that have adjustments-like the different filters on the Ayre QB-9.
barrows
MacBook, Pure Music, 4 G RAM-bel canto CD1-Modded DLIII-Ayre K5xeMP-Pass X 150.5-Focus Audio FS888-
DIY Parallel AC Filter-PS Audio Modded P-300 @ 90 Hz-DIY power cables-Nordost Frey Audio Cables
Hardware
1) PC - Zalman TNN300 Core 2 Duo based Windows XP system
2) USB out to Empirical Audio Offramp 3 powered by linear regulator from Paul Hynes
3) Apogee Digital Big Ben modded by Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio :
4) Audionote 1.1 kit DAC modded :
i) Vacuumstate HV shunt regulated power supply
ii) DAC 1.2 output board
iii) Async reclocking on the CS8412 receiver
5) DIY Vacuum State FVP based linestage
6) DIY Transcendent Sound T8 OTL (80W)
6) DIY BR Mitsubishi Diatone MB610MB full range with helper tweeter & a sub woofer
7) Power Conditioning include :
i) Purepower 2000
ii) PS Audio PS300
Software
1) all song files ripped using EAC in wav
2) Foobar 0.8.3 or something like that
3) bypass kmixer
4) Running in 16bit no upsampling mode with soft ATH dithering
Setup
1) Inserted the QB-9 in place of the EA Offramp, Big Ben & Audionote
2) QB-9 rear panel switch mostly in 'listen' position
3) No warmup no break-in
In the 'listen' position, the system with the Ayre sounded so spacious & airy. The soundstage seemed to extend beyond the boundaries of the speakers at times. Real eye opening. Although this is a solid state unit, the presentation of the music is so very lush, more like tubes than my tubed AN DAC. Bass was plentiful & taut. Quite nice.
However, not all is good. The perceived wider soundstage also resulted in a loss of image in the center. The vocals in the middle was not so well defined. In addition, I felt a little irritated after listening to this DAC for a little while. No sure what's happening there. Switched back to the old setup & the unease went away. Hmmm, cannot explain what happened.
In the 'measure' position, the soundstage collapsed a little but the vocals in the center became more focused. Didn't spend too much with this configuration.
Music genre were mostly Mandarin Audiophile female vocals.
Regards,
Joe Ling
"...No[t] sure what's happening there. Switched back to the old setup & the unease went away. Hmmm, cannot explain what happened."
Hi Joe - Most likely this is because we like what we are used to. This is true for most of us in this wonderful hobby :~)
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophile
Barrows,
You're right. Recent article in German mag showed this roll off to be 2 to 3dB.. If you can show me a room with a response curve (at listening location & full range) that is within that 3dB, I will eat my shoe..... :-)
Cheers,
Hans
NB.1. + you need good ears...
QNAP 439 (raid5) → MacMini (PureMusic, iTunes, AIFF) → HiFace (BNC) → BADA → KAV280p → Nemo's → Hales T8
Well, left it switched on for the whole day but without any music signal. Fiddled with the foobar setting. I was using Directsound 2.0 with audio devices unmapped previously. Decided to read the manual & the online setup guide after reading the latest edition of the HK magazine Audio Technique where there is a nice review & some pictorials of the setup process. Hmm, the ASIO driver did make a difference. Soundstage still wide but more focused than the day before. Still take some getting use to though.
Regards,
Joe Ling
I posted this in the regular forum about this DAC, but I think it's super-critical to let the QB-9 break-in fully before making any judgments. IMHO, this DAC is damn near unlistenable for the first 100 hours. It sounds ok after 200 hours. Somewhere between 200 and 300 hours is when it really starts to settle down. I personally observed this during regular visits to my dealer when they first got their floor sample, and it's been consistent with my own unit.
If you can, I'd listen to something else and just leave the QB-9 playing something on repeat for at least 10 days straight. I had the benefit of family staying with me for 10 days, so I just let mine play Ayre's disc of glide tones 24x7. I'm sure regular music will suffice as well. ;-)
regardless of the room, the QB-9 will have more high frequency energy with the "measure" filter, and less with the "listen" filter. My point is that the room is remaining the same in either case, right?
barrows
MacBook, Pure Music, 4 G RAM-bel canto CD1-Modded DLIII-Ayre K5xeMP-Pass X 150.5-Focus Audio FS888-
DIY Parallel AC Filter-PS Audio Modded P-300 @ 90 Hz-DIY power cables-Nordost Frey Audio Cables
Good to hear that it will get better after 10 days. Break-in is a pain. After 10days, probably the polestar will arrive & then another xxx days of break-in. Sign...
Regards,
Joe Ling
Malaysia
This DAC has the most glowing review yet most people seem to have issues with it. What gives?
I'm not sure where you're reading about issues about the QB-9. Just because it's a well-reviewed DAC, doesn't mean it's the be-all and end-all, and that the whole world needs to love it. Some people prefer the Bryston, some people might never care for the sound of the QB-9. Big deal. Others, like me, have commented on long break-in time (hardly uncommon in audio components.)
Genuine question what components are there in a dac, that have to 'break in', caps form in milliseconds, most components degrade from the moment you switch them on, I would genuinely like to hear opinions.
Keith.
http://www.puriteaudio.co.uk/
If it's a genuine question this is from the manual:
"Due to the manufacturing processes used for the printed circuit boards, wires, and capacitors, a break-in period is necessary for the USB D/A converter to reach its full performance potential."
If you're just here to pick a fight on the concept, please just pop a beer and watch the pre-game show instead. It is something one believes...or doesn't.
MacBook Pro Laptop / Drobo / Amarra / Ayre QB-9 / Control w/ another MacBook Pro (screen sharing) or iPhone w/ "Remote."
Belief is best saved for church Big H, I really would prefer some facts, I hear this nonsense alot 50 hours for a cd player to break in, more like running down the time the dealer allows for you to return the machine, for a refund!
Keith.
http://www.puriteaudio.co.uk/
Ah, so you did just feel like jousting with windmills. Believe whatever you want... No one cares either way. You pretended to want info and I posted what was in the Ayre manual. What else is there to say? You are debating the concept of "DAC break-in" so why don't you start a thread on the issue in the DAC forum and not hijack this discussion on the Ayre and its attributes.
MacBook Pro Laptop / Drobo / Amarra / Ayre QB-9 / Control w/ another MacBook Pro (screen sharing) or iPhone w/ "Remote."
That naivety in children is charming but less so in adults, I really wouldn't believe everything a manufacturer or dealer tells you, without question.
http://www.puriteaudio.co.uk/
You are right BH, wrong thread, I do really believe that it is only in those first few minutes that you can actually hear the 'differences' in a new product, before you hearing becomes accustomed to it.
Keith.
http://www.puriteaudio.co.uk/
.. But I have the QB-9 and there is definately a break in period. The first 50 hours it sounded bad, but then it began to get better and better, and after around 300 hours it stabilised.
This is not a question of belief or snake oil. This is my genuine experience.
It's quite possible that this is due to "getting used to the sound", but I don't think so. On the other hand, one shouldnt really judge ones own state of mind :)
Most, if not all, audiophiles have "proved" that break in is a factor with many components including DACs for themselves. Do you believe that a car needs break in to perform its best? If you choose to disregard that break is a factor in audio component performance you are missing out on fairly evaluating the component.
Consider that electrons are particles that have mass, moving through (or vibrating) in an environment that also has mass. Is it really that hard for you to conceive that a component would require a break in period to settle down and perform as it was designed to?
Back to the QB-9, in my experience, Ayre components definitely respond to an extended break in period with better sound, out of the box they can sound hard and steely in the upper midrange, and a little closed in at even higher frequencies. Some components also respond more with more/better low bass with break in. I would not consider critical listening to a new component without a couple of hundred hours of playing time on it.
barrows
MacBook, Pure Music, 4 G RAM-bel canto CD1-Modded DLIII-Ayre K5xeMP-Pass X 150.5-Focus Audio FS888-
DIY Parallel AC Filter-PS Audio Modded P-300 @ 90 Hz-DIY power cables-Nordost Frey Audio Cables