Antelope Isochrone + ULN8/Model 4

Silverlight I've been waiting for someone to externally clock the ULN-8 and report what they heard. This is cool to see so I have to thank you much for posting. I've read endlessly about external vs. internal clocking theory so I'm not making statements to argue or start a war about theory. I know theoretically external clocks add more jitter but from what I've researched and understand the amount of jitter clocking externally adds is so small that it's completely outweighed by the result of the sum of its parts just as we've discussed DAC design. I go with what I hear, and I'm extremely picky. My picky ears like what my master clock does very much so and from what I've seen some of the external clocks out there are simply better updated designs compared to many internal clocks being used currently. I'm a believer in external clocking via as short a BNC cable as possible (I've done comparisons with 3 meter vs. 1 meter with a noticeable change in quality for the better with 1M but I'd like to try one that's around 10" long for another comparison. Even Dan Lavry recommends the shorter the better with BNC. I use the Black Lion Microclock MKII master clock; a fantastic piece alone but a steal @ $475. It's cheap because it only has 3 outputs & a small basic stainless steel chassis vs. the 8+ outputs and fancy cases you see on most pro clocks. I'm going to order a linear supply for it in the near future. The company is small and humble focusing on quality for the audiophile and recording engineers without the expenses of a major one. They redesigned the Digidesign 192 box used for Pro Tools HD recording from the ground up and are using it at Black Bird Studios in Nashville. They compared their redesigned interface with top converters like Apogee and Lavry Gold and preferred the Black Lion redesign. Geoff I've recently changed setups (not on purpose) temporarily (couple months) so the Microclock is not in use. If you are at all willing I'll be glad to send it to you for a comparison to the Antelope. Also check this video out on youtube, a couple of different audio reviewers (one of them being Jay from 6moons) listening to the ULN-8 slaved to the Antelope Trinity + 10M combo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYQISlowE6A So when are you going to step up to this ? ;) jokes

Hey David - you joke, but after the improvement I've heard tonight with the OCX, it's damn tempting to add the 10M....
I just finished listening to some hi res 192 and 176 material. it's just incredible what this clock has done to transform the sound. Now that my ears are / have adjusted, its quite remarkable. It really has transformed the experience - the instruments just sound more darn real, and I'm hearing the space of the recording site/location like I never have before.
I went with a 3' BNC cable also with the idea to keep it as short as possible. Had you done some research into your BNC cable selection? I just went with the Apogee b/c that's the best one I saw at Sweetwater.
Thank you for the kind offer to test the Black Lion, I'll PM you follow up.
Best,
Geoff

Silverlight -- how are you wiring this thing in? I thought the MH was "best" with FW directly off the computer?

It's not a pass-through of the digital audio signal like the Antelope DA (reclocker), it's just a master clock that provides a word clock source for the ULN8. Just need one wire (75 ohm BNC cable from the OCX's word clock out to the ULN8's word clock in). Then in the ULN8's software interface you tell it to switch from Internal word clock source to external word clock. As mentioned, if you're using the BADA, you'd definitely want to go the route of the Antelope DA as it will auto sample rate change I believe (and the BADA doesn't have a word clock input, a topic discussed quite a bit on this forum in a while back).

My understanding is that the pass-thru AES interfaces on the DA don't actually de-jitter anything -- according to the Antelope guys, it's just a buffer, which I suppose could be very helpful if the source has a lot of jitter (eg, a computer). Given the rave reviews of the DA, my assumption (which received a shrug when I mentioned it in conversation with the Antelope guys, but admittedly, not with the designer whom would actually know) is that anything in the buffer then must be clocked out again, but this time, using their rather superior clock. However, it could well be a FIFO buffer, with no clocking whatever. No idea, but worth finding out.

I would think that, via Firewire with the Metric Halo set as sync source, the MH local clock should outperform an external clock. In this configuration the MH should be an isochronous system slaving the computer data rate to the MH clock. Having the controlling clock right next to the DA converters should offer higher performance than an external clock. Can someone comment on the quality of the Metric Halo clocks?

Thanks,
Alan

Alan, in my experience and many others, once you've heard a good external clock the theory just goes out the window. This became clear to me when I clocked a DAC with acclaimed great jitter performance externally and went whoa! From what I understand (Gordon or others please chime in if need be) internal clocks theoretically perform better from STRICTLY a jitter standpoint. We are talking picoseconds here. As we've discussed before with DACs the result in sound is the sum of its parts, not just one particular implementation. A.r.t says clocking via Word Clock, the majority of external clocking methods used, greatly reduces jitter in itself. From what Dan Lavry has said most manufacturers just don't spend nearly enough time if any on the implementation of the internal clock; they use something with good specs on paper, throw it in and say voila! Look at what Gordon has said very recently about the Sabre chip used at CES with many well known companies claiming they have great designs with low jitter but after speaking with them about their implementation said umm not quite. So basically why people are getting great results with external clocking is due to the fact that most internal clocking even with great converters is not up to snuff with the rest of the design. You could get a tiny amount of jitter more with the external clock compared to the exact same design of an internal one, but if superior to the internal one it renders that tiny amount of jitter obsolete when the result in sound simply speaks for itself. I know I've been guilty of it but I think we've become way too hung up on internal vs. external when in reality designers need to step it up and focus much more attention on an absolutely critical aspect of DAC architecture, the clocking.

said that the Anetlope Isochrone clock is beating the internal clocks of every DAC he uses, including Digital Audio Denmark AX24 , etc. Big $$$ DACs. Dunno, but David's explanation (and Geoff's obvious feedback) seem to point to something magical about external clocking...even a $1k clock.

The question becomes: are these "obvious" changes, like the soundstage taking a "massive outward leap", etc. improvements or simply changes.

Very often I find certain devices result in what might initially appear to be "added detail" but in the long run, proves to be added distortion as the "new" sonics are not contained in the source material but are generated as a result of the device.

One easy hint is when a characteristic of the sound is noticed on all recordings. In my experience, more often than not, this is a coloration as the preponderance of masters I've heard all sound very different from each other. The converse of course, is that the device that reveals the greatest differences between recordings tends to be the more neutral one.

I wonder about the switch back to the "ULN-8" (by the way, is it a ULN-8, from Metric Halo or a Model 4, from Sonic? they are the same and they are not the same, as Sonic modifies the software) sounding "veiled and flatter by comparison" and if it is a function of comparing something that is "brighter, etc." by comparison. I'm not saying this is the case as I have not heard the comparison myself. But there is a phenomenon, well known to mastering engineers, that I call "getting lost in A/B Land", where comparing a bright source with a neutral one makes the neutral one sound "dull" by comparison.

Further the comment that "the changes noted above certainly have the potential of becoming a little fatiguing" is something I'd be curious to hear a follow-up on in time. Personally, I've never heard a true increase in neutrality to suggest, much less become, fatiguing.

My experience so far with external clocks has been that they help when the internal clock is bad. With a good internal clock, the best they can do is equal the sound and more often than not, they don't.

But... personal preference and sensibilities may also come into play.
I know some folks have talked about third-party power supplies for the '8 too and what I've heard so far has either been a degradation of the stock supply or at the very best, to my ears, the equal (i.e. not detectable difference - other than an extra, large box at extra expense).

I'd be very curious to hear a device that improves what I see as the already quite impeccable clock in B.J.'s design.

Looking forward to hearing more comments as the hours spent with the device increase.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

Couple of thoughts Barry. Now having spent some time with the Antelope in use, is that it's definitely not fatiguing in any way. It was just such a meaningful change that I needed to acclimate. My first post was deliberately overly-balanced, which is my general approach to things. I don't make strong statements unless I really mean it :) What I'd say about soundstage now is that the music is far more immersive and live ("you're there" sound), but that gets me to the second point, and you touch on it. The degree of change in the sound has varied widely with the music source (this is very different than my experience with another popular leading DAC I had where I noticed a HF characteristic and sounstage expansion that was consistent and always there and less natural in comparison to the ULN8 but a sound signature that many people like). A few albums had very little difference while others were enormous. I have 100% conviction that adding the clock has dramatically improved my personal listening experience, and when I switch back (either A/B, or after an hour and go over the same songs), I'm really missing something. So can report it's no longer a first impression for me. I'm giddy-excited to get the 10M atomic clock hooked up tonight to see if it has further impact, and will post feedback.

Hi Geoff,

So is the 10M a replacement for the Antelope OCX or does it work in conjunction with the OCX? Thanks for sharing your experience with the OCX. Might be my next upgrade. Seeing that we have the same speakers, it's fun to see your experiences with the various upgrades you are trying out.

So no Cary preamp in the chain anymore?

-Chris

Barry - wanted to also say that you know how much I love the ULN8/Model4 and BJ is definitely in the genius category for this. The comments I've made about the impact on the clock are in no way meant as constructive. They're purely there to share the exciting possibilities of a high quality external clock with this or any other DAC with a word clock input. Between these two clock devices, I think I've invested over $7k, which exceeds the cost of the DAC itself (which by itself shouldn't be taken as an indicator, but perhaps that suggests the possibility of better clocks being available than what's built into the DAC's we all use, implementation aside and another matter entirely as discussed above).

Hi Geoff,

"Couple of thoughts...

Certainly sounds like an interesting development.
I hope I get to hear this some time.

Please keep us posted on further listening.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

@Barry - thanks, will do!

@ Chris - good to hear from you, and hope you're enjoying the F300's! The OCX works in conjunction with the 10M. The OCX has an atomic clock input on the back. In it's presence, it will then switch to or slave to the Rubidium clock instead of using it's internal crystal clock (pls don't ask me the physics behind it...).
Best,
Geoff

" the Anetlope Isochrone clock is beating the internal clocks of every DAC he uses, including Digital Audio Denmark AX24 , etc. Big $$$ DACs. Dunno, but David's explanation (and Geoff's obvious feedback) seem to point to something magical about external clocking...even a $1k clock."

damn, just when I thought the budget was about to recover. :)

And if I understand the setup configuration, this device has no chance of making it's improvements by reducing AC or other types of noise (as with the Antelope DA).

clay

Well, have spent an hour listening to the Isochrone OCX with the 10M added to the mix. I don't even know where to start. I had to leave the room just to write this and walk off my reaction (I'm even loving the heck out of recordings I'd put in the bucket of lower quality, where I'm actually able to hear the artist or instrument emerge realistically from the compressed bits and bytes). The change is immediate, and it's big. No need to keep describing. I LOVE this hobby....

You're killing me here. You know that don't you :)

"The change is immediate, and it's big. No need to keep describing."

Group buy, anyone?

clay

And they look decent too... (trying to embed or attach image, hopefully will work...)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4027/4344509911_07158e1828_o.jpg

Wait till you hear the ULN8/Model 4 + Antelope 10M Atomic Clock + Circular electron accelerator ( I DIY'd from an old Rega turntable) -easy- just toss the 1's and 0's in

Jaw dropping. ;)

Geoff, I know that John Hughes from VRS uses the OCX and 10M with his ULN-8/Model 4 and I recall him telling me they made a nice improvement. Would be cool if Barry could try the combo so he could weigh in with his impressions...any chance of you two reuniting for a demo? This also heightens my interest in the soon to be released Antelope Zodiak DAC line, especially the top of the line which will sport a very well designed analog output stage with volume control.

A good idea. I'll try to get sync'd up (pardon the pun) with Barry at some point at one of our places.

No surprise at all that you were overwhelmed by the OCX+10M combo because I had that same experience when I came over to my friend's place about 2 months ago. He had an OCX+10M feeding his RME ADI-8 QS and RME souncards. The soundstage was at least doubled in depth with the addition of the OCX and further doubled with the addition of the 10M. More significant was that the improvement of the 10M is not only a matter of quatity but actual improvement of quality in terms of details, tone colour, timbre of instruments, image everything. Everything was so right that we thought it couldn't be better. And we tried the combo on my Prismsound Orpheus and we get a similar result. So I have to surrender and buy the Antelope clock but instead of buying the OCX+10M I decided to buy the Trinity+10M because it is said to be the fourth generation running on 64bits and can go up to 384. When my clocks arrive a month later I took the Trinity to my friend's place and did an AB of the Trinity+10M to OCX+10M. To all our surprise the Trinity+10M brought us to an even higher level that is as significant as what we initially experience by adding a 10M to the OCX. As a result my friend has to upgrade his OCX to a Trinity. That was only last month when all these happen to us here in Hong Kong. Although we are not using Metri Halo or Amarra I believe the RME and the Prismsound are of comparable quality so I just share our experience here on this thread.

One more experience to share is the BNC clock cable. This is very important. We have tested Apogee, Cordial, Acoustic Zen and Oyaide and also the ordinary cheap stuffs. Our conclusion is that one cannot save here and we strongly advise using pure silver BNC cables. The Oyaide silver coaxial cable together with the pure silver BNC plugs also from Oyaide is excellent and also has good cost performance ratio(about US$120 for a 1 metre). I only use 1m and 1.5m. The Acoustic Zen BNC cable is also good but more expensive and has a character of its own and should not use too many in the setup. Tha Apogee is only fair in comparison to these silver cables because it can only achieve a result of only abouy half of what one can get from these silver cables. You've got to try it out !! Cheers!!

That's great additional feedback. I was wondering about the Trinity vs OCX sound quality and was being told by a couple folks no difference but this probably just reflects their assessment of the comparative spec sheets in the context of 2 ch audio playback.

You described the sonic improvement of both units very well. Its a massive improvement in soundstage, but the shear realism and accuracy / improvement in tonal quality of instruments, voice is really remarkable and quite surprising. It really blows me away what redbook CD is capable of now!

I will track down some silver BNC cables as I figured this would probably be a weak link in the current setup.

Appreciate the suggestions!

I cannot, and would not presume, to deny all of these listening results, but they do make me very curious as to what is really going on here-a well designed Firewire interface, with a decently designed clock circuit, should achieve jitter levels in the 2 digit range (of pS). The Antelope products (OCX and Trinity) appear to use a digital synthesizer to generate the appropriate frequency (with either an internal crystal, or the external 10M for reference). My understanding of digital clock synthesizers is that they are not all that accurate, regardless of what they use for a reference. I could be wrong with my understanding of how the Antelope clocks work-their website is not entirely forthcoming, and required some "reading between the lines" on my part to come to my understanding. Considering the the losses in transmission of the clock signal through transmitter and receiver circuits, cable, and connectors-it is hard to fathom that lower jitter comes from using an external clock-unless the internal clocks in the ULN8 and Orpheus are not that well implemented(??)
I would love to hear the thoughts of some engineers on this subject, like Gordon and Pat.
As to cables, at this level of refinement, I would expect the clock cable to make a big difference-pure silver might not matter though (vs. silver plated copper) as a high frequency clock signal is all going to be carried on the skin of the conductor anyway, an air dialectric might help though (like Nordost Silver Shadow).

Silverlight -- thanks for sharing here!

We are a dealer for Antelope, so I'll keep this fact-based. I spoke with Antelope this past week, and they feel the best combination is the 10M + Trinity. (This shouldn't be surprising, since these are their flagship products.) The Trinity has a USB connection to allow you to control the clock from your computer via a console application. At present, the sample rate must be changed manually (either on the front panel of the unit or via the application). I explained to them that this is an issue for computer audiophiles that listen to music with different sample rates. And they are working on an update to their software application to link into Amarra and thereby have the clock switch rates automatically. They indicated this update may happen fairly soon (2-3 months), but of course, there can never be any guarantees. I, for one, am hoping this will happen soon.

Sanjay

what's the availability for their new Zodiac DACs?

I believe the Zodiac Gold or Plus will likely be my next DAC. Sweetwater has the basic model listed on their site, but with unknown availability.

any information on arrival would be great
clay

Sanjay - that's great news! based on earlier feedback I've already got an OCX to Trinity swap this week for sonic reasons and this makes me feel even better. The software is effectively a remote control now, but auto clock rate switching by Amarra is brilliant. thx for the update.

All three models of the Zodiac should be available very soon, from what I've been told. I already have the price list in hand and will be placing orders this week. I would expect delivery in a few weeks, but can confirm with you if you like.

Sanjay, I think it would be great if you could confirm accurate availability dates for the various Zodiak models as I have seen some posts out there that inferred that the basic model was still 3 months out and that the Plus and Gold were further out yet. Thanks.

@earflappin

I'd be happy to do so. I'll get a definite answer this week and come back. Please remind me if I forget to post.

Sanjay,

I too would be interested in hearing the release dates on the Zodiac's.

James

re: the standard Zodiac (as posted earlier, they have it on their website). It doesn't have a clock input, but the alert will be some indication of Antelope's DAC production readiness regardless.

This was posted by another poster recently here on CA regarding the availability of the Zodiak DAC's:

"Just a disappointing update on the Antelope Zodiac DAC. I was going to try the Zodiac Plus model out through Sweetwater and their original release date was early January. I was excited to be honest and wanted to post a review here on CA. A Sweetwater rep contacted me recently and said Antelope had pushed back the release of the Basic model to June. The Plus and Gold models would not be released at the same time as the Basic but did not have info on a specific time frame. Bummer."

but since Sanjay seemed to have newer, more inside info I thought I'd post that I just registered for an instock email notifcation...to see if the new info comes true or not.

I just re-confirmed with our contact at Antelope. The Zodiac Plus will is expected to ship March 1st. The Zodiac Gold is targeted to ship May 1. Let me know if we can be helpful. Happy listening.

Thanks for the update Sanjay. That's a bit sooner than others had inferred....good news. Has anyone heard the Zodiac yet who can share some impressions? I have yet to see anyone post any listening impressions. Personally, given Antelope's prowess in clocking technology I have high hopes for their line of DAC's. One of the things I like about the line is that you aren't forced to buy a bunch of capabilities that you don't need as a 2 channel audiophile - which you do with the ULN-8/Model 4 and Orpheus for example. Also, I like that they build in a Trinity class clock. Anyway, I'll stay tuned.

Best,
David

How the heck could anyone have heard how it sounds??

From what I understand it's been making the trade show rounds for the past 6 months or so. A couple of appearances in European shows and a couple in the U.S. Vincent at VRS did an evaluation last fall in his setup next to the Model 4. His comments to me were that it was very good, and insanely good for the price. In relative terms he felt the Model 4 was better although not a large margin, and this was against the prototype of the basic model (which at the time had pricing expectations sub $1k by a margin).

Having the trinity clock in it at it's price range is amazing. Having just added the Trinity this week, it really opened up another layer of transparency.

Geoff, thanks for the further comments. Ted_b, normally audio companies will circulate review samples of equipment before they commence volume shipments. This way they can get some positive buzz out there and have reviewers ready to publish reviews just as they are ready to ship product. It sounds Vincent had a chance to hear such a unit.

Geoff, I agree that having the Trinity clock inside is very nice. I plan on immediately getting the Plus model so I can evaluate its DAC and use it to dejitter my Lynx AES/EBU output. It will be interesting to see how the final unit(s) stack up to the various competitors.

had some documented feedback from Vincent. He told me about it months ago (at the time i posted it could be $600), but thought it was purely due to hearsay.

From Antelope's website, it appears the differences among the 3 models relate to functionality, not sound quality. No differences are mentioned regarding digital clock, analog stage, etc.

The Gold has a stepped attenuator rather than the mystery attenuator in the Basic and Plus. The Gold also has an "optional" linear power supply.

Of course, if you use USB rather than S/PDIF, the Basic has a maximum 92 KHz sample rate.

Does anyone have further information on features intended to improve the sound quality as you move up from Basic to Plus to Gold?

"Does anyone have further information on features intended to improve the sound quality as you move up from Basic to Plus to Gold?"

Bob, as I understand it, only the two premium models have clock input, in the event one wants to add-on the 10M rubidium atomic clock, which provide improvements in sound quality when used in conjunction with the Isochrone models.

http://www.antelopeaudio.com/en/zodiac_rubicon.html

clay

Where does it say it can be used with the 10M? I asked their rep (Marcel?) about 8 months ago and he said the 10M could not be used with these new DACs. I was a bit shocked. Maybe something changed. I recently sold my OCX and 10M partly due to this.

Looking just at the spec's, doesn't look like they support a direct 10M / atomic input, just a word clock input. so, you'd have to add an OCX/Trinity and the 10M just to get the atomic clock feature. Maybe they've added the atomic input. Would be pretty cool feature...

"Where does it say it can be used with the 10M?"

The two premium models each have a word clock input. I thought this was all that was required - apparently I was incorrect, per Silverlight's comments.

bummer,

clay

Seems strange to me but no direct 10M and I am pretty sure he said no OCX, only Trinity?

After Geoff reminded me about the atomic input, I remembered that I'd read somewhere that atomic inputs would be available on some Zodiac models.

a quick Google, and voila...

http://www.soundonsound.com/news?NewsID=11429

clay

That's great news if the implement it (presumably it's a marketing and not technical issue). The 10M addition is really big. Just took the advice above and have some better quality BNC cables coming (a pair of Oyaide and Silver Shadow, short lengths as I can get away with), so will post on results (these and the Apogee cables).

I thought that they were coming out with a new clock called the Rubicon Atomic that would be used with the Zodiac models. I may be mistaken though..